Another simple but excellent way to understand what "white privilege' is.

[StarfishSaver]

"Privilege isn't the presence of perks and benefits. It's the absence of obstacles and barriers. That's a lot harder to notice. If you have a hard time recognizing your privilege, focus on what you don't have to go through. Let that fuel your empathy and action."

[LanternWaste]

1. K&R, nt

[Elessar Zappa]

2. Yes.

K&R.

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[Fullduplexxx]

4. Being treated they one is supposed to be treated is not privilege

Imo

[StarfishSaver]

7. It is indeed privilege if the reason you:re being treated that way is that you are white.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. True, but it IS a privilege if OTHERS ARE NOT treated as they are supposed to be

When there is a difference without defensible cause, then there is privilege.

You may be thinking of +2 compared to +1 where +1 is the state of "treated as one is supposed to be treated".

It's more like +1.2 compared to 0.8, on average. But to obtain that average, some whites are treated as +2.2 while some non-whites are treated as -0.2.

Likewise, if most are +1 and some are 0 and a few are treated as -1, then there is privilege for those treated +1, even if the +1 are treated as they are are supposed to be treated (+1).

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

5. That's such a good way of putting it.

I'm a white female, and while I've had no trouble noticing the barriers put up against women, it's harder being aware of my white privilege.

In recent years I've become very aware of Old White Lady Privilege. Which is, the rare times I have a traffic stop, I never get a ticket. It helps that I live in New Mexico, where there is a lot of respect for their mothers and grandmothers. So if I am stopped, I look like Mom, or more likely Grandma these days. I'm yet to meet up with a cop willing to ticket Grandma. Yes, it helps that I've never done anything truly terrible, and that I am always polite and respectful, but still. The times I'm thinking of the officer would have been fully justified in issuing a ticket. But I don't get one. I appreciate that.

[Claire Oh Nette]

37. This

+1

I'm cleverly disguised as a soccer mom, but I have no kids, and I don't play soccer.

I've had tickets in 8 states, all speeding. Never asked to get out of the car, never searched, seized, or even seen a firearm up close.

As women, we get barriers and obstacles....

[Mister Ed]

6. An excellent mental exercise. Sort of like this one, that's always worked for me:

First, I look at the white guys I've known in my life. Guys of all sorts, and all occupations, and all stations in life. Friends of mine, friends of my Dad's, old classmates, co-workers, whatever.

Then I look over at the Black guys. And then over at the white guys again. Then I look at the Black guys again, and back at the white guys, and back at the Black guys...

And it sets me to shaking my head in wonder that anyone can possibly fail to see how much easier we white guys have it, all through our lives. I mean, wow.

[StarfishSaver]

8. I LOVE this!

[Mister Ed]

10. Just my faint attempt at humor in addressing a terribly aggravating topic.

It just seems to me that trying to talk about white privilege puts one in the frustrating position of having to carefully, patiently, painstakingly explain the obvious, over and over again...

[StarfishSaver]

11. It does

And not only are we expected to explain it in just the exact perfect terms dictated by those we're explaining it to, if they decide the topic or framing is not to their liking, we are accused of being divisive, driving away allies (as if real allies would be driven away from the cause over something this petty), and, of course, calling them racists ...

[Ligyron]

15. Same thing with CRT, Now that I think of it.

[StarfishSaver]

44. See a pattern there?

[renate]

66. Oh wow. This says SO much and is SO true

I guess that’s the way any kind of persuasion works, but it’s especially galling that we have to cater to the people in power’s delicate sensibilities even while we’re trying to clarify why they really are the people in power.

[StarfishSaver]

85. You nailed it.

The people in the most powerful position expect to be approached and handled gingerly and tenderly as if they are the ones who have been victimized.

Excellent point!

[NJCher]

17. Lemmmmeeeee tell you a story about white guy privilege

although this is men/women:

When I go to Home Depot (rare anymore because of their politics) by myself I am invisible.

But let me walk in with my spouse and HD workers are running up to us, "Can I help you with anything?"

