Lawyers! Them guys talk funny!

[MineralMan]

I like the attorney who is handling my late parents' estate, but he often does something in emails that is common with attorneys - he uses legal "terms of art" when providing instructions for forms that need signing, etc. Since I am not a lawyer, I often have to look those up, and Google is pretty good at providing explanations. That lets me deal with stuff without bugging the attorney and creating another billing opportunity by asking him to explain.

However, there are some forms right now that need to go to someone else, then back to me for my signature and notarization. The other person is not someone who knows those legal "terms of art," nor who would think to search Google for them. He will, instead, just be confused and not understand the instructions.

The particular jargon in question is "wet signatures and dates." He told the first person to sign the forms to send the forms to me with "wet signatures and dates." Now, I know that he meant that the other person should sign and date the forms in ink and send me the original signed forms, rather than copies of the signed forms.

That will not be obvious to the person who signs them before I receive them. So, I sent an email to that person to explain what was meant. "Sign and date the forms with a pen and send the original to me." Simple, isn't it?

Legalese is confusing to most people. That's especially true with the use of words and phrases in Latin. It's all part of deliberately obfuscating legal communications and documents. I find the practice annoying, frankly, when simple language can be used in almost all cases.

Fortunately, Google knows all that stuff, and will be happy to explain it for you, if you think to do a search. But, not everyone thinks to do that with expressions they don't understand. Phooey on jargon!

[Maeve]

1. If lawyers spoke in clear English, there would be less need for lawyers

aka this is job security!

Ah, well...as I age I realize why my dad was appalled when I said at one time that I wanted to be a lawyer...

[StarfishSaver]

18. I had a couple of clients complain that my contracts were in plain English

They thought that meant they weren't really legal and/or that anyone could have written them (as if) so what were they paying me for? They made me out the legalese back in to make sure they were real contracts.

Go figure.

[Maeve]

21. Some people buy into hype

The lawyers I trust most know how to cut the legalese to the minimum (the ones I don't get shocked when I show them I understand the language better than they expect!)
I think we would get along fine

[Pantagruel]

2. "Phooey"

Golly! You really sound upset!!


https://www.google.com/search?q=phooey+definition&sxsrf=ALeKk00gWfh7jNM78erM4lEmZdpCkQSDhA%3A1621354008077&ei=GOajYL2CBMzb-wT8z6qYBA&oq=phooey+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYBTIECCMQJzILCAAQsQMQgwEQkQIyBQgAEJECMgIIADIHCAAQhwIQFDICCAAyBAgAEEMyAggAMgIIADICCABQqqoBWKqqAWDzyQFoAXAAeACAAbEBiAGcApIBAzAuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz

[Turbineguy]

3. I'm involved in a lawsuit as a witness.

One of the lawyers for the other side uses words that when decoded are intend to mischaracterize what I gave as testimony.

Now I know there is language for that. Terms of Art. Nice.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

4. In my field, we do not use the term "wet signature"

I will check with my estate planning partner and dirt lawyers to see if they use this term. I know that we have clients come in to sign divorce filings and wills all of the time and the real estate lawyers have to get documents notarized. In the corporate world, we get to use pdf signatures and I have not been to a physical closing in over a decade

[Miguelito Loveless]

6. My colleagues and I

(IT types) used the term "wetware" to point to a problem with users, as opposed to actual problems with hardware or software.

"So, I checked on that 'disappearing icons' complaint, turns out it was a wetware problem."

[MineralMan]

10. Yes. My attorney is old-fashioned. He's also 77 years old.

In the sale of my late parents farm property as the acting trustee, I did it all from Minnesota, while the property was in California. Only a few things had to be signed manually and be notarized. Everything else was done using DocuSign. The pandemic changed a lot of things.

In many ways, it has been easier to manage this estate and trust from far away than if I were in California. If I were there, I'd probably have to go to different places to do things. From here, everyone knows I can't do that, so they find ways to eliminate that need. For real estate matters that needed a notary, the title company sent one to my house, and we signed everything there in one pass.

