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[LynneSin]

This message was self-deleted by its author (LynneSin) on Tue Oct 16, 2012, 11:54 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Historic NY]

1. its okay if your a white republican...

[madokie]

14. Thats it in a nutshell

If you are a white republicon rules that the rest of us have to live by don't apply to them.

[DonViejo]

30. Romney's birth certificate evokes his father's controversy

-snip-

Records in a George Romney archive at the University of Michigan describe how questions about his eligibility to be president surfaced almost as soon as he began his short-lived campaign.

In many ways, they appear to echo today's complaints that Trump and some other conservative "birthers" have made about Obama while questioning whether Obama - whose father was from Kenya and mother was from Kansas - was born in Hawaii.

In George Romney's case, most of the questions were raised initially by Democrats who cited the Constitution's requirement that only a "natural born citizen" can be president.

As early as February 1967 - a year before the first 1968 presidential primary - some newspapers were raising questions as to whether George Romney's place of birth disqualified him from the presidency.

By May 1967, U.S. congressman Emmanuel Celler, a Democrat who chaired the House of Representatives Judiciary Committee, was expressing "serious doubts" about George Romney's eligibility.

The next month, another Democratic congressman inserted a lengthy treatise into the Congressional Record in which a government lawyer - writing in a "personal capacity" - argued that George Romney was ineligible for the White House because he was born outside U.S. territory.

-snip-

Read more:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/us-usa-campaign-romney-birth-certificate-idUSBRE84S1GF20120529

[kentuck]

2. Good question.

I have wondered why no one has asked that?

[catbyte]

3. I think it's because both of his parents were American citizens

I think I remember that being the rationale. Plus he was clearly not Mexican. Or something.

[mucifer]

4. Yes, BUT if he was Mexican he'd have a better chance of winning the election

[FogerRox]

76. Gay and Mexican

[Barack_America]

8. Plus he was Republican.

No Democrat would be allowed to get away with this.

[LynneSin]

10. But I thought as long as one parent was a US Citizen then you are an American Citizen

Which means it wouldn't matter where Obama was born because Ann Durham was a US Citizen and never gave up her citizenship.

But since Barack was born in Hawaii doesn't matter anyways.

[dionysus]

27. ding...whichmkes the birther shit that much more stupid. even is he WAS born in kenya.. still

a US citizen. born on the moon... still a US citizen.. stupid birthers...

[City Lights]

34. Yup, that is my understanding as well. eom

[Recovered Repug]

83. Actually, that's not quite true.

There are requirements that the citizen parent must meet for the child to have US citizenship. Prior to 1986 they were:

1. The person's parents were married at the time of birth
2. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person was born
3. The citizen parent lived at least ten years in the United States before the child's birth;
4. A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.


Since Obama's mother was only 18 years old at the time of his birth, requirement #4 would not have been met. In theory, if Obama was born overseas he would not be considered a Natural Born Citizen and eligible to be president.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law

[HereSince1628]

5. The issue came down to George's parents not relinguishing US citizenship

It was a question and it never ended up challenged in court, but the consensus at the time was he was an American citizen.

[Barack_America]

6. It also means he should have "self-deported" by Mitt's immigration standards.

Did George Romney go through the necessary steps to even become a US citizen?

[jberryhill]

9. There were no "necessary steps"

George was born a US citizen.

[Barack_America]

21. I'm no expert on 1907 immigration law, but by todays' standards "steps" would need to be taken.

Hear me out.

It was George's grandparents (US citizens) who immigrated to Mexico. There, George's parents were born and lived until adulthood. Considering George's parents were born outside, and lived outside, the United States, under current immigration law, they would have to be naturalized to become citizens. So, under current definitions, they were not US citizens AND, therefore, George Romney could not automatically become a US citizen due to their status.

This is neither here, nor there, and I personally don't doubt that George Romney is a US citizen, but you KNOW that if this were Obama, we'd be hearing all about it.

On edit: after reading a different source about Gaskell Romney, it turns out he was born in Utah. So the point is ultimately moot.

[jberryhill]

25. Foreign colonies of "US citizens" was one of the reasons why it was changed

This type of situation is the reason why a US residency requirement was added for the first parents in the chain. It wasn't considered that big a deal until there were self-sustaining groups, like the Mexican and Canadian Mormon colonies, of successive generations of US citizens.

