Banning CRT: Does this mean "To Kill a Mockingbird" is out?

[MissMillie]

An important piece of literature, and a classic, right?

[CurtEastPoint]

1. I had to Google it. Critical Race Theory.

[MissMillie]

2. I apologize. I thought I saw it here before.(n/t)

.

[CurtEastPoint]

4. No worry. Not enough coffee and my old IT brain said "Cathode Ray Tube."

[berniesandersmittens]

8. I thought "can't read that"

I can't keep up

[Cuthbert Allgood]

3. To Kill a Mockingbird has a lot of problems.

Disclaimer: High school English teacher here who has taught Mockingbird for over a dozen years and likes the book.

I think in the world of Critical Race Theory, Mockingbird has problems with white savior complex as well as a tacit approval of horrible actions by horrible people because they are "good at heart."

[MissMillie]

7. I think that's a fair assessment

Thank you for sharing it with me and giving me something to think about.

I'm in a VERY white region of a blue state. There was ONE person of color in my school system for the entire time I was there. I am absolutely okay admitting ignorance on many aspects of race and race relations. I have to admit that the "white hero" aspect is something I never considered.

[Wounded Bear]

23. My experience was similar growing up...

Was one, maybe two black kids in my high school. There were a few Asian kids, mainly Korean and Japanese.

Didn't interact much with blacks until my time in the USMC. Now in my late 60's and much of what's going on in race relations is still unfamiliar to me.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. This.

[snpsmom]

11. Absolutely agree

I'm forced to teach this at my school, so I use Facing History's framework. We interrogate the text to determine whether Atticus is actually the hero the novel seems to want to make him out to be. We also ask whose voices are missing and pair it with nonfiction titles and TED talks like Bryan Stevenson's.

[Goodheart]

12. Oh my god. Seriously?

Of course Atticus is a hero. "White savior complex"? Seriously? Atticus was precisely the type of person NECESSARY for the circumstances, and he came through as morally mandated despite risks within his own community. Would you prefer lynchings over a "white savior"?

And that's precisely how I'd respond to such inquiries if I were in your class.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. It's a beloved book. But if we're going to teach the book in schools, it's important to tease

out the messages the book gives -- and how different students might take those lessons. Here's another take:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/07/22/truths-kill-mockingbird-tells-about-white-people/

But the story is one by a white author, told through primarily white characters. Rereading the book, I was struck that Lee offers rich profiles of the story’s white characters, their personalities, mannerisms, dress, histories, but there are no such character studies to be found for any of the African Americans in this story. Their humanity is obscured from us, suggesting that it is of little consequence to the author, reader or the whites in Maycomb. White privilege means not actually having to know black or brown people, to live among them but to never really see them, even in one’s own house.

And that privilege extends to the hero of Lee’s novel in the minds of many readers: Atticus Finch. Generations of Americans have named their sons and pets for the lawyer and dad, who was based on the author’s father. The legend of Atticus Finch took on an outsized role with the unforgettable performance of actor Gregory Peck, who breathed life into the idea of a man apart from the Jim Crow South in the throes of the Great Depression.

Atticus has come to represent more than just a white savior. He stood in an Alabama courthouse not to block justice for a black man but to fight for it. In doing so, he wasn’t just attempting to save Tom Robinson (in an alternate version, he would have been the hero); he was absolving the entire white race from the ills of racism. Atticus is the unimpeachable and quintessential example of what it means to be a Good White Person, inspiring young people across the country to become lawyers and enabling white Americans to point again and again to a fictional character as proof that not all actual white people are racist.
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It is a myth, a lie that America tells itself that perpetuates racism. At best, he was the least overtly racist person in a racist town.

[Goodheart]

24. Sorry, but I had to chuckle at some of those contortions.

"enabling white Americans to point again and again to a fictional character as proof that not all actual white people are racist."

That's just insulting, as though so many white Americans are so crass and stupid.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. It's also inaccurate, as Atticus Finch himself is a bigot.

[shrike3]

43. Atticus Finch is a fictional character.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

49. And that character is a bigot.

[StarfishSaver]

33. Many white. Americans are that crass and stupid

Many others are neither crass nor stupid but are uninformed, unexposed and stuck in their own privileged perspectives.

[Goodheart]

53. Baloney

Your post borders on racism, quite frankly.

[uponit7771]

64. 77m mostly white people voted for most purposefully malignant racist president since Andrew Johnson

... am I wrong? tia

[StarfishSaver]

87. But not ALL white people, so shame on you for mentioning it

[Treefrog]

73. As are many people of all races.

Smh.

[Klaralven]

35. It was written by a white author for a white book-buying public, so that seems appropriate

At the time it was published, did the book have a positive or negative social effect on the white community? On the black community?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. If it's for a white audience, should it be used in a universal curriculum?

