An observation: DU posts condemning Hamas are curiously few and far between.

[Beastly Boy]

In the midst of a barrage of posts condemning the destruction of a single building in Gaza with no human casualties, it appears we are selectively disregarding certain aspects of the current conflict far more worthy of condemnation and outrage.

So far, over 1500 missiles, each one of them a violation of the Geneva Conventions, have been launched from the Gaza strip aimed directly, without any pretense to the contrary, at the civilian population centers.

Certain military resources are, in violation of the Geneva Conventions, being methodically co-mingled among the civilian population, deliberately exposing them to military threats.

The fact that Iran has turned the whole Gaza Strip into one huge ammunition dump is not even being mentioned.

While Israel takes much greater care to protect their civilian population, casualties, including women and children, are mounting on both sides.

I see little merit in taking sides when the fight between right wing zealots and professional militants gets murderously vicious, especially in light of all the civilian casualties that follow (actually, I find any such attempt a bit ridiculous), but I couldn't help but notice the inequity in dispensing outrage here on DU.

[pwb]

1. I thought Trump and Kushner fixed that for good?

I blame them.

[Beastly Boy]

3. I appreciate your sense of humor, even if it's a bit maccabre.

Certainly, Kushner's abject incompetence played a big role in the events leading to this conflict.

[jimfields33]

4. It's been going on forever. I doubt anything will change.

Israel has countries surrounding them that would like nothing more them have them disappear. And Palestinians feel they never get a fair time. Hopefully the money President Biden gave to the Palestinians will help them improve their lives. Hamas are the bad in the story.

[ananda]

41. Lol. Can't think of a better pair to blame.

...

[RockRaven]

2. An observation: DU posts condemning serial killers are curiously few and far between.

Some things don't need to be spelled out -- when the majority of people already agree on something, it is a waste or time, space, and attention to repeat it ad nauseam.

"Hamas is bad. They do bad things. No like. "

Is that really better?

[Beastly Boy]

5. You have a point.

But my analogy is more like one serial killer pricking a finger of another serial killer and getting all the outrage for doing so.

The outrage kind of misses the point, doesn't it?

[edhopper]

6. I have not seen any reports of Israeli children being killed by Hamas

Have you.
But Palestinian children have been killed by Israel.
Perhaps this is what attributes to DUers being upset and posting their displeasure.

Me? I am at a pox on both houses stage.

[Beastly Boy]

10. Now you have

, Israel has reported 10 dead, including two children, as a result of a barrage of rockets on the country.

https://news.yahoo.com/israel-moving-towards-ceasefire-hamas-123116082.html

[edhopper]

23. It says the Guardian reported this

yet I cannot find it in the Guardian or any other source.

Of course Hamas shooting rockets into civilian areas, whether they kill anyone or not, is intolerable.

My post was not to excuse Hamas, but to explain, given the carnage Israel has unleashed, why the posts on DU have skewed to condemning Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

28. It says Business Insider reported this

https://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-israel-moving-towards-ceasefire-with-hamas-reports-say-2021-5

It appears Israel is far better at protecting their civilians. Certainly not a reason to condemn them.

[Mosby]

46. So far 339 hamas rockets struck Gaza, killing 20 Palestinians.

[hlthe2b]

7. No one here supports terrorism. That said there is a tremendous power differential

for which the Palestinian people remain exploited by both sides and are bearing the brunt as they have for decades. Arguably, the Israeli people likewise continue to be manipulated by Netanyahu and the Likudists and the former DOES benefit from this crisis.

When the power differential is so lopsided, it is obscene that so many wish to ignore the plight of the Palestinians. Enough said.

[Beastly Boy]

17. Power differential notwithstanding,

I was addressing the outrage differential on DU.

And let me be clear: whether we are talking about Hamas, Israel, Iran, the Arab League, the PLO, etc., the Palestinian people have consistently been the biggest victims of all the political power plays, both foreign and domestic, nearly all outside of their control.

