Ilhan Omar Again Sets Off a Fight Among Democrats

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

WASHINGTON — Representative Ilhan Omar is again at odds with her Democratic colleagues over Israel, but this time, she has brought her own country into the mix.

The latest contretemps began on Monday, when Ms. Omar, Democrat of Minnesota, wrote on Twitter about a virtual exchange she had with Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken. In the actual exchange, Ms. Omar pressed for an investigation of human rights abuses both by Israeli security forces and by Hamas. But on Twitter, she seemed to compare Israel and the United States not only to Hamas, considered a terrorist group by the State Department, but also to the Taliban.

“We must have the same level of accountability and justice for all victims of crimes against humanity,” she wrote. “We have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by the U.S., Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban.”

The analogy prompted outrage from a dozen Jewish Democrats in the House. They issued a statement saying that equating the United States and Israel to Hamas and the Taliban “is as offensive as it is misguided,” and, in congressional parlance usually meant to elicit an apology, they asked her to “clarify her words.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ilhan-omar-again-sets-off-a-fight-among-democrats/ar-AAKUbbx

[Voltaire2]

1. She's not wrong.

She just broke the rule "no criticism of israel allowed."

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

2. So you think the U.S. is equivalent to the taliban?

For all this countries short comings we're not that bad.

[Voltaire2]

3. I think the entire group mentioned has committed war crimes.

edit: and we are that bad. Did you want to compare, for example, civilian deaths caused by each of the listed groups?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

4. More false equivilance

Welcome to ignore.

[JohnSJ]

9. Her outrage is selective. She refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide by being the only

Democrat to vote Present. She could not bring herself to acknowledge what happened

[Zeitghost]

20. Indeed.

She puts her faith above all else, including acknowledging horrible crimes. If it were another outdated middle eastern superstition she followed she would get called out on it more around here.

[eissa]

38. This

Those of us who have been pushing for that acknowledgment haven't forgotten her cowardice. She can take her moral superiority and fuck right on off.

[Voltaire2]

30. how is 'civilian deaths caused by each'

a false equivalence? That is exactly the issue here, and all of the mentioned nations and organizations are guilty of it.

[Rustyeye77]

5. Except Hamas of course, right ?

She is annoying.

[Voltaire2]

12. no not except hamas

[Voltaire2]

28. Well a) I didn't bash israel and b) Netanyahu started this war.

It was a deliberate and transparent effort to divert away from his political and legal problems.

[Rustyeye77]

31. And YET again...you just cant utter a word about hamas.

Not a single word.

Spare me a response.

[EX500rider]

61. "Netanyahu started this war."

Last edited Fri Jun 11, 2021, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)

The war with Gaza & Hamas started when Hamas starting firing rockets at Israeli cities....unless you think that is the proper response to riot control in Jerusalem and to the some home evictions the Israeli courts ruled on.. None of which had anything to do with Gaza.

[Mariana]

43. That is not what she said.

“We must have the same level of accountability and justice for all victims of crimes against humanity,” she wrote. “We have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by the U.S., Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban.”

Reading is FUNdamental.

[RegularJam]

21. I think the mental justification goes like this.

The Taliban are all extreme and we are not all extreme. Therefore, per capital, we aren’t on the same playing field. What you and I are more likely to discuss is the actual scope and scale, which at a minimum would put those groups on an equal playing field.

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. Israeli courts have failed to protect Palestinians

from being illegally removed from their homes.

[Xoan]

7. +1

War crimes are crimes even when US commits them.

[Mosby]

26. Did Obama and Biden commit war crimes with the drone program?

Should we turn them over to be tried at the Hague?

[Voltaire2]

29. yes, and no as they have not been charged

[EX500rider]

41. How is killing isis before they commit atrocities by drone a war crime

[EX500rider]

11. Let me know when Hamas or the Taliban warn people to evacuate a building before they bomb it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. Let me know if you'll forgive an arsonist of your home

If he gives a warning first.

[EX500rider]

27. Warfare and arson are completely different things in case you didn't know.

The fact remains the US and Israeli militaries try to avoid civilian casualties while Hamas and the Taliban both try to cause them, so equating the 4 is completely dishonest IMO.

