Maher calls college a 'grift,' compares it to Scientology

[Klaralven]

HBO’s Bill Maher went after colleges during his show “Real Times with Bill Maher,” comparing them to Scientology and calling higher education a “grift.”

“But in a grift that is our higher education, when you want to move up … you need to pay for more ‘education’ before we decide you can do what you do,” Maher said in his six-minute rant.

“F---, this is what Scientology does. Makes you keep taking courses to move up to the bridge of total freedom,” he added.

The liberal comedian’s monologue was spurred by President Biden’s American Families Plan and the idea of free college for everyone that has been pushed by several Democratic lawmakers.

Maher decried the “hundreds of billions” of dollars in the plan to make sure “everyone can go to college.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/557000-maher-calls-college-a-grift-compares-it-to-scientology

[Ocelot II]

1. Maher isn't a liberal; he's basically a libertarian

and also basically an asshole.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Who Donated Millions To Obama & The DNC?

At least $3 million.
And, libertarians do that?

[ChrisF1961]

26. Is that like buying a papal indulgence in the Middle Ages?

If you donate to democrats you are automatically above any criticism?

[betsuni]

28. On donating: "In 2012, I did this but this is different. That was for my country and I thought it

was very important that the first black president got a second term, and all the money in the country was going to the Republicans. This time, it's a little more personal. I'm worried about this country and really what's going to happen to it on a very existential level, including my own ass. And I got a lot of messages from people saying 'good for you,' and I just want to say for the ones who are rich who said that: Not enough. Not enough to say that to me."

[ChrisF1961]

49. So?

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Interesting analogy given he also used that one in his monologue.

He said the same about college degrees.

[Hortensis]

87. Liberal because he says so, regardless of behavior? Come on.

He claims to support many liberal ideals, and espouses them with sellable nobility. He also frequently and repeatedly betrays them. He also shares many ugly and IL-liberal notions with conservatives and other IL-liberal types, then turns on them. Temporarily espousing only the highest ideals, of course.

Maher's peculiar mix is contemptible but profitable. One of his tricks is ostentatiously writing checks in public display to "buy" a liberal credential after he's spent the year profiting from spreading his special toxic mix.

I don't know what this scorpion's label should be, but I'm very offended when I hear someone like him called a liberal. It's an insult to all liberals.

[betsuni]

90. What behavior specifically are you talking about?

What ideas does he share with conservatives? He publicly called on other wealthy liberals to donate to Democrats to help them get elected. Why is that a "trick"? He has never called Democrats corrupt neoliberals who hate progressives and rig elections, which is more than can be said about plenty of people claiming to be progressives, like Michael Moore and Justice Democrats. Maher is a liberal and a comedian who hosts a live talk show. He has to talk to people, even when they're Republicans.

[betsuni]

46. He isn't a libertarian. Here he discusses this with Penn Jillette, a real Libertarian:

"I guess in 1994 or something I said something about libertarianism and ever since they've been saying 'Bill, you're not a real libertarian' and I'm like, you're right I'm not a real libertarian. I believe in smoking pot and that's about it." Maher believes in government, why he donated three million to elect Democrats and argues that the "lesser of two evils" bullshit from 2016 was stupid.

[Ocelot II]

48. Then maybe he's just an asshole who says stupid stuff.

[GoCubsGo]

2. So, did he give Cornell back his degree?

No, no he did not. All that pot he smokes is turning his brain to mush.

[Mysterian]

15. Pot doesn't turn a person's brain to mush

Welcome to the 21st century.

[GoCubsGo]

30. If you do enough of it, it does.

And, from most accounts, he smokes a shitpile of it.

[Solomon]

89. No. It doesn't.

[qazplm135]

3. ask him if he wants his lawyers to go to law school

then ask him where his lawyers went to law school.

Same for his doc.

Or his accountant.

[Shermann]

7. He says college is unnecessary for MOST job

You cherry-picked two where most would agree it is necessary (I'm throwing out "accountant" however).

The vast majority of degrees that are awarded are not in medicine or law. So he has a point.

And the Lori Loughlin dig was epic!

[TheBlackAdder]

10. College gives a foundation, but most learning, in medical, legal, finance, plumbing, etc. is OTJ

.

College introduces people to diverse thought, so people don't grow up in cloistered hamlets.

Theories, critical thinking, and abstract concepts is what opens and develops the mind and you don't get that working with simpler people and drinking with simpler people and living with simpler people. People need their conventional thoughts challenged. At home, they can just ignore the challenge or turn it off, but they can not escape it in a university setting.

.

[empedocles]

19. A broader education gives those students a better chance to understand our

fast moving/evolving world - and a better chance to survive.