[hlthe2b]

19. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" --Martin Rees & Carl Sagan

The absence of posts is meaningless. I've seen nothing posted today with respect to countless issues that remain front and foremost in both MSM coverage and our priorities.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

[Beastly Boy]

24. Agreed. Take my post as an observation, not a failed attempt at producing evidence.

[AlexSFCA]

8. whatever we say, let's remember it's not Biden's job to intervene

IMO, it’s best to stay away from this crisis as far as possible. Otherwise it is likely only escalate further. When US gets involved in conflicts like these, it only leads to more deaths.
Also, Israel is classified as major non-NATO ally. Of course, US will always be siding with Israel. It is not even subject to discussion.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. We are involved, to the tune of almost $4 billion in military aid, so.

[AlexSFCA]

13. Israel is classified as major non-NATO ally

US will always be siding with Israel, it’s not subject to discussion.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. So...why pretend the U.S. can "stay as far away from this as possible"?

[tonedevil]

15. That is the problem. /nt

[Klaralven]

26. We should try to keep the violence between the Med and the Jordan - two scorpions in a bottle

[lindysalsagal]

11. +1000. This is too old and complicated to solve, or waste energy on.

When the fairy tale believers have had enough death, they'll decide the living are more important. Period. And not until then.

[LanternWaste]

12. Quite the difference from...

"I am merely warning those who are too quick and careless with their condemnation...."

However, as this relevant difference is far too obvious, a narrative begins to clarify itself.

[Beastly Boy]

21. The difference you are alluding to escapes me completely.

How is my cautioning against being too quick with condemnations contrasts with my observation of one-sided condemnations?

If anything, the latter is an example of the former.

[niyad]

16. Perhaps you could give us the casualty totals for both sides? Help our understanding. Last number

I saw, several days ago, was 8 Israeli dead, and 100 Palestinians. I am guessing the totals are much higher now??

[Beastly Boy]

18. Casualties as of earlier today:

Palestinian officials say at least 181 people have been killed since the conflict began on Monday, including 83 women and children, The Financial Times reported.

Israel has reported 10 dead, including two children, as a result of a barrage of rockets on the country.

https://news.yahoo.com/israel-moving-towards-ceasefire-hamas-123116082.html

Israel appears to be much better at protecting their civilians

[niyad]

22. That is one way of looking at it.

[Ms. Toad]

71. From a friend in Israel, there is some truth to it.

I've seen screen captures of her phone with the warning messages to take shelter, identifying the time and location of incoming rockets.

I've also seen videos of non-stop incoming rockets (to Israel) in both day- and night-time skies So it's not as if there is no attempt to kill Israelis.

[tonedevil]

25. Perhaps they are just better at killing. /nt

[Beastly Boy]

29. Perhaps. But this in no way detracts from Hamas wanting to kill civilians

They don't fail due to lack of trying.

[tonedevil]

35. Hamas in no way absolves Israel...

of the atrocities they commit in Gaza and The West Bank.

[Beastly Boy]

42. Very true. And this goes both ways. Something I had in mind when I posted the OP.

[tonedevil]

48. You are just trying to balance the scales? /nt

[Beastly Boy]

50. Not exactly.

More like adding a few extra pieces to a jigsaw puzzle to make it a bit more complete.

[tonedevil]

60. I suppose how one views the puzzle...

helps determine what pieces one thinks are missing.

[Beastly Boy]

63. Are you suggesting that the puzzle changes with every differing view?

To extend the analogy, there were many pieces offered on DU to form one side of the puzzle. Are all of these pieces suspect because of the views each contributor brought with their pieces? Should I reject all of their pieces based on my suspicions of their views?

An attitude like this makes the whole discussion irrelevant and ridiculous..

[tonedevil]

64. Where did I say..

some pieces are suspect or should be rejected? I simply believe that people see situations (puzzles) differently depending on what they bring with them when they observe. The pieces of the puzzle you find interesting may not be of any concern to someone else. Just as you may not think what someone else finds interesting of any note or merit.

[Beastly Boy]

66. Whatever the nuances of your statement are, they apply equally to every post

In which case I must admit, I don't have any interest to debate anything that is based on the assumption that the meaning of the post can be arbitrarily attributed by any responder to a poster's interests, the way the responder sees it.

