The Story of the Football Coach Who Forced a Pork-Abstinent Kid to Eat Pork

[MineralMan]

Last edited Thu Jun 3, 2021, 11:57 AM - Edit history (3)

Original DU Post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215489789

Brings back memories for me that explain why I'm not a fan of High School Sports

Why I rejected organized sports in high school.

I was a very coordinated, strong kid by my sophomore year. In PE class, I was always the first kid to finish a race, was over 6' tall, could shoot baskets accurately, and generally performed in most areas near the top of whatever group I was in. I was little skinny for football, but in PE class, I could pass accurately and even kick field goals consistently.

So the coaches of the basketball, track, and football team recruited me hard. Clearly, I had native skills that could be developed. I told them all, "no thanks." I was into music, not sports. I played in the band and sang in several choral groups. I excelled in those. The coaches kept trying, even though I said I was not interested and didn't have enough time to do everything.

At some point in my sophomore year, those coaches quit trying to recruit me, and switched over to ridiculing me. "What are you? Some kind of sissy queer?" "Afraid of getting hurt, you crybaby?" "Band and chorus are for girls." "Be a man and join the team or you're just a pitiful weakling." Stuff like that.

In my junior year, they got even worse. I'd get called out in PE class. One time, the football coach called me to the front during a class on boxing, to spar with him. He clocked me with a left hook and left me dizzy for the rest of the day. He got to meet my father the next day, and that was the last time he ever spoke to me at all. I was a straight A student, but the PE teachers, who were also the coaches, gave me Ds.

In my senior year, I stopped attending PE classes. I was running three hours every morning delivering milk to people's homes before school, and convinced the administration that I was getting plenty of physical exercise. I also reminded them of the time my father had to come to school and educate that football coach. They waived me out of PE for my last year at school. I spent that time in the library.

I'm not a fan of high school sports, nor of the types of people who coach high school teams. Nope. It is a toxic environment for all but a few kids who are dedicated players.

Disclaimer: Not all high school team coaches are like that, of course. But, there are enough stories that are similar to mine to warrant taking a closer look at high school organizes sports, I think.

ETA: I changed the title of this post, because some people pointed out to me that "Jewish" was not accurate, despite the original source I read using that term. I hope the content of my post is what people read, not just the title, which is now changed.

[secondwind]

1. This is some story, Mineral Man. Wow 😳

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. Hebrew Israelite.

[malaise]

3. I now many stories like yours

Many coaches are bullies and child abusers who who are only there to make a name for themselves by any means necessary, including destroying young people.

[Aristus]

4. I was lucky.

I was in marching band in high school. Marching band counted as a credit to PE. Never had to go through that stuff.

I played football in junior high, down in Texas where football is less a sport, and more of a religion. The coaches were hard-drivers, but not abusive, believe it or not. They also doubled as spectacularly inept classroom teachers.

My parents pulled me from the team when my grades started to suffer. And that was the end of my career in football.

[obamanut2012]

5. Hebrew Israelite, not Jewish

There is a huge difference. There are not Jewish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

[Effete Snob]

8. The Anti-Defamation League, on "Hebrew Israelites"

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/extremist-sects-within-the-black-hebrew-israelite-movement

Black Hebrew Israelites are not Jews and Black Jews are not the same as Black Hebrew Israelites. Black Jews and Jews of color are genuine members of the Jewish faith. Black Hebrew Israelites identify specifically with the biblical Israelites and consider Judaism, Christianity and Islam to be false religions. Many BHI teachers claim that Jews and other white people forced Black individuals into other religions. Extreme factions believe white Jews are perpetuating identity theft.

....

BHI teachings become explicitly hateful when coupled with racial superiority and accusations against white individuals and specific hatred towards the Jewish community. Extremist Black Hebrew Israelites assert that white people are agents of Satan, Jews are liars and false worshipers of God, and Blacks are racially superior and the only true “chosen people.” Some extremist leaders preach that only true descendants of the Twelve Tribes (Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Indians based on their beliefs) will be allowed into heaven, and that God will permit them to rule over all other races. Leaders and street teachers also push homophobic, transphobic and sexist beliefs, including referring to the LGBTQ community as demonic and not loved by God.