[smirkymonkey]

34. +1000

[StarfishSaver]

50. Excellent explanation

[qazplm135]

56. agreed

it preps the mind for that OTJ training.

[qazplm135]

22. accounting is a degree

so not sure why you are throwing it out, and I'm pretty sure his accountants have a great education.


Chemist. Nurse. Teacher. Pharmacist. There's a ton of jobs that absolutely require extended study.
so no, he does not "have a point."

It's one thing to ask, do we have too many degrees, or should we invest more in apprentice based jobs, etc. But to call college a scam is ridiculous.

[Shermann]

47. Clearly Maher's message has resonated with some here

Some people had a wonderful experience in college, bettered themselves, made a smooth transition to the workforce, and paid off their debt without it being too onerous.

Others, not so much. There just seem to be so many examples where people have fallen victim to this system. Personally my experience was more the latter. I had a decade of grinding poverty post college just to have that piece of paper. That piece of paper said I was qualified to do the job I was already doing professionally before ever going to school.

So if you are one of the lucky ones, good for you. His point stands.

[TheBlackAdder]

53. Most employers treat a 4-year degree like a H.S. diploma. Without it you'll never get an interview.

.

The actual job of an HR department is to make sure you meet base requirements, are a fit for the position, and most importantly won't cause any issues in the workplace. Most of your training comes OTJ, unless you possess medium or senior level skills. Entry-level applications will be denied an interview. I am a senior-level systems technician specializing in transaction processing, message delivery systems and databases, on several platforms, such as Solaris, Linux and z/OS, and yes, even Windows servers.

Even at my level, I would no longer get an interview at another company without a diploma.

So, while a degree is viewed as trivial, the further development of the mind that occurs after basic high school growth develops life-long critical thinking and conceptual skills that primary education can not deliver. The problem with Maher is he seems to be one of those guys who remembers what he wants to remember and forgets the nuances that shaped his life in a more tacit way.

I'll give a classic example: My brother-in-law is a senior software project leader at a major national healthcare company. The firm he was at prior was absorbed into this corporation. Prior to the sale, the equity firm that bought it maximized their profits by firing 50% of the senior product developers. Eight direct reports to my BIL were fired. I've met these people multiple times. Only one person could not get rehired anywhere--the guy without the degree--and he was their best talent. My BIL tried several times to hire him and HR flatly denied the request because he did not have a college degree. Seven years later, the guy is now just doing odd jobs. Went from $150K a year to under $45K.

Also, once you lose your job, and you can't get rehired, your skills quickly degrade. But what's worse is that HR starts to look at long-term unemployed as a liability. Why couldn't this guy get rehired? What was the real reason for termination? Is this person stable to work here? What do other companies see that we might be missing? And a whole shitload of other questions. Once you are out of work for six months, the odds of finding a job starts to drop off quickly. By the second year, you're almost unemployable in the same position or field.

.

[Shermann]

71. So this is your defense of the system?

The guy without the degree who is the most talented can't get rehired. So, your conclusion is that...I guess...he should have participated in the system better? Instead of fixing the system? That pretzel logic is a bit too salty for me.

[TheBlackAdder]

76. OK fix it. Oh, that's right, it can't be fixed. If you can't, this talk is just academic 🤣

.

That guy knew the market forces and allowed himself to be put in that position of vulnerability.

I had 3 years of aeronautics education before running out of money in the 80s. Got entry DP work. Worked my way up, started taking CompSci courses and got married. Fast-forward, 20 years and I an 20 into my current job without a degree but 7 years of college. You lose a lot when transferring, especially from out-of-state to in-state. I ended up returning to college and went for a degree I chose, not because of career influences. I got my BA at 56. I am older, and even with my years of training and skill, if I needed to find a job, I would be unmarketable. When I got my present job 25 years ago, my manager warned me then to get my college degree because back then the environment was changing. Now, no one in my company can get hired without one.


And that is the way with most companies. Does it weed out some good candidates, yes.

But serious candidates know these are the parameters of current employment requirements and that will never go away.

.

[Shermann]

77. Exactly!

Since you understand computer science, you should recognize this as a proof of work system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_work

The diploma proves that you put in four years of solving arbitrary client puzzles at school, and proves that you met the cost function to go there.

Is that really the system we want given the financial costs involved?

I don't claim to have a fix, I'm just here to support Maher in his assertion that we do in fact have a problem.

[TheBlackAdder]

88. This discussion should probably move to HR people as there are best practices and metrics they use.

.

There is an entire Human Resources industry that evaluates and comes to these decisions.

