I guess I was not clear enough in my previous post.

[MineralMan]

Online merchants like Amazon, Home Depot, and lesser known ones like Wayfair get a lot of flack here from some for being too "corporate" and somehow hurting local businesses.

And yet, two local workers, men of color, delivered a gas kitchen range to my house yesterday, from a local warehouse, where it was shipped from a distribution center staffed by local workers wherever that center is located.

On Tuesday, a local plumber will come to my house and install it. He's a local person and worker, too.

I got calls from the local delivery service, notifying me of the delivery time. Another local worker on the job.

All jobs are local somewhere. People are earning wages, just like those at a local appliance store that charges 33% more for the identical gas range. That local appliance store is a corporation, too, or maybe a corporate franchise.

As a lifelong Democrat, I support local workers everywhere, not just where I happen to live.

[applegrove]

1. They got rid of middle managers. Those jobs and incomes for the community

got compleetely destroyed.

[MineralMan]

5. And yet, Amazon has a distribution center near where I live.

It employs hundreds of local people, all earning at least $17 per hour. What about that is a bad thing? See, it's one thing to cry out against corporations, but they employ huge numbers of people, all across this country. What about that? People need jobs that pay a living wage. Amazon has jobs. Best Buy has jobs. Home depot has jobs. Most of those jobs offer better pay than local businesses.

I support workers and their needs.

[Ms. Toad]

16. That must be a local rate.

In our area entry-level work at the Amazon distribution center is $15.50 ($16.10 for the overnight shift). (My daughter works there - the entry level pay was just raised from $15.00 to $15.50.)

[MineralMan]

29. Could be a local rate. However, we are pushing for a $15 minimum wage.

Amazon is paying at least that. Amazon workers also receive benefits like health insurance, maternity and paternity leave, and more. So, there it is.

I did not mention local employees who drive the delivery trucks, either. Some are Amazon employees. Others are independent contractors, but all are local to the area in which they work.

Mom and Pop local businesses often pay considerably less than that to their employees, and many offer no benefits at all.

Is Amazon a very tough competitor for local businesses? Yes, it is. No question about it. That is the new reality in retailing. However, there are many other national retailers who have similar effects on local business. Every big box store, for example Still, all of those also hire local employees, and most have boosted their minimum pay level to at or near that $15 minimum. If it's workers who are concerned, it is the locally-owned businesses who pay poorly, not the national corps. Further, ambitious employees of larger businesses have far more opportunities for advancement.

We are sometimes too quick to condemn such businesses, and often do not look at the benefits they have on local economies. Nothing is simple.

[MineralMan]

8. Further, Amazon distribution centers also have middle managers,

along with IT workers. All are locals. What about that?

[Kali]

2. link?

[padfun]

3. I agree, you did right.

And middle management is the most bloodsucking, worthless position there is. Everyone else on your list actually worked.

[Niagara]

4. I was perplexed on why your previous OP

Was locked. I understood it to be about how a business runs by delivering products and how you're paying for products and services.


Glad to hear that things are going smoothly for your home updates.

[MineralMan]

9. That doesn't matter.

I was too subtle, I guess, so I rephrased what I meant. I don't mind.

[HUAJIAO]

15. I don't think you were too subtle at all.

Even though I have a 'new name,' I have been her for many years. It seems to me that subtly and humor more and more are missed my many more people than in the past.

[padfun]

6. If you really think about it...

MineralMan got everything done and used local workers for much of it, while other local workers did the point of origin stuff.
And NO middle managers were there to suck up someone's money (who should pay them?). Or if there were a few middle managers in the string, then they actually were in a position that was needed.

For 40 years I worked and saw Middle managers just destroy workers lives, and give orders, many time to the detriment of the task at hand. When they were absent, we got more work done without them in the way.

Yes, I have a thing against wasted middle management positions of which the workforce has decided to flood companies with.

[bucolic_frolic]

7. Each transaction generates a different set of cash flows, wages and benefits, profit destinations

So it's complicated to compare.

For me locally, I don't know what kind of choice it is where there are I suspect underpaid local workers as opposed to (perhaps the same) local workers paid by a big box thousands of miles away who may contract with local business for final delivery. And who knows what type of benefits each worker has. To complicate the likely local bank is as small town Republican as it gets. It's not a good choice: payment in a local Republican bank, or paying shareholders far away. SHOP LOCAL is not as easy, and the benefits and detriments not so clear, as some make it sound.

