Is it really a matter of faith vs physical?

[sarisataka]

Trust the experts at the CDC
"In Fauci I trust"
Believe in science
The vaccines are safe and effective

We have been preaching these for months. Yet when these same people tell us we can trust the vaccine and remove the mask we recoil. Why?

'The CDC has been wrong before', 'it's political', 'we don't have enough data'- all these and more are excuses used by anti-mask folk and we have ridiculed them for it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we certainly can say one of those excuses is why we will keep wearing a mask. We have traveled a very different road but we have arrived at the same conclusion- we don't fully trust the "experts". We can wear the mask but we are tracking a certain amount of hypocrisy across the carpet by using the same excuses.

Or is it less complicated and based on our primary senses? Nearly all of us have no way to test our blood. We cannot measure what level of antibodies we have or how they fight various strains of the virus. A mask on the other hand is a physical object. We can see it, feel it and can put it on at anytime we feel the need knowing it is doing what it does.

Are masks simply our security blanket? That it is easier to believe in something we can touch than something we must believe to be true?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. People have a lot of reasons for continuing to wear masks besides their vax status.

As at the beginning of the pandemic, wearing masks when your risk is low normalizes and reduces the stigma for wearings masks for higher-risk people.

We've learned masks reduce exposure and transmission of other viruses, and can help reduce allergy symptoms.

Masks can reduce certain kinds of street harassment, especially for women ("c'mon and smile!" ) and reduce identification through AI or other surveillance.

I trust the vaccine and will continue to wear a mask at my comfort level. We all contain multitudes.

[CrispyQ]

2. Are there any stats on the effectiveness of the vaccines on the new variants?

I don't consider wearing a mask as lack of trust in the experts as much as it's a matter of we still don't fully know or understand what we're dealing with.

Also, why would I want to get even a little sick?

[sarisataka]

9. The CDC director said

The study published last week shows the vaccines are effective against the variants.

[Xoan]

3. Masks protect against more than Covid-19.

[sarisataka]

10. But Covid-19 is what we are talking about nt

[Crunchy Frog]

4. I've personally never trusted anything just because "an expert" says so.

I like to see the evidence backing something up, at least in broad strokes.

In the case of the mask thing, I'm not at all sure that political and social considerations weren't part of the calculus.

In any event, continuing to wear a mask is a personal choice that literally affects nobody else. My bigger question is why do some people feel such an intense need so scrutinize other people's choices that don't effect them?

[sarisataka]

12. Point missed nt

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I'm going to keep wearing masks indoors because I wanna?

Is that more what you're looking for?

[Claire Oh Nette]

19. I like to see the evidence backing something up

Where did you do your epidemiology & virology residency?

I worked in Clinical Trials for several pharmaceutical research companies, including Roche. I administered investigational drug trials. I've prepared IND and NDAs for the FDA. I've managed Adverse Event Reporting.

Anyone saying they're "waiting to see" and "I haven't done my own research" suggests they know more than all the MD/PhDs, trained scientists, chemists, and statisticians combined. THe notion that anyone who's taken the vaccine is a guinea pig or part of an experiment DOS NOT UNDERSTAND HOW DRUG TRIALS WORK OR HOW THE FDA WORKS. Never mind that no category of medication is tested to higher and more standards than vaccines precisely because they have to go into BILLIONS of people, unlike chemotherapy agents, or Statins, or antidepressants, all of which cause far more side effects that targeted messenger RNA.

Do you need to see the back up data and statistical analysis for all the medications you take? Did you ask for the raw data for your tetanus shots, or your pneumonia vaccine, or shingles vax? Did you devise and conduct your own studies before deciding to wear your seatbelt, or quit smoking?

I don't pretend to be an expert in things I am not an expert in. I don't pretend to know more than the entire medical community. I don't assume I can parse the trial data and run the numbers better than PhD statisticians or PharmDs. If you are a trained, educated medical professional, I do apologize. Most i hear this line of hesitancy from have a high school diploma, or maybe a year or two of junior college general studies under their belts.

I love me some VW cars. Bug, Rabbit, Sirocco, Jetta, Passat. Know all about them. Have owned four, no five VWs over my lifetime. When Volkswagen of America recalled my Jetta over accelerator issues, I didn't test the problem myself to see if the pedal would stick. WHen my Passat faced a a recall over som engine part that might cause hot radiator fluid to spray my feet in the event the part malfunctioned, I didn't wait and see if I burned my feet with hot chemicals. I got the part replaced.