I was speaking to one HR manager of a moderate firm, and they said that the primary job of an HR team is to weed out false applications, choose from the best pool available and then make sure they aren't the type that will come into the office one day and kill everyone. Yes, it's come to that. Contact your auto insurance and life insurance providers. Most of them discount based on education levels, though it's merged in some nebulous term. I forget the actual name that is used, but most do this. Your auto policy might mention it in the renewal packet you get. Even these industries see some worth in a college degree.

When managers submit requirements to HR for a position, they are rarely notified of the purged applications. Intake of a prospect is time and resource expensive, so they choose wisely.


Now, I question the purpose of school as the way put forth. Those puzzles actually rework your brain wiring and develop cognitive skills that a primary education can not perform. I have that shit developed already. I went back for an English Major and PoliSci Honors minor. While that sounds lame, it's one of the best educational foundations as it introduces students to a multitude of divergent world thought. I had to pay full boat for my degree, which required 3 years of study, as it was a vast change from my prior studies. Work would only pay if it was work-related, so I foot the bill myself, taking two classes a semester, a Winter and Summer sessions.

My kids do school on the cheap. Community college and transfer to a top 60 school for some. My one daughter was HS class president Junior year with a class size of 950. When she graduated, kids laughed at her because all her friends went to Ivy schools and she went to a Top 45 school, but she asked for late admission after clarifying that they take a year and a half of transfer credits even after being matriculated. On her HS graduation book, listed her name and our county college. Well, she took Winter & Summer county courses and transferred them in, but she made sure she had written authorization that they'd be accepted. She graduated that school after 2.5 years of being there with a double major. Before being admitted, she took it upon herself to pit a state school and a private in-state school against one another and was offered an $18K scholarship offer from the private school. She took that offer to her desired school and they matched it. So the $63K tuition, room & board was knocked down over $25K right off the bat with other grants she received. Her cost there was around $38K a year, but she only did 2.5 years there. Her degree shows that college, not the community college she went to.

She would tell me that friends of hers and other classmates contact her and are kicking themselves, because they went all in to the top schools and were in debt up to their eyeballs after the second year. We paid a little, she had savings, and in the end it resulted in about $30K in student loans.

Then, she went to a Top 3 university in the UK, globally ranked in the Top 10. It was $35K for her Masters, including a private studio apartment. Brexit hit and she received a refund check to the tune of over $8K, so her Masters degree cost under $28K.

The community colleges in NJ have transfer agreements with various state schools. I have 2 in community now and one in a SEBS science program at Rutgers U. and she's planning on getting her Masters. She's already working for an environmental firm and is trained on specialized science research software tools from Rut.

People get out of college what they want. Some can drift and get by, others take it serious. I guess as I am older, I was on the more serious side, as I was paying for it and had a goal. Community & state schools are effective. After seeing a lot of the Ivy grads over the years, their educations are not that swift--highly overrated. I had a contact at a large software firm tell me that a Rutgers degree is look upon better than one from one of the Mass Ivy schools, and those candidates don't perform well and are under-educated for the positions they are applying to get.

.

[qazplm135]

55. sure, there's an element

of our society that loves the idea that book learning is bad and that college isn't worth it.

It doesn't matter if I am "one of the lucky ones" because we have objective facts:
https://www.northeastern.edu/bachelors-completion/news/average-salary-by-education-level/

Avg salaries for level of education (rounded):

HS 39K
Associates 46K
Bachelor's 65K
Master's 78K
Doc/Prof 97/98K

There's a VERY clear difference in your average salary and thus lifetime earnings at each education point. Sure, for those with talent, a vocational degree can be a viable alternative but it depends on the career...the averages for carpenter, plumber, home inspector, or electrician don't beat a Bachelor's degree, but a dental hygienist, some mechanics, and other very complicated fields can earn much more.

So guess what, we don't have to rely just on my experience, or your experience, we can simply look at the overall data.

[Shermann]

69. There are two fallacies to unpack here

Fallacy #1 is a false dichotomy that you either love book-learning AND college, or you don't.

What if I love just the book-learning, but not the college? Most of my college experience revolved around textbooks anyway, why couldn't I have continued to seek out those materials on my own?

Fallacy #2 is essentially a circular argument. You are saying that because it is demonstrable that salaries increase with higher education, higher education is therefore good. We know that more intelligent and ambitious people gravitate to higher education. Maher's point is that it is largely out of necessity, not desire. Employers naturally will draw from this group when hiring. What we don't know is what would happen in a large blind study where employers couldn't ask about your degree. Does education really improve earning potential, or does it just act like a filter to make HR's life easier? We don't know, so the whole thing is circular.

