I cannot help feeling this way. The CDC under Biden has just screwn

[boston bean]

their own supporters by caving to the lunatics.

I mean really, who here who has masked, got vaxed an been responsible not just for themselves but for others would have been upset wearing masks for another few months? I suppose NONE.

But the lunatics now have zero reason to get their vax. No social punishment for putting all of at risk for over a year by being maskholes.

Now they get to continue on and sicken more people and the CDC has essentially given their blessing. If the CDC or Biden think these maskholes are gonna wear a mask now or get vaxed, I question their common sense.

This was an abrupt departure from what we were being told just a week ago. And yeah I ampissed they caved to those motherfuckers.

Really really pissed about it.

There is NO way this was not politically motivated and we were promised science.

Again, I am really angry about the position they have put us all in.

[MerryHolidays]

1. Maximum respect, but I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with you

I had an OP about an hour ago on this, with lots of discussion: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215435081

[NullTuples]

111. Nation's largest nurses union condemns new CDC guidance on masks

The nation’s largest nurses union condemned the new guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that stipulates fully vaccinated people do not have to wear masks in most settings.

National Nurses United (NNU) in a statement Saturday said it was concerned that it would put patients, front-line workers and nurses at risk amid a pandemic that is still present in the U.S.

“This newest CDC guidance is not based on science, does not protect public health, and threatens the lives of patients, nurses, and other frontline workers across the country,” said NNU Executive Director Bonnie Castillo. “Now is not the time to relax protective measures, and we are outraged that the CDC has done just that while we are still in the midst of the deadliest pandemic in a century.”

“CDC issued this new guidance even though the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) emergency temporary standard mandated by President Biden’s Jan. 21 executive order has been delayed for two months. This lack of protection compounds the dangers that nurses and other essential workers continue to face on the job,” Castillo added.

More here:
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/553730-prominent-nurses-union-condemns-new-cdc-guidance-on-masks

[MerryHolidays]

114. Thank you for being one of the very few people to post something specific like this

This is highly relevant.

That being said, I will accept the CDC and President Biden's recommendation. Nothing in life is totally risk free, and it seems that this was a risk-based analysis.

From what I can gather, if you are vaccinated, you are safe. If you are not vaccinated, you must mask. If you choose not to, accept the consequences. That's pretty much how must things are done in life.

But, thanks for posting something specific.

[uponit7771]

165. "this was a risk-based analysis." for the vaxed for the unvaxible this screams disaster to do

... this early in the process.

Seems like they're discounting the data showing 20 - 30% of MAGA Minions don't want to get vaxed at all, what are HC community to do with them pre 70% vaccination?

I pray I'm wrong but there will be a spike after memorial day among a smaller number of Americans

[NullTuples]

221. Our family has been getting vaxxed as soon as our age tiers open

(or at least making our appointments then)

I have multiple concerns:
1. Not everyone can get vaccinated yet
2. Not everyone can get vaccinated at all
3. Places like India are still on fire & that almost guarantees new variants; eventually one may evade the vaccines
4. We're skipping ahead of all prior calculated thresholds without any justification given, just statements that they're using "science"

Honestly it feels like once the stats came out that there was no way we'd reach herd immunity via vaccines because too many Republicans had vowed to never get the vaccines, the strategy shifted to, "Your on your own, then".

And that's not good science.

Where is the science, by the way? I'd love to see the source papers for the proclamations of "science" by the CDC but so far, nothing.

[FirstLight]

2. I agree...im simmering inside every time I go out the last 2 days...

I get my second shot on friday and will still be masking. period.

The CDc relaxing this reccomendation/mandate has already been seen on the ground in my own town. Ad to that the facet we are a tourist destination for all the Bay Area folks and Stateline was a madhouse this weekend.

I was outside getting gas at this certain nottorious outdoor bar/tourist pit and shopping centwer where they all flock. at least50% fewer masks than last weekend... I wor my mask outside to get gas and was actually looked at funny by the UNmasked tourists groups walking by. Only 1 in 5 of those groups had masks

Had to hit the grocery store in that same tourist hub shopping center on the way home... lots of folks just raw-doggin it. even though the mandate in CA is still in effect and they have signs on the doors. There will be no more enforcement by anyone.

Im just going to try and continue being a hermit and avoiding going out ...and once full blown tourist season comes that area will be off limits!

[FirstLight]

6. to clarify... I am seeing way more of the population in my town unmasked than % that are vaxxed

So that would imply these are people just using the CDC reccomendation as a cover and taking advanbtage of being an asshole

[Eyeball_Kid]

38. The opposite here...

In my living area in western Oregon, I'm in the very small minority of people who aren't wearing masks in public places. It's true at the gym I attend, in the restaurants, and in the grocery markets. I'm astounded at the number of people who continue to wear masks indoors.

[SMC22307]

170. The opposite in Raleigh, NC.

I've only seen one person without a mask -- a woman at a grocery store. The Lowe's I shop at is very diverse as far as customers and employees and everyone was masked. Ace Hardware. Hallmark store. Restaurants for takeout. All masked.

[jimfields33]

37. You definitely should. You are only day two of the two weeks until fully vaccinated

Very smart for you to continue to wear a mask. You are half vaccinated currently until May 28th.

[sarcasmo]

137. Ordered a grocery delivery tonight, kept me out of the store on a Sunday.

[OhioChick]

3. I agree with you 100%....

They jumped the gun, we will surge again and when we do, they won't be able to backtrack.

The crazy-ass GOP will then blame Biden and the CDC.

[boston bean]

5. If there was a vax database we might have been able to exclude these persons

Putting others at risk.

At this point will be no mask for anyone policy.

And people who want to will most likely be attacked not just from the right but those on the left.

This decision was not just based on science and we were promised science.

[Rebl2]

21. Got that right!

[uponit7771]

164. +1, there will be a surge post memorial day weekend and HC workers will be swamped and

... the number of increased cases will be among a smaller population getting sick.

[ProfessorGAC]

4. So, Let Me Get This Straight

We waited patiently for an effective vaccine, based on good science.
When it was available, because the data show them to be effective, we jumped through appropriate hoops to get vaccinated, because good science said it would protect us.
Now, we get vaccinated and the CDC says based on that same science, vaccinated people don't need masks.
And, now we aren't supposed to follow the science?
This doesn't sound rational. It sounds like it's based in paralyzing fear.

[boston bean]

7. Ummm it was easier to enforce a mask for all policy.

Now the maskholes just gotta lie and pretend they were vaccinated.

See the difference?

[FirstLight]

10. ding! ...and they WON'T get vaccinated, which screws up herd immunity

which also means that with new variants and boosters etc we could be looking at some crazy spikes by June-July...again

[NNadir]

68. Not really. They have chosen to gain immunity by getting the disease.

While they may qualify for the Darwin Award, and may raise the number of variants in the process, the disease is going to wane one way or the other. I note that since this disease seems to have long term consequences, their choice is also going to shorten their life span.

Overall, the effect will be to raise the intellectual level of the public.

These vaccines are not like anything we we've seen before, in particular the BioNT(Pfizer) and Moderna vaccines. They are straight forward to adjust for new variants. I'm vaccinated; my wife is vaccinated; my sons are vaccinated; as are all of my nieces and nephews and in laws, including those who had Covid before the vaccines were available.

I'm really no longer afraid of mask-less types. I wear my mask often, lest I be confused with a Republican, but I'm really not frightened at all. I have no trouble with the CDC ruling.

[dweller]

98. "Overall, the effect will be to raise the intellectual level of the public"

Oh, ok then ... I’ll wait for that, but honestly don’t think I’ll live that long ...

ymmv

✌🏻

[wnylib]

101. I'm not quite as confident about being

vaccinated as you are, because of breakthrough cases, but I do feel better about having the vaccine.

I agree with your comments about anti vaxxers and anti maskers making their own choice. But you seem to be assuming that all the people who wanted a vaccine have received one. That's not the case, and I feel concern for people who want one but have not yet been able to get it. They can, of course, continue to wear a mask, but they will be put at higher risk now from the increase in cases that I expect will occur. Some of them will be unvaccinated children.

ON EDIT: And some will be immunocompromised people for whom the vaccines are not effective. NPR carried a program about that. People who must take life-saving meds for cancer, transplants, etc. have been tested after vaccination to check for covid antibodies. Less than half developed any at all. The ones who did develop them had low amounts that offer minimal protection.