Of course it would be an issue if it were Obama. That is because there is no shortage of idiots.

[leveymg]

35. No. George's parents were US Citizens at the time of his birth, making George a USC.

Utah became a State in 1896. If the parents resided in Utah at that time, they became US Citizens by Act of Congress not by naturalization, which is a judicial or administrative procedure.

[Barack_America]

53. Looking into it further then, were the Romney's EVER US citizens?

Gaskell moved to Mexico with his father in 1885 according to Wikipedia.

And married Anna Amelia Pratt IN MEXICO in 1895 (one year before statehood)

http://www.our-genealogy.com/Latter-Day-Saint-Families/Romney-Family/ancestry-romney/gaskell_romney.htm

So they would not be US citizens by today's requirements unless they had become naturalized.

How the hell did the Romney's ever get citizenship at all if they were already in Mexico (and married adults) when Utah became a state?

Interesting.

[leveymg]

59. That's an interesting question. But, it's likely that anyone who was born in Utah became a USC

at the time of State accession. Look up the State Constitution, it's probably in there.

[treestar]

66. If George's parents were born and raised in Mexico

I don't think they could pass the citizenship onto their born-in-Mexico children. The US citizenship law is not that generous. The parents have to have lived a certain number of years in the US under a certain age.

[jberryhill]

7. What is up with that is...

...the various rules for being a US citizen at birth.

That's what's up with that.

For example, and one would have to look at the law in place at that time, for most of US history, the US has considered children born abroad to (a) US citizens who (b) resided in the US for some minimum time, to be US citizens. The reason for condition (b) is to cut off successive generations of non-US residents from propagating as US citizens.

The specific rules have changed from time to time, but where did you get the idea that Romney's grandparents had renounced their US citizenship?

[LynneSin]

17. I never said they renounced but that they fled the country so they could practice Polygamy

without US Government interference. A far cry from someone who had a parent stationed overseas or just happened to be visiting another country when the mother went into labor.

[jberryhill]

23. Okay, so the children of draft evaders who went to Canada are not US citizens?

The reason for their being outside of the country is irrelevant.

[LynneSin]

24. I started this post to understand

that's all

And if the children of draft dodgers born on Canadian soil were to run for president AND were democrats then there would be a huge stink.

[earthside]

29. Polygamy?

You mean traditional marriage, Mormon version, right?

[tanyev]

11. Because the GOP hadn't lost its fricking mind yet.

[leveymg]

12. "Native-born" US Citz means not Naturalized. Romney was born a USC, so no need.

It has nothing to do with where you are born if one or both parents are USC.

The whole "birther" thing is based in a legal fallacy.

[unc70]

26. George Romney not natural born

He became a citizen at birth, not by birth, under uniform rules for naturalization. If you are not born within the United States, all the other ways to citizenship are under the naturalization clause of the Constitution.

[leveymg]

31. USC by birth not conveyed under any "uniform rules for naturalization". Concepts are exclusive.

"Citizen by birth" is a term of art. There is no such thing as "citizenship at birth" under the US Immigration & Nationality Act.

Either you are a citizen by birth, by naturalization, or not a USC.

[unc70]

45. GR citizen by law, not natural born citizen by birth

George Romney was not a natural born citizen by birth within the United States. He was a citizen by laws enacted under the powers granted to Congress for naturalization.

[leveymg]

49. No. If he had been naturalized, he'd be a citizen by law. The INA may contain definitions, but does

not convey citizenship to naturally born citizens. That is an inherent and inalienable right under the Constitution as clarified by the 13th and 14th Amendments. Can not be changed or abridged by law. That's the difference.

[unc70]

61. George Romney citizen by law, not Constitution

I think we might be in agreement. Since George Romney was born in Mexico, he does not qualify by the location of his birth. Therefore his citizenship is by law under rules at that time conveying citizenship to children of (male?) citizens born outside the US. Therefore, naturalized rather than natural born.

[leveymg]

64. Yes. But, Mittens -- and Obama -- were born citizens, regardless of the nationality of parents

On that much, I hope we agree!