Makes the whole idea of a debate go out the window.

[tonedevil]

67. Sorry to offend. /nt

[ChubbyStar]

68. I thank you for your posts in this thread

When my sisters were small they used to put their fingers in their ears and scream loudly if they felt wronged, no matter how badly they behaved themselves.

[moonscape]

44. With the population density in

Gaza, isn’t it a bit like shooting fish in a barrel?

[EX500rider]

36. That's if you believe the figures from the Hama's controlled Ministry of Health

DU:
Israel: bombs news building to get at Hama's intel HQ - LIES!

Hama's: "We have X number of dead women & children" Must be true!

And I am not saying they haven't taken civilian casualties, that pretty much impossible for the IDF to avoid when Hama's purposely base rocket teams amoung civilians for cover and PR victories, but I'd take their figure with a grain of salt as it is in their interest to boost the figure.

[ripcord]

58. I notice you don't discuss Hamas' part in those casualties

I wonder how many of them would be alive if that terrorist organization hadn't launched rockets on Israel?

[Klaralven]

20. 40 km long by 9 km wide with 2 million people, Gaza is one huge concentration camp

Hamas is the gang that runs the camp on the inside.

Israel is the nation that runs the camp from the outside (with a little help from Egypt).

[ms liberty]

43. Short and to the point. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

74. Very good point.

I also wonder if concentration camp like conditions might tend to lead to the emergence of extremist groups.

[tenderfoot]

27. An observation: DU posts supporting Bibi tend to lean heavily to the right

eom

[Beastly Boy]

30. Interesting observation.

Last edited Sun May 16, 2021, 03:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Can you link me to any posts that support Bibi? I certainly don't

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15435623

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Bibi is an Israeli Trump.

He is making a tough hand worse.

[Rustyeye77]

54. You seem to have a deep understanding of the situation.

What do you want Bibi to do?

Not respond ?
Make hamas happy by walking in the sea ?
Turn off Iron Dome and let as many of its citizens to be mudered?
Don’t return fire?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. I am a man of the left and consequently support Labour

I am a man of the left and consequently support Labour but they are small, weak, and ineffective. There really is no left in Israel outside of the Arab political parties. It's mostly right and center- right parties. Bibi is a Jewish nationalist. Trump is an American nationalist. I understand the love of one's people, group, or nation and wanting to see them prosper but not at the expense of other groups, peoples, or nations.

What do I want Bibi to do? He absolutely has to respond to the rocket attacks. The first obligation of government is to protect its citizens. That being said he needs to stop provoking Palestinians. This latest round of violence started with a dispute over the Al -Asqa mosque. It's holy to Muslims. Let them do with it as they wish. I also wish he would have a "Sadat visits Israel" moment and truly reach out to the Palestinians. As Yitzhak Rabin said you don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies.

There are 5, 300,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. If Israel grants them citizenship it will cease to exist as a Jewish state. If it rules them against their will in perpetuity it will cease to exist as a democratic one.

The status quo is unsustainable.

[karynnj]

62. Start a few weeks earlier ... and there are many things BiBi could have done

He absolutely should not have allowed the IDF to spray skunk water and use flash bangs INSIDE the Al Aqsa mosque during prayers during Ramadan- something that angered the neighboring countries as well as the Palestinians. Anyone reading anything in the Israeli media (I usually read Haaretz) knew that with the that and the evictions and the usual provocations from settlers, something was likely to happen. Not to mention over 50 years of occupation. It also bothers me that this violence will likely help Netanyahu stay in power as it killed the possible change government.

That occupation is important. Israel wants it both ways. Any diplomat who speaks of the conflict as between 2 countries is immediately flamed for "awarding" the Palestinians statehood. However, that should mean that at times of conflict -- there is just one country involved. Shouldn't the state be held to higher standards?

