How long are we going to let these two play for the other team and block Biden and our agenda?

[usaf-vet]

I am tired of having to make comprises with the GQP KNOWING that history shows they will not vote for the "compromised" (aka blackmailed) bill no matter what.




The GQP via McTurtle has telegraphed the game plan to the nation. THEY WILL DO WHATEVER THEY CAN (legally or not) TO DISRUPT the Democratic agenda.

They are looking at 2022 and 2024 to tag the Democrats as an ineffective administration via 30-90 sec attack ads.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I can't help but think GQP paid them off.

[zuul]

20. Or McTurtle is blackmailing them.

I also wonder if Sinema was a GQP plant.

[lagomorph777]

43. We need to Start applying Kompromat: first against the Turtle, then against the moles.

[FoxNewsSucks]

51. I don't understand why that isn't already being done.

Republiqons would be using anything to get a Democrat out of the way, and we just stand around with our hands in our pockets.

Moscow Mitch is clearly dirty and his evil wife is corrupt as hell. TAKE THEM OUT!! What are democrats waiting for???

[LowerManhattanite]

28. THIS.

YEP.

[Hoyt]

2. Well, we can run them off and reinstate MAJORITY Leader McConnell.

[pnwmom]

55. I don't understand why people don't understand that. nt

[Sneederbunk]

3. As long as Coach Schumer wants.

[Magoo48]

52. Didn't the coach say, "Failure is not an option?"

[Blanks]

4. I suspect it's mostly theater...

The press wants to report on ‘dems in disarray’ they’re just setting it up. Manchin is holding out for a Republican vote so the infrastructure bill will be bipartisan, his fellow WV senator is in negotiations with the White House.

They’re setting it up to look like it might fail so when it passes it’ll look like they really accomplished something.

[Walleye]

5. Manchin It's going to be who he is. I don't understand Sinema at all, what is her angle?

[Kota]

6. Remove them from their committees.

[Demsrule86]

42. That would be extremely foolish. We need both of them for a majority.

[wryter2000]

7. What would you like to do to them?

Do you have some magic words that will change their behavior? If so, let Schumer know.

[usaf-vet]

12. BIDEN'S AGENDA. Elections have consequences.

Let me ask you how long are you willing to wait before we counter?

How much are you willing to give away of Bidens written plans before we counter?

How many of Biden's bills can be push thru via reconciliation?

What's your plan to counter the GQP's plan to retake the House and Senate in 2022 via lies and McTurtles games?

[panader0]

16. What are your proposals to get rid of them? How?

As an Arizonan, I am ashamed that I voted for Sinema and I let her know.
But what to do?

[usaf-vet]

17. See# 15 below.

[oldsoftie]

54. Well, who else COULD you have voted for?

I mean, so far this year she's voted with Biden 100% of the time a vote was taken. Manchin too
Thats a good bit better than you would get from a repub

[msfiddlestix]

32. ++++

excellent questions. I'd like to know what the answers are too

[msfiddlestix]

45. It's only fair, in my view.

[Demsrule86]

44. And what is your solution? Without them there is no Senate majority and we will get

nothing through. We still have one more reconciliation left...I love all the completely unreasonable expectations here...we don't have a large majority in either the house or the senate and I pray we manage to keep both in 22. Do you think putting McConnell back in charge would be helpful?

[wryter2000]

50. How do you know someone isn't asking them that?

I would imagine that’s exactly what leadership is saying to them.

[pnwmom]

56. And Manchin was voted in by the state with the 2nd highest support for Trump in the country.

If he hadn't won, as a former popular Governor, it would have been a Republican in that seat and we'd be much worse off, with McConnell as leader.

We are lucky any Democrat can win a Senate seat in that state.

[CrispyQ]

8. If HR1 isn't passed these two will be looking for new jobs soon.

Not sure they realize that.

[MineralMan]

11. Really? I thought they were elected officials somehow.

I think some people don't realize very well how this all works. There is nothing really to threaten them with. Persuasion will be the best way to alter their votes.