[liberal_mama]

118. I'm in Western New York (Erie County). A friend of my aunt is in the hospital right now on a vent

He is fully vaccinated and only 62 years old. She called my mother to tell her about it yesterday. Now she says she's going back to two masks! I have no doubt that the vaccine isn't effective in some people. I assume the CDC realizes this too.

[wnylib]

135. I think from the number of cases like

like your aunt's friend that it is apparent that the vaccine is, as you say, not effective with everyone. The problem for me is that I don't know if I am one for whom it is effective or not. I have considered asking my NP if I can be tested to see if I have developed antibodies. My reaction to the second Moderna shot was very mild. I had a few muscle aches in my upper back the day after the shot, a loss of appetite, and a very slightly elevated temp, up only about 3 tenths of a degree.

Regardless of claims that people who had mild or no reaction to the vaccine are still fully vaccinated, I suspect that the lack of a robust reaction indicates a lack of robust antibody development. Since I had a mild reaction to the shot, I am hoping that it means that I would at least not get a severe case if I do get infected.

I am in a bordering county to yours. Our county health department statistics showed an increase in hospitalizations and deaths in the last couple months. There was another death this week. We are a sparsely populated county, so just a few deaths are significant here. One third of our cases are in the age group from 0 to 39, but there are no deaths in that age group. So the recent hospitalizations and deaths must be from older people who have already been vaccinated. I am 71, and continue to double mask and socially distance from others although I am 6 weeks past my second Moderna shot.

[NNadir]

122. There is increasing evidence that antibodies are only a small part of the story.

This is offset by T-Cell induced immunity. There was an article in Cell just recently on the topic. I briefly discussed it here: Reduced neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant by convalescent and vaccine sera.

I think people are misreading the CDC advice as "don't wear a mask ever!" That's not what it says.

There are many diseases besides Covid that effect immune compromised people; some of which are nearly as fatal or even more fatal than Covid. The world did not require masks to protect them from, say, tuberculous, or serious flus. There are places where the levels of infection have fallen to very low levels.

Last week I took my cat to the vet. They had a big sign on the door. "Don't come in without a mask. We have high risk employees here." I think respect is called for; but let's be clear; the anti-maskers were here before the CDC advice and they're not going away. We who have been vaccinated or will be vaccinated shortly have never had control over them.

As for reaching the level where everyone who wants one will get one, we are getting closer by the hour. I was personally involved in the scale up of HIV Protease Inhibitors and we could not make them fast enough for a long time - we lost sleep when we were behind - and then boom! Suddenly we had a huge inventory.

This point is approaching fast.

I do believe we're going to need to modify the sequences and get additional shots periodically; mostly because of India and other underserved countries. This means that we will need to continue to scale, but here in the US, under Biden, I'm fairly confident that the worst is over.

There are hidden material and environmental costs associated with the justifiable use of all this gear. I don't think this decision is "Joe Biden's." I think he's listening to the scientists and as always, here and elsewhere there are people who assume, often without justification, that they know more than what the scientists know.

As for the report on NPR, my general perception of journalism as it touches science is falling to new lows; and it's been quite low for some time. My standard joke is that "you cannot receive a degree in journalism if you have passed a college level science course with a grade of C or better." We can always find specific cases of concern in anything, but we often choose to ignore, because our attention is driven to be selective by journalism, the general case.

My personal experience is that more than 75% of the time I hear a journalist speaking about a scientific topic with which I'm familiar, the reporting is distorted and misleading.

I certainly hold the level of modern journalism responsible for the tragedy that has befallen us. They legitimized Trump, for one thing, treated him way too seriously while carrying on about, among many things, "the emails."

Their science reporting is like that.

In this case, I'm not sure that the journalists really know about what the word "antibodies" is.

[Native]

128. Great post. Thanks for this.

[wnylib]

154. The NPR program was not a discussion

of science by journalists. It was a report and explanation of the tests and results from the medical people who did the research and tests on the immunocompromised people.

Regarding TB and masks, TB is not nearly as common in the general population as covid is now. For that matter, covid infections are more common now than even the flu since many people get flu vaccines, but covid vaccines are still fairly new. The level of covid infection is going down now due to the vaccines, but clearly there are some people for whom they are not effective, for whatever as yet unknown reasons. They are usually older people whose immune systems are not as robust as younger people's. Since I am in that category of older people, I think it is sensible for me to continue masking for the time being.

Regarding the wearing of masks prior to covid, my health care office required ALL people, staff and patients, who did not get a flu shot to wear a mask in the office during flu season, long before covid. I am allergic to the flu shot, so that included me.

For many of the people who want to be vaccinated but have not received a shot yet, it is not due to an insufficient amount of vaccine production. It is due a number of factors, e.g. inability to get time off from work for the shot and its after effects, distant rural locations away from vaccination sites, lack of transportation to vaccine clinics, etc. My county - a rural region of small cities and villages with a high poverty rate - has organized to overcome these problems with assistance in making appointments and with transportation via a county transit system. There are other regions in the country that are not offering that kind of help to reach out to people.

[NNadir]

166. You, like the media, are raising specific cases to characterize the general.

I don't listen to NPR - I did years ago and was a long time supporter in fact of public radio, but I changed my mind about the value of it - so I cannot comment on this specific radio event. I have said that in general I don't give much credit to "science journalism."

NPR in my experience, which was confirmed when I briefly turned them on after the insurrection while they were interviewing a terrorist who'd been in the rebellion, to see how he "feels," gives short accounts that are hardly comprehensive.

"Science" is not monolithic, nor are "scientific opinions." I referenced a post of mine that linked to a very detailed report from people conducting antibody binding tests on the B.1.1.7 variant. It's here: Reduced neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant by convalescent and vaccine sera.

That I wrote this post is a small indication that I get my scientific information from the primary scientific literature as opposed to NPR.

Here is a link to the original paper I discussed, taken directly from my post: Reduced neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant by convalescent and vaccine sera (Mongkolsapaya, Stuart, Screaton et al., Cell VOLUME 184, ISSUE 8, P2201-2211.E7, APRIL 15, 2021)

I'm not going to count the number of authors in this scientific team out of Oxford University, but I can easily see 50 references to other scientific papers, since the references are numbered.

What is the probability that NPR reporters selected a fair cross section of scientists for their "discussion?"

As for rural areas, were there is good government, efforts are being made to reach isolated populations. I do note that many rural areas vote, sometimes overwhelmingly, for the White Supremacy party and so they don't have good government. As regrettable as that is, it cannot be helped. I believe the Biden administration is trying to get through red state resistance to reach these people, but I would suspect that there is indeed a subset of rural people who believe that the vaccine is a plot to install microchips made by Bill Gates. This certainly doesn't represent all citizens of rural states, not by a long shot.

And while I would support a law requiring that any person who wants to get a vaccine should get a three day paid leave, I'm not sure that if a large population in this class exists - if you have specific numbers about this specific case, I'd love to see them - the employers making this policy are risking losing their workers. Some of them, to be sure, are members of the White Supremacy Party, but that doesn't mean there will be a huge death toll in New Jersey if vaccinated people don't wear masks in New Jersey, as opposed to a meat packing plant in Topeka.

As for your focus on the specific case of TB, which you are indicating represents my general case, let me tell you this: There is a drug called ganciclovir that had been around for a very long time and was used only sporadically to address cytomegalovirus infections that if untreated could lead to blindness. The reservoir for the cytomegalovirus is the eyes of primates, although other mammals carry other species. (Species of this virus also causes mononucleosis.) The virus is widely distributed, but most people do not get severe infections because of their immune systems. When AIDS became an issue, suddenly immune compromised patients began to go blind as a result. Ganciclovir suddenly became a hot item and I personally was involved in the development of a prodrug for it. The virus is still around of course; it has always been around. It's widespread, and was wide spread before the AIDS outbreak and after it. Do you believe we should all wear googles because of the immune compromised?

I think that the new policy of the CDC is consistent with the science I know. I am hardly the world's greatest scientist by any stretch, but that said, I am a scientist with nearly full access to the scientific literature, which is where I get my information.

Some people here are politicizing not wearing masks as an item of dogma much as the people in the White Supremacy party politicized wearing them. Politics and science should mix in my view, but often they don't.