You did fine. You got what you needed. We can't vivisect the business world accurately enough to sort our preferred outcome. Maybe business has more unity these days than politics.

[monkeyman1]

10. as I do too !! very well put bud !

[brewens]

11. A dairy company expanded into my town and won the school district bid and hired me.

So I was the driver for the company coming in to stick it to the locally owned and operated outfit.

Except that, that guy had bought out the real local guys about 20 years before, fired everyone, then hired the guys willing to stay back at lower compensation. One that didn't stay and one that did were high school friends of mine. I was local. I went to four of those schools on my rout. I even knew a few cooks that were still there after all those years.

We did good and poached the buddy of mine still working for the other guys. Then he got busted for no paying Social Security on his employees. I have no idea how he thought he'd get away with that. Meadowgold bought that out took over everything, so my buddy is back at the same location and has a new truck. Things kind of worked out okay that time I guess. I was long gone by then.

[OAITW r.2.0]

12. I was in my "local" Home Depot yesterday, ready to drop a pretty good sized order

for a battery riding mower, trailer, woodchipper, field mower, and scaffolding. I wanted to order through the store, get the entire order staged and delivered to my place 50 miles away. No dice. Had to do it online. I spoke with the store manager, but they really didn't want to handle it....suggested I do it online. You'd think that they'd want the sales credit, but apparently not worth the aggravation.

[MineralMan]

30. Yeah. That's pretty common. Most big box stores these days don't deliver

using their own employees. It's all contracted out. Same with installation of products. Private contractors do all that stuff, which avoids having idle delivery and installation workers on the payroll during slow periods. That's the business model that is being used by almost all big box retailers now.

It's also why Home Depot, Lowes, and other big box home goods stores now have rental trucks parked in their parking lots. Customers can rent them and do their own delivery if they choose.

[JT45242]

13. Tax free works us the problem

These companies won't generally go into community without a 20 year property tax abatement.

So, although the workers might be getting a living wage...there is no money for the schools, fire department, road repairs, etc.

And that ignores the money that community usually have to invest in new sewar and access roads. Demand on the power grid.


Amazon hasn't been around ling enough yet, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they will pull the Walmart model. When the original tax abatement us scheduled to come to an end they will demand an extension of the abatement or they will leave to a new community that gives them the new tax abatement. Then those folks will be out of work.

The issue us not that they don't pay their workers adequately, it is that they don't pay their share if taxes.

[druidity33]

20. Ding! We have a winner!

My understanding is that Amazon had for years been a nightmare place to work, though that appears to be getting better. They are also rabidly anti-Union. I still use their services... basically a necessary evil where i live, but that won't stop me from criticizing them as a corporation. I just wouldn't criticize other people for using their services as well because, really, that would be hypocritical of me wouldn't it?

[MineralMan]

35. Warehouse and distribution center work is very hard work.

It's certainly not for everyone. I was talking to the banker at my bank branch last week. He is a Somali immigrant. He mentioned his brother while we were chatting. The brother took an entry level job at the Amazon distribution center in the metro area. Six months later, he was promoted to be a floor manager, with a sizable increase in pay. Why? Because he worked hard, learned quickly, and was good at communicating with other Somali employees, of which there are many. So, he's no longer picking products or packing boxes. Odds are good that he will continue to move up within that local organization.

There are pathways to better jobs in larger workplaces. Those do not necessarily exist in smaller businesses, really. Further, Amazon doesn't give a damn what color you are, how old you are, whether you are straight or LGBTQ, or other such nonsense. That's not always true at mom and pop businesses.

From the employee's point of view, such jobs are relatively more attractive than jobs at most small, local businesses. Yes, Amazon is a giant corporation and is approaching monopoly status in some ways. But, from the worker's point of view, they offer decent pay and good benefits. For many, that is an adequate reason to like working for them.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

25. How can we blame them. I mean,

Jeff Bezos doesn't quite have all the money in the world yet.