Attacking them is NOT going to work. We need to use some other strategy, and I don't think any of us here on DU has any idea of what that strategy might be.

[CrispyQ]

14. They are elected officials in a system that is being attacked by republicans.

If we let the repubs continue to muck up election laws around the country, Manchin & Sinema could find their own successful elections being challenged by rwnj or being decided by a small commission of republicans.

And it's not just DU. I don't think our party has a clue what to do with them.

[MineralMan]

18. Senators are elected in their own states.

I do not live in Arizona, although I was born there. I do not live in West Virginia, although I have driven through there.

The bottom line is that the people in those states will vote as they vote.

Both Sinema and Manchin were elected to the Senate. There is not a thing we can do about them right now.

We must look toward the future, and stop focusing on attacking people who are already elected and will not run again soon.

Instead, we must look at states where we might pick up Democratic Senators. We have to focus beyond the moment and look toward the future.

We might be able to convince those two Senators to vote on important issues with other Democrats. Really, they usually do vote with Democrats on most things. We will not convince them with threats we cannot carry out. All that will do is harden their decisions.

Look at 2022 and 2024, not 2021. We will get no new Senators until those years. Meanwhile, we are going to end up with imperfect solutions to some important issues. There is not a damned thing we can do about that until the next election, so making statements that cannot be enforced is a complete waste of time.

It is frustrating, of course, but it is the situation we are in, and we cannot change the makeup of the Senate at this time.

Thinking about the long term is the only way we will get what we want. We need to maintain our focus on that goal, not just complain about the current situation. That is how we can make change. If we fail to do that, we will lose ground, not gain it.

That is the system we have. We cannot change it without a 2/3 majority in both houses. That should be our primary goal, and it is going to take at least four years to accomplish. Unless we focus hard on that and look closely at every contested race in the House and Senate to find opportunities to pick up seats, we will be stuck with the current situation for a very long time.

Long-term strategy is the only way. While voters have the last word, who wins is largely determined by our dedication to winning elections. We can easily lose seats if we choose the wrong candidates to support. I hope we do not do that. We have a habit of it, though, in the Democratic Party. We need to change that habit.

[CrispyQ]

24. "The bottom line is that the people in those states will vote as they vote."

And republicans are working hard to kill democratic elections all over the country, so even if Manchin's & Sinema's constituents vote them in office, it may not matter. That was my point, but obviously I didn't make it.

[MineralMan]

33. In what state do you live?

Federal lawsuits can, and will be brought challenging gerrymandering in states that do that. Federal lawsuits can, and will be brought regarding unfair voting laws that violate federal laws. The solution is to support those lawsuits at this point. Complaining about what a state does has no effect whatever on the 2022 election. Lawsuits can have an effect. They have done so in the past, and can in the future.

But, I don't know what state you vote in, so I don't know if this stuff affects you as a voter. If it does, then get behind those lawsuits. Donate to whoever is bringing them to court. If not, choose a neighboring state and do the same. Some people here appear to just be waving their hands around and not looking for ways they can do something that might have a material affect.

Do something. Posting on DU about your frustration doesn't do anything. Personal action on a local or state basis does.

We can not affect what is. We can only affect what is to come. Doing that is what I recommend.

[moose65]

31. That's the only way forward

Somehow Democrats have to get that message out to their OWN voters and to left-leaning unaffiliated voters. If we don't get what we want, then we try again in 2022 to elect MORE Dems to the Senate - protect the Dems we already have, and hopefully pick up seats in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Wisconsin, maybe Ohio. That is the ONLY way forward. If we pout and don't vote, we will get the same result we got in 2014. UGH.

[PortTack]

35. agree...We have to play and win the long game. The time to start is now.

[usaf-vet]

25. Elected or gerrymandered? I don't know either of their political histories.

In my mind, there is a difference between elected or gerrymandered. I live in a state that pre gerrymandered was a strong purple leaning always blue at least in my congressional district.