[Klaralven]

38. Yes, just as works by black authors writing for black audiences -unless you want separate but equal?

Although my preference would be to minimize altogether the study of fiction in schools.

Why are we spending instructional hours on imaginary stuff?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

45. Maybe because reading fiction makes people better able to empathize with others?

[Klaralven]

47. Essays and biographies can do that as well with more realism.

Although autobiographies are in sort of a twilight zone between non-fiction and fiction.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. I believe research has shown that reading fiction is the best at that.

[snpsmom]

78. You're absolutely correct. n/t

[WhiskeyGrinder]

60. The issue is when works are written for a certain audience or in a certain time and then taught

uncritically, which is often what happens with TKAM.

Why are we spending instructional hours on imaginary stuff?

Because telling stories is one of the most human things we can do, and is one of the best ways to learn about each other. It's hard to teach well, though.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

66. Are you honestly arguing that we shouldn't teach fiction?

I just can't if that's your argument.

[Klaralven]

77. If we're going to teach it, teach current fiction that would be interesting to the students.

And at least half should be in movie, video, social media, and gaming forms, since that is the way students will consume fiction once they leave school.

Most will never read another novel from the literary canon.

[tonedevil]

90. Let's make our children dolts. /nt

[Cuthbert Allgood]

48. There are a lot of problems with the white savior character.

One is that the only thing stopping things from getting better is one voice. It completely ignores the systemic racism and shows that people just aren't trying enough. And that that voice needs to be white is even more problematic. It's like all the super teacher movies. All it takes is just one teacher that cares enough to undo decades and generations of harm. It's just not realistic and romanticizes the solution(s) to the problem(s).

[Klaralven]

55. If Atticus Finch were black you'd need a new ending. Bob Ewell & the white townsfolk would lynch him

It would be an entirely different book.

Consider that it's setting is in the late '30s Deep South, and that it is a polemical fiction written in the late '50s with the objective of encouraging whites to support civil rights for blacks.

Support for black civil rights was a growing phenomenon among a certain segment of the white population when the book came out. I recall there was a white guy in my freshman English class who had spent the previous summer working in the South. The coeds were really impressed.

[snpsmom]

29. Yes, seriously

The falsely accused man, Tom Robinson, is never heard from except under questioning on the stand by Atticus. We hear how Jem feels about Tom Robinson's death, but we don't get Tom Robinson's family's feelings. Throughout the book, the white family and community's feelings are centered. In every discussion about the case with his children, Atticus reinforces the system of white supremacy by saying that's how things are, or good people can get caught up in a mob mentality. That is not how a hero behaves.

[Goodheart]

52. That's simply an astounding take.

Your objections to not hearing more about Tom Robinson and his family are a complaint against the book's AUTHOR, not against Atticus Finch. the character. So that part of your post is quite pointless.

As for the rest, NO, it does not "reinforce the system of white supremacy" to recognize how things are and then fight against your own community and interests to defend a victim, which is every bit heroic.

[snpsmom]

61. You seem really invested in this argument n/t

[treestar]

81. But if the white author did that

and went into Tom Robinson and his family's feelings, she would be accused of writing what she does not know about or understand.

[snpsmom]

82. Maybe

however, there is no consideration for those human feelings whatsoever in the novel. Tom Robinson, his wife, Helen, and their three children, are all devices to allow Atticus to act the hero. At no point do any of the other characters even wonder about the Robinsons' feelings, despite the fact that understanding of betrayal, loss, grief, and pain are not limited by race.

[StarfishSaver]

85. If she was writing about what she didn't know about or understand, readers would know it and that

would be a fair criticism.

But if she did know about people like Tom Robinson and his family, and wrote about them with truth, depth and sensitivity, such accusations would be unwarranted.

I love To Kill a Mockingbird. But I also see its weaknesses and one of the most serious weaknesses is the two-dimensional portrayal of the Black characters. Had the shallowness of their depictions been folded into the narrative - for example, as some have said here, if it was shown as a lack of awareness of the white characters, that problem would have been alleviated and would have made a very profound statement.

No one expects authors to know about or offer deep insights into every character they write about. But, unfortunately, To Kill a Mockingbird's Black characters are central/essential to the story, but they are treated more as a backdrop to the richly developed white characters with no inner lives of their own.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

41. You should probably read some essays by black authors about the white savior complex.

I realize this is a written medium without nuance, but your reaction seems to be kind of defensive and if you took some time and dug into this, I'm sure you would get it. If you were in my class, we would have time to explore and discuss this.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

15. Have you read Watchman?

There is a scene in it with Calpurnia that I would absolutely use if I were still teaching it (switched schools). Also, I love what Disrupt Texts offers.