Extremist sects represent a vocal subsection of the larger BHI movement. Just as not all BHI adherents are extremist, not all extremist sects preach the same level of hatred. The most active extremist sects have hardened their messages after decades of operation.

[MineralMan]

10. Do they eat pork? Do Muslims? Do Jews?

[MineralMan]

13. See my link to the original thread this is based on.

Do Muslims eat pork? Jews? Black Israelites? You are missing my point with your focus on details.

Interesting.

[MineralMan]

11. Do Black Israelites eat pork. Do Muslims? Do Jews?

What does that matter with regard to my point?

[MineralMan]

16. Again, see my link to the original post that triggered my post.

I did not mislabel. Perhaps the media mislabeled. I read a post here, and linked to it.

In any case, my post is about coaches and my personal experience with them.

[MineralMan]

22. I DID edit my post title. Is that change enough for you?

I based my original post on a major news outlet's story, as related on DU.

Now you might want to read the post for its content. That'd be great.

[BannonsLiver]

7. Confirmation bias in action.

[MineralMan]

14. I told my story. I followed it with a disclaimer.

[Marrah_Goodman]

9. There are bad coaches yes, but there are also very good ones

My guy coached pop-warner and then HS football for decades. He and his coaching staff were awesome with the kids. The kids loved them and so did the parents. His son is now a college sports coach.

It is up to school administrators to hire good people and to get rid of any bad ones.

One other thing: HS sports really varies regionally. I live in NE. From what I hear there is much more focus aggressively on sports over academics in other parts of the country.

[CentralMass]

19. I agree. There are a lot of good coaches and for many kids school sports are a postive thing.

It is unfortunate that there are also some bad ones. There are also good and bad teachers etc.. and kids have different likes and abilities.

[Ocelot II]

12. When I was in high school girls didn't do sports, so I wasn't personally subjected

to that sort of thing (and I wouldn't have been recruited for a team anyhow, since I tended to trip over my own feet). However, I do remember a history teacher who was also the hockey coach, and he was a right asshole who mostly talked about hockey and from whom I learned very little history. The hockey team won a lot of games, though, which I guess is what mattered to the school board.

[Ilsa]

41. When I was in high school, girls basketball was

a contact sport, even though a team's offense and defense were divided by a center court line. (Violating the center line made for thick chapter in the rule book with foot faults, fouling an opponent over the line, etc.) Those girls were big, aggressive, even mean. So were their coaches, even the women coaches.

I had only one decent coach who was a teacher. The rest were uninvolved.

[Siwsan]

17. Without a shadow of a doubt, that my father was the extreme opposite kind of coach.

He was, at the time, also a teacher. His always felt his first job was to mentor. He started coaching in the early 50's and some of his earliest players were still taking him out for drinks, 40 years later. He's been gone since 1999 but I still run into people who are full of fond memories of him.

Dad would voice his disappointment with his team if they won, despite not playing their best. And he'd congratulate them if they lost, but DID give it their best effort. He was also known to drop in to the opposition's dressing room to congratulate the team that beat his. His goal, in coaching, was to build character. Winning a championship was a bonus. And, he did.

The school system did eventually suffer through a coach like the one you describe. He didn't last long. My dad, the man who coached before him, and the ones immediately after, set a really high standard.

[Baitball Blogger]

18. You definitely skirted the traditional experience.

And you made the best, strong choices. Good for you. And good on your father's part for supporting you!

My daughter was very athletic, and I got to see several examples of very bad coaches. Two types of coaches send red flags up for me. Coaches who are strapped for money, who have children on the team; and high school coaches with military background.

I look back at the methods the guy with the military background used on our girls. He connected best with parents who shared his military background or his alma mater, and their children were treated kinder. He made some bad coach decisions in our games to give these children opportunities that cost us games. On the other hand, those who were ethnic, and who had talent he put through boot camp. We had one girl who had mad skills and he would brutalize her on the field when he played defense against her. He was a man and she was a high school kid, and he came at her with such physicality that he left the child with bruises. It was a lack of skill on his part. He couldn't teach her anything but grit. This child would make it to play in college, but to reach the level where she could handle that level of physical abuse, her college coaches would ensure that she was weight lifting and building a good muscle base.