[wellst0nev0ter]

33. Killing 63 children is NOT "avoiding civilian casualties"

At this point, that slogan is just Israeli PR to gullible consumers.

[EX500rider]

34. When the combat is entirely urban and bombs from above it is.

Plus I take any "casualties figures" from the Hamas run health ministry with a grain of salt.
If Hamas didn't hide amoung civilians and launch their rockets from inside the cities there wouldn't be any civilian casualties.
100% of Hamas weapons were aimed at Israeli cities & civilians though. Israel does have military bases outside urban areas they could have aimed at.

[wellst0nev0ter]

35. Yes, we all know Hamas hides in six hospitals

And nine healthcare centers. That's some good precision bombing the IDF is doing.

[EX500rider]

37. You think a terrorist group like Hamas is above hiding in a hospital

Or storing munitions in the basement or launching rockets from the roof?
They've been known to do all those things

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. I'll bet those hospitals even treat Hamas fighters too

Gaza is destroyed and Hamas still has the capabilities to hit Israel. The IDF constantly fails at their job while killing scores of children

[EX500rider]

46. "The IDF constantly fails at their job"

Hamas fires around 4,000 rockets at the civilians of Israel and between Iron Dome and alerting the population to go into shelters the IDF safeguards their civilians as opposed to Hamas hiding amoung theirs. Hardly a fail.

[wellst0nev0ter]

48. Name one hospital Hamas has destroyed

I'll wait.

The IDF fails because they slaughter innocent civilians.

[EX500rider]

57. So firing 4,000 rockets at Israeli cities trying to kill civilians is not a war crime?

Just some Hamas 4th of July gone wrong?

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. How many bombs did Israel drop on Gaza?

How many civilians did IDF bombs kill?

Remember, this is the IDF, not Hamas. And despite the war crimes, IDF has failed to eliminate Hamas rockets. The IDF just kills kids.

[EX500rider]

59. I believe Hamas causality figures like I believe in the Easter Bunny.

And despite the war crimes, IDF has failed to eliminate Hamas rockets.
You mean the war crime of firing the rockets at Israel cities I assume.

[wellst0nev0ter]

60. Then which "causality figure" do you believe?

Take your time...

[EX500rider]

62. I'll take the IDF figures over the terrorist's groups figures.

[wellst0nev0ter]

65. Because the IDF bombs the health ministry building?

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-attacks-damage-health-ministry-building-in-gaza/2245238

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. But attacks like that are part of the problem

On the night of the attack, there were 105 patients in the hospital and 140 of our international and national staff were present, of whom 80 were on duty.

Starting at 2:08am on Saturday 3 October, a United States AC-130 gunship fired 211 shells on the main hospital building where patients were sleeping in their beds or being operated on in the operating theatre.

At least 42 people were killed, including 24 patients, 14 staff and 4 caretakers. Thirty-seven people were injured.

Our patients burned in their beds, our medical staff were decapitated or lost limbs. Others were shot from the air while they fled the burning building.

The attack from the air lasted for around one hour. The main hospital building came under precise and repeated airstrikes, while the surrounding buildings were left mostly untouched.

Throughout the airstrikes our teams desperately called military authorities to stop the attack.

https://www.msf.org/kunduz-hospital-attack-depth

[EX500rider]

56. Mistakes happen, war isn't pretty. Big difference between accidental and on purpose however.

On 25 November 2015, General John F. Campbell, the American commander in Afghanistan, spoke about the results of the investigation and described the incident as "the direct result of avoidable human error, compounded by process and equipment failures."[55] Campbell said that the investigation had showed that the AC-130 gunship crew misidentified the clinic as a nearby Taliban-controlled government building.[55] The American gunship had identified the building based on a visual description from Afghan troops, and did not consult their no-strike list, which included the coordinates of the hospital as provided by MSF.[55] Electronic equipment malfunctions on the gunship prevented it from accessing email and images, while a navigation error meant its targeting equipment also misidentified the target buildings.[56] The aircraft fired 211 shells at the building in 29 minutes, before American commanders realized the mistake and ordered the attack to stop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. Here we see the problem: the American military investigates itself, decides it was all an accident

and tells everyone to move on. This is not a just process. It's not war, either; the USA is allied with the Afghan government. It was a reckless attack on a building in an allied city that was bound to kill civilians, even if they had been competent enough to identify their target (and even if the US military investigation was honest about that).