It also did not help that Israel was in the latest of their failed attempts to get a government. As a liberal Jew, it absolutely bothers me that the Jewish MKs are overwhelmingly right wing, divided by whether they accept Netanyahu leading the government. That more MKs expressed concern with being in a coalition with Meretz (which likely would be the choice of most here in DU if we were Israeli) but NOT the homophobic, fascists in "Religious Zionism", the Kahanist party was eye opening.

You ask why no condemnation of Hamas - as someone said, it is expected to be a terrorist organization. The criticism of Israel is because we DO expect more of a country that we have (had) respect and admiration for. It hurts to read words like "mow the grass".

I remember how hard the Obama team worked to get ceasefires in both 2009 and 2014 (working with countries like Eqypt and Quatar as middlemen - because speaking to Hamas - even to get agreement - was off the table for both the US and Israel.) I also remember how - rather than consider a ceasefire before he wanted it, a very dishonest Netanyahu threw both Obama and Kerry under the bus. I completely get why Biden - a witness to all of that - is taking a lower key effort.

[tenderfoot]

53. Your OP is a great start.

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Something to ponder.

One of out of every five Israelis in Israel proper is an Arab. When Hamas willy nilly fires their rockets at Israel there's a one in five chance it hits an Arab.

[marie999]

33. What do you do when when your houses are bulldozed by a strong foreign country

and your land is taken over by citizens of that country.

[Beastly Boy]

34. Shoot a thousand rockets in the general direction of the bulldoser, of course!

See, I can be as much of a bomb thrower as anyone. You are not looking for an answer, you are detracting from the issue I raised. But the real answer certainly does not include the facetious one that I provided.

[EX500rider]

37. More like fire thousands of rockets at random civilians in other cities. nt

[11 Bravo]

38. In days of yore, this would have been bounced to the I/P forum in a heartbeat.

[Beastly Boy]

45. The rules are more flexible in times of a newsworthy events.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't place this in GD

[LAS14]

39. I agree. We could do with a little more "both and" ism. nt

[WarGamer]

40. +1000 nt

[BannonsLiver]

47. I lost interest in that fight long ago

People killing each other over scrub brush that wouldn’t be worth $100 an acre in parts of Nevada. They can have it. I’m not religious so that element of the story is meaningless to me.

[stopdiggin]

49. tend to agree. this falls into the category of "a pox on both your houses"

certainly don't have any solutions to offer here -- but I'm also not going to be waving any flags or banners. If my disgust is not shared absolutely proportionally -- that does not mean it is not ultimately shared.

[Rustyeye77]

51. Only dead Jews get some fleeting thought.

To some people live Jews are compared to nazis. You figure out where that occurs.

[Hortensis]

52. Concern noted. But best to kick out any fires being set in the mddle

of our unified opposition to what's happening on our own right. Another year, when we're not fighting for our national survival.

[UnderThisLaw]

55. It's OK

We always have enough posts that criticize DU members and our purported inequity in dispensing outrage

[ripcord]

56. Most people are perfectly willing for ignore the fact that Hamas started launching first

They also ignore the fact that Hamas firing rockets from heavily populated areas increases civilian casualties which is a common tactic of terrorists.

[Progressive Jones]

57. Maybe everyone is growing weary of stupid ancient Middle Eastern tribal feuds. I know I am. nt

[peppertree]

65. +1

They all say the same thing about each other:

"They may not drink at our well" and "they are a dirty people."

[pnwmom]

69. I don't trust Netanyahu anymore than I trusted Trump. Why would anyone? n/t

[Beastly Boy]

70. Neither do I. That's why I made an effort to leave him out of my posts.

[electric_blue68]

72. In my posts this week I have...

Last edited Sun May 16, 2021, 07:44 PM - Edit history (1)

disparaged both Hamas's rocket launchers along with them locating themselves within areas with women & children, along with Netanyahu's long standing policy of ever increasing the amounts of WB Jewish settlements.
Probably much of his treatment of Palestinians as well.

As I've occasionally mentioned it's "fun" to be at the SE
area of Manhattan's Union SQ Park on the days when caticorner to each other - Pro-Palistinian, and RW Jews Pro-Israel supporters are standing with signs yelling at each other! 🙄
That's when "a pox on both your houses" thought flares up in me. 😑

However I do believe in Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State but not RW Jewish State. What do we do with Likkud? I don't know.
I do believe in a 2 State solution with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian's Capitol.