He would put the girls through a training day where they went to a camp for a day for team building exercises. One event was particularly suspicious. There was a board that couldn't have been more than 18 inch square. The entire team had to stand on that board at the same time. They all went on the board one by one. There was a lot of giggling and it required a lot of them wrapping their arms around their team mates. Well, guess who was the last one to step on the board? Yep. The coach. The girls complained afterwards, because it made them feel uncomfortable. One of the mothers who was hoping for a reference to put her child in military school just said, "We need to get him a wife." That's how white people handle these kind of things.

[MineralMan]

25. Not really, actually. Most high school students do NOT participate

in extracurricular team sports. Team athletes are a minority of students in almost all schools. The problem was that I displayed raw talent and had good mind/body coordination. That made me desirable to those team coaches. When they discovered that i wasn't interested in playing sports, they turned ugly. That was the problem.

I was equally talented academically and in the performing arts. That's what I chose, and that pissed of those coaches, who were idiots of the first water, apparently.

[tblue37]

24. "First Practice," by Gary Gildner

FIRST PRACTICE

by Gary Gildner

After the doctor checked to see
we weren't ruptured,
the man with the short cigar took us
under the grade school,
where we went in case of attack
or storm, and said
he was Clifford Hill, he was
a man who believed dogs
ate dogs, he had once killed
for his country, and if
there were any girls present
for them to leave now.

No one
left. OK, he said, he said I take
that to mean you are hungry
men who hate to lose as much
as I do. OK. Then
he made two lines of us
facing each other,
and across the way, he said,
is the man you hate most
in the world,
and if we are to win
that title I want to see how.
But I don't want to see
any marks when you're dressed,
he said. He said, Now.

[MineralMan]

26. Thanks for sharing that!

I had not seen it before.

[tblue37]

27. I retired from teaching college English 2 years ago, but one course I often taught was

Introduction to Poetry.

The students liked that poem a lot.

[MineralMan]

31. I taught a class similar to that as a graduate student.

I had succeeded in having several poems published by poetry journals of good reputation, so the English Department Head asked if I'd take over a class called, "Introduction to Writing Poetry." Of course, most of it was learning about poetry that had already been written and attempting to write one's own poetry. It was a popular class, actually, and ended with a public reading of the students' selected poetry at a local coffee house that frequently held poetry readings. I knew the owner of the coffee house, and had read poetry there myself, as well as playing music there frequently with the woodwind quintet I was part of.

It was great fun and a good experience for the students.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

28. Lol. The older I get, the better I was.

[MineralMan]

43. Thanks for the gratuitous snark.

Really. Now, I'm waiting for the others to show up.

[mitch96]

29. "He got to meet my father the next day, that was the last time he ever spoke to me at all"

I had a similar situation, not with a coach but a principal. He kicked me in the ass for "not doing better" in class... I mentioned it to my pugnacious father and he had a private "talk" with the guy... He never spoke to me again.. After that I always, Always ALWAYS Got poor grades in every class... I was shunned... Could not to wait to get out of that dump...
m

[PurgedVoter]

30. I totally agree and more

First off, sports cannot be fair. I was born with advantages and disadvantages. So were you. So was everyone. In my youth, no one could beat my on a bicycle. A lot of kids could beat me in a race. It was not an issue of fitness, it was an issue of natural form.

That said, if we taught English the way we teach P.E. There would be a high school team that could read and write and everyone else would be illiterate.

There are some wonderful coaches out there, but lets tell the truth, Football does not pay for itself and it causes permanent knee and brain damage. We spend fortunes on high school football and give coaches a pass on some of the worst behavior.

[radicalleft]

34. Uhmmm, actually the football program in a LOT of schools

pays for the less popular sports. In my Childs case, the FB program is the only program that does make money for the athletic department. Lacrosse, track (fall X-county and spring T&F), golf, tennis and swim team are all money losers that are in part subsidized by football.

Conversely, collegiate football often benefits others student athletes by funding the scholarship pool...