We on the left are not immune from letting our political opinions dominate the science. I've been here for nearly 20 years; and I've seen a lot of that in my time, in issues as far ranging from crop management, the means to address climate change, and of course, human disease.

I try to think critically - sometimes I fail as any critical thinker will and I fall short - but I do try to do my best.

I approve of the CDC's recommendations, and I feel that the criticism of our outstanding President in connection with an announcement made by a scientific team working under him falls into the category of "...but her emails."

Thanks for your comments. Have a nice day.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. Silly

Those people were the resisters anyway.
We've all seen them.
And, that doesn't begin to explain the rejection of scientific evidence that we, as vaccinated people have reduced risk of serious illness by a factor of around 4,000.

[boston bean]

13. Biden projected 70% vaccinated by early July

Why oh why are we lifting mask recommendations when we haven’t gotten to 40%?

Something ain’t making sense here.

[liberal_mama]

54. That's what is bothering me about this abrupt decision. It doesn't make sense to me.

35,000 to 40,000 new cases a day. Lots of deaths. I keep hearing we will need booster shots soon, so how do we know when our shots are no longer good? No one knows yet.

[appalachiablue]

139. +2

[GulfCoast66]

140. In most states there are no mask mandates.

And with 100,000,000 does given there have been around 10,000 breakthrough cases. One in 10,000 chance of getting Covid if vaccinated.

And less than 150 deaths. I won’t even bother with the math. Statistically around 1 in a million.

With these odds telling we fully vaccinated people to keep masking and hiding in our houses would violate the tenants of science. Because if you ate vaccinated you chance of dying from Covid is less than driving.

But digging deeper. The ignored study is that asymptotic cases have such a low virus load that they are at small risk of spreading the virus. And if people are following the CDC guidelines the people they will be around unmasked will also be vaccinated. So they are at a tiny risk of getting the virus.

The CDC does science. We all got rightfully pissed off when they got involved in policy and politics. Joe said he would end that. And he obviously has. Now it’s goring the left wing oxen that makes masks are a liberal value.

[boston bean]

146. Again, this is not about the vaccinated. It is about the recommendation and

It’s effects. And why doing this now at this time with such low vaccine rates and covid still very much present.

It could have waited a couple or few months. Biden still says 70% vaccinated by July 4. So, there are still tens of millions of vaccines to be given out to people who want them. This “it’s just the maskholes problem” is bullshit.

[GulfCoast66]

156. With respect, I don't see your point. The CDC is supposed to do science.

And the science shows that fully vaccinated people people are at no real risk. Not studies but actually data which every scientist knows is the real deal. I learned in university that when theory meets fact it can be ugly. In this case fact is better than theory. These vaccines are vey effective. Enough to stop the pandemic if everyone gets one.

If people follow the CDC guidelines and non-vaccinated people keep wearing masks while vaccinated people start living normal life everything will be fine. Surely you do not disagree with that.

Joe said he would trust science. He has. You are vaccinated there is a one in 10,000 chance you get Covid and your virus load will be too small to pass it on to vaccinated people.

[boston bean]

159. People will not follow the CDC recommendation.

How does this escape you.

[GulfCoast66]

167. It does not. But that my point.

CDC does the science. Politicians do the behavior modification.

The CDC tells us the science. That’s their job.

[boston bean]

168. Communities follow their recommendations.

You think it has zero impact?

[GulfCoast66]

183. Depends where you live. Means almost nothing in Florida

No mandates. No penalties for not wearing masks or following rules.

But again, the CDC just tells us the facts and science. And that shows us that it is safe for unvaccinated people to go out unmasked. Would you rather them hold that fact from us? Or lie?

[boston bean]

184. I would rather they had said yes it is safe for vaccinated persons

But because we still have a pandemic, all should continue to wear masks.

[GulfCoast66]

194. Fair enough. But telling people you are safe without a mask, but should still wear one

Would invite ridicule.

The problem is not the CDC. But the 30% of Americans who are bound and determined to go against any government recommendation. With that situation there is no effective way to protect Americans.

[CrackityJones75]

171. The people that aren't vaccinated WON't get vaccinated.

I am done putting myself and my family through extra measures because of these selfish pricks. My family is vaccinated and we have been doing the right things for 14 months. We cannot do another year like we have the last. If some people don’t want to vax then fuck them and let whatever consequences come their way. There is ver VERY little excuse for people not being vaccinated at this point.

IF there is a change in the virus and even vaxed people need to mask up we can go back to masks. Here in MN we loosened restrictions for a bit and then had to dial them back up for a time. But I for one am done bending over fo those that will not think of the common good. They can get sick. They can die. They can be just fine. It is THEIR gamble at this point.

[boston bean]

172. That is just not true.

[CrackityJones75]

179. What is not true?

[boston bean]

180. That the all unvaxed are anti vax or mask holes.

[CrackityJones75]

185. I said there is no excuse.

What excuse do people have of not getting vaccinated at this point? And if you DO have an excuse over 150 million people who have received at least one jab are supposed to put their lives on hold for you? No. That makes zero sense at all.

I am sorry if you somehow can’t get the vax because of medical reasons. I have a disease that doesn’t allow me to do certain things. Should the rest of the country be told they cannot do those things too? Of course not.

I tjink there are a LOT of folks who want to talk about democracy and freedom but then when it comes time to let that democracy and freedom happen they won’t walk that walk. I masked from March 13th and still do when I go into crowded areas. But if the science is telling me we I don’t have to at this point, then I am with the science.

If someone wants to lie and tell people they got the vax and didn’t just so they can go out without a mask that is their gamble. 150 million people have gotten at least one jab. I less than 3 weeks all of those will have gotten two and many millions more will have gotten their first.

It is time to stop shitting on the CDC and the Biden admin over this. You are literally doing the republicans job by spouting this nonsense.

[boston bean]

186. Umm a vaccine is not available for those under age of 12, immunocompromised

Cant get time off of work. Rural areas.

Christ this is a monumental task that isn’t just done In two months.

Many people right now only have their first vax.

[CrackityJones75]

189. Funny I got mine in a rural area.

And again like I said IF you do have an excuse, over 150 million people should not have to put their lives on hold. The reality is that the people that can’t get the vaccine should not be holding up others from living their lives. I find it to be likely a very VERY small amount of people that can’t get the vaccine.

Under 12. Again, thats fine keep your kids at home. Take care of YOUR responsibilities. Don’t make it incumbent on those that have done what was asked of them to take care of your responsibilities.

We only get so many years on this rock. We just gave up an entire one. Roughly 50% of the country has gotten vaccinated and some of you can’t let those people enjoy their lives after doing what was asked of them?

Long walk. Short pier.

[beaglelover]

190. Excellent post!

[boston bean]

191. It takes time. And everyone is not you.

[beaglelover]

173. Damn straight! Agree 100%.

[FirstLight]

9. here's where the SCIENCE doesn't jive...

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html#:~:text=As%20of%206%20a.m.%20EDT,according%20to%20the%20CDC's%20data.

As of 6 a.m. EDT May 14, a total of 120,258,637 Americans had been fully vaccinated, or 36.2 percent of the country's population, according to the CDC's data.

Herd Immunity and COVID:
https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4v2EBhCtARIsACan3nwjwjkCgcfVa7nc9tGEz2hDxYb9rHbhuW_f0juDwVSa1lwVdND9z-EaAitMEALw_wcB#

The percentage of people who need to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity varies with each disease. For example, herd immunity against measles requires about 95% of a population to be vaccinated. The remaining 5% will be protected by the fact that measles will not spread among those who are vaccinated. For polio, the threshold is about 80%. The proportion of the population that must be vaccinated against COVID-19 to begin inducing herd immunity is not known. This is an important area of research and will likely vary according to the community, the vaccine, the populations prioritized for vaccination, and other factors.

Seems pretty obvious that 30-whatever percent is not even CLOSE

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Bad Analysis

Reported numbers show 10% of the population has contracted COVID.
Herd immunity needs to include those people with body chemistry making them substantially resistant to attack and reducing the ease of viral replication.
Admittedly, that's an unknown. But, the actual year long outcome data guarantees it's not zero.
The herd immunity doesn't require 80% vaccination rate. It requires 80% resistance, whether naturally or medically obtained.
Also, those herd immunity requirements, by the admission of the authors, is based upon assumption of unknowns.
So, you're using educated guesses to refute data already known by real world outcomes among vaccinated people.
As a retired scientist, I know good analysis of data when I see it.
This isn't it.