[EX500rider]

64. "It's not war, either"

The US has been at war with the Taliban since 2001.
Taliban took over that city.
Combat operations were conducted to dislodge them from that city.
Plainly warfare in operation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. The Afghans and Americans had already regained control

From the 1st (the attack on the hospital was on the morning of the 3rd):

“By 3.30am, our special forces were able to retake the city and clear the city from terrorists,” said Sediq Sediqqi, spokesman for the Afghan interior ministry. He said: “There are lots of dead bodies of Taliban in the city right now. Hundreds of them.”

However, residents said fighting was continuing in several central areas, including around the police headquarters. Some militants were thought to have scattered to the districts, or to be hiding in civilian houses, which the army were searching door-to-door.
...
It was also unclear where the Taliban had gone. Some militants appeared to have fled before the government counter-offensive, taking vast quantities of seized weapons and vehicles with them to Chardara district, according to one resident. “For the moment, [the Taliban] are out of the city but I think they are more powerful now,” the resident said.

“The job is not done yet,” Sediqqi said. “We are still looking for explosives, terrorists and suicide bombers.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/01/afghan-forces-recapture-kunduz-from-taliban

Your Wikipedia article continued:

The Afghan Interior Ministry spokesman Sediq Sediqi confirmed an airstrike on 3 October, saying that "10–15 terrorists were hiding in the hospital" and confirming that hospital workers had been killed.[31] The Afghan Ministry of Defense and a representative of the police chief in Kunduz also said that Taliban fighters were hiding in the hospital compound at the time of the attack, the latter claiming that they were using it as a human shield.[4][32]

Médecins Sans Frontières said no Taliban fighters were in the compound. Christopher Stokes, general director of Médecins Sans Frontières, said in a statement late 4 October 2015: "MSF is disgusted by the recent statements coming from some Afghanistan government authorities justifying the attack on its hospital in Kunduz. These statements imply that Afghan and U.S. forces working together decided to raze to the ground a fully functioning hospital – with more than 180 staff and patients inside – because they claim that members of the Taliban were present. This amounts to an admission of a war crime."[33] Stokes said, "If there was a major military operation going on there, our staff would have noticed. And that wasn't the case when the strikes occurred."[32] On 5 October, the organization released a statement saying, "Their [U.S.] description of the attack keeps changing -- from collateral damage, to a tragic incident, to now attempting to pass responsibility to the Afghanistan government...There can be no justification for this horrible attack."[20]

So, not "plainly warfare in operation". What it looked like was a strike on a building they thought terrorists were hiding in, with no attempt to warn the innocent in the building. Which is why I brought it up - it's an example of the American military killing innocent people with no attempt to warn them.

[EX500rider]

67. Actually I never said the US gave warnings, that's what the IDF does.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. So it should be OK to put the Americans in the Hamas/Taliban list, then

since this subthread started with "Let me know when Hamas or the Taliban warn people to evacuate a building before they bomb it."

[EX500rider]

69. No I do not think the US military belongs in the same grouping as those terrorist groups.

The US tries not to kill civilians, those 2 groups actively do, Hamas more so then the Taliban, they at least also fight the Afghanistan military.

[intheflow]

6. She didn't set anything off.

Other Democrats jumped on her because they can't tell the difference between Jewish people and their government.

Put it this way, when people criticize the US government for bombing civilians, few people on the left start bitching about how such views are anti-US, or that the antiwar activist is prejudiced against Americans.

Antiwar ≠ Antisemitic.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

8. ....

[JohnSJ]

10. She is selective, as was demonstrated in her not voting for the resolution acknowledging the

Armenian genocide

[OnDoutside]

13. I wouldn't agree with her a lot of the time but this was a factual statement. I suspect the

collective indignation is bluster to avoid discussion. They've all committed atrocities but my atrocity is better than yours....