[pandr32]

32. The solution you came up with was great

...but, I can't help but think of all those kids that don't deliver milk or have a father able to "come to school and educate that football coach."

Bullying by teachers happens.

[MineralMan]

38. Yes, exactly. While I was unaware of most of that at the time,

I've learned more since then. Most high school students end up getting what they get from the school they attend. Sadly, that is not always what they could get if they were noticed by faculty people. The problem causers and the high achievers got most of the attention. The bulk of students got what they could absorb on their own in class and by doing homework, without much additional help from anyone.

Once again, I had privilege I did not recognize at the time. By the time I was out of high school, I had begun to understand how my unearned privilege benefitted me, while others did not have even their basic needs met.

[pandr32]

47. I made several trips to the high school to advocate for my kids

I even took on the school board once.

The truth is privilege is part of what you had, but many kids who otherwise have privilege don't have parents that give any of their precious (sarcasm) time to them. I've seen it.

I think this is part of why there are so many teachers that do what they do.

[Fla Dem]

33. I was in band, orchestra and choral group. Also played varsity sports.

But then I was a girl. Played field hockey, basketball and softball. We competed with other schools. Received 4 letters. All the coaches for the women's teams were women and were excellent role models. They were also the girl's
gym teachers. If I remember correctly, our male coaches/gym instructors were also very much respected and liked.

Can't remember how I juggled everything, but I just guess when your young and enjoy what you're doing you make things work.

I'm sorry you had an unpleasant experience during your time in high school. Those memories never seem to go away.

[HUAJIAO]

35. I don't care for HS sports either. I'm a musician, since 10 years old.

And BTW, you have enormous patience.

[dsc]

36. I was mercilessly tormented by my Kindergarten / 1st grade PE teacher

I was, by self admission, a total disaster at sports. To give you one example, I was good at only one thing athletically when I was at that age, I could kick a kick ball far and in the field. So that was the one time I felt even basically competent at sports. Well, he decided to pitch to me, and only me, the ball bouncing up and down a ton vs just on the ground. He then would literally call me names when I was unable to kick it in the field of play. And I just took it, since I was, just not good at sports.

I finally told on him when he gave us a quiz on scoring bowling and I aced it (he gave it as a pre test but I had been keeping score for my parents league so I knew how to do it). He accused me of cheating as I couldn't possibly know how to do this. I could abide being treated poorly for my lack of athletic ability, which was apparent, but to be accused of both dishonestly and stupidity was more than I was going to tolerate. I told my parents all of it. Both of them were teachers (mom in the same district, dad not). My mom confronted him in front of a class of students and read him out of his name. My dad did so after school one day. He left at the end of that year.

[oldsoftie]

37. I got the same thing being in Drama Club

My response was "I get to hang out with some of the best looking girls in school & even make out with them depending on the play. You shower with 75 guys"
That usually shut them up

[MineralMan]

40. LOL!

I hung out with the girls in the band and choral groups, too. They were happy to teach me how to behave properly in many ways. It all worked out pretty well in the long term.

[GoodRaisin]

39. I played football, basketball, and tennis in high school.

Enjoyed the hell out of it. Basketball was my first love. I fed off the competitive part of it.
I came from a sports family.

But kids should never be harassed into doing it. There's no excuse for that. Even being an athlete myself I was never much of a fan of required gym class. Some of the required things I've seen in there cross the line in my view. Boxing? F'ing ridiculous.

Even while playing sports I got some harassment from the coaches when I let my hair grow out and was seen mingling with the "hippies" out on the smoking block. I didn't care, it didn't have any bearing on how I practiced and played. I figured they'd just have to get over it. Nobody tells me who I can or can't hang out with. Not then, not now.

[MineralMan]

42. There's absolutely nothing wrong with organized sports,

for those who want to participate and are athletic. They are an opportunity to learn certain skills, teamwork, competitiveness, leadership, etc.

However, the band is the same thing. You learn the same things. So is the school chorus or math club. All of those activities teach similar things. To each his or her own, I think.

My issue was the attitudes of the team coaches when I showed no interest, despite having good natural skills. I found that annoying at the very least, and worse at the very worst.