[boston bean]

15. Umm, again, I had covid, and got the vax. Which group you counting me in?

And that is same for four in my household.

So you cannot make the assumptions you are making.

[FirstLight]

24. ok thanks...

but if we're factoring in thos who have had it and recovered, don't they also lose immunity after time? so that's a whole additional factor and variant to consider.

Yeah, so I guess my idea of the % vs what we know of herd...but even adding in the additional people/percentage, it's still not even 50% of the population, right?

That still seems really low for me.

[former9thward]

66. No, not right.

The 10% figure is KNOWN Covid cases. People who got tested and were found to have Covid. Both the CDC and WHO estimate that there is about a 4 to 1 ratio of Covid cases to known covid cases. The rest were asymptomatic or had minor symptoms and did not get tests.

So that means around 120 million to 150 million covid cases in the U.S. Plus those who are vaccinated means the U.S. is around 70% or more either vaccinated or they have had covid. Yes there will be some overlap of people who have had covid and also vaccinated but the figure is well over 50%, most certainly at least 60% and rising by the day.

[FirstLight]

89. I guess it's the math

Im not getting it. but that's ok

[Ms. Toad]

102. Then you should recognize the flaws in the CDC's use of the data.

The data was acquired with mitigation in effect, for the most part - people wearing masks, social distancing, not gathering together indoors.

As the mitigation is removed, everyone (including those who are vaccinated) will be exposed to increasing contacts that are capable of causing COVID. A 4000% reduction of risk sounds nice, but the risk is still there and the CDC essentially authorized a dramatic numerical increase in the numbers of vaccinated people (and others) who will be infected by COVID by dramatically increasing the number of interactions capable of causing COVID. More will die, more will be hospitalized, and more will have permanent or long-term disabilities.

.0006 (risk of an mRNA vaccinated person contracting COVID and dying based on May 3 data) x a small number of potentially COVID-causing contacts is pretty irrelevant. But when you increase the number of potentially COVID-causing contacts, by removing community mitigation, at some point you create a lot of sick people who are needlessly contracting COVID and dying. If each of us who is vaccinated is exposed because no one is mitigating, that's 250,000 cases of COVID, 22,500 hospitalized, and 3,000 dead - and a significant number with heart damage. The vast majority of those are preventable with community mitigation.

[Happy Hoosier]

76. Fully vaxxed people wearing masks...

Will affect infection rates almost not at all.

[boston bean]

78. This is about the recommendation.

And how it gives free reign to the maskholes. And what brings with it.

[Happy Hoosier]

86. I get that... but it seems to me....

That recommendations should not be based on maskholes being dishonest fucks, but on the science.

But I, for one, am in favor of vaccine mandates, including proof of vaccination where appropriate.

[boston bean]

88. When under 40% of the country is vaxed I think it does come into play.

60% of this country are not maskholes.

[Zeitghost]

206. By deffinition

Maskholes aren't following guidelines as it is.

[uponit7771]

17. The science ***DOES*** say spread will get worse if those who aren't vaxed don't social ...

... distance.

Sounds like science ... IS ... trusted when it comes to individuals safety who've been vaxed but not the decision to slow spread among those who've not been vaxed

[marie999]

20. Even if you have been vaccinated you still have a 5% chance of getting the virus.

120 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. That means 6 million vaccinated people will still get the virus. How many children can not get vaccinated because of their age? The Mayo Clinic says most children will not get as sick as adults. Most is not good enough. That's not paralyzing fear, that is a concern for our children or in our case our 13 great-grandchildren.

[beaglelover]

28. But you won't die or be hospitalized if you are vaxed.

[Blue_true]

151. A very tiny percentage of vaxxed people could still die from COVID19.

But your chances of staying alive are much better if you have been vaccinated.

[beaglelover]

152. Very very tiny percentage.

I’m fully vaccinated and willing to take that risk.

[Blue_true]

153. Correct, it is very tiny.

I am fully vaxxed, but I will continue to wear a mask when around people inside where I can’t social distance.

[uponit7771]

160. You can still get loved ones sick, if people have small children for instance

[womanofthehills]

110. You are assuming that everyone who gets the vaccine makes lots of antibodies

- not true. I agree with you but I think even higher numbers of vaxinated people will get variants. Everyone’s immune system is different. The young might reach 95% protection but the older you are the lower your initial protection might be. A new study printed in Forbes says each month your percentage lowers some and that by 6 months your protection will more likely be at 50%.

[boston bean]

121. I am sure elderly persons do not make as many.

[luvtheGWN]

127. A 5% chance of getting the virus,

as opposed to a 95% chance of NOT getting the virus.

One has to be very careful when interpreting the "chance". As someone very wise once said "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Sometimes we can only depend on common sense amongst our fellow citizens -- sadly enough. Every single person I've talked to -- family members, friends and acquaintances -- has agreed with me that we shall continue to wear our masks indoors, even after being fully vaccinated, UNTIL the pandemic is considered over. Frankly, I really enjoyed not getting a cold this past winter! And I'm pleased to tell you that I have yet to encounter anyone not wearing a mask, over the past year and 2 months!

[GulfCoast66]

130. 5% chance? Where are you seeing this?

Looking at the last numbers I have seen with over 100,000,000 vaccinated there is around 10,000 breakthrough cases. This is actually data. Not studies. If my math is correct that is a one in 10,000 chance.


Please send me numbers based on actual life data, not pre-vaccine studies that show a 5% chance.


Because after 6 months we have real data. Which is different from scientific studies.

[fishwax]

132. I've read 0.05%, but I haven't seen a figure as high as 5% ... where are you getting that?

The studies that I've seen/read about, iirc, said that breakthrough cases might be possible in 0.05%, which is about one in two thousand. So of 120 million vaccinated Americans, about 60 thousand would get the virus. (And in the vast majority of those cases the infection would be mild or even asymptomatic, because the vaccine apparently significantly reduces the affect of the virus in those cases where it doesn't prevent infection.)

[beaglelover]

25. I know. Their position makes NO sense!

Wear a mask if you want to. I’m fully vaccinated and safe and I won’t be wearing one as soon as it is now mandatory to do so.

[boston bean]

31. Mild covid cases can cause health issues for that person forever.

[Gore1FL]

40. The good science that says it will protect us assumes that people are getting it in the first place.

Anti-vax, anti-mask people sort of blow this underlying premise out-of-the-water.

[Bmoboy]

62. a vaccine is not magic

A good vaccine will prepare your body to fight off a serious Covid 19 infection.

A good vaccine will not prevent you from being exposed to someone actively shedding Covid 19 virus.

A good vaccine will not prevent you from carrying and unknowingly shedding Covid 19 virus.

The more individuals who are actively shedding Covid 19 virus even if they are asymptomatic, who are not wearing a mask or practicing the whole dance of distancing and Purell, the greater the chance that you or someone you know is exposed.

There is no Star Trek magic beam to kill Covid 19.

We need to starve it to death. Offer less potential exposures. Wear a damn mask.

[iemanja]

93. Less than half the country are vaccinated

That isn't adequate for herd immunity.

[FirstLight]

12. another good point...

will we end up needing boosters for the rest of our lives (anyone over 50)...?

COVID isn't over, and there's YEARS of science and research and tracking to do... WHO is still admitting they are at the tip of the iceberg, as much as they know about viruses. and it's no so much the virus, but human behavior that gums up the data IMO

[womanofthehills]

116. Forbes has an article out about this

A new study said at six months your protection goes down to 50% for Moderna and Pfizer and under 50% for J & j and that you should get a booster at six months. However, the booster they are testing now does not include B.1.617.2 - (the Variant from India with the worrisome double mutation) -

[liberal_mama]

193. Maybe Booster shots are off the table now if we can run around maskless now!

I mean, who knows if our antibodies are still working? I guess this isn't something we have to worry about anymore.

[LW1977]

16. Thread trashed!

[beaglelover]

30. Good move!

[USALiberal]

142. Like yours were? Nt

[beaglelover]

150. I have no idea if some people trashed my thread.

And I could not give 2 shits if they did.