The GOP politicized this virus just like they did the HIV virus. The virus hit people who were more than likely democrats--affluent world travelers and entertainers, and thos in major metropolitan areas served by major airports. The prior administration thought it would kill off democrats, old folks, and poor people and they didn't care because those people tended to be democrats.

The prior administration picked up the anti-vaxxer nonsense over autism (one study, flawed methodology, thoroughly debunked) and fed them the very doubt they now profess they've always had. Yet these vax hesitant folks tend to believe the non scientifically, anecdotal evidence about turmeric, or other homeopathic remedies spread via woo accounts on instagram. Same pathway into save the children--

The J&J blood clot issue was evidence the CDC works. it took just 6 patients to identify the pattern, isolate the problem and write new guidelines. Out of over 7,000,000 who received that vaccine. Pre-menopausal women should NOT take J&J. Based on science.

If great numbers of people were contracting covid post vaccine, we'd know. If they were dying from the vaccine, we'd know. That the opposition party who wants to see the Biden administration can only whine about masks and say wait and see six months after vaccine approval, and a precipitous drop in new cases since wide spread vaccination, says a lot about just how very effective both the vaccines and the rollout of those vaccines has been.

Now, there are people who have very real medical reasons (not excuses) they can't have vaccines. Suppressed immune systems from transplant, known but rare clotting disorders, allergies to individual ingredients in the vaxx, MS, or other auto immune disorders. My husband is a transplant recipient, so it is incumbent upon me to take extra precautions to protect him.

It appears to me lifting the mask requirement for "fully vaccinated people" will require proof of vaccination. It's coming. It's already happening for employment in a variety of sectors. Full approval for ages 11+ is around the corner, and then States, Businesses, and the military absolutely can and will require vaccines, and the wait and see, everyone but me folks will have to get stuck, or stay home.

Expertise is a thing. It takes a special kind of arrogance to dismiss experts because anti intellectualism won't die off in the US.

(climbs off soapbox)
WHile I'm sure you are thoughtful and weigh what you read carefully, way too many people using that line of reasoning are not experts at anything.

[Crunchy Frog]

21. tldr.

[Claire Oh Nette]

22. But you'll do your own research

You know better than the FDA. Uh-huh.
Wait and see is bullshit. You're part of the problem. Unconscionable arrogance.

A post is too long. But you'll do your own research, and read all the back up data. Riiiiight.

TLDR = I have no argument and I'm wrong.

[RobinA]

5. My Worry

was always about getting other people sick, particularly my 91 year old mother. I never really thought much about getting sick myself. I am fully vaccinated and so is my mother and another elderly relative. I think recalling the mask mandate indicates that they are sure the vaccine works damn well. I've felt that the CDC was a bit alarmist up until now, so I'm taking them saying we don't have to wear masks to be a sign that they are pretty positive we don't have to wear masks.

Part of it is what you are used to. I am essential and have worked every assigned workday of this pandemic. I've been exposed and not gotten sick. I know people who have been limiting their going out since last March due to fear. I've always thought that those people are going to have big problems going out again. I'm waiting for COVID Agoraphobia to be coined. But those people STILL aren't going out and will probably wear masks for a long time. It's everybody's individual assessment of risk that is key.

[Elessar Zappa]

6. I'll stop wearing mine

when the state and business mandates end in my state. I’m looking forward to it.

[dawg]

7. It's a cost/benefit decision.

The cost for me to mask up in certain situations is so low that there doesn't need to be much potential benefit in order to justify still doing so.

A little awkwardness and discomfort at the grocery store and my already low chances of catching or spreading Covid drop even more.

(Plus, people can't see my lips move while I'm muttering to myself about all of my other worries!)

[Silent3]

8. At least it's a safe, unselfish thing to cling to wearing masks a bit longer.

I think a lot of people have internalized the need for masks, and associate wearing masks not just with staying healthy, but also with setting a good example, and not looking like a selfish dick.

In 13 days, when my second dose of Moderna has fully kicked in, I'll definitely ditch my mask whenever possible. I already have been skipping the mask when outdoors in the park, with no one near me, for a while.

But if a store still has their "mask required" sign up? I think putting on a mask is the more polite thing to do until the signs come down.

[Towlie]

11. Remember in Dante's Peak when a resident asked if he was allowed to evacuate ahead of time?

 
?

My point is that you're an idiot if you think you need someone else's permission to be extra cautious.

[LanternWaste]

13. Because there's no cost or risk to wear the mask

"Yet when these same people tell us we can trust the vaccine and remove the mask we recoil. Why?"

Because there's no cost or risk to wear the mask, unlike the reverse situation.