My concern now, however, is with all of the students who don't get to participate in any of those things. They make up a majority of students, I believe.

[GoodRaisin]

68. Your coaches and my coaches had the same problem, which was

a basic lack of respect, and ignorance. What you describe tells me they disrespected your musical talents and your right to pursue those talents freely. Their attitude was non-caring about non-sports activities and they showed ignorance of values the kids gain from participation in "non-sports" activities. Instead, they became bullies. In my case, I took a lot of verbal bullying for the "crime" of merely being myself instead of conforming to their narrow expectations of how I "should" present myself and the company I keep. I'll admit it was hurtful when I was criticized in the presence of other team members. It was pure disrespect of someone different than them. I ended up dropping football partly because of that reason in my junior year and said I was going to focus on basketball instead.

I think by and large there's much more sensitivity today to this sort of thing than when we were in school in the 60s and 70s. This pizza eating incident probably would not have made the news today. Obviously, there are always going to be a few knuckleheads that don't get it. When it happens they need to be purged from the school system and school policy needs to be reviewed.

[Ka-Dinh Oy]

44. I loathed PE in high school.

The PE teacher would always make the cheerleader girls the head of the teams of whatever sport we were doing. The girls would then take turns picking who they wanted for their team. At the end they argued on who had to have me. Whoever got me benched me the entire time and the PE teacher seeing this would say nothing to them. The PE teacher then failed me for lack of participation every time.

At the end of sophomore year I told my mother that I did not care how she did it but she needed to get me excused from PE for the rest of my time in high school. She managed to do it. I did take PE a few more times by choice because they had a swimming class that had no team activities and was a different teacher. I got an A each time I took that class.

This type of thing tends to show just how bad sports can be in high school even if it is not the sports for after school.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

45. The football and wrestling coaches at my high school...

... were the biggest jerks among all of the athletic coaches that I met there.

The football coach was a major knucklehead and bully. I would've never played on that team if he'd begged me, but that never happened despite how I was athletic and fast too.

The tennis coach begged me to join the team after he saw me play during an outdoor gym class. I'd been playing tennis against my older brother for several years by then, at some nearby tennis courts (free), so I was indeed a pretty good player. I was even beating my brother sometimes by that age, and he'd beat some guys at Wright-Patt AFB who had competed in the sport.

I liked the tennis coach, but his plea happened around the same time that I became strongly lactose intolerant and I didn't know it! All I knew was that I was ready to explode with gassy-buildup around the time the final school bell sounded -- a few hours after I naively drank milk at lunchtime -- so I wanted to get home ASAP to release it privately. And I was too embarrassed to explain it to the tennis coach or anyone else back then.

[TomDaisy]

46. I'm going to write a book about this some day

about what a horrible experience it was for our entire family for my daughter to play soccer --- because of the coach.

He was tyrannical. She wanted to be on the team because all her friends were and would not consider quitting. Plus they "threaten" you with "without a sport on your child's resume they'll never get into college!!!!" "You'll need a soccer scholarship to pay for college!" HELLO. There are actuality few scholarships for female soccer players in college. Few and paltry.

He would yell at them until they cried. He would treat them like army recruits instead of young girls.

He would arbitrarily bench them. He extorted all manner of funding out of us - for equipment, for travel, for "team spirit" dinners. Thousands of dollars. (You don't pay? Oh, looks like your daughter just got benched. Bad attitude!) We paid out more than we could have ever earned with a soccer scholarship. I guess this made him feel important.

Oh -- and it's "highly recommended" that you take private coaching on the side at $60 an hour from one of this "crew" at the soccer club. If you don't -- well pretty sure you're B team or cut. Funny how that works.

Nearly every weekend was ruined by travel to this and that tournament. I spent many weekends washing 20 uniforms in the hotel basement washing machines.

And you were NOT ALLOWED to take a family vacation over the summer and miss practice - because that meant you "weren't serious."

And finally, he cut my daughter. "She didn't have the skills." I PAID YOU TO TEACH HER THE SKILLS. I PAID YOUR BUDDIES $60 AN HOUR FOR MONTHS TO TEACH HER THE SKILLS. WTF!!! She cried for DAYS. It CRUSHED her. It damaged her. I was so damn ANGRY! And the other parents just went along because they knew with her gone it was protecting a place for their daughter on this team from hell. Thanks, friends!