[Treefrog]

187. You're all over all these threads.

We get it. you’re against masking. Why not be happy and go on your way? Do you have any idea what you sound like to many of us? Did the mask wearing really bother you that much? Or did you ever even wear one?

[beaglelover]

188. So are you. It's a discussion board. You clearly want us to wear masks until we die.

To answer your questions. Yes, I have always worn a mask where and when it was required. No, it did not bother me too much other than if I was exercising rigorously at the gym. Now that I'm fully vaxed, I will not wear one once L.A. country says fully vaxed people do not need to wear one.

Why do you love wearing masks so much? It is NOT a natural way to live.

[boston bean]

199. Covid isn't a natural way to live either.

[tenderfoot]

209. "It is NOT a natural way to live."

Oh I know. Having consideration for the health of others is truly horrible!!!!

[beaglelover]

210. I'm fully vaccinated. How am I a risk to others???

[tenderfoot]

211. I'm glad you think of only yourself.

eom

[beaglelover]

216. Great! So I'm not a risk to others. Thanks!

[tenderfoot]

217. Not until you are.

Must be all that oregano oil and yoga.

[Mr.Bill]

18. Here's where we are:

I was at the grocery store yesterday, and evryone was wearing masks. There was on elderly lady who was not. A masked couple politely asked her why she wasn't wearing a mask. She said: "Haven't you heard? Nobody has to wear masks anymore they just said so on TV."

Of course, she was wrong, but there are a lot of even well-meaning people who are misinformed. I don't care to have to educate people every time I go shopping.

I live in a Northern California county with a population of 60,000. Miraculously, we have gotten just about 100% voluntary compliance with masks. I can count the number of unmasked people I have seen indoors on one hand in the last year. We have only had 43 deaths here since the pandemic was declared.

I'm afraid that has just been thrown out the window. I hope I am wromg.

[bucolic_frolic]

19. They were never going to get vaxxed anyway

Now they won't have Biden as their perceived barrier. So maybe some of them will flip.

[boston bean]

22. So, we are risking more surges for a psychological experiment?

I hope it works. Highly doubtful though.

[liberal_mama]

113. The psychological experiment will not work

I truly hope that isn't their reason for doing this. All they have done is empowered and delighted the anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers.

[SheltieLover]

23. Wholeheartedly Agree!

Fodder for qpukes to work around mask regulations.

Even if fully vaccinated folks were shown to be 100% protected, why get rid of masks?



I knew CDC was blatently lying when they told us all not to mask up at the start & this doesn't feel right either.

I'll stand with the 700+ epidemiologists who intend to mask up for at least another year.

Imo, the CDC has again disgraced itself.

[SMC22307]

174. CDC "lying," CDC "disgraced,"...

damn, that's a rant worthy of Meghan McCain!

[SheltieLover]

176. Cdc admitted to lying about masks at beginning of pandemic.

I'll sit back & see how it plays this time.

[Zeitghost]

207. Are you really..

Are you really comparing the Biden CDC to the Trump CDC? Really?

[SheltieLover]

208. Are you really questioning what they said?

[George II]

212. "A rant worthy of Meghan McCain"? That's quite rude and offensive.

[brooklynite]

26. Care to provide some evidence?

You just accused Biden, Faucu and the CDC of caving to pressure from the RW. Provide it.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

27. I'm vaccinated.

I have essentially no fear of getting Covid. I will do without a mask when I can. Those who want to continue wearing them can do so.

[FailureToCommunicate]

29. Yeah, not good advice. I know two friends who have just tested positive after being fully vaxed...

The problem with "95% protection"...is that pesky FIVE percent!

[boston bean]

32. The recommendation should have been metric based.

Low number of cases.

Hell we aren’t even at fauci’s number where he said he would be comfortable to lift the mask recommendations.

[Yavin4]

46. But did they get seriously ill and require hospitalization? n/t

[uponit7771]

161. Even if that's not the case they can spread it to small children or others who can't get vaxed now

[FailureToCommunicate]

181. No, but each lost days of work being quarantined. Both (separately) got it from a positive stranger

one, from a teacher, one from a contractor.

So, yes, the vacine kept them getting sick, but protocols keep them out of work.

[SheltieLover]

177. I hope your friends are ok!

Yup, that 5% is a factor that should not be ignored, imo.

Bad avice to lose masks!

[FailureToCommunicate]

182. They are. Thanks. No real symptoms, but they each lost work while quarantining.

[SheltieLover]

196. Glad they are ok!

I was just going to post & ask if fully vaccinated, not wearing masks, still need to quarrantine, since Dr. Fauci has proclaimed fully vaccinated dead-ends" for covid.

[FailureToCommunicate]

218. Each fully vaxed (and wearing masks when likely contacted positive persons) but their work...

places have strict rules in place if tested positive, even without symptoms.

(Two friends, two differnet workplaces, contracted from two unrelated sources AFTER themselves being fully vaxed)

[Bluesaph]

33. Let the mask holes be mask holes

They are the ones at risk. If we are vaccinated we don’t have a whole lot to worry about.

We will reach herd immunity on the backs of the Covidiots!

[uponit7771]

162. Nursing organizations condemn the CDC rec, CDC wont be working on maskholes post memorial day

[speaknow]

34. One should ask, why did I get vaccinated? I think

it would be not to get sick or worse, and not
have to wear a mask. Anyone who is not vaccinated
and doesn't wear a mask, well that's their problem
to deal with. If your in a crowd of people and some
are not wearing a mask and have not been vaccinated
again, that's their problem, your protected because
you got vaccinated. Why should anybody that has
been vaccinated be forced to wear a mask because
others refuse to get vaccinated and don't wear a
mask, they have to deal with it so be it.

[boston bean]

35. There are many reasons. Look them up.

[Yavin4]

45. Please provide some evidence

that vaccinated people have to worry about the unvaccinated.

[boston bean]

48. Children, immunocompromised.

You are missing the point completely.

The recommendation is the issue because it allows unvaxed persons to not wear a mask putting others at risk. Not just little ole me. I don’t usually just think about myself. I consider others.

Can you tell who has been vaccinated or not by looking at them? If you can please let me know.

[Yavin4]

61. Children 12 and older will soon be able to get the vaccine.

Children for the most part get a milder version of the virus.

The immunocompromised do face challenges and should continue to wear masks to protect themselves if needed. But that should not mean that everyone else should be forced into wearing masks.

[boston bean]

64. Do you know and is there science on the possible long term efffects on children who have had a mild

case. Nope. Cause it’s a new disease. However we do know adults have long term effects with just a mild case.

[Yavin4]

67. So, your solution is that everyone should wear masks indefintely?

Because we won't know the answer to the question of long term effects.

[boston bean]

70. No. Biden said we would have 70% vaxed by July.

I would have been happy to hear this news then.

[Yavin4]

82. But the long term effects will still be a question in July. No? n/t

[boston bean]

83. Umm we are under 40% vaxed right now. 70% would be much much better.

[mathematic]

195. Biden said 70% of adults at least 1 shot by July, we're at 60% now n/t

(ref https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations)

[boston bean]

198. Yeah. Are we at 70%?

[mathematic]

201. I'm correcting your misleading rhetoric about Biden's claim

You keep comparing biden's goal of 70% with "40%" throughout this thread. According to biden's metric we're at 60% right now, not 40%, which I literally wrote in my subject line. I supplied the reference to the full data. Feel free to argue about other things with other people.

[boston bean]

202. Does it change the fact that less than 40% of people are fully vaccinated?

Pretty sure it does not.

One dose is not two doses and does not convey immunity. But if we hit seventy of 1 shot we can be assured we moving toward the low number set for herd immunity. Within weeks.

[Ace Rothstein]

99. Agreed. As a vaccinated parent of a 10 year old, I'm not really worried about COVID.

COVID for kids is basically the flu. DU needs to calm the f down.

[uponit7771]

163. 13% of kids have long term effects of COVID and even if they didn't who in the fuck would

... want their kid to get it ?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/03/18/virus-longhaul-coronavirus-children/

Really DU?!

[sheshe2]

222. This.

Thank you, uponit.

[ashredux]

36. You discount new data...it is not on some political timeline...

New data becomes available...things change...

[boston bean]

41. What changed with the covid situation in the US in like one week?

This policy allows the unvaxed to to go around unmasked. Period. End of story.