[qazplm135]

82. Yeah we do know

College exposes people to others different from them. It gives baseline knowledge and yes it forces folks who don't like book learning to do it because it's required for a good job.

The idea that people would just "learn on their own" and teach themselves as well as formal education is laughable. Some wouldn't do the former and many couldn't do the latter.

Your poor experience isn't data.

[Shermann]

83. Actually it is data

It's data with a sample size of one. See, and I didn't even take statistics!

Of course, we know the sample size is larger than one. The subject comes up again and again and again. Finances are wrecked, people are put into hopeless debt, financial inequalities are exacerbated, familial relationships are strained, and lives are derailed or put on hold. And yet there's this group that maintains that there's nothing to see here.

[qazplm135]

84. People complaining

About something isn't a data point or else we'd have to acknowledge that people bringing up the "ills" of vaccination over and over again means that there isn't "nothing to see here."

You're complaints can be addressed by making college more affordable or even free.

And if folks don't want to "put their lives on hold" they can learn a trade, or take an accelerated bachelor degree program you can do in 18 months. Or get an associate's degree in two years. Whatever they do will require time and learning. But there are paths to shorten if one puts in the time and effort. You can CLEP test your way out of the first year of college.

We tried the everyone's an apprentice route in the 1700s, we decided to go to the university model well before "HR" existed for a reason.

Complaints aren't data without objective facts to support.

[Shermann]

85. FACT: Since 1985, the average cost of college has risen 500%

That was in the video (curiously absent from this thread) at 5:10.

Four times the rate of inflation. So subsidies add to the demand side of the supply versus demand equation. I don't see how you can fix that particular systemic problem that way.

It's like saying we can solve the ransomware problem by having the government pay all the ransoms for us.

[qazplm135]

86. which is probably why

I said, we can make college more affordable or even, wait for it, free.

There, I fixed your systemic problem.

And no, making college free is not going to somehow lower demand for a college degree from employers who are still going to want educated employees.

You don't see employers prioritizing those who paid their way over those who got full ride scholarships.

[JI7]

4. Bad comparison. But there is a problem with more focus on status

than education itself and this drives up costs.

There needs to be more and equal focus on trade schools. students should be informed about the money people actually make also. They can still go to regular 4 year college in the future also.

And those not sure what they want to do might be better off just taking a few community college or other classes and do something else like a job or hobby.

I talked to some plumbers that were fixing an issue at my work and they regularly go on vacations and are able to spend on extra things.

Not surprising since it took a while for me to find someone. Many were already booked so there is a lot of work out there.

[TheBlackAdder]

5. Besides nepotism, isn't that how the corporate ladder works too? You have to pay your 'dues.'

[marble falls]

6. It's not scientology. It's another layer of growth before one takes on adult jobs ...

... I've read 60% of bachelor degrees take jobs out of their field. Having a degree might be an indication of an ability to commit to a program for four years or so, something that means something to corporations with strategic plans. Otherwise, how would economic majors and people like me get good jobs? I think four years in the military should earn some sort of recognition of education and commitment in a degree.

Maher may be kinda right, but not for the reason he thinks he is.

[TheBlackAdder]

8. Trump is more like Scientology & Mormonism. He self-anointed and only one who can read gold scrolls.

.

Self-anointed like L. Ron.

The only one who can read the gold scrolls that he invents and finds.

.

[Yavin4]

9. I agree with Bill on this. College and Universities should be for those that want to be academics.

Researchers. Professors. Teachers. Everything else should be taught in vocational schools with an apprenticeship. High school should be extended for two years. Give kids time to figure out what they really want to do with their lives. Then, they can attend a vocational school and earn their way into an apprenticeship.

For example, if you want to be a lawyer, you would have to decide whether you want to be a legal scholar/researcher or you want to practice law. If it's the former, you go to college and then onto graduate law school. If it's the latter, you would go to a vocational law school for 4 years after high school, then be a lawyer's apprentice, and then take the state bar exam.

College is over used in our country. It's become a status symbol. An expensive relic from the baby boomer generation.

[betsuni]

12. I totally agree.

[Grokenstein]

13. Went to Boston U for two years before deciding I'd be better off on the G.I.Bill.

It was ridiculous--more about building Mafia-style "connections" in one's ethnic/religious clique than learning anything. The dorms were practically slums while the library's primary purpose was faculty banquets. I went to college because I felt compelled to, and to escape the dead end of '80s mid-central Flaw'duh. Lord knows the USAF wasn't much better, but at least I completed my piddling AA without losing my mind.

[Raine]

21. Totally agree. nt

[qazplm135]

23. so you want high school for two more years

and then another what, two years in vocational schools...which is, ya know, four years after 18.