God I hate this man so very very very much. With white hot rage.

Turns out, however, that after having this odious burden of soccer lifted form our family, we could actually enjoy the weekend. We could actually go on vacations. Long ones. My daughter ramped up on AP classes because she now had time to do homework! She joined a service organization. She learned to play the guitar, which she still loves and enjoys. And she got into her dream school. Without soccer on her resume.

Team sports in high school are toxic. Fight me.

[MineralMan]

50. Yours is not an uncommon story.

There's another common story, too. Many parents push their children into sports, for many reasons. Often, they insist on their child participating, whether the kid wants to or not. It's a huge mistake that sometimes harms kids in very serious ways.

Some people choose a sport, based on their own participation or because of possible scholarships, which usually do not materialize.

Some sports have other drawbacks. Girls' gymnastics, for example. So much emphasis is put on keeping gymnasts' weights low that eating disorders are pretty common among gymnasts. Each sport has its own benefits and problems. For many kids, sports are not even fun. They should be. If they aren't, then it might be time to rethink.

[TomDaisy]

61. no one tells parents these things when they are just getting started on the school journey.

[RegularJam]

48. Thankfully I had a much different experience.

Possibly because I'm not as gifted as you but I have a feeling it was mostly environmental. Our high school sports program was amazing and the coaches were all about building up the students. Truly a thing of beauty.

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. Every time I think we should get rid of all school sports except for the pure fun of them,

I'm reminded of the jocks I went to school with and am reminded that without sports, the barely literate underachieving uncurious knowledge-shunning morons wouldn't have had anything to do and would end up with no point in their life that they were valued.

We nerds and geeks got shat on all the time in school, but post high school we get the benefit of running the world and being successful and not being stuck with a house full of photos of us in high school and sad memories of a time when we were kings of the world.

** of course, not all jocks are barely literate underachieving uncurious morons. Just almost all of them. Our Valedictorian was a hell of a good wrestler; but then, wrestlers (and swimmers) also weren't worshiped the way the basketball, baseball, track, and football players were. Our football and basketball heroes (who were shitty people in school) turned out to be adult shitty failures.

I am curious, though, what would happen if a school decided no more money spent on bullshit toxic masculinity activities that only benefit a few genetically lucky kids (baseball, basketball, football, LaCrosse, hockey, soccer), and put half that money into sports that are less harmful and more team-based that most everyone could participate in (golf, track and field, gymnastics, curling) and the other half into activities that matter like theater, orchestra, and other music/arts, that could end up reaching far more kids/dollar than any of the sports.

[Mosby]

51. Thx for the edit, MM.

I enjoy reading your recollections.

My football coach was the biology teacher, we didn't get along very well. He used to make rude comments to me in class for no reason.

[MineralMan]

55. Our biology teacher was the basketball coach.

I took Chemistry and Physics, instead. Those were taught by actual teachers who understood the subjects. I took Biology in my freshman year of college.

The biology teacher wanted me on the basketball team, and got royally miffed when I didn't sign up. I used to get a kick out of using free time during gym class to shoot free throws when he was there. I had an 80% average. Annoyed the crap out of him.

[usaf-vet]

52. If memory serves me right Uncle Sam had no trouble utilizing your skills.

Same with my dad he was USN Radioman who was intercepting German UBoat communications using technology the at the time was top secret. The troops called it Huff-Duff. Now declassified and (aka High Definition Radio Directional ) finding.

[MineralMan]

60. Yes. All that nonsense ended after high school graduation.

I moved away from my small town in California just before my freshman year in college, and never lived there again, although I visited my parents frequently.

I finally went to a class reunion, the 50th, where all of those cliquey things had completely disappeared. People remembered me for being a smart, musically talented kid with a penchant for doing elaborate practical jokes that were executed for the entire school. Most of my class's teachers were dead, with a couple of notable exceptions from people we all loved as teachers.