Less than 40% of Americans have had the vax fully.

Biden said we would hit 70% early July. What was the rush right now.

This recommendation will mean more spikes, not less.

It really never had anything to do with the vaccinated. I was fine to wear the mask until more were vaccinated.

Masking for all was the only way companies, businesses etc could make it work.

It is a Free for all now.

[ashredux]

51. World wide data on effectiveness of the vaccines...as well as new US data

Fauci isn’t a stooge...he is real

[boston bean]

53. I am sorry but he is not infallible. He essentially lied to the public under trump

Saying mask would not help and then admitted it was,so people wouldn’t hoard and the health system needed them.

[ashredux]

55. Sorry..but I don't think your data is correct....what lie?

[boston bean]

56. It is well documented. Look it up.

[ashredux]

59. Ah...No...you made a claim. Support it. Rather simple...

[boston bean]

60. Nope. You question it you do your own research.

[ashredux]

63. You just lost this one...if you make a claim and can't support it, or even say what was a lie..

You are done...toast...irrelevant...what is your source?

[boston bean]

69. I'm not playing some game. You question something someone says on the internet,

you go and prove it false. I’m not wasting time fetching you info on something so widely known.

[ashredux]

71. False? What Lie? You said he lied...name the lie.

If you can not..then leave this site

[boston bean]

72. I did already.

[ashredux]

74. Then why not answer my question....what lie? You can't...name your source...you won't

[boston bean]

81. Because I don't answer to you.

[boston bean]

117. Alright. I changed my mind and decided to help you out. Here you go.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-outdated-video-masks/fact-checkoutdated-video-of-fauci-saying-theres-no-reason-to-be-walking-around-with-a-mask-idUSKBN26T2TR

[Cetacea]

123. And who could forget months of "Masks do not protect you. They protect others".

Trump knew it was airborne in February...

[boston bean]

124. If he knew. How did fauci not know.

I like the guy. I listen to him. But he is not infallible nor is he immune from political pressure.

[Treefrog]

178. All you have to do is watch footage from early in the pandemic.

Did you really miss all that? Fauci continually said masks were not of any use for protection. Then he did a 180.

[Evolve Dammit]

75. Agreed.

[Justice matters.]

133. Who are the unvaxed and unmasked (in majority)?

70% Republican voters who watch tuckems KKKaRl$on on fux $nooze.

These covidiots will never ever consent to:

1. Wear masks

2. Get vaccinated

Never did and never will.

Let them deal with their own choices... (you and we have no means to force them do both).

Maybe that will make them not physically able to vote for the republiQons again...

[boston bean]

134. The percentage of people not fully vaxed is way more than that.

[Justice matters.]

144. Those who truly want the vaccines are perhaps on the way to get them.

And they will probably keep masking up until they'll be fully vaccinated because they are not covidiots.

That's not the case for the KKKaRl$on vieweR$ and will never be the case unless you are able to throw them all in jail...

[VarryOn]

39. I'll go with President Biden on this...

He's been hard core thus far. If he's convinced it's safe to go sans a mask in many situations, I'm on board. Personally. I don't like wear ring them and look for any reason to take them off.

[beaglelover]

42. Agree 100%.

[boston bean]

43. I hate wearing one.

But would have gladly continued wearing to keep cases down. Even though I am fully vaxed.

I know i am low risk at this point, but this recommendation will likely cause spikes and children can’t even get vaxed yet.

[VarryOn]

52. I'm with you...but...

Sometimes we're called to go above and beyond. I'll do it!

[Yavin4]

44. I disagree.

I mean really, who here who has masked, got vaxed an been responsible not just for themselves but for others would have been upset wearing masks for another few months? I suppose NONE.

Quite a few actually. Mask mandates have disrupted many businesses who are operating at lesser capacity.

But the lunatics now have zero reason to get their vax. No social punishment for putting all of at risk for over a year by being maskholes.

Now they get to continue on and sicken more people and the CDC has essentially given their blessing. If the CDC or Biden think these maskholes are gonna wear a mask now or get vaxed, I question their common sense.

If you are vaccinated, you are protected which is what the CDC just said. You don't have to worry about the unvaccinated.

This was an abrupt departure from what we were being told just a week ago. And yeah I ampissed they caved to those motherfuckers. There is NO way this was not politically motivated and we were promised science.

You have to provide some evidence of this assertion.

[Woodycall]

47. Think it all the way through...

Liberals, progressives, and all other thinking people that understand and believe in science will get the vaccine, and continue to wear masks when it is prudent to do so. Virtually ALL of them will be just fine, even the very few that get it even after being vaccinated. RW nutters, maskholes, and other assorted miscreants are probably about maxed-out vaccine-wise by now. They are not going to wear masks and they are not going to get the vaccine. Period. They will continue to get Covid and a lot of them will die as a result (which is fine by me). However, the ones that survive will have essentially the same immunity as vaccinated people. That adds to the "herd" as well. If they choose to risk their lives and the lives of their loved ones to get there, so be it but, the numbers needed for herd immunity will be there either way. That's the little "unmentioned thing". Fuck em' I say!

[boston bean]

50. Why are you thinking I am anti science. My views are on solid science ground.

Stop making it about you personally and think of others and the risk this puts them at. Because it surely does. And it doesn’t just put the maskholes at risk.

[Woodycall]

87. Not aimed at you personally

Just an observation and an opinion...

[Kahuna]

49. The M$M and those same doctors who told us last year that we didn't need masks...

have been on cable tv mask shaming the president and those around him for wearing masks. It's infuriating to me.

[FarPoint]

57. I'm fine with this ...

I have been fully vaccinated since 1/21/21...Moderna dose #2....I am confident the vaccine works...I may continue to wear a mask in stores, gas stations and with patients...but I am good, I feel safe...I just want to protect others around me... I am comfortable that the vaccine will kick in my immune system if I am exposed...

Relax and unmask as desired now...America is opening up...the treatment is for everyone to get vaccinated...if ya don't...then you choose poorly...

[Baked Potato]

58. I don't agree. IMO Joe Biden made a good, rational, common sense decision.

We are at the point of gimmicky incentives being offered for getting poked. Good time to call it and leave it up to Americans to do the right thing. I don’t think they caved. I think the President threw them back on their heels.

[EarlG]

65. Interesting, balanced article from Gizmodo on this topic

Doesn’t dismiss or mock people’s concerns, but provides a lot of facts. Some choice quotes below. Lots of links at the source article.

There Are Reasons to Worry About the Great Unmasking, but Vaxxed People Spreading Covid Isn't One

At the start of the vaccine rollout late last year, experts were generally cautious about the potential risk of transmission from vaccinated people to others ... However, real-world evidence has since made the answer to this question abundantly clear, at least for the mRNA vaccines developed by Moderna and Pfizer that nearly all vaccinated Americans have taken: The vaccines are incredibly effective at preventing both illness and infection. Multiple studies, looking at different populations like health care workers and college employees, have all found very low rates of confirmed infection among the fully vaccinated—as low as less than 1% for some studies.

(snip)

It’s possible that someone could transmit covid-19 post-vaccination—and vaccinated people are still advised to take precautions when in close contact with high-risk individuals—but those rare events will have no impact on the pandemic’s spread within the U.S., which is currently being driven by the many people still unvaccinated (about 54% of the total U.S. population). It’s this group who is now bearing the worst of the pandemic, with hospitals reporting that over 99% of their recent covid-19 patients are unvaccinated.

(snip)

Another misconception regarding the vaccines has to do with the variants of the coronavirus that have arisen since late last year. Scientists are rightfully concerned and keeping a close eye on the development of variants with mutations that might allow the virus to evade vaccine-provided immunity. Down the line, the right sort of mutations could even necessitate booster shots. But right now, whether it’s the New York variant or the UK variant (which has since become the dominant strain in the U.S.), there is simply no evidence that our vaccines here aren’t working against the virus.

(snip)

Whatever happens, no one should be blamed for feeling wary about the near future. Everyone is also still required to wear masks when using mass transit and at airports, hospitals, and wherever local laws and private businesses still dictate. But just keep in mind that if you’re vaccinated and unmasked, you’re much more protected against covid-19 than you were with a mask on and unvaccinated. And you’re definitely not a ticking time bomb for transmission.