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Ilhan Omar clarifies remarks on Hamas, US and Israel, but not before condemning Jewish lawmakers'

Ilhan Omar clarifies remarks on Hamas, US and Israel, but not before condemning Jewish lawmakers’ demand for a clarification

...

“On Monday, I asked Secretary of State Antony Blinken about ongoing International Criminal Court investigations,” Omar said Thursday afternoon. “To be clear: the conversation was about accountability for specific incidents regarding those ICC cases, not a moral comparison between Hamas and the Taliban and the U.S. and Israel. I was in no way equating terrorist organizations with democratic countries with well-established judicial systems.”

...

The House leadership team, led by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, (D-Calif.), on Thursday welcomed the clarification. “Drawing false equivalencies between democracies like the U.S. and Israel and groups that engage in terrorism like Hamas and the Taliban foments prejudice and undermines progress toward a future of peace and security for all,” said a statement from Pelosi’s office. “We welcome the clarification by Congresswoman Omar that there is no moral equivalency between the U.S. and Israel and Hamas and the Taliban.”

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/ilhan-omar-clarifies-remarks-on-hamas-us-and-israel-but-not-before-condemning-jewish-lawmakers-demand-for-a-clarification

[Rustyeye77]

24. Hmmmm....BULLSHIT

[RegularJam]

17. I think Omar has said some stupid stuff.

This isn’t one of them. Finding a problem with this requires imagination.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

18. Not really

[RegularJam]

19. Yes, really.

Truly pathetic to take issue with such a basic and understandable comment.

[Bucky]

23. I don't know about Congress, but her comments sure have divided DUers in this thread

I don't think her comments exactly "compare the US to the Taliban" but it's not like the US hasn't committed some war crimes in the past couple of decades. We're pretty good at catching them and more honest than most countries at prosecuting them. But we shouldn't be afraid to examine our policies--and our allies--in the clear light of day.

Rep. Omar could be a little more politic in her comments, but she's not wrong.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

25. I guess the issue is accountability

Many of our service people who have committed for want of a better word "war crimes" were court martialed for their acts. Sadly Cheetolini pardoned many of these people.

Additionally for all our faults we don't arise to the level of sexism practiced by the Taliban.

Those who can't differentiate these are mentally lazy.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

32. For this thread

Link to tweet

[Cha]

36. Rt TY..

[DiamondShark]

44. American Taliban, wasn't that the group that stormed the Capitol on 1/6? n/t

[Caliman73]

42. Disagree with your assessment.

We have no Greene equivalent. Omar may say things that are hyperbolic, and which challenge the "norms" of discussion around issues like the Middle East and Israel, but she is not ignorant and stupid like Greene.

The problem here is that we have a dominant narrative and other narratives that are not accepted as valid. We label Hamas as a terrorist organization. However, what do you call it when the government comes in, at the request of people who have dubious legal right, to bulldoze homes, or to simply kick the previous owners out and say, "this is now my home, you need to leave".

When drone strikes ordered by our military, mistakenly hit a wedding party and kill innocent civilians (more than once) we call is tragic and an accident. Why? Because we can. Because anyone that challenges that narrative will face pressure and sanctions or will be called a "terrorist sympathizer" or "anti-Semitic".

You are right. We do not have equally repulsive ideologies as Hamas and the Taliban. We do however commit atrocities like they do. They are just called different things.

The same way that White people breaking into grocery stores were scavenging food for survival, and Black people doing the same were "Looters".

[BannonsLiver]

40. Not this Dem

As soon as anyone starts talking about Israel, Palestine and the several thousand year old tribal dispute in the desert my eyes glaze over and I lose interest very quickly. It’s sort of like a natural defense.

Spoiler alert: It never gets solved.

[arthritisR_US]

50. She's absolutely right and the outrage is more

telling.

[Deminpenn]

51. Under Bush-Cheney the US tortured prisoners

at Abu Garib and sent other to "black sites" to be tortured, too. We should never forget that.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

52. No shit

And the perps were tried and convicted by our military. When the Taliban does the same with theirs let me know.

[Deminpenn]

54. Sure you want to hang your hat on that argument?

nt

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

55. Hang my hat?

Were they convicted or not?

I wish Bush and Cheney were held accountable too but sadly it's almost always the small guy that takes the fall.