Even when I read it in high school (when I was not liberal due to a conservative Catholic upbringing) I had huge problems with Atticus' attitude toward Mrs. Dubois. His attitude of respecting her because she tackled her addiction always left me with "yeah, but she's a HORRIBLE person."

[luckone]

19. I am glad you are there to educate future generations !

Never heard the TED talk but have heard Bryan Stevenson speak at events

[snpsmom]

31. I envy you!

Stevenson's message is so crucial. I always emphasize how hopeful he sounds in the TED talk. We use it as one of our "texts" for Socratic seminar.

[CTyankee]

50. I am eager to hear more about your "Facing History" class. What else do you cover?

There's a fine movie that I saw again the other night: Judgement at Nuremberg. There are several themes running through this movie but the main one "We didn't know" about Nazi atrocities (followed by "but what could we do?&quot . The whole movie is about moral choice and when that choice can cause dire consequences.

[snpsmom]

63. It's not a class (although that would be great)

Facing History and Ourselves is an organization that "uses lessons of history to challenge teachers and their students to stand up to bigotry and hate."

https://www.facinghistory.org/about-us

They have TONS of great resources.

[CTyankee]

74. There should be a module of the holocaust that can be used by teachers in middle school and up.

The lessons of the Holocaust should be taught to school kids, middle and high school.

[snpsmom]

79. They do have Holocaust resources! n/t

[cbabe]

62. Huckleberry Finn also

has many of the same problems. To counter the white gaze, try My Jim by Nancy Rawles, an author who has yet to receive the attention she deserves. (My first post after years of lurking. Cheers.)

[Cuthbert Allgood]

65. I have taught Huck Finn a lot of years, too. And I agree on the problematic aspects.

That book looks awesome. Thank you. I have a copy coming from Amazon already. I teach a marginalized voices literature class, so this will be a solid summer read.

[gopiscrap]

92. welcome to DU

[TomSlick]

88. But, but, but....

Atticus Finch is a hero (albeit fictional) for this white southern lawyer. It's not so much "white savior complex" as just "savior complex." I still choke up hearing "Jean Louise, stand up. Your father's passing."

This lawyer's heroes are the fictional Atticus Finch and the real-life Sam Adams defending British soldiers after the Boston Massacre. Both lawyers doing their professional duty in an unpopular cause.

At this point, at the nadir of a lackluster career, I still cling to the heroes of my youth.

[snowybirdie]

5. Who knows?

I'm not clear on what critical race theory actually is. Another made up phrase to make us think they are smart. LOL

[Sherman A1]

6. +1

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. Critical race theory is a way to talk about racism by examining how racial disparities and

oppression are systematically reproduced in our systems and institutions, starting with the legal system, despite liberal efforts at reform.

[snowybirdie]

13. Thank you

but still is cloudy as to how it actually impacts lives and society. And I really doubt the M.T. Greens of the world can even understand it at all. As I said, they are trying to confuse people with incomprehensible rhetoric.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

16. That's a pretty low fucking bar if we need MTG to understand it before we can use it.

CRT is complex and provides a fantastic lens through which to view the world.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. It impacts lives and societies because it helps people realize that systemic racism is not caused

only by racist actors within a system (managers who hire only white people, bankers who give better rates to white people, doctors who are dismissive of Black people) but because the systems themselves facilitate racism. When we understand that, we can build better systems (hiring practices that don't give preference to experiences that white people tend to have more of, loaning parameters that don't rely on wealth that is more likely to be inherited or backed by family members, etc.). ETA: It started as a critique of the legal system.

[StarfishSaver]

34. Excellent explanarion

Thanks

[Goodheart]

14. That's correct. Who would know how to teach such vagueness in the first place?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

18. Plenty of people understand how to use it in their teaching.

Teaching is hard. This is no harder than the rest and probably more vital.

[Goodheart]

22. I think that's a bit biased and hyperbolic.

More vital than math and science? I'm ALL FOR teaching about the horrors of racism and inequities in our society, but how much time should we allow polemics without true methodologies?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. CRT is not something that's "taught," despite what you might understand from Republican rhetoric.

[Goodheart]

26. And there you go... you have a clear dispute with Cuthbert Allgood

who defends its teaching.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

28. No, there's no dispute there.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Not sure why you're trying to pit us against each other, but okay.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

32. Yeah, seems like an attempt to deflect.

Especially since my statement was that people know how to use it in their teaching. Not that it is CRT week in English 11 today.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

37. Yep. You were clear.

[Hortensis]

44. :) This thread has some good discussion, and thanks.