We have a perfect place for those folks...colleges.

We have community colleges and all sorts of cheap options for someone who wants a four year degree. Now, if you want a high quality degree, you will have to pay more, and yeah, prices are too high, and we need to do something about it, but that doesnt translate to what you and Mahrer are arguing at all.

[Yavin4]

31. Currently, undergraduate programs prepare you for....graduate programs, not careers.

It's a common misconception. People think that going to college prepares you for a career in the field that you studied, and that's incorrect. Most undergrad programs prepare you for graduate work in that field of study. It's why so many people have a really hard time transitioning from college to a career. One of the reasons why the elite schools are such a draw is that they have alumni networks and are favored by some large employers for recruiting.

We need a better, cheaper, and much more effective system for educating and preparing people for careers of their choice, and vocational programs are the best method. And when I say "vocational", I am talking about everything from plumbing to marketing to computer programming to the law.

If you want to be an academic or do research or teach, then you should go to college and onto graduate school.

[qazplm135]

37. that's not remotely true

a teaching degree gets you almost all the way there except certification. Pharmacy. Business. Management. All sorts of folks go on to have careers starting off with undergrad degrees. Yes some go on to have master's degrees, many do not.

https://educationdata.org/education-attainment-statistics

Lot of data there to suggests there's plenty of value in educational achievement. And certainly, if you want to break boundaries, it's pretty important. I come from a poor family. I don't think we ever broke 40K a year in our best year. Maybe when I was a little kid, relatively speaking to today's dollars.

I was the first to graduate college, and the first to go to anything past that (law school). I only barely dropped below six figures the last year because I just retired from the military. I'll go back over once I do really anything.

Higher education has a real impact.

[Yavin4]

42. We've created a system where we force people to get undergrad degrees for those careers.

And, as Bill Maher points out, that system is laying a huge amount of debt on future generations. There are other, more effective, more cost efficient ways of preparing people to be pharmacists and business managers.

BTW, I have an MBA, and it did jack squat for me. The worst educational investment that I have ever spent. College is THE WORST place to learn about business.

[qazplm135]

57. no

those jobs require the baseline education that college provides. It's why the entire WORLD does VERY similar post high school education all things considered.

YOU are one person and your experience is one experience.

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/heres-exactly-how-much-an-mba-increases-your-salary-by-industry

The average increase between nonMBA and MBA depends on the career field, but every career field they looked at saw some increase on average...and many saw 40-60+ percent increases.

[Yavin4]

60. Most of the industrialized and developing world emphasize vocational based training

Similar to the approach that I laid out.

In a lot of instances, averages obscure data more so than they reveal. A few high paying jobs at the very top obscure results for everyone else.

The MBA is not worth going into debt over, and it's a pretty useless degree.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

24. Your statement about "vocational law school" makes no sense.

Back in the old days, a person could "read the law" or "read for the bar exam" under the supervision of a lawyer, and then take the state bar exam. That was in the early part of the 20th century. Now the complexity of the law and the necessity of taking standardized courses for a standardized bar exam is recognized.

A law degree is 90 semester hours. It always has been.

I literally grew up in a law office. My dad was a lawyer and mom typed for him, so they had a Mom-and-Pop shop. I was a legal secretary and a court reporter. I spent years typing up wills, divorces, deeds, and assorted court pleadings for Dad in general civil practice.

When I didn't understand the language when I was a kid, years before I started typing, I would ask Mom what it meant and she would tell me. I asked, "What does 'Know all men by these presents' mean? What does 'Wherefore premises considered' mean? What does 'Defendant prays that Plaintiff go hence, without day' mean?" (No, it's not "delay", it's "day&quot

I thought college was not all that difficult, except for my science courses.

When I got to law school, I was in shock at how difficult it was. The orientation lecture was basically "You're in the Army now. Ya gotta be tough." and scaring hell out of people.

I was a good student and disciplined. I never skipped class or skipped assignments, in college, vocational school or in graduate school. A lot of professions are so academic that the idea of a vocational school for them is ridiculous. The competition just to get a C in class was insane. That Juris Doctor was a very tough degree.

My father went to night school on the G.I. Bill after World War II to earn that law degree. Back then you had to have 60 hours of college, and the degree was called an LL.B., Bachelor of Laws. They changed it so you have to have a Bachelor's degree first, and they changed the degree to a Juris Doctor. They have not changed the requirement of 90 semester hours.

Dad told me that I knew more law when I went INTO law school than he knew when he graduated.

I got my court reporting degree at a two year community college, and that was the degree that enabled me to have a good job and make good money. The people I had to deal with and the stress drove me crazy, but that is a different issue.