Growing up as a (then) Carholic living in a 2/3rds observant Jewish neighborhood - I knew families who had big gaps in their living members unlike my mom's spawling brothers, and sister side because of The Nazis' atrocities.
Yes, I have seen a small blue numbers tatoo below the wrist of a friend's grandmother.

As some of you know there are Jewish Israeli's, Arab Israeli's, Palestinians and their American counterparts who are working together to find a Genuine Peace for everyone (except maybe the most RW of all).

J Street is a Progressive (and for Peace) Jewish organization located in DC working with all of the people
who are/have been working towards a just peace.
Tikkun Magazine a Quarterly formed by the Progressive Rabbi Michael Lerner with Jewish, Ecumenical, and Secular elements working for a just prace, and understandings amongst groups.

These are wonderful groups trying to counter the
totally RW views we hear so much in our general American Media. I highly recommend them. 🙂
I mention them particularly because (could have missed some post) in the 11 months I've been on DU I've
never seen them mentioned.

[Crunchy Frog]

73. I think it's because there's so much asymmetry between Hamas and the Israeli military.

Even when both sides are wrong, people tend to hold the vastly more powerful and lethally armed to a higher standard. Especially when the more powerful side appears to be the one engaging in provocation and escalation of hostilities.

Essentially it's perceived as a war of powerful occupiers against a weak, occupied people.

Many people feel that Netanyahu deliberately provoked this latest conflict in order to hold on to the political power he was losing.

There's inequity in outrage because there's inequity in the conflict.

[Beastly Boy]

76. You are right. Still, it rubs me the wrong way when one guilty party

gets preferential treatment over another guilty party for no other reason than being weaker, not for being less guilty.

[TheFarseer]

75. I have stayed out of this

because most people here have made up their minds to support the Palestinians, but I seriously doubt if the rolls were reversed that the Palestinians would take it in stride to get pelted with rockets. If they thought they would win, the Arabs would invade Israel and try to push them into the sea and off the map. Not everything Israel does is wonderful of course, but don’t act like the Palestinians have done nothing wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I'm not convinced most Arab nations want Israel gone .

They see it as a hedge against Iran who they fear. It's beyond Netanyahu but he should have a "Sadat visits Israel" moment and make a genuine peace overture to the Palestinians

[moondust]

77. Ridiculous power imbalance.

Many will naturally tend to side with the underdog. Some would probably argue that all this bloodshed and mayhem could have been prevented long ago if only the much, much stronger (nuclear) party had seriously wanted to end it and learn to coexist rather than continue to expand its size and power.

A haunting historical reference someone here posted yesterday: lebensraum.

[Beastly Boy]

80. It is rather difficult to reason with the weaker party which

doesn't recognize your right to exist and aims to throw you into the sea. Imagine your weak neighbor constantly reminding you that his most coveted dream is to see you dead. Makes you think twice before giving your neighbor the benefit of doubt on account of his weakness, no? My point being that it takes two to coexist, no matter the discrepancies in strength.

But I agree, some will still attempt to make this argument.

[moondust]

82. IYO

if past two-state solution negotiations had been successful and the weaker party had gotten its own independent state, would the two states have continued their violent confrontations/wars or learned to live with what they had and leave the other alone?

A quick look at the geography reveals who would be more likely to entertain notions of pushing the other into the sea.

[Beastly Boy]

84. The last time the two parties came close was in December 2000. Do you remember what happened?

Arafat rejected the deal and abruptly ended the negotiations. Once again, it takes two to tango.

And if you only compare geography with official declarations of intent, there will be no doubt which is more persuasive.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

79. Fact, Israel has not treated the people of palestine as equals since their country was created

You reap what you sew.

You can't have peace when you are still building settlements

You can't treat people like less them human and expect them to respect you

Israel has ever right to be a decent country, but they continue to choose not to be.