The people who need to be concerned are the people who are choosing not to vaccinate. They are definitely putting themselves at risk — but all the data points to the fact that they are barely a threat to those of us who have been vaccinated.

As the number of people vaccinated grows, along with the number of unvaccinated people who develop natural protection by getting infected, the virus will hopefully continue to dwindle.

[boston bean]

77. Hi earl I appreciate the article. But this is not about the already vaxed.

It is about the recommendation and the issues that arise from it.

[EarlG]

91. I understand

But the concern seems to be that unvaxxed will be wandering around without masks, and that that is a problem? The data says that it is only a problem for the very people who are wandering around unvaccinated and unmasked — they are barely a threat to the vaccinated population.

Masks were the only line of defense before the vaccines arrived, but the vaccines now provide significantly better protection than masks do. If people are choosing to put themselves at risk by not vaccinating, they will reap the potential consequences, but they’re no longer threatening the rest of us (at least according to the best data we now have).

That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t continue to wear masks if they choose. I’ll be keeping mine on for a while in public spaces (everyone at my local grocery store was masked today).

[boston bean]

95. Because children and immunocompromised.

Plus more unmasked maskholes with no pressure to wear them will create more breakthrough infections.

Plus Biden said 70% for July. I would have felt much better about this at that point in time.

I would say there are about 20% maskholes out there. And that is my guesstimate. So there is work to be done and not all are hopeless cases. And then add in the millions where a vax is not available to them or are unable to receive.

And I am pissed off to the umpteenth extent that maskholes can just be maskholes and antivaxers and can just lie and pretend they were vaccinated. Putting these population at risk.

[EarlG]

105. Children and the immunocompromised will continue to mask

Unless they (or their parents in the case of kids) are irresponsible maskholes, in which case they have surely already been putting themselves (and their kids) at risk for the past year, so nothing really changes for them. Either they were already masking and they’ll continue to be responsible and take precautions, or they were already risking their lives and will continue to do so. And yes, maskholes can lie so they don’t have to wear a mask, but they’re only threatening themselves and other maskholes.

The CDC’s guidance for the vaccinated is that by and large you are now safe. You’re at extremely low risk of catching Covid, and you won’t die from it if you do catch it, nor will you spread it to someone else. It’s going to take a while before we all FEEL truly safe, no doubt, but the science says we’re heading in the right direction.

[boston bean]

108. I,agree on the science. I do not agree with the timing.

[EarlG]

115. I hear you

and I hope they weren't premature. Here in Maryland the numbers really are looking promising though. The average number of daily deaths as of today is just 12, in a state of 6 million people. Over the past 14 days deaths are down 29%. There were still 1,000 people hospitalized, but that number is down 24% over 14 days, and cases are down 51%. We have 42% fully vaccinated here, 53% with one dose. I do hope we're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Time will tell...

[boston bean]

120. I am in MA. And I had covid and I had Moderna x2. I am sure I am safe.

And MA is almost at 70%. But our cases are still not at their lowest rate of June last year. Although I suspect they will be in the next few weeks.

[sheshe2]

220. The numbers are down because of the mask mandates.

The CDC:



Then: March 29 2021.

CDC Director Goes Off Script, Warns Of “Impending Doom”; Fears U.S. Will Suffer Europe’s Fate Amid Spring Covid Spike

“When I first started at CDC two months ago,” said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky on Monday, “I promised I would tell the truth, even when it wasn’t the news you wanted to hear. Now is one of those times when I have to share the truth and I have to hope and trust you will listen.”

Dr. Walensky then grew emotional as she recalled on her experiences treating Covid-19 patients who were alone at the end of their lives because loved ones could not risk infection.

Speaking during a White House briefing Dr. Walensky said, “We have so much to look forward to, so much promise and potential of where we are and so much reason for hope,” she said. “But right now, I’m scared.”

https://deadline.com/2021/03/cdc-director-covid-impending-doom-spike-1234723897/


Just six weeks later, take off your masks. Yes, the fully vaccinated were who she was talking about. However the anti-maskers and states are taking that literally.

Take off your mask if fully vaccinated...she is relying on the honor system. The honor system. Frankly I do not believe the honor system is based on science. There is no honor among MAGA's, Q's or antivaccers.

This is way to soon to open up the country.

[Sur Zobra]

192. Those who refuse to get vaccinated

are still a problem for hospitals if they get sick. They’re still a problem for their families, still a problem for society. I’m afraid of the variants because of the 5% chance that I still have of getting infected. Mild symptoms? I don’t want to get covid, period! I’ll stay masked for awhile yet

[dalton99a]

84. +1. Also, the CDC just clarified that K-12 schools should maintain mask requirements for everyone

[EarlG]

92. That's the right call because under 12s can't get vaxxed yet

So it would make no sense for them to be unprotected. Hopefully by the fall, or the end of the year, they will be rolling the vaccine out to all age groups.

[Hortensis]

203. Also +1. This step toward normality is possible because of competent government

and because of the many millions of people who got, and are getting, vaccinated as it became possible. Because of that, our nation is ABLE to take this big step toward normality now. We're even hoping our younger grandchildren will be vaccinated by the new school year.

My husband and I will also still carry masks and wear them whenever we feel better doing so, also pins reassuring those who care that we're vaccinated. Our decision, and we're not confused.

Otherwise,

[Skittles]

73. I agree

and it's disconcerting seeing so many DUers seemingly celebrating this decision

[Lettuce Be]

79. There needed to be a benefit for getting the vaccine

Telling people to get it, but you still have to practice social distancing and mask wearing was not working for some. Those who wanted the vaccine have likely gotten it. Those on the fence, may, just may, be more likely now.

There's no right or wrong answer -- they're doing the best they can under the circumstances, IMO

[Mr.Bill]

90. Problem is, they just gave people a reason

to lie about it. And many will.

[Ace Rothstein]

100. 99% of those people are never getting vaccinated.

I don't understand the end game here.

[Mr.Bill]

104. Make them wear masks, don't allow them on public transportation,

don't hire them, etc. We can't make them get vaccinated, but we can make them wish they had.

And yes, I understand exceptions need to be made for people who have medical reasons to not be vaccinated.

[Ace Rothstein]

106. The rest of us don't need to continue going out of our way in the meantime.

Last edited Sun May 16, 2021, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

[boston bean]

107. I do not believe that to be the case.

[FloridaBlues]

80. I believe they have more conculsive studies then we have read

It's pretty simple wear a mask if your not vaxed until u do. Abide by local guidelines in your state until they catch up to new guidelines

[Ace Rothstein]

94. You really don't want COVID to end, do you?

Too many people here are OK with masking and social distancing forever. A loser of a stance for the party.

[boston bean]

97. Ridiculous.

[beaglelover]

147. Very true!

[sheshe2]

223. Hey, Ace.

Did you know that the OP had COVID? Weeks upon weeks. Some symptoms last for months and we still don't know all the future damage it can cause.

I find your response to BB insensitive.

[rockfordfile]

96. I agree

[deurbano]

103. My daughter, Sascha, was quoted in this AP article (below) on masking. She was a Biden delegate

for the Dem National convention, but disagrees with moving this quickly, especially indoor, since she doesn't trust that everyone who claims to be vaccinated will actually be vaccinated... and she is cautious about breakthrough infection, especially with variants. She has started going to outdoor restaurants (in low positivity rate SF), and seeing other vaccinated people... but she's still cautious, especailly given her health history.

https://apnews.com/article/california-coronavirus-pandemic-health-eb76accaf64f7fefc268f563b2341c79?te=1&nl=california-today&emc=edit_ca_20210514

....Disability rights activist Sascha Bittner, 47, has cerebral palsy, uses a wheelchair and survived lymphoma. She plans to keep wearing a mask and stay away from people she doesn’t know unless she is certain she’s in a place where everyone else is vaccinated.

She wishes the Biden administration had waited until more people had been vaccinated nationally.

“I will mask up and keep socially distanced for as long as I see fit. I also won’t be around people lax in their protocols yet,” the San Francisco resident said by email. “I’m just not there yet, and I REALLY hope people will see we aren’t quite there yet.”...

[H2O Man]

112. Thank you Sascha!

Your daughter is right.

[dweller]

109. Still

almost 26k new cases and ~500 new deaths today, and that’s with 16 states
NOT REPORTING ...

we’re not out of the woods yet

✌🏻

[Hekate]

119. My gods, people, just chill out. THIS is what you are all going to throw Biden under the bus for?

Just continue to wear your own damn masks! I certainly will.