[marble falls]

14. As much as I don't like Walmart and while most people claim the opposite, but...

... fact is they didn't drive out small businesses in towns, the people in towns quit shopping at the small businesses.

[HUAJIAO]

17. Why do you think people suddenly stop shopping at small businesses?

Considering MM's original post ir is an interesting discussion.

In my own small city/town of about 22,000, after Walmart and Lowes arrived, the businesses that I can thik of that went out of business were--

1- grocery store(we still have one great one left)
2 shoe stores
2-3 clothing stores
1-hardware store
1- computer store

I think a few more.

I honestly can not say for sure that the big box stores that moved in drove the others out, but it sure seems to be a pattern, here and elsewhere....

[uponit7771]

18. Its the centralization of the jobs, come on we know they add but who wants all that in a few ...

... hands?

tia

[MineralMan]

31. It's also the economy of scale.

Price out a major appliance at a mom an pop appliance store, if you can find one. Then, check prices at the big box stores. The difference is striking. Price them online, as well, including delivery and set-up.

If it's your money you're spending, you'll probably go with the big box store. Almost always. You can see the difference in your checkbook or credit card statement.

That's the real reason local retail businesses can't compete. They can't buy the railcar loads of some model of appliance like the big box stores do. The local appliance store doesn't have the appliance you want in stock, anyhow. They can't afford to buy products on spec.

They also can't afford fancy shopping cart websites, either. Or they won't pay for those.

I work with a heating and air conditioning company on their websites. I have been doing so for years. They stock nothing. When they have an order, they pick up the product at a local warehouse, add their profit margin, and install it for their customer. The company I work with has a small staff of technicians on the payroll. A small staff. Most of their installations, though, are done by temporary contract technicians. They cannot afford to staff for peak sales, so they don't. They're one of dozens of smaller HVAC companies in our metro area.

Check Home Depot or Lowe's for something like ductless mini-split AC systems, and then ask for a quote from a local HVAC company. You'll be shocked by the difference in price between the two prices for the actual equipment. The big box store will arrange for installation by the same bunch of temporary technicians the local HVAC companies use during peak periods. They're on rotation at the big box stores, and get called in order of that rotation. Same technicians; same products. The only difference, really, is service after the sale. The big box stores suck at that. On price, though, local HVAC companies can't compete, to the economies of scale for the actual products.

[uponit7771]

36. All true, I just don't like the centralization of distribution/selling because a lack of oversight

[MineralMan]

37. Economics. It's all balanced by that.

When it comes to retail merchandise, there are a number of companies heavily engaged in that. Amazon is one, of course, but there are national retailers for a wide range of goods, competing for consumer dollars in every sector. Walmart and Target, too, market nationwide for a wide range of goods. For household goods, companies like Wayfair are also highly competitive for consumer dollars.

That is not to say that such national retailing doesn't hurt smaller retail businesses. It certainly does. However, there is no monopoly situation, except in some individual product lines, like books. Small, and even large booksellers have essentially be sidelined by Amazon, pretty much completely.

Why? Because consumers are extremely price-conscious and are more than willing to search for and buy products online. Places like Amazon also offer multiples of choices for any type of product, complete with customer reviews, complete product information, and immediate comparisons between products.

Add free, fast shipping to that and very liberal return policies, and people have little reason to get in their cars and go shopping. Even at the largest malls, like Mall of America, they will not find the same depth of product availability or ease of comparisons and the ability to read consumer reviews of products.

Convenience, money savings, and variety. That's what the national online retail shopping giants offer. Competing on those levels at a small scale is impossible, really. Customers clearly like shopping online and fast, free delivery.

In the end, it is the customers who decide where to buy. I don't see the situation changing, due to that factor alone.

[uponit7771]

39. Free market forces don't work good enough for oversight, look at healthcare in America

[friend of m and j]

19. Mineral Man; your post are always good

you are one of my favorites on DU.

You make people think.

[MineralMan]

38. That's very kind of you to say!

[niyad]

21. There was an issue with your earlier post??? I understood exactly what you meant, even before

coffee!

[aggiesal]

22. Yet nobody has responded with the word MONOPOLY ...

Amazon, Walmart and ..., will eventually own all the businesses and guess what?
They'll be able to set whatever price they can get with no competition.
This is exactly how monopolies are created.