Seems probable that anyone who just hadn't been exposed to the concept yet will come away with at least a bit more understanding.

[Goodheart]

54. I'm not trying to pit you against each other.

That's just your deflection from an inconsistency between you and him/her.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

67. It's not an inconsistency.

You seem to want there to be one, but there isn't.

[luckone]

20. Who are "they"? What is incomprehensible?

[snowybirdie]

42. They seem to be MAGA folks

and they do not read anything longer than a tweet, let alone textbook descriptions of philosophical explanations.

[Azathoth]

39. Actually, CRT enthusiasts are more likely to attack TKAM for "white saviorism" nt

[cinematicdiversions]

40. Well it survived the Me Too era (Barely)

I am sure it will survive the CRT movement as well.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

46. There have been discussions about the appropriateness of the novel

for quite some time now for those that teach literature. The last 5-8 years has seen a very active movement away from it to more authentic voices to teach about racism.

[Polybius]

51. When I first saw the topic I got nervous

Last edited Wed Jun 2, 2021, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

To me, CRT means cathode-ray tube: The big-back TV's we all had before the mid 2000's. I still have a collection.

[Klaralven]

56. Heavy, hard on the eyes, and gives off dangerous emissions

[Polybius]

57. But CRT TV's are great for retro gaming, and still have the best depth and perfect color blacks

Plus watching anything you have saved in 4:3 ratio (such as 80's TV shows), rather than today's 16 widescreens.

[BannonsLiver]

58. Wasn't TKM canceled years ago by early wokists?

[Klaralven]

59. TKM was to white supporters of civil rights as Uncle Tom's Cabin was to abolitionists

[apnu]

69. ... a starting point to getting people off the couch and into the debate?

Or do you mean something else?

[Klaralven]

76. As emotional predicates for adopting political positions.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

68. So you have no problems with the book?

[marble falls]

71. My problem with the book was that they treated the black characters paternalistically ...

And I get it: I'm reading what was happening then in the context of today.

What it ends up boiling down to is: Are we teaching the American novel using TKAMB as the example, or are we teaching TKAMB to demonstrate how social issues are made literary in American novels? Are we using TKAMB to demonstrate AA experience in the American Novel and aren't there better ones to concider using, like these authors' books :

https://www.pbs.org/black-culture/explore/10-black-authors-to-read/

It just seems that TKAMB was about the Finch family's attitudes, that the AA characters were there almost as props.

[electric_blue68]

75. Thanks - that was a nice compact list of whom...

I've read some of the authors, but not others.
Will see what comes up on my library's e-book list. 👍


On a side note (even if his presidency didn't always live up to my expectations) I got to hear Maya Angelou read her Poem for Bill Clinton's first Inauguration in person. It was like a two for one event. I was so excited!

[marble falls]

89. Rita Dove was a friend and classmate in high school. Wonderful poet. I really mean wonderful.

[StarfishSaver]

86. This is not uncommon in art and literature

A friend who's a successful film actor told me that until fairly recently he frequently had to insist that the screenwriter write in additional characters and dialogue to give his characters more of an inner life. As originally written, his characters often tended to be very one-dimensional with no families or backstory while the white characters had fully fleshed out lives, relationships, etc.

He said this was very common in Hollywood and many successful Black film actors had to use their clout to change it. It's better now, but still sometimes a problem.

[marble falls]

91. I think that's true. I think a lot of it is about if there were few black main charaters, there ...

... were even fewer black writers writing stories with black main characters.


Things have gotten better, but it is a long time coming.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

70. It is an important piece of literature.

Anyone who reads it or teaches it can ground it in the era in which it was written and published.

[snpsmom]

80. You know,

I'm a bit tired of hearing this old saw. People then knew Jim Crow was wrong. People during revolutionary times knew slavery was wrong. It was just convenient and personally comfortable not to go against the system.

Some spoke up and were more evolved (woke, if you will) even "in the era in which {To Kill a Mockingbird] was written and published." It's not okay to continue excusing the system. We need to acknowledge that the system was/is wrong, that people who were/are raised within it and perpetuate(d) it were/are wrong, even though they were raised within it.

It's fine to say that those people, in that time, were like fish swimming in water, who can't even realize that there is water. But the fact is that all kinds of characters (Scout, Jem, Dill, Miss Maudie) call out the problem in the book in the era in which it was written and published, and are told that that's just the way it is. And that argument sounds a lot like the discussion some in this thread are making today.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

83. "Anyone who reads it or teaches it can ground it in the era in which it was written and published."

Which is what a CRT approach to literature can do.

[StarfishSaver]

84. That's what educators are trying to do

But, for some reason, putting books like To Kill a Mockingbird in context is verboten these days - because the context makes some people very uncomfortable.