[unc70]

67. We very much agree. Both Obama & Mitt NB citizens

From my considerable study of this subject I believe George Romney was not a natural born citizen and that John McCain is not a natural born citizen since overseas military bases are specifically not US territories and because neither was the Canal Zone, though later law did confer citizenship.

There are the other McCain issues brought up initially by Huckabee supporters because the hospital where McCain was supposedly born wasn't built until years later. None of this relevant to anything this cycle.

[leveymg]

75. There was never anything natural about John McCain . . .

not even his birth. Bastard.

[WinkyDink]

40. The tem is not "native born": The Constitution says "natural born."

"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

[leveymg]

50. Same thing. Now, as for citizenship by birth, read the 14th Amendment.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

[spanone]

13. imagine if Obama's grandparents FLED THE UNITED STATES to engage in polygamy? just imagine....

[madokie]

16. He'd been drawn and quartered a long time ago

Is what would have happened

[LynneSin]

20. If Mitt Romney was a democrat and something other than White...

We'd have the GOP up in arms about all of this.

[ancianita]

15. Wait a second. You're just now realizing this?

[LynneSin]

19. I try not to think about Romney's Mormon religion or family history

I keep thinking of the show 'Big Love' in which polygamous Bill Hendrickson ran for Utah State Senate because his hope was to help legitimize Polygame again one day. And honestly I could see Mitters doing something like that if elected.

I think on paper I don't have a serious issue with the concept of Polygamy if we're talking consenting adults. But the Polygamy that fundie Mormoms practice is pretty scary and extremely sexist and for that I have a serious issue.

[Hubert Flottz]

18. Laws are for the 47% to abide by.

Rich Freeloaders like Mitt are exempt...too big to jail.

[barnabas63]

22. Has he presented his birth certificate???

Because I would like to see PROOF of his citizenship!!!!!!

[lalalu]

28. Republican geography 101:

Mexico is closer to the USA than Hawaii so Romney is closer to being a US citizen than President Obama.

[LynneSin]

37. Just so you know it's not Mitt's citizenship I am asking about

I accept the fact that Mitt was born in the USA.

[lalalu]

43. Why not? Romney is an anchor baby.

I am all for throwing the republican talking points right back at them.

[KansDem]

57. "I am all for throwing the republican talking points right back at them."

1. Romney's family immigrated from Mexico.
2. He was born here so, as you say, he's an "anchor baby"
3. His family collected welfare

He's everything the GOP hates!!!

[lalalu]

58. Thanks, LMAO

[KurtNYC]

32. They outsourced their polygamy

Maybe Mitt should "self deport"?

[kooljerk666]

33. How many Grandmothers did he have??

That would be a good question for any occasion.

[WinkyDink]

41. Most human beings, being human beings, have two grandmothers: one maternal; one paternal.

So there's Mitt's easy answer. How many simultaneous WIVES his grandfather had, there's the question.

[kooljerk666]

44. Geaneology is not my bag...

but u made the question "weasel resistant" thx.

[WinkyDink]

36. "so they could flee US government persecution" --- I'll have to take issue with "persecution"; it's

a Mormon propaganda term.

[dougshreff]

38. Spam deleted by CaliforniaPeggy (MIR Team)

[Enrique]

39. and by the way, he went on welfare when he came back to the U.S. n/t

[slackmaster]

42. My niece was born on the island of Okinawa, but she is a US citizen and will be qualified...

...to run for President when she reaches 40 years of age.

Both of her parents were and are US citizens.

[WinkyDink]

46. 35.

[slackmaster]

48. Yes, you are correct. 25 for the House, 30 for the Senate, 35 for President.

Thanks!

They all seem so young to me now. This is the first time I've been older than the President.

[LynneSin]

54. Was her parents station in Okinawa?

If so that is the same reason McCain could run even though he was born in Panama. His father was stationed there and his mother lived on base with his dad. So McCain was born at a US Military Post in Panama. Same is true for children born of diplomats. Diplomats are required to live overseas and many times the spouse will also move there. So any children born of these diplomats while serving their post would be considered US Natural Citizen.

[slackmaster]

60. My brother is a Naval officer. He was stationed in Japan.

Not on Okinawa but my niece was born in the US naval hospital on Okinawa.