But, as you say, when I dropped out of college and enlisted in the USAF, that branch of the service tested people and moved them into specialties when the testing showed strong aptitude. Becoming a Russian linguist never entered my mind, but it turned out to be something I could do at a very high level.

After the USAF, I found my way again, finished college and set off on a very varied life.

Little I learned in high school was any later use to me.

[usaf-vet]

62. The USAF testing put me exactly where i want to go. Medics specially a Scrub Tech.

Usually 2-3 Doc's in the room. 1 RN. And me. Not bad for an 18-year-old kid who was told by guidance counselors. Plan on a career fixing things. Cars, plumbing, carpentry you know things using tools. Turns out their crystal ball was a little out of focus.

I did have tools and helped to fix things. Absolutely love that job and would have stayed with it back in civilian life BUT......

You have to be "trained to do that in a civilian school". No direct crossover from the military to a civilian job. It is better now but still not great.

I bet you can still speak Russian and I'm damn sure I could still scrub in all these years later.

[Sympthsical]

53. Depends on the school, depends on the coaches. Yours is a broad brush.

I had very positive experiences with high school sports. Good to decent coaches. I loved my track coach who was also my AP English teacher. The man knew how to motivate and provide support. He pushed me and taught me that it isn't whether or not I succeed, but whether or not I maintain the determination to do so. I've always been a naturally stubborn person, but he redirected that stubbornness into a positive outlet. Instead of always saying no, which I had been doing a lot of as a teenager, he taught me how to not take no for an answer when working towards a goal.

I also did the other things. Was in band briefly (I'm a pianist, but could play the tuba, so that happened), choir, did drama, scholastic bowl, etc.

It's not an either/or proposition.

Oftentimes, we hear about the shitty coaches, because the really shitty ones are the ones who make headlines. We hear about the shitty schools and figure most of them must be shitty.

I wonder if Mr. B is still alive. I'm going to go see if I can find out. I'd like to write him a nice note, if so.

So thanks for this thread, in a roundabout way.

[MineralMan]

56. Mine is not a brush at all. It is a personal experience.

You had a different experience.

[Warpy]

54. I was thrilled when PE became an elective for girls

I dropped it so fast the gym shower cracked.

Coaches were all bullies, IMO, even though they passed it off as motivating students to do better and never realize there might be health issues at work making students fall short of the jock ideal.

In fact, the only time I ever appreciated one was when the football coach had to substitute teach an English class. The first loudmouthed punk who wised of at him got dropped ass down in the trash can next to the desk. The coach then soldiered on, with frequent leaning over to the kid in the trash can to ask "What's this here word, boy?"

To a 15 year old who was sick of loudmouthed punks, it was hilarious. Now the coach would get fired. The only harm to the punk was to his dignity and there wasn't much of that to harm so it didn't last long.

High school is something most of us remember as a period of basic survival. PE made that so much more difficult for most of us. It gave me an absolute loathing of organized sports that has lasted a lifetime.

[hunter]

57. In middle and high school NOBODY wanted me on their team.

I was always the last kid picked. The overweight kid with the coke bottle glasses, the kid who couldn't run all the way to first base, he got picked before I did.

I was a skinny squeaky klutzy highly reactive kid; a chew toy for the bullies. They called me queerbait. I was regularly beaten and bloodied.

My P.E. teachers were not so bad as yours except when they advised me my life might be easier if only I could "be a man."

Biological manliness really wasn't in the cards for me yet. I only started developing manly traits a year or two after I'd quit high school.

(Unfortunately, I immediately got picked up by an extremely aggressive and sometimes violent girlfriend who was attracted by my lack of manly traits, but that's another story...)

It's possible my middle and high school P.E. teachers, who were also coaches, were easy on me because they were terrified of my mom. The berserker genes are strong in my mom and she knew all the dirt in the local school district.

Quitting high school at sixteen was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life, and yeah, high school "sports" were part of that.

There's only one good reason for high school sports and that's to promote healthy physically active lifestyles for EVERYONE. U.S.A. high schools still fail miserably at that.

I began to understand sports in college, playing recreational softball and running cross country. Never excelled at either but learned how sports might be valuable.