It's amazing. I am the one who needs help, not him. So why do they rush to help him and not me?

[azureblue]

39. I got one

White musician here - I used to play jazz with a black guitar player. A great musician and a true friend. We would trade off driving to gigs. When he was driving, he would get pulled over for nothing. And the belligerent cop attitude changed when they say my cracker face in the car with him. But we never got pulled over when I drove even though our cars were pretty much the same condition.

After this one gig, the guitar player went outside to have a smoke and wait for me. When I came out two cops had him up against the wall and had dumped his $5000 guitar out onto the ground. I yelled at the cops about who he was (the headliner (his name was on the marquee right above their heads) and they said "he was selling drugs". The club owner came out right behind me, and ripped both cops up and down. And they dared not say a word back to him because he was really connected. They knew it, so they tried to walk away from it. The owner made the cops stand there while he and the guitar played inspected the guitar for damage. Fortunately, there was none. Cops refused to apologize and left.
"Black guy standing on corner with big guitar case- must be a drug dealer or be strapped". Yeah right, pigs.

[Retired Engineer Bob]

56. I have a similar story

I was a white consulting engineer that periodically visited fenced in water and wastewater remote facilities. Never had a problem.

I knew a black system integrator/programmer that had similar duties. He was at a remote site recently, the cops showed up, demanded ID, and questioned him on what he was doing. Never would have happened if he were white.

Very happy to say he was recently offered a job at my previous firm. I’m sure he was offered a nice salary bump. He accepted, and will be a great addition to the team. Has the fantastic combination of technical competence and great client focused personality.

[whathehell]

78. Male Privilege isn't just a "white" guy thing

It exists in all races -- white men have it in relation to white women, black men have it relative to black women, Asian men relative to Asian women, etc.

[StarfishSaver]

84. True

But white males have privilege over all of the other men and women in your scenario, by virtue of their whiteness. And white women have privilege over everyone you listed except white men.

A Black man may have privilege over Black women, but only in that one-to-one relationship. He does not necessarily have a privilege over black women in dealings white men or white women. A Black woman does not have any privilege over a white woman or a white man. An Asian man does not have privilege over a Black woman or a white woman.

But a white man's privilege super seeds that of all of them, while a white woman's privilege is second only to that.

[DenaliDemocrat]

86. You need to video this

Because I’ve never seen a HD employee offer to help ANYONE. It’s a horrible store

[George II]

21. Growing up in NYC, there were a number of times that I'd get into a situation, to me....

....just an everyday encounter, and then not give it a second thought. Then after I'd wonder, "how would that have worked out if I was Black or Hispanic?" Many of those times I'd feel a wave of guilt, and wonder what every day life is like for non-whites.

It's like that Tyler Perry movie when the four Black women are in a boutique in a resort in Colorado. They started having a vigorous conversation, and the store clerk comes over and says, "we don't keep any cash in the store." Would that have been said if it was four white women having the same conversation?

I admit, I've also been in situations where I'd be stopped at a traffic light in a neighborhood I wasn't familiar with and I'd casually close my car window and locked my door. I remember one time I was in downtown LA and did that, two Black guys on the corner started laughing at me, I smiled back and re-opened my window. They laughed and waved!!

I suppose people have different attitudes, too, depending upon where and how they were raised.

[whathehell]

79. You might want to add "female" to that list too..

All oppression isn't racial.

[c-rational]

9. Yes, yes, yes...like not having to drink contaminated water or breathe dirty air.

[TigressDem]

71. Speak for yourself, I grew up outside of LA ; )

Air WAS awful, had no PE on certain days if the SMOG was too bad, back in the '70's. You could taste it, feel it burning your lungs.

Driving down from the mountains one time could actually SEE the SMOG bowl.

OK, the water was chlorinated, so it was technically safe, but ewwww like drinking the swimming pool. Still better than really polluted water.