[iemanja]

75. A few scapegoats were convicted

while the vast majority of those who ordered and participated in torture faced no consequences. That is the most basic information that EVERYONE knows.

[iemanja]

70. The US aided and abetted the killing of tens of thousands

throughout Latin American during the Cold War, and no one except a handful for the Iran Contra situation were ever held to account.
The US is guilty of some of the worst human rights abuses in history. They overthrew democratically elected administrations to install murderous dictatorships throughout Latin America. They actively participating in torture of priests and nuns in Central America. Pretending the US somehow holds people accountable for those actions is ludicrous. And then there is Vietnam. On top of that, only a few were held accountable for the widespread torture under Bush.
You have a responsibility to educate yourself about your own country. Your naivety is unacceptable.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

71. Oh FFS your fantasy world is bizarre

Those central American regimes did that not the U.S.

[iemanja]

72. WRONG

The US installed those governments. They financed them and trained their military in torture at the School of the Americans. Americas ( https://www.dukeupress.edu/the-school-of-the-americas) also participated in the torture, as evidenced by accounts of torture victims like Sister Diana Ortiz. You know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about. Your posts are offensive. They discount tens of thousands of lives. The US got away with that behavior because people didn't care. They don't care about those lives and make excuses for US activity. Pretending that the US was not responsible and not an active participant is horrifyingly false.

Besides, you ignore the entire rest of Latin America--the US intervened militarily in Latin America over a hundred times between the 1890s and 1914. This Wikipedia entry lists just a few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America%E2%80%93United_States_relations

The Oxford history on the subject: https://oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-643

The US installed the murderous Pinochet government and affirmatively supported and funded his murders. They trained the torturers at School of the Americans and trained torturers on site in Latin American nations. They trained the murderers in Argentina's Dirty War and then brought them to Central America.
There are so many more examples.
There is a reason the US refuses to join the International Criminal Court at the Hague. They don't want members of their own military and intelligence services as well as presidential administrations held accountable for their actions.

If you had ever taken an intro to Latin American history for the national period, you would learn about these and other cases. There is so much to read on this subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Open-Veins-Latin-America-Centuries/dp/0853459916
https://timeline.com/the-cia-wrote-a-torture-manual-more-than-50-years-ago-and-then-gave-it-to-latin-american-dictators-dcb771d4842b
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor#U.S._involvement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War#United_States_involvement_with_the_junta
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctvq2vwpw
https://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Fruit-American-Guatemala-Expanded/dp/067401930X
https://www.democracynow.org/2005/10/12/sister_dianna_ortiz_details_her_abduction
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Torture-American-Way-Consequences/dp/0807003077/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=US+torture+Latin+America&qid=1623457140&sr=8-4
There is so much written about this, it's not acceptable to repeat false claims. Accusing me of living in a fantasy world is false. I have a PhD in Latin American history and taught those history classes for years. You, on the other hand, are entirely ignorant on the subject.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

73. Wikipedia

The user edited source.

What happened to you Baines Bain? You used to be reasonable.

[iemanja]

74. I gave you books from Duke University Press

the Oxford history of Latin America. I posted an article from JSTOR, a reputable aggregator of academic articles. I gave you Eduardo Galleano, The Open Veins of Latin America. It is a classic. There is so much more. Here is a google scholar search that lists over 200,000 articles. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C24&q=US+torture+in+latin+america&btnG= You can access some of them IF you were to care about informing yourself.

I also provided Wikipedia entries because you have to read an actual book, which takes time, to learn about the matter thoroughly. And access is also an issue. Information on this subject is widely available. Much of it is common knowledge. I don't know if you lived through the 1980s, but if you did, you must have worked hard not to expose yourself to some of this information.

Your posts aren't cute. You aren't cute. You repeat blatant falsehoods. Not only that, you laugh about mass murder. Your behavior is shocking.

[iemanja]

76. You could also read a basic textbook

used in national period Latin American history courses. https://www.amazon.com/History-Latin-America-Benjamin-Keen-dp-1133050506/dp/1133050506/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

I used older versions of this textbook when I taught at a university.

There is nothing obscure about this information.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

53. See below.