NOW the district is gerrymander to a solid red. WITH NO INPUT from the elected Democrats.

In fact, the districts were laid out in a Republican attorney's office with Democrats BARRED from attending.

Our Democracy is being dismantled piece by piece and we have a retired military General calling for a Military coup a la Myanmar.

[moose65]

29. Elected

Senate seats can't be gerrymandered. Voters across the entire state vote for Senate. I am continually amazed that people don't know this!

There is no way to "get rid" of either of them until their terms are up in 2024.

[MineralMan]

34. Most of the people who are waving their arms around

have no real idea how our political system works. If they don't understand that Senators are elected statewide, how can they understand what to do that might affect something.

It's easy to cry out, "We're all doomed!" if you know nothing about how the system works. That you had to make that point is evidence of what I am saying. Thank you!

[MineralMan]

30. In reality, it doesn't matter at the moment.

They are in office, aren't they?

Gerrymandering is another state issue, that requires state action, unless the federal government steps in and imposes some rules on redistricting, as it has done in the past.

Again, right now, we have who we have in Congress and the Senate. We can do nothing about that at the moment, except fret about it.

So, in your state, check to see if there is a federal lawsuit regarding the redistricting in your state. The federal courts can, and have, overridden gerrymandering. If there is a suit, find out who is bringing that suit and offer your support, either financial or with your time.

I have no idea what state you live in, but you can do far more there than you can in West Virginia or Arizona. Of that I am certain.

Here's the thing: If we focus on what we CAN do, we CAN do many things. If we focus on things over which we have no control whatsoever in some state in which we do not live, we waste our time completely.

Activism only works when it is applied by people in the place where they live and vote. Do that. Focus on that. Don't tilt at windmills. Do something that has a chance of success. Act locally, in your county, and in your own state. Don't waste your time doing anything else.

And, by the way, DU has no influence on anything. It's just a place where 2-3000 people read and sometimes post.

[PortTack]

36. ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

[moose65]

63. Their terms run until the 2024 elections.

Is that "soon" to you?

[CrispyQ]

68. Wow. I really didn't make my point, did I?

My point is, that all dem seats are at risk if HR1 isn't passed, including Mandhin's & Sinema's.

[House of Roberts]

9. Until we have 50 votes + Kamala Harris without them.

Otherwise, until the rich fucks bribing them run out of money.

[moondust]

37. Hmmm...

I've been wondering if there could be some form of bribery at play with these two.

[MineralMan]

10. How do you suggest we do that?

Unless we can somehow convince them, they will vote as they wish. Calling them names is unlikely to change their votes, I think. Trashing them publicly will also probably not work.

It's easy to say we MUST do something, but that's useless without a plan of what it is we CAN do.

[usaf-vet]

15. The last time I look I was not a elected member of Congress nor do I have a direct line to.....

... POTUS, the VP, Schumer, or Pelosi.

So any plan I might have would not have an ear to hear it.

Just call it FRUSTRATION after four years of Trump's BS.

I want what millions of us want our country back our Democracy saved and insurrectionists in jail including treasonist Congress members.

Oh, and if anyone has contact numbers for POTUS, the VP, Schumer, or Pelosi please message them to me I would be glad to call them and discuss possible options with them.

[StarfishSaver]

19. You can't have it both ways

You can't, on the one hand, demand that the Democrats who have been elected to Congress do something they're not doing, but when asked what you think they should do, shrink back and claim you aren't an elected member of Congress so you can't be expected to know what to do.

[MineralMan]

22. Turn your frustration into determination to solve this

in a long-term way. Right now, there is nothing you can do as an individual. That only works during election years. You can communicate with all of those people you mentioned. Their contact information can be Googled. But, you need to convert your frustration into long-term action. Unless you do that, you will always be frustrated.

Use Google if you're looking for contact information. It's all out there.