Still mostly grateful.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. Yes. I think this framing makes it easier for many whites to grasp

Sometimes I wish that the accepted term for how whites benefit in our multi-racial society was instead "white advantage" rather than "white privilege." Being white in America bestows a clear advantage over being of another race here. A lot of people associate "privilege" with getting something"special", as in something that an average person is not entitled to receive. What whites receive is the good fortune of not being discriminated against due to their race and the color of their skin, and that provides whites with a huge advantage over non-whites.

[StarfishSaver]

14. And, of course, we must center all framing around words and terms that make white people

comfortable.

Yet whenever anyone even suggests that white people could perhaps word things a leeeetle differently so that it's not offensive to or heard wrong by people of color, we are attacked for being overly-sensitive, politically correct, driving away our allies, and, of course, accusing white people of being racist.

I understand your point, but the phrase is not the problem and no change in the language will make any difference to some people. We could call it "white advantage" or "white people are awesomely wonderful" and we'd still get pushback if we are talking about white people playing on a field that is not perfectly equal.

The problem is that too many white people don't want to even consider that being white confers upon them privileges that other people don't have.

[barbtries]

23. this.

"i worked hard for everything i've got" never for a second acknowledging that millions of people work just as hard all their lives and end up with nothing.

I worked with a man who got schooled by his daughter in this respect, but the subject was student loan forgiveness. He'd worked his way through college and medical school at a time when the cost of his education was a fraction of what it is today, but it would really piss him off to think that students drowning in debt should be helped out. One of his jobs was crewing a sailboat all summer long; how many people could have scored that job?

He couldn't see the privilege he'd enjoyed because all he could recall was that he worked all the way through and graduated without debt. He definitely had a leg up all his life because he was white and enjoyed a middle class childhood, never knew real want. Happily he and his wife raised 3 daughters who get it.

[whathehell]

32. The problem is, making people uncomfortable is as likely

to turn them off to you and your struggle, as it is to draw them in and make them allies.
It may be a question of walking a fine line between "speaking your truth", and refusing to unnecessarily alienate potential allies.

[StarfishSaver]

43. I'm sorry, but that's BS

If this topic weren't uncomfortable, it would have been dealt with long ago. One of the reasons it's uncomfortable is because it's a topic that some white people don't want to ever address, regardless how it's framed.

We don't need to keep centering all of the discussions around the comfort of white people. What about the comfort of the black and brown people who have to deal with this crap every minute of every day? What about the comfort of black and brown people who are tired of being told by white people that they really care about our issues and would do something about it if we just talk to them more nicely? What about the comfort of black and brown people who are sick of having every discussion about this issue hijacked with ridiculous arguments about semantics and how our words should be shaped to make white people feel better?

If white folks think that there's a better way to explain this concept to their fellow white people in a manner that won't cause them any discomfort, then they need to get busy and start explaining it to them and stop looking at us to do all the explaining and then berate us because we aren't doing it to their liking.

[whathehell]

77. I'm sorry, but you're wrong..

but you may not realize it until you decide what your real goal is:
Pissing off white people, or making progress by utilizing the white allies that you do, in fact, need. .

[tonedevil]

80. Nothing white privileged about what you just wrote.

[whathehell]

81. Lol..You're actually correct..Nothing is.

[StarfishSaver]

83. "Don't piss me off or I won't help you fight for racial justice"

says no ally, ever.

But such threats do help us sort out true allies from the racial justice hobbyists.

[whathehell]

91. Lol.. Obviously, you have no experience in organizing, as it's hardly

that simple, and please, there is no "threat" implied.

The point is, like friendships, allies and alliances must be created and cultivated -- One can't just assume they are there, and even if they are, that they'll stay or work to their full potential..They must be treated like people -- Not like morally indentured servants to a cause.

[StarfishSaver]

93. Your post says more about white privilege than you probably realize

Among other things, your assumption that alliances are one-way relationships that black people must "create and cultivate" with no reciprocal responsibility by white folk, as if fighting for racial justice is a favor or gift they are bestowing upon us, speaks volume.