[eissa]

125. Anyone not vaccinated by now

most likely has no plans to ever get a shot. What are we supposed to do - remain masked and locked up because anti-vaxxers don’t want to be microchipped? We can’t be held hostage by their lunacy. If you’re vaccinated, your risk of catching COVID are low, and even if you do get it, the symptoms are not as dire. It’s time to open back up and return to some semblance of normalcy.

[boston bean]

126. What percentage of anti vax people are ther in the US? Do you know?

In 2019 84% of people felt it was important to get their children vaccinated.

So do you think that translates into the remaining not vaxed for covid?

[Grasswire2]

129. WaPo says Biden was not informed of the decision/announcement or involved in it?

Link to tweet

?s=20

[boston bean]

131. I can't read the article, but if this was the case I am appalled.

[Grasswire2]

136. I can't at the moment either.

Paypal has screwed up my subscription to WaPo, which costs a dollar a week on the special.

But I sent the link to someone who did read it and said the announcement was "botched" but not meant to be screwed up.

[Grasswire2]

138. "error not deliberate" the person who read it said to me. nt

[boston bean]

141. In what way was it wrong?

[Grasswire2]

145. we need someone to post excerpt here nt

[appalachiablue]

143. I just finished reading this article 10 mins

ago and came away confused and a bit concerned. 'Politics' this week

[boston bean]

148. Can u cut and paste it for us?

[appalachiablue]

157. Partial, no space for the full 'timeline' & extras:

‘The right decision wrongly handled’: Inside the Biden administration’s abrupt reversal on masks,' Washington Post, May 15, 2021. - EXCERPTS:

During her opening statement before a Senate health committee Tuesday, Rochelle Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, was adamant that the Biden administration’s masking and social distancing policies remained sound.. Walensky ticked off a series of statistics to support the CDC’s current guidance. She noted that only a third of the country was fully vaccinated, stressed the high rates of cases in many counties and ended with a vague comment that the agency works to review and update their formal advice. Left unsaid by Walensky was that she had already made a decision the night before — approving a recommendation Monday from CDC officials to significantly overhaul its guidance to no longer require fully vaccinated individuals to wear masks or physically distance in most cases.

.. The revised guidance — which was not publicly announced until Thursday — marked a dramatic turning point in the nation’s 14-month battle with the coronavirus pandemic and sent the clearest signal yet the country could begin returning to normal. It was a significant acceleration of the schedule President Biden had set earlier in the month, saying that he expected the country to move toward normalcy on July 4, when he hopes that 70 % of the country’s adult population will have at least one shot of the vaccine. But the huge policy turnaround caught senior White House and administration officials, medical experts, elected officials and business leaders completely off guard, and prompted some physicians to criticize the move as premature.

Some Democratic governors were angered by the White House’s rollout, arguing the move effectively passed the buck to states and businesses to implement the new rules without any assistance.. Despite White House chief of staff Ron Klain and Jeff Zients, the administration’s covid coordinator, regularly quizzing health officials on when vaccinated Americans could safely take off their masks, the CDC did not inform the White House about the updated guidance until late Wednesday — leaving some senior officials frustrated at how abruptly they were informed. Zients was told of the impending policy by Walensky around 6 p.m. that night, according to a CDC official, while aides said others in the West Wing weren’t notified until around 9 p.m.

Biden himself was not briefed until Thursday morning, officials said.

And when White House officials asked what they felt were basic questions — such as what the new guidance meant for businesses and children under 12 not yet eligible for vaccines — they felt CDC officials did not have sufficient answers. They also worried that the mixed messages over the course of the week would leave many Americans confused and key questions unanswered.. The CDC officially put out the news at 2 p.m. Thursday during a regular covid briefing. Around 2:40 p.m., White House staff received an email informing them that fully vaccinated employees didn’t need to keep wearing masks. As administration officials digested the updated guidance on Thursday, they scrambled to prepare for Biden to address the nation and announce the changes. The Rose Garden was prepared as the venue for the address by midmorning. Reporters learned that Biden would be speaking about 2 hours before he was set to give his address.

The president, in a jubilant mood, declared the significant milestone in an afternoon speech at the Rose Garden, where he appeared without a mask with Vice President Harris...

More, https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-right-decision-wrongly-handled-inside-the-biden-administrations-abrupt-reversal-on-masks/ar-BB1gLNLP

[Grasswire2]

158. thank you

Gotta wonder why they rolled it out before WH was fully informed.

[Blue_true]

149. The CDC appears to be basing decisions on science.

Science is a “observe, measure, test hypothesis, make preliminary conclusion” dynamic. Often decisions need to be made with the data and conclusions that are at hand.

I know that in my case, I plan to continue wearing a mask when I am around people, until the country numerically reaches herd immunity via vaccination or past sickness antibodies.

[GulfCoast66]

155. Fully support this move.

We now have more than just studies of the Vaccine in trials. We have real life evidence. Over 100,000,000 million subjects in this study.

If fully vaccinated you have a one in 10,000 chance of getting Covid. Just under 1 in 1,000,000 chance of dying from it. And the Asymptomatic cases have such a low virus load they are unlikely to pass it on. That is what the CDC has to consider. So they correctly said fully vaccinated people are safe. Because we are.

The CDC does not consider these odds enough to take drastic actions.

But now the heart of the matter. The unvaccinated and the dishonest and anti maskers. They will not followed the rules. That’s not what scientist do. It’s up to politicians to change behavior. Not scientists. We state the facts as they currently appear.

The CDC and science in general can’t base their recommendations on the shitty decisions many Americans will make.

Their recommendation is true. If vaccinated you are safe. If not vaccinated keep distancing and wearing masks.

So after a year of criticizing the other guy’s administration for politicizing the CDC we want to do the same? Telling fully vaccinated people they are still at risk, which is bullshit.

And apparently some are angry Biden did not know about the recommendations? Is that not what we have wanted for the last 4 years? Science decisions not run through politicians.

[TraceNC]

169. Partially agree, but since the President wasn't

informed of this decision prior to the CDC making it public, I wouldn’t include him in this.

I worry that the CDC might have taken PR into account when faced with the question: if vaccines work, why do the vaccinated still have to wear masks? They were stuck. And they’re trying to bolster confidence in the vaccine so more people will get it.

Does that mean I think they’re bad people or that their motives were bad? No. After all, at some point we were going to have to try this. I just wonder why now, when we’re nowhere close to the percentage we were told we would need hit in order to reach herd immunity.

One thing is for sure: they’ve caused a hell of a lot of confusion. Clarification and complete transparency is in order.

Okay, two things are for sure, and the second one is: you are totally right — this is a license for maskholes.

[fescuerescue]

175. the CDC isn't in the business of social punishment

IMO.

Their credibility was damaged badly enough when they lied to practice supply chain management.

[SweetieD]

197. I agree the CDC messaging on this is terrible. The federal government has NEVER issued

the mask mandate. The federal government left it up to each state.

But now with this message it makes it seem like the federal government is saying masks are not required or necessary and somehow that overrides the state. My state still has a mask mandate and I have seen people going maskless in places because the CDC said it is ok.

[BannonsLiver]

200. Breaking news

You don’t have any special insight. You are not an infectious disease expert. They are. Case closed.

[JCMach1]

204. Not about feelings, but the science...

Right now, if you are fully vaxxed there is no statistical difference between being masked, or unmasked.

Sorry, but it is what it is.

[SoonerPride]

214. This is what people don't want to hear.

Or refuse to hear.

Thank you for the truth.

[DBoon]

205. What the CDC said vs. what many people hear

CDC: Vaccinated people can forego masks in almost all cases

People: It's over! I don't need to wear a mask! I can party and play til the cows come home!

I expect infection rates to start climbing in 3 weeks, followed by death rates in another 3.

The CDC made a truthful statement, but the CDC should have understood the level of scientific maturity of many Americans, and should have realized they would open the floodgates for the unvaccinated to spread this deadly disease.

[SoonerPride]

213. If infection rates climb it will be among the unvaccinated

So what’s the issue then?

[DBoon]

215. I hate to see stupid mean people die

[SoonerPride]

219. Yeah it's a real crying shame of natural selection.

C’est la vie.