[MineralMan]

59. From what I understand, regular PE classes are no longer offered

in most high schools. They've been budgeted out of existence. I'm sure there are some schools that still hold mandatory PE classes, but it's a dying trend. In my day, back in the late 1950s-60s, they were mandatory as were the mass showers after each class. I never gave those showers a thought, but I realized later that they were very traumatic for some of my fellow students. I think mass showers were the first thing to go, followed by gym-based PE in general.

[multigraincracker]

58. I was the black sheep of the family.

Dad and brother were big time football stars. Brother played in a in a Rose Bowl game. Dad went to college for free because of football. Both and mom were post grad degrees
I was always in trouble. A regular at the principles office.
Football couch gave me such a hard time one day he got reported about it and got fired. So I got sent away to military school(reform school in those days) and did really good. Got me in college but was barely passing when I dropped out
20 some years latter a shrink
Made in all clear. ADHD and learning disabilities. Doc told me if I went back to school and sat in the front row I’d get all A s. He was right.
I never enjoyed sports and think
They need to be removed from schools.
They are not for everyone and the pressure to play is insane.

[1cheapbeemr]

63. In the suburbs, it's the HS coaches who grant masculine status

If you're a jock you're a man, if you're not you're not.

When my father was in high school in the 1940's, he was varsity baseball and football - but his graduating class had 80 kids in it, so 40 boys, everybody interested gets a chance to play. In my time, class size was around a thousand; and the guys on the teams had been semipro since they were about 6, thanks to fathers, a lot of cops and firemen it seemed with a lot of time off, who gave their sons intense attention.

Concurrently, as outlined in William Whyte's 1956 book, The Corporate Man, it was becoming mandatory for everyone to be sports fans to the exclusion of everything else. Employment required passing 'personality tests' which all included most prominently several versions of this question - do you like watching sports in crowds or do you like reading books? There was never the choice offered of maybe you might enjoy both - either all one or the other. And if you read books, you were an 'introvert' and unsuitable for employment.

Effectively, Americans were/are inculcated to give their power away by giving masculine status, power, only to an elect few - in the adult world of work, the corporate world gratefully receives the handoff of this conditioning.

It is the foundation of our society, the underlying cause of most of our problems.

[MineralMan]

65. Yes, that corporate concept, where competitiveness was the top priority.

There were many sports-connected words connected with the corporate world. Teamwork. Leadership. Competitiveness, Drive, etc.

Some still hold to that concept, but it has become largely obsolete. Now, it's collaboration, cooperation, and mentoring.

The funny thing was that those competitive and other words also applied to high school bands. Kids competed for placement in the section for their instrument. The first chair player and others led the rest of that section to practice and improve. Kids challenged other players to move up. Then there were competitions between bands, very formalized, and held all across the country. Bands practiced together daily, but throughout the school year. Outstanding players could compete to be on various honor bands, right up to the state honor band. Same thing in the school choir and other musical groups. In all cases, teamwork, close cooperation, and coordination was necessary in the band, too, or it sounded just terrible. There was really no difference between those activities and organized sports teams, except that you stood less chance of being injured in bands and choruses. The point is that all such group activities teach the very same things.

[bullwinkle428]

64. I grew up in the 1970s, and actually experienced "getting picked last for a team"

in PE class on one or two occasions! Completely talentless, athletically speaking, as a small, skinny, quiet kid who preferred learning about topics that interested me.

I guess the old saw about "revenge is a dish best served cold" carries weight, as these days, I get to engage in several sports where I get to perform at a respectable level in my later 50s, and absolutely, thoroughly enjoy them all.

[Hekate]

66. As someone on the opposite spectrum, I have no happy memories, none, of high school PE...

…which thank God only lasted from 7th through 10th grade.

You and I are of the same era. I really admire how you fought your way through as the individual you were and are.

But as I said in the original thread, “In other news, a black kid had his dreadlocks cut off in the middle of a wrestling match. And of course there’s Gym Jordan.” Something is seriously wrong with young men’s and boys’ school sports when a significant portion of the men who purport to lead them, instead abuse them.

[MineralMan]

67. I agree completely. Toxic masculinity is responsible

for many of the problems we face.