[whathehell]

106. Not at all -- In fact, your erroneous characterization of it

as such says more about your bias than you realize..

I could say a lot more, but I'd guess that to be a waste, as your mind is clearly made up. Goodbye.

[Tom Rinaldo]

40. Of course I agree with you

My comment was offered along similar lines to that which you quoted in your OP. I might try using the phrase "white advantage" in conversations with fellow whites who just don't get it, if I think it will help them to get it. The fact that they don't get it is a huge problem exactly as you describe: "The problem is that too many white people don't want to even consider that being white confers upon them privileges that other people don't have."

It is flat out ugly how many whites claim that they are "victims" of reverse racism or "cancel culture" when anyone, especially a person of color, attempts to confront them or even gently inform them regarding their privilege. The only reason why I care at all about how matters of racism are framed is because racism has to be eradicated and a big part of doing so is to reeducate clueless whites to the extent possible.

But it should not be the responsibility of the victims of white racism to have to coddle whites around their racist assumptions with words carefully chosen to not offend them. Whites who reject racism are obligated to do the work of confronting racist attitudes within white families and communities.

[TigressDem]

67. Everytime someone has shown me some way I have any subconscious white shit going on, I thank them.

However, non-specific "white advantage" or whatever IS hard to grasp.

You might look at me and assume I'm racist by whatever clothes I'm wearing, not knowing I can only afford to shop at Wal-Mart or Good Will so sorry, not on purpose. I have no idea what is in someone else's mind if they don't say it.

I was young, in my 20's and got schooled about how when someone beat me from the bus to the job site that she must have been a racehorse in a former life hearkened back to people treating blacks like animals or accusing them of acting like animals. I love animals. Little bit Native American wishful thinking that we can gain some of their strength by learning about them... HAD NO CLUE.

But once the cards were on the table, DOH. Got it. Never seen anyone put a black person down as being an animal, not even on TV or in a movie. Saw a lot of OTHER kinds of awful. Somehow sidestepped it until I myself plopped it down. So I was grateful to learn not to do that.

Also pissed off a skinhead by implying he was an ace repair man who could make anything work with bubblegum and bailing wire. (Jerry Rig.... apparently is a dig on WWII Germans who were called Gerrys vs the US Joes) Implying he didn't have the REAL parts to fix something was like saying he was not able to get the parts due to whatever and that was shameful. Again, I grew up white poor and if you could fix something without spending money, you were damn smart in our book. I apologized for that too and never did that again either.

But I know being married to my husband shields me from abject poverty because his degree and whiteness keeps him employed. He works hard and has since 16 years old. I'm a woman who stands up for the oppressed. Even if I don't open my mouth people can see what I think written on my face. Maybe I've lost a job or two due to that. Good riddance.

I praise God that I have enough clean water to give my cat fresh water when other places in the world that isn't even a consideration. People don't even have it.



I walked down to George Floyd Square again this weekend. Cried my damn eyes out again. For him, for Breonna, for little 2 year olds and Grandmas in Publix getting shot down for NO FU**ING REASON. For all the hate, rage and stupidity out there.


ALL I CAN SAY is WE ARE ONE RACE. The HUMAN Race.
Lots of varieties, otherwise it would be a dull ass world.


But George was one of my own. He lived in my neighborhood. I DON'T GIVE NO F*** that his skin was different than mine. HE WAS MY NEIGHBOR. God tells us to take care of each other and that honkey cop made our neighborhood a place of shame and terror - again. But until I saw it I thought THOSE kind of cops got their as**s handed to them and kicked off the force as a matter of justice.

IT TOOK THE WHOLE WORLD COMING APART AT THE SEAMS to get justice for George and even then it was only a partial win.

I get it. It pisses me off and breaks my heart, but I get it.

If I could go back in time, it would have been me who died. I'd have pushed that cop off George and got myself shot for sure. But it would have been worth it.

[TigressDem]

72. This

Does make more sense.