[LynneSin]

62. So that's the situation with McCain and thus no question about her birth

Unless she happens to be a democrat.

YOu know how the rules are with the GOP

[COLGATE4]

47. Actually, McCain was in exactly the same

situation as Rmoney. Where he was born in Panama there was no American hospital on base. He was born in a Panamanian hospital nearby. So his foreign birth was the same as George Rmoney. Funny it didn't come up then. Coiuld it be IOKIYAR?????

[unblock]

51. actually, a law was passed when mclame was a child

iirc, to make any child born of us citizens in panama a "natural-born" citizen.
some say the law was passed specifically due to his parents lobbying in case he ever wanted to run for president.

[IggleDoer]

68. I believe that it only applied to those born in the "Canal Zone" - considered a US territory.

However McCain's parents wanted to give birth in a "better" hospital, in Panama City, not in the Canal Zone.

[dems_rightnow]

70. LOL

I assume you're joking about the lobbying, just in case McCain wanted to run for President all those years later.

[unblock]

73. well i'm serious that "some say", as i've heard it from multiple sources.

but whether or not those people got it originally as a joke, i can't say.

i do know that mclame's father was an admiral at the time, so it's hardly out of the question that they had presidential hopes for their newborn son. but keep in mind, LOTS of parents want to keep that option open for their kids, even if they should realize the odds of it actually happening are horrendous.

heck, we always talked about my mother becoming president, and how silly it was that she was ineligible because she was born in austria but was moved to america as a baby. 100% of her memories of growing up are in america. of course she never would have had a realistic chance to become president anyway, but that didn't keep us from talking about it.

[LynneSin]

55. Yes but McCains parents weren't in Panama to escape US Laws

His father was sent there to serve in a Military capacity. Obviously without a US Hospital on the base it would be expected that a local hospital would be used instead.

[krispos42]

52. I want Romney to denounce his father's presidential run as un-constitutional

*evil cackle*

[hughee99]

56. When George Romney runs again, we should make an issue of it! n/t

[cali]

63. Seriously? Why do people feel compelled to play the same idiotic game that teabaggers

indulge in.

His parents were both U.S. citizens. And that the beginning, middle and end of this ridiculous dog shit.

President Obama was and is eligible. George Romney was eligible. to even question this, put YOU and those agreeing with you, in exactly the same position as the contemptible baggers.

[LynneSin]

74. I'm not trying to start a birther movement nor do any of us question Mitt's citizenship

I guess to me the discussion is more about why is there even a birther movement in the first place because to me it seems more about racism and less about where Obama was born.

But I want you to know that I do appeciate where your post is coming from and it is a good part of this discusson.

[cali]

77. and that's just sad. You can't even see what you're doing.

I know you're better than this silly shit.

[LynneSin]

80. I think what i'm doing is having a discussion

Not like I"m trying to change the outcome of the 1968 election and not one person here question's Mitt's citizenship.

My opinion is this - if George Romney can be born in Mexico and still run for president why is ANYONE even questioning Obama's citizenship.

And I learned some things today like that Obama is the 12th president to have one or more parents born outside the USA.

If I thought this topic was devolving into some weird birther movement for the left I'd be the first to lock it.

[treestar]

65. One rightie kindly explained it to me

George parents were American. So George was born American and a natural born citizen.

Obama was born in America, but one of his parents was not American. Therefore, Obama is not a natural born citizen.

This righty was going after the Vattel theory, I believe, where they disqualify Obama even though he was actually born in the US by saying natural born citizen means both your parents were citizens (thereby disqualifying a few past Presidents, too).

In short they are brainless morons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. But they never resigned their US citizenship

So their son was a citizen of the US by the nature of blood, and he also never took the Mexican Citizenship at 18, (which is a choice he had when he turned 18 under the Mexican Constitution at the time)

THe US recognizes American Citizenship by birth in the US of at least one American parent abroad.

Why the McCain "flop" was kind of funny.

[IggleDoer]

71. Here's the thing ... Was George Romney ever an American citizen?

His parents moved/lived and married in Mexico to avoid US laws. Wouldn't that mean that they were renouncing their US citizenship?