[Stallion]

13. Never Heard of the Term-but Its not Legalese and actually Pretty Descriptive

[StarfishSaver]

19. This

[Ms. Toad]

16. More common in business than in any other area of law. n/t

[Miguelito Loveless]

5. Never use one word where you can use three.

"terms of art" = "jargon"

It takes longer to write out, but hey, they are billing by the hour.

[MineralMan]

11. There are minor shades of meaning that are different

between those two expressions.

[11 Bravo]

7. I understand that wet signatures of Trump Inc. legal documents involve hookers and plastic sheets.

[lindysalsagal]

8. In a house closing once, he said, "This is the form that covers the bank in case

you take a powder."

Funny.

[MerryHolidays]

9. Res ipsa loquitor and que sera, sera

If I may mix my phrases and languages.....I guess we lawyers are on one end of the spectrum, and those using ". ." are on the other!



(but I agree with you...simplicity is better. I tell my associates to cut out the legalese and Latin unless absolutely necessary. To be fair, I have never heard the term "wet signature"...it's always "original signature" or "original signed documents." )

[MineralMan]

12. My lawyer is an older gentleman.

I didn't choose him, but I like him pretty well. He has let me handle everything I possibly can, both to keep billable hours at a minimum and to save him time and work. I've been acting as a research assistant and doing much of the necessary correspondence with beneficiaries to keep the process on track. I'm also pretty persuasive, so he left negotiations and conversations with real estate people to me to handle. It has all worked out very well, and has helped to keep his fees reasonable.

For him, the benefit has been that I always have the information, etc. needed at hand or can get it almost instantly. Most recently, there was a need for a death certificate for my late brother. He mentioned that to me, and I had one on hand, since I ordered 10 of them right after my parents died. My father hadn't updated the beneficiary list on insurance and other things since by brother died. I didn't actually know that, but suspected that he hadn't, so I ordered the death certificates early on.

I also created an ever-growing document in Word containing contact information and other important information, so I could find it instantly when needed. Every new person involved in the process is listed in it as soon as I deal with them for the first time.

It also has detailed information on my parents, because I often have to supply a bit of that information to so many different people. Want to know my maternal grandmother's maiden name? Got it. I actually got that question once. I was all WTF do you need that? but, it was in the document. That document has a shortcut icon in my Windows 10 task bar. That way, I don't have to remember who the contractor is who is handling the septic tank work on their property, or the person actually doing the work in the Title Company office. If I need that info, it's right there and can be copied and pasted when needed.

I'm probably a bit too organized, but it's better to have what you need immediately at hand than to have to hunt for it.

Then, there's the filing system I use for all of the paper that has passed through my hands. That's another thing altogether.
I also have scans saved in pdf format of every document I might need to share with someone. I can just attach the pdf to an email on request and be done with it.

[rsdsharp]

14. I agree. I practiced law (primarily litigation) for 33 years

and never even heard the term, let alone used it. I just told people to sign (before a notary if necessary), date (if necessary) and return the original.

I never had anyone sign with anything other than ink, even without telling them to use it. I have had people fail to date a document, or get it notarized, even when told to do so. As a result, I usually used our state’s alternative “signed under penalty of perjury” language to avoid having to use a notary.

[TomSlick]

15. That's a new one for me. But I've only been a lawyer for 39 years.

Is there such a thing as a "dry signature?"

You have come close enough for me to share a limerick I learned in law school:

"There once was a lawyer named Tex
who was lacking in organs of sex.
When arraigned for exposure,
he said with composure,
De minimus non curate lex."

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

22. A "dry signature" is anything signed with a Sharpie.

For example, Former Guy's executive orders.

As a lawyer, do you ever see anyone sign with a Sharpie?

[TomSlick]

25. I don't recall ever seeing a signature with a Sharpie.

[Progressive Jones]

30. LOL. I had to endorse a payroll check with a Sharpie once. That gave Trump's Sharpie

signings even more for me to laugh about.