First, they set prices so low that you can't ignore purchasing from them.
Second, once they have control, they can raise the prices as high as they want,
since there is no competition.
Third, all that local money doesn't stay local, it heads to corporate headquarters.
Fourth, those local workers, will shop at these monopolies as well and of course
their money will head out of town as well.

I do not shop at Walmart or Amazon.

[George II]

24. When that comes close to happening, let's address it. Until then, we shop at Amazon and Walmart....

Amazon at least once or twice a week.

[aggiesal]

26. They've already done it in some regions. n/t

[George II]

23. I agree. Too many are too quick to criticize if you don't shop at the local merchant, thinking....

...that you're bypassing local employees.

When we bought our appliances a few months ago (mentioned that in your other thread), it was from a big NE appliance chain. The guys who delivered it (although I wasn't happy with their attitude) were local, the truck wasn't even a company truck it was a contractor.

Every day around here we see Amazon trucks, at least 3 or 4, making deliveries in the neighborhood. They're driven by local people, and were loaded at a local distribution center populated by LOCAL people! These are not warehouses and trucks controlled by control centers in Seattle, they're our neighbors and maybe even friends.

That's the fallacy and silliness of the big bad Amazon facility in Queens that was campaigned against by some a couple of years ago. That would have employed 25,000-35,000 Queens or NYC people, and it would have paid local and state treasuries tens of millions of dollars in tax revenue. But due to shortsightedness on the part of some, it didn't come to pass and people of NYC and NYS are the losers.

(sorry for the rant!)

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

27. Similarly, I use a brand name cleaning service

to clean my small home every other week.

I HATE cleaning. I'm not good at it. I do a terrible job. It took me far too long to hire this company, but I finally did. Now my home is clean, and I can let people in and not be ashamed. Nor to I have to frantically clean (very badly) when anticipating visitors. Heck, when my sister was here earlier this year, after a health issue with me, the day my home was cleaned she was on the phone with someone and said, "Poindexter's home now sparkles." She got it right.

What I spend for the cleaning is the best money I have ever spend. Oh, and I provide employment.

I honestly think that recognizing your limitations is important. Hire out those things that you really cannot do yourself.

[Tree Lady]

28. All I know is Amazon is getting better with their employees

I think the union scare was good for that.

My granddaughters husband works there and they just had a baby and he is on 4 months paid paternity leave. Because he is used to working nights she pumps her breast milk and he gets up with baby at night so she can sleep. God I would have loved that!

I was also surprised how cheap the Kaiser medical is for them too. So Jeff Bezos is coming around.

I wish he paid more in taxes, but at least employees doing better.

[brooklynite]

32. More specifically, there is really no such thing as a "local" appliance dealer...

[MineralMan]

33. Here in the Twin Cities metro area, there are a few.

One, Warners' Stellian, is a mom and pop business that has been selling appliances in the area for decades. It's not a small outfit, though. It has a good website, and does a good business here. How profitable the business is, though, I don't know.

I priced the range I bought there, as well. The total cost, including the range, delivery, installation, and removal of the old appliance, was $400 more than it cost me to order from Wayfair. Same exact range. They didn't have it in stock, either and estimated a month before it could be delivered and installed. So, why should I pay $400 more for the exact same thing and services?

Really, that company focuses primarily on high-end appliances for affluent homeowners. They don't care if I buy a contractor-grade range from Wayfair. There's not enough profit in that sale to interest them. They have a beautiful showroom, though, with friendly salespeople. What you want, though, still isn't in stock, so you'll have to wait, and you'll have to pay considerably more. Some people don't mind that, I guess. I do. I'm not affluent, and can only afford the cheap, contractor-grade stuff. I'm not even their target consumer.

Retail that targets the affluent can be very successful, because they don't ask their customers to go look for things online. You come in, or a consultant comes to your home to show you what's available. Appliances, high-end furniture, bespoke products. That sort of thing. They offer personalized service, so you don't have to shop so much. Some people want that. Those people are their target audience, not me.

[RegularJam]

34. Delivery and instillation are around to stay.

Wasn’t aware this aspect was in question.

[Treefrog]

40. It has been around since my parents' days.

Not sure why this is considered new news somehow.