Just so you know I have friends on both sides and they say this could be worked out, but Israel continues to not want it to work out, I wonder why ?

[Beastly Boy]

83. Neither did Jordan, or Egypt, or Lebanon, or

Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Tunisia... the list goes on.

Some of them are as responsible for the Palestinians losing their lands, yet none of them were threatened with annihilation in response, and none of them are expected to reap what they sow, except Israel. How come?

[RANDYWILDMAN]

85. I have read your posts in this thread, explain Settlements to me and were good

I agree those countries happily had a role in this and they have no excuse for how they acted.

Israel has put itself in a bad spot with the settlements and they have no plan to let them go. If they settlements stay no peace is happening anytime soon.

[Beastly Boy]

87. When you ask to explain settlements, I am assuming you mean settlements on the West Bank.

Because all 21 Jewish settlements in Gaza were turned over by Israel to Palestinian control, in some cases by the Israeli army forcefully evicting settlers, in 2005 (BTW, this shows that ending the existence of Jewish settlements is not only possible, but realistic).

Other than that, the only thing I can say about the remaining Jewish settlements on the West Bank is that they are illegal by any international standard.

[moriah]

81. Well, first, I'd ordinarily be posting such opinions on the I/P forum.

The situation has been going on for decades, generations of people have been born believing that they have the right to that same small patch of land, and those same holy places.

It's such a complex and emotional issue for many people that I ordinarily would not respond to a post about I/P in General Discussion. Not because I don't think the issue is important, but because the forum ops learned long ago that it was better to keep those conversations in I/P vs triggering everyone.

But right now news reports are triggering everyone, and this is a current event.

------

There was a great article someone linked from the New York Times that I had in my browser tabs before I accidentally closed the window and lost them all (aaaaargh) that discussed the buildup of tensions and the perceived provocations before Hamas started sending rockets. Including anti-Muslim demonstrations from far right groups (so yeah, there are some people in each community who truly do hate the other).

Either way, though, as a pacifist I cannot say either Hamas or Israel is behaving well. The more rockets Hamas sends attempting to penetrate the Iron Dome, the more non-combatants will be displaced, injured, or killed by retaliatory strikes. Given the population density of Gaza, there likely is no way to avoid renting an apartment in a large building without potentially having a known Hamas asset as your neighbor. If they attempt to blow up every building that houses someone associated with Hamas, they will end up destroying the entirety of the city. Even with one hour warnings to preserve life, the displacement of non-combatants is inevitable with this strategy.

It also makes me angry that some have criticized those who have wanted to donate to humanitarian relief efforts for non-combatants affected by the conflict -- that if you want to donate money to UNRWA or MSF (Doctors Without Borders), you're "taking sides."

When people get to that point of thinking -- that a desire to render purely humanitarian aid to any non-combatant who is affected by a conflict means you are automatically siding with them in said conflict, and so you are the enemy -- well, that's when we get wars. And it seems we have one, or pretty close.

Anyway, take care of yourself. I wish that everyone in that region could have peace. But people have been wishing that for what seems like forever.

[RegularJam]

86. I condemn Hamas.

I just do it proportionally comparative to the levels of violence on each side.

[Beastly Boy]

88. Does failure to commit violence despite every intention and effort to do so figure into

your sense of proportionality? How?

[RegularJam]

89. Proportionality with respect to the reality of the situation.

Not imagined.

[Beastly Boy]

90. Here's an example of what I mean.

A real one, not imagined.

Hamas launched 1500 missiles into Israel's civilian centers. Their intended targets were civilian, to the exclusion of military ones, and the intent was to kill civilians. Over 90% of the missiles din't reach their intended targets, due entirely to the effectiveness of Israeli defenses. As a result, while the intended lethality of the missiles was disproportionally high compared to the intended lethality of the force Israel used in Gaza, the number of casualties inflicted by this force was disproportionally low compared to that in Gaza.

On your scale of proportionality, does Hamas' intent count, or do they get a pass because they failed to achieve their objective?

On edit: does Israel get disproportionate humanitarian credit for preventing hundreds, if not thousands of civilian casualties on territories under their administration?