[Ms. Toad]

17. There's a difference between jargon and legal terms of art.

Legal terms of art are required when the terms have specific legal meaning. That is not the case with wet signatures and dates, which is jargon.

Any attorney trained recently has been trained to write in plain engligh (aside from using legal terms of art when those terms are needed to trigger a very specific legal concept). Whether that "takes" or not is another question.

Interestingly enough, it is our ESL students, and students in the lower end of the class, who are most resistant to writing in plain English. Both of those groups are under the impression that writing in plain English will make them look dumb.

[StarfishSaver]

20. That's a fairly new term and isn't "legalese"

It's business jargon. I don't hear lawyers actually using the term.

[MineralMan]

23. Odd, because it was a lawyer who used it in an email,

as I said. Google also recognizes the term. It's not a new term, either. It is, in fact, a legal way of saying that a person physically signed a document, and that the document is recognized as the original document. For decades, if not centuries, people have been physically signing important documents. What is recent is the acceptance of electronic signature, but some documents are not official unless a person physically signed the document, often in front of a notary public.

For example, tomorrow morning, I am once again visiting a notary public to have that person witness me signing a Grant Deed and Affidavit of Death of a Trustee. Those documents will be recorded in the county and state where the property concerned is located. An electronic signature is not allowed on such documents. Only the original document with a "wet signature and date" can be officially recorded as a public record. Add to that a Jurat attached to the Deed and an Acknowledgement attached to the Affidavit and signed by the notary, with his seal attached, and you have an official document that will become part of the public record regarding that property.

It is far from a new term, but is not generally known by lay people. For them, a different wording makes the concept clear and understandable. Hence my original post.

Google it.

Here, see this:

https://www.upcounsel.com/wet-signature

[StarfishSaver]

27. The fact that a lawyer used it doesn't make it "legalese"

I've been a lawyer for more than 30 years and have never used the term not have I ever heard an attorney use it in any of my professional endeavors. I have heard other business professionals use it but only very recently. That's probably because it's only been in the last few years that electronic signatures have been more broadly accepted as legally sufficient.

Every lawyer I know just says they need an "original signature" if they need someone to actually sign a document by hand rather than electronically. "Wet signature" is not a legal term. It's just jargon some people use to differentiate between a hand-signed and electronically-signed - and the other lawyers weighing in to this thread seem to agree.

[MineralMan]

28. Well, I'm only dealing with one lawyer, and he did use the term

in an email with instructions for handling some papers that require two people to sign them. Hence my OP.

[PCIntern]

24. Except that "DocuSign" with associated

photos of both sides of the driver’s license are becoming de riguer in many places.

[MineralMan]

26. Yes, for some documents, but not all.

I have DocuSigned a couple of dozen documents in the past couple of weeks. However, there are other documents which I have had to sign physically, with the original sent to whoever needs them. Most of those have also required notarization. Pretty much any document that will be recorded as a public record requires both.

My entire point was that most people do not know the term "wet signature and date," so a clearer explanation is needed when telling someone that is required. The attorney I mentioned did not provide that better explanation, so I had to explain it to my relative, who did not understand the instructions.

It is not a trivial thing. Using jargon or "terms of art" when you expect a lay person to understand what you are saying is a mistake that can delay completion of something. That was my point.

The flood of paperwork required to settle my late parents' estate has involved signatures of all kinds. Sometimes, some form of electronic signature is fine. Sometimes it is not. In fact, in some states, notarization is not accepted if the notary is in another state. That happened once in this massive pile of paperwork. I could not travel, so the title company sent their own notary to my state to witness my signature. Go figure. Someone got on a plane to spend 5 minutes with me when I signed something, and then hand-delivered the document. Bizarre!

[PCIntern]

29. No argument with anything you said

It’s just that DocuSign surprised me in terms of acceptability.

[LanternWaste]

31. ok