So I have done both, the academic route and the vocational school route.

College is useful to open your mind by demanding you learn about different concepts and get some historical perspective. I don't think there's a way you could get your mind opened that much without that discipline of going to class and studying and listening, unless you were an extraordinarily disciplined scholar on your own. It also can get you in the habit of reading widely on various subjects.

I used to watch Bill Maher in the 90s, but now I'm disgusted by a lot of what he says.

[Yavin4]

32. Did you miss the part where I wrote that you would apprentice after 4 years of vocational law school

The 4 years that you would spend in law school would in essence cover the current three years of law school plus an additional year. Also, recall that I want HS school extended to two years. In those extra years, students can take rigorous classes akin to the first two years of an undergrad program today.

So, under my plan, a student would get their Liberal Arts education for free in High School. Then, they would apply for a vocational law school, and if accepted would spend 4 years studying the law. After that they would enter an apprenticeship program. The apprenticeship program could be working for a judge, or a state legislator, or U.S. senator, or a governor of a state, or a non-profit, etc.

After a year or so, the student would be able to sit for the state bar exam with little to no extraordinary debt compared to the path today.

[qazplm135]

39. only the biggest law firms can afford to take on

an apprentice that does very little for four years. Your average small firm can't afford to pay someone to do that and do nothing.

I paid off my law school loans in less than five years because I went to a good, but cheap school. Tier one in fact (barely). They exist, it's not impossible. But sure, I have no problem with adjusting the extraordinary debt problem. You can do that without throwing out the baby.

I might even agree that the third year of law school isn't really necessary. I was bored for most of it. But I learned a lot in the first two. How to read and think like a lawyer for sure.

[Yavin4]

44. Did you read where I wrote this?

The apprenticeship program could be working for a judge, or a state legislator, or U.S. senator, or a governor of a state, or a non-profit, etc.

Your apprenticeship does not have to be with a big law firm.

If your law school/law career experience worked out for you, then good. As someone that spent their entire life working in support staffs of law firms, I can tell you that it does not work out quite as well for the legions of law school grads who do the most mundane tasks. And most of it can be done with computers, but they have to create work for the sake of creating work.

[qazplm135]

51. how is any of that

going to work for four years? We already have those, and they don't last for four years, nor could they.

It works out well enough that the average salary for an attorney with ten years experience is well over 100K and even the bottom 25 percent make over 80K on average.

So no, in spite of your quite frankly less than knowledgeable argument, lawyers are doing ok. And MOST attorneys don't work in firms, that's the point. Most don't spend a minute in a court room. They do a WIDE variety of jobs. And there's no room for a vast four year apprenticeship program replacing law school.

You haven't come up with some amazing idea no one's considered before.

[Yavin4]

63. Dude, if you believe that people with law degrees are doing well...

then you are lost. The legal field is the most bloated career field in America. Have you heard of doc review? Well, I was the person who built and maintained the databases for that review, and I saw first hand whole rooms full of freshly minted law grads sitting in front of computers doing the most mundane tasks. It was a dystopian nightmare.

--On Edit--
Law school applications are declining:

https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2020/06/law-school-applicants-are-down-32-with-biggest-declines-among-midwest-120-164-lsats-and-african-amer.html

[qazplm135]

65. The average salary

For the BOTTOM 25 percent of attorneys is over 80k a year.

So yeah, overall they are doing just fine.

Just like any other career field, not everyone has success, but when your worst average result is upper middle class then yeah, that's a pretty decent result.

The fact that there might be a current glut of attorneys doesn't change that it just means there's not an infinite number of jobs unsurprisingly.

[Yavin4]

68. Again, you're using averages. If I average my net worth with Jeff Bezos', I'd be one of the richest

people in the world.

The fact that there might be a current glut of attorneys doesn't change that it just means there's not an infinite number of jobs unsurprisingly.

At this point, I will need to end this debate because you're not making any sense.

[qazplm135]

81. I'm averaging

The BOTTOM 25 percent.

I'm averaging the WORST results.

[JI7]

27. High school should NOT be extended . But they do need to focus more on different types

of schools . Treat them equally. Stop making it all about the 4 year degree.

[betsuni]

29. By the way, speaking of high school being extended two years, I heard Jonathan Haidt

talk about how people born in 1995 and after are different because of early social media exposure and other things. That an 18 year old today is the equivalent of a 15 year old 30 years ago. They aren't ready for college at 18.

[jcgoldie]

43. We already have a bunch of idiots who have no knowledge of history or concept of civic duty

And you think it would be productive if less people went to college?