We have a system that can only be changed when we have 2/3 majorities in both houses of Congress, along with a President of our own party. We have only one of those things. We have elections in 2022 and 2024. Those are our opportunities to make systemic changes. Right now, we have what we have.

[MichMan]

13. Back in the day, the FBI would be ordered to dig up dirt on either them or relatives for blackmail

Not suggesting this by the way

[dalton99a]

21. Disgusting.

https://democraticunderground.com/100215490893

[NewHendoLib]

26. I. Hate. DINOs. Period

[usaf-vet]

27. DITTO!

[Demsrule86]

48. That is where you and I disagree. With out moderate Democrats...given political realities we

can't hold a majority in either the House or the Senate.

[FoxNewsSucks]

57. IF they'd get out of the way,

and let voting protection laws get enacted, we would NEVER need them.

Democrats WIN when people can freely vote for them, and their districts aren't gerrymandered to hell. Republiqons know that the only way they can win is to lie cheat and steal.

Republiqons have been ceaselessly working to make sure people can't freely vote against them. Meanwhile, we get told "gee whiz, we better GOTV!! We better elect more Democrats next time!" . Well no shit! But that constant bleating is like a child's squirtgun up against the raging flamethrower republiqons are using to extinguish our ability to vote the way we want and have it mean something.

Here's a political reality: Bit by bit, piece by piece, law by law, for over 50 years THEY have worked to put in place effective ways to grab and KEEP control. It's now damn near done. There will be no GOTV. We won't be able to elect more Dems. If they let us continue to have the illusion of elections, they will always "win".

The time is now. Right now.

[NewHendoLib]

61. but they are not moderate Dems. They are DINO!!!

[JHB]

64. You might need to pick different terms. Enabling extremist, obstructionist...

...our-way-or-the-highway, party-over-country Republicans is not "moderate."

[NewHendoLib]

65. THIS

[Johnny2X2X]

38. They are Dems

Would you rather they caucus with the Reps and Mitch be back in as Majority Leader?

[MineralMan]

41. Oh, Gosh! I Didn't Think about That!

That's what it sounds like sometimes.

[treestar]

49. As long as the states that elected them

re-elect them. Or replace them with worse Senators.

[TomDaisy]

53. god I hate them.

[liberalgunwilltravel]

58. MineralMan is being rational

MineralMan,
I agree with your sentiment and you are of course correct in pointing out the most rational way to move forward. However, I also see the danger in allowing it to play out the way you propose. Because the GOP is actively undermining our democracy to the point of being able to overturn legitimate elections may very well preclude taking the path you recommend. Sure, there is ample basis for lawsuits and they will be pursued, but there is no guarantee they will filter through the courts in time to stop the GOP from literally, not figuratively stealing election in 2022 and 2024. Further, because of gerrymandering, nationally the GOP could lose by 20 million votes or more and still have a House Majority. Then once seated, they could block the certification of any elected Democratic president in 2024. So there is urgency here due to the existential threat the GOP poses. I ultimately agree, we need to obtain and maintain a majority in both Houses, but to do that free and fair elections must first be guaranteed.

One more point, Mitch McConnell and the GOP have spent the well over 20 years packing the federal court with right wing lunatics, so the courts may not offer the reprieve we need, even though they did hold up in the last election. I wish I had a solution.

[PortTack]

62. The house alone cannot block certification of EC votes

There has to be a simple majority in the house and senate, that will never happen.

https://verdict.justia.com/2020/09/30/no-republicans-cannot-throw-the-presidential-election-into-the-house-so-that-trump-wins

[GoodRaisin]

66. K&R for the comic.

Great analogy. No idea what to do about it though. These assholes seemingly have us between a rock and a hard spot. I guess just going to have to wait and see if the dems can pull a rabbit out of a hat. It's frustrating, that's for sure.

[Raine]

67. "WE"??? There is nothing YOU or ANYONE here can do about it. 🤔 nt