If so, George was not a US citizen unless he was naturalized. Taking that further, Mitt was born in the US (we assume), the son of an ILLEGAL! Is he an "Anchor Baby" that his base abhors?

[RavensChick]

72. Good question.

I've been wondering that for a while too.

[Jim Lane]

78. In 2008 a few of the birthers also considered McCain ineligible

Traditionally, there are two bases of citizenship -- "law of the blood" (citizenship through your parents) and "law of the soil" (citizenship through your place of birth). It is now and has long been U.S. law that citizenship is attained at birth if you satisfy either basis, although the specifics of what constitutes adequate parentage have changed over the years.

In 2008, some of the birthers decided to read a requirement into the Constitution, namely that "natural born citizen" means you qualify under BOTH tests. Some of these folks at least rose above the birth-certificate silliness by arguing that Obama, even if born in Hawaii, had one noncitizen parent, and was therefore ineligible, and that McCain was ineligible because of not having been born in the U.S.

This year, before Romney made his VP selection, there were some people on Free Republic who were enthusiastic about Marco Rubio as a possibility. Others there, however, following their imaginary Constitutional provision, declared Rubio ineligible because, although he was born in the U.S., his parents weren't citizens at the time.

This is not a mainstream birther view (if you'll pardon the oxymoron). Most birthers follow the standard view of the law, under which citizenship on either basis is acceptable, and therefore must maintain that Obama was born in Kenya in order to dispute his eligibility. (Under the law at the time, if he had been born in Kenya he wouldn't be a citizen, although this has since changed.) Given the evidence about his place of birth, I think it's fair to judge these birthers as racists. As to the minority of birthers who also deny the eligibility of a white guy and a Hispanic guy, however, I think they're cleared of the charge of racism. The charge of making up your own Constitution, however, is one they can't escape.

[LynneSin]

84. This is my biggest problem with the 'Obama was born in Kenya' argument

I thought that if you had one parent that was a US Citizen then any child born of that parent would inherit that citizenship regardless of where they are born. And because of that I"ve always believed that this birther movement against Obama was nothing more than pure racism looking desperately for any excuse to get Obama out of office.

[Jim Lane]

86. On that legal point, my understanding is that the birthers are correct.

You write: "I thought that if you had one parent that was a US Citizen then any child born of that parent would inherit that citizenship regardless of where they are born."

As I understand it, what you say is a correct statement of current law but was NOT the law in 1961 when Obama was born. At that time, a child born outside the U.S. to one citizen parent and one noncitizen parent would be a citizen at birth only if the citizen parent had lived in the U.S. for at least five years after attaining the age of 14. I assume the purpose was to exclude people who, though nominally U.S. citizens, perhaps because they were born here to visiting foreign parents, didn't have enough ties to this country. Anyway, regardless of the reason for the rule, Obama's mother didn't qualify. She had lived in the U.S. all her life but she was only 18 when he was born, so her residence here after her 14th birthday didn't quite reach the five-year mark.

My personal view of the "natural born citizen" requirement is that it means you're a citizen at birth regardless of subsequent legal action, such as a change in the law or a naturalization proceeding. If Obama hadn't been eligible at birth, then I don't think an amendment to the law could retroactively make him a natural born citizen. Presumably there are people out there who were born outside the U.S. in 1961 to parents like Obama's (one noncitizen, one citizen who didn't meet the five-year requirement either by being too young or by having lived outside the U.S.). I would say that those people can't become President, even though someone born under those circumstances in 2012 would be eligible.

I would also say that the whole "natural born citizen" requirement should be scrapped. Just provide that, to be eligible, you have to have been a citizen for at least 35 years. That would mean we'd get to run Jennifer Granholm in 2016 but that Arnold Schwarzenegger wouldn't be eligible until 2020, when he'll be 73.

[OldDem2012]

79. I'm sorry, but none of this has anything to do with THIS election, does it? nt.

[LynneSin]

81. That's why it's in GD and not POlitics 2012 forum

[OldDem2012]

82. That's why I'm punching the "Trash this Thread" button. nt.

[quinnox]

85. you have hit upon a topical and burning issue

Sorry, but I don't see how this matters in the slightest, to me it would be the same as asking what Romney's relatives favorite color was all that time ago.