[Yavin4]

45. There are people that went to college with no knowledge of history or concept of civic duty

A lot of Trump's supporters went to college. Josh Hawley went to Oxford.

[JI7]

54. That has nothing to do with whether someone went to College .

[jcgoldie]

58. well its pretty much the core concept of liberal arts education

Educating citizens is more than job training.

[JI7]

59. Yes, and that can still happen . But like I said the problem with it today is not about people

whether people went to college .

[betsuni]

11. I agree. Now it's not about the education, it's about the name of the school on the diploma.

When schools have water parks and other non-academic perks it does become a "luxury day care center."

I don't think I'd even recognize the college I went to. Sitting in classrooms listening to lectures for $58,000 a year? No way. I'd never been able to afford to attend now. When I was a student I worked in the cafeteria and everyone ate cafeteria food, now they have a chef to stir-fry your personal selection of organic vegetables to your order. Also, they have a system where the whole first freshman semester are pre-101 remedial classes.

Better to actually watch the segment to see what he's talking about instead of just reading the article.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Well said.

Some really need to watch the segment or actually read the entire article before commenting, but that ain't gonna happen. I will say there was a few things he missed the mark and I can't think of it right off the top of my head (I commented on it while watching with my husband). When I was considering going back for a doctorate, I was shocked by some of the classes that were required for a psychology and sociology degrees, including "creative writing" and other bullshit undergraduate courses.

Other industries are routinely criticized here and people talk about the need for reform, well, higher education has become an industry and too needs some reform!

[JI7]

62. And I wonder how much these type of things add to the costs. Similar to how new editions of text

books are always being released every year even though the ones already being used are just as good .

Reform is needed.

[betsuni]

64. To this day I still don't know what "creative writing" is.

Or what an MBA actually teaches anyone they couldn't learn with a little business experience.

[Raine]

67. EXACTLY 👍 nt

[Klaralven]

79. $58,000 a year / (2 semesters * 16 weeks/semester * 20 hours instruction / wk) equals $90.62 / hour

Each of the students is paying 6 times the $15/hr wage for instructional hours.

Actually, for a second tier in-state public college at $10,000 / year for tuition and fees, it is $15.62 / hour. Plus commuting and living expenses, which might not be too bad if you are living at home and nearby.

[Meowmee]

14. An idiot

Who grifts off of other idiots who want to listen to his idiotic ideas.

[Sympthsical]

16. Heartily agree

I have a master's. I really did not need at least half of the courses I took throughout my academic career. Furthermore, most of my general education has been through personal reading over the years. I pick topics that interest me and pursue them because I have a passion for them. Friends or people online recommend books or lectures or podcasts, and I work through those, too.

People should only do the full college experience if they have a passion for it. If not, we need to stop requiring it of them, just so they can get a decent job.

The cost of college is just mind-numbingly obnoxious. The administrations keep growing and growing and growing. The middle class are milked for all they're worth with fees, tuition, materials, and loans.

We've created an indentured class of Millennials (and soon, Zoomers), simply because we were told that if we didn't get these degrees, we wouldn't have the same quality of life our parents enjoyed.

It is a scam, plain and simple. It needs to be brought under control. How? I have no idea. I have nieces and nephews in the University of California system. $14k a year. That's in-state resident. "What about financial aid?" Sure, there are some Pell grants in there (not too much), and loans. And then more loans.

Imagine someone telling you you had to buy a new car every year for four years. You'd be pretty pissed. And that's the public system.

And for what? To be forced to take courses you will never use or even ever think about again?

The system is broken and needs serious reform.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. They Waited Until The End...

...to print his actual point.
A point which is NOT consistent with a libertarian's POV.

[Paladin]

20. Why the hell does anybody pay attention to this asshole anymore?

You don't need a college degree to see Maher is a shit-for-brains.

[Peregrine Took]

25. What a zero of a person. 'Wouldn't waste one second on what he thinks.

LOL 0f course I just did (!) but that's the last time ever.

[PlanetBev]

33. I went to college for four years.

1968 to 1972. Not because I wanted to, but because my parents expected it of me. I was not a good student and I hated school.

I learned nothing that prepared me for life. It would have been much better if I had learned a trade. I would have suffered less financially. College is not all its hyped up to be.

[Silent3]

38. I didn't go through college until about 10 years after high school

It meant a whole lot more to me when I was older, and I wanted it myself, than when I was younger and it was a matter of fulfilling someone else's expectations.

My parents (my father especially) never realized how much they hurt my ability to view college as a positive thing instead of a dreaded burden, simply by pushing it on me so hard.

[Silent3]

35. I'd say it's half true

There are definitely professions (like, say, being a doctor!) where I'd want to be sure someone working in those professions got a good, solid post-high-school education.