If faith (as classically defined) is simply trust in that which I do not completely understand (and I doubt anyone on DU has absolute knowledge of science), and my faith is not absolute, and my recourse is a benign action which affects no one, carries zero risk, and cost nothing (i.e., wearing a mask), seems that at best, lecturing others to stop wearing a mask becomes its own variation of virtue signaling predicated on a false equivalency.

Also, let's be honest (at least with our own self... if no one else). No one is recoiling. The melodrama you employ does your position no credit.

[Sympthsical]

14. I don't see why it's anyone's business if I wear a mask

And this poo-pooing of people who want to continue wearing one is weird. People are coming off as anti-maskers almost.

I'm comfortable wearing a mask. Putting it on has become a second nature, muscle memory thing. I haven't had a single cold since I started wearing one. I go to the gym everyday and feel safer wearing one. Not just against Covid, but everything else you can catch there. I mentioned this in another thread, but I was at a restaurant yesterday. About 60 people, all indoors, no masks. I noped out to an outdoor table.

Are all those people vaccinated? I doubt it.

Furthermore, even if we are vaccinated, we can still contract it. And even if I'm asymptomatic, what if I pass it on to someone who isn't vaccinated or who is especially vulnerable? Don't I have a responsibility here?

I'm all about science in all things. I like tangible evidence. The fact of the matter is, we really don't know everything about the virus. Not by a long, long way. We know quite a bit, but there are long-term unknowns involved.

So why the sneering about simple caution? It's my choice, and my choice harms no one. People in Asian countries have been wearing masks for a long, long time now. It's part of their culture. I saw Asian immigrants wearing masks long before Covid. Should we be giving them lectures, too?

And the idea that there isn't a massive amount of political pressure to begin reopening is either naive or disingenuous. There is massive, massive, massive, massive political pressure to get back to normal.

Also, "In Fauci we trust," was always creepy. That kind of veneration for one single human who is as fallible as the rest of us never sat right with me. I think people latched onto him because he was the anti-Trump during the pandemic. Fine. But, still, creepy.

These anti-mask posts are starting to get really weird.

[NotASurfer]

15. I trust the results

Masking, hygiene, keeping a little distance, and staying away from indoor gatherings do in fact dramatically reduce the transmission of communicable airborne disease.

One side effect that dramatically demonstrates this is the suppression of seasonal influenza this past flu season. Popular Science summarized it this way:

Every year, around 45 million people get the flu in the US. This year, it was less than 2,000. It’s an unprecedented low for flu season, and it’s a tribute to how well social distancing measures have worked—though they didn’t stop COVID-19 entirely, influenza has virtually disappeared. This year’s case counts were two-thirds lower than the lowest year previously on record

https://www.popsci.com/health/flu-season-severe-2022/


Ponder that for a minute. 45 million during an average year. Two thousand this year.

Scientific American has it graphically, dropping in Notrh America from 30,000 cases per week to, well, so low it appears as zero on the graph...under 100 per week for North America.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/


We have accidentally conducted a big experiment in controlling influenza with IMO stunning results. What we did to try to slow transmission of airborne communicable disease to control COVID worked, despite the finest misinformation available. Numbers can't lie.

Final thought, the over half a million deaths in the US happened with those (admittedly spotty, admittedly I enforced in some jurisdictions, admittedly ignored entirely by a segment of the population; we could have done so much better) measures in place to slow the spread of COVID. Now imagine the toll if we had had no mitigation whatsoever in place.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

18. It's possible that the lack of a flu season was more greatly

reduced travel to and from China, where much of our flu originates, than the masks. A year ago, when it was winter in the southern hemisphere, their flu rates plummeted, and I don't think they were being that diligent about masking in many of those countries.

[NotASurfer]

20. Decline in travel contributed to slowing the spread

Limited the opportunities for transmission and cut down dramatically on one "indoor" venue where a lot of people would be packed like sardines for hours. This is anecdotal, but I used to travel by plane enough that it felt like my butt conformed to middle seats. Flu vaccines helped but I could count on catching some bug a couple times a year. I don't doubt that the huge reduction in travel helped the cause considerably.

I noodled with WHO numbers for China on Flunet, looks like number of flu cases in China is around 90% lower this flu season vs last. So the same basic preventative measures appear to be working on that side of the Pacific. The good news is, we wouldn't have been trading the same volume of seasonal flu back and forth as previous years if we did have normal air travel & in-flight transmission rates.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

17. A lot of us aren't recoiling at that advice.

But I'm going to not wear my mask whenever possible. I will continue to wear it in stores and such if that's what they want. I don't care if someone else continues to wear one needlessly. It doesn't hurt me.