There are a lot more professions where I suppose it's possible you could get by via on-the-job-training, some sort of apprenticeship system, more technical/less academic focused training, etc., but where it still wouldn't hurt for us to have more of the people in these jobs, and out there in the world, getting the broader outlook on life that a good college education can bring.

On the other hand a lot of colleges are just diploma factories. A lot of people squeak through college and still come out narrow-minded and ignorant. Many of these people aren't going to get more out of college no matter what we do or they do. They would be better off not having society pressuring them to go through college at either their own expense or tax-payer expense.

And then some people just aren't college material, either intellectually or by personal inclination and ambition. We need to provide them with other kinds of opportunities.

[Shermann]

72. I'd agree some people aren't "compatible" with college

Saying they aren't "college material" comes across as a pejorative. There are other considerations besides intellect and ambition that might contribute to that incompatibility. Some people have a natural curiosity about specific things and can't deal with being force-fed an itinerary. Some people learn better at their own pace instead of on a rigid structure. Some people are better at rote memorization from a textbook than others, which is a skill completely orthogonal to intellect.

[betsuni]

74. The memory thing!

That rote memorization from a textbook means intelligence. Ridiculous. It just means you have a good memory.

[jcgoldie]

40. Fuck Bill Maher

Thanks for the $million to Obama but you are now a pompous fool. I would rather he stopped identifying as a liberal because he is not one and his stupid hot takes from bitching perpetually about wokeness to criticizing higher education… really college wtf maga shit is that?… they are ignorant at best and some sort of trojan horse shit at worst…

[Hekate]

52. Liberal comedian? Maher is neither liberal nor funny --

He’s just another braying jackass.

[RegularJam]

61. He says some really stupid things. nt

[tenderfoot]

66. I'm glad I went to college and that it was affordable at the time.

Not anymore it isn't.

[Vinca]

70. Higher education has morphed from educating to profiteering and people have been brainwashed

to think they'll never succeed in life unless they plunge into debt for eternity. Meanwhile, back in the real world, try to find a plumber. A person can make a very good living engaging in a trade and learn all they might want to know about art history in their spare time. Education isn't about letters after your name.

[Shermann]

73. The moments when I realized I may have been grifted

I went to an expensive private engineering school long ago.

As a freshman, I recall the first moment when I realized I may have been grifted. This was Calculus 101. The professor was world renowned, but English was a second language (he was Greek). You couldn't understand a word he said. Many of us had to get additional tutoring after hours to make sense of any of it. It was the same with Physics (he was Japanese). Then again with Electrical Science (Middle Eastern). Less renowned professors who were better communicators and instructors would have been far more effective. But it was all for show.

The second moment was Parents' Weekend. This school was many hours from anywhere, and there was no risk of most parents just dropping by. So there was a Parents' Weekend each year when they were all invited. Normally the campus was a bit dreary looking. This was not a "fun" school. But I must say things were really spruced up in anticipation of that weekend. The grass was cut, there were flowers lining the paths, the whole place was spick and span. It looked fun and inviting. The parents cut the checks, you see. It was all for show.

[Shermann]

75. Then there's the whole graduation rate issue

Colleges and universities have always had to do a tap dance to justify their existences. You've probably heard about the mythical million dollars more you can expect to make with a degree. You could have likely invested that tuition in an S&P index fund and made the million dollars, but forget about that for now. What about those who don't even graduate? Graduation rates are all over the map. So there's a very good chance with most schools that you will be dropping out and taking a big hit on that partial investment of a year or two of tuition.

Do schools average that risk into that million dollar promise? I doubt it. They can put the blame for that squarely on the student. Too easy.

I'm glad traditional financial investments can't get away with that style of accounting.

[H2O Man]

78. Sometimes Bill is funny.

He has a good sense of humor. But I would never mistake him for a deep-thinker. The fact that he considers himself to be one isn't so funny.

[hunter]

80. We should be paying people to go to college and trade schools...

... in direct competition with all the shitty jobs and asshole bosses of this world.

Yeah, there is always going to hard work to do, like changing diapers in nursing homes, picking strawberries, sorting trash in the recycling lines, but all that work should be highly respected and pay a comfortable living wage.

People should always be in a position to tell a shitty boss to "take this job and shove it!" without any fear of starvation and homelessness.

On the other hand, too many colleges, fueled by easy money, have been turned into Easy Pass Disneylands for the wealthy kids, and debt traps for the middle class.

My own university education was mostly paid for by the people of California and the U.S.A.. I graduated without debt. I may not have been a great investment, but it all could have turned out much much worse.