[H2O Man]

13. Recommended.

[Spazito]

16. Excellent and, sadly, still needed.

[mcar]

18. This is a very good explanation

Thanks.

[NJCher]

19. focus on what you don't have to go through

Last edited Sat Jun 12, 2021, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

well how do you know that, other than social media and the news, if you're a person of privilege?

And even with those news stories and social media posts, a lot is left out.

I'm not so sure I think this is an effective meme.

[StarfishSaver]

22. You think white people can't see what life is like for people of color?

If a white person is that isolated - either because they have no Black or Brown friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. or are too self-involved to notice what people who don't look like them have to deal with in this country - no amount of explaining is going to help them. They're already lost, so they aren't among the people any of us are trying to explain this to.

[barbtries]

26. on one hand i agree with you,

on the other hand, it never hurts to try. people i love take this position. somewhere inside them they do know what life is like for black people, but they want to blame those people. after all, oprah, obama, etc. they do not want to acknowledge that they started out many rungs up the ladder. but for people i love, i still try.

[StarfishSaver]

28. "It doesn't hurt to try" - maybe

But it often does hurt. For one thing, it's exhausting. Second, it's a distraction, a burden - like an extra job Black people have that white people don't have to deal with - you know, another example of white privilege being not having to go around educating people all the time just to be understood and seen (and having those efforts rejected and whitesplained ...)

It's really important for white people to step up more and talk to and challenge other white people. It's absolutely wearing Black folk out. I'm glad you're trying.

[NJCher]

38. a basic rule in communication

is to phrase in the positive.

Phrase in the negative and you decrease the message by 35%.

This is a message that is phrased in the negative.

Does it matter? Hell yes.

We only have so much attention time with any one person, so a message like this, which is not phrased effectively, wastes time and opportunity.

I used to tell my comm classes: it is your job as a writer to make the message instantly understandable.

This message is like an assignment sheet. Not OK as a communique. If its objective is something else, it might be fine.

[StarfishSaver]

41. Discussing white privilege is not a communication issue. It just describes something

It's not the responsibility - or at least the sole responsibility - of black people and brown people to educate and explain to white people. And it's particularly annoying to have white people tell us that we're explaining it all wrong.

Any white person who thinks that "white privilege" does not appropriately or effectively describe the phenomenon we're discussing, They are certainly free to come up with their own terminology to describe it - And then take it upon themselves to talk to their fellow white people about it in the terms they think they'll understand.

It's not our job.

And it certainly not helpful to have white folk sit back critique and score our language like they're sitting around a conference table in Mad Men, telling us "Nope that doesn't work for us. Go back to the copywriters room, try again and come back when you have something that we can work with."

[NJCher]

47. any black communicator

will tell you the same thing.

[StarfishSaver]

48. ANY Black communicator would say that Black people need to adjust our language about race and racism

to satisfy the sensibilities of white people?

And what would white commentators say about white people adjusting their language about race to satisfy the sensibilities of Black people?

Do share ...

[NJCher]

52. I'm only sticking to my point here

If you want to go off on a tangent, feel free to do so but I won't be engaging with you on it.

In the case cited, it matters not whether the person is white or black. In other situations, it might.

[tonedevil]

51. Is that what your black friend told you? /nt

[ShazzieB]

62. I (unfortunately) know a lot of white people who can't see past the end of their own noses. ☹

And as much as I wish that I could open their eyes. I know you're right about most of those people being a lost cause. I'm glad you pointed that out, because I think white people like me are prone to lose sight of that. We get caught up in thinking, "If I could just come up with the perfect way of explaining things to them, then they would get it!" When in fact, that is not always the case.

That said, I think it's fine for us white folks to play around with different ways of explaining to other whites to see if they make a difference with anybody, as long as we keep our expectations realistic. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all that. But that is definitely not something I expect members of oppressed communities to do. That is not your job, as you pointed out in another post.

[StarfishSaver]

63. ...

[TigressDem]

73. Sometimes though, you know something is going on but not exactly what.

Last edited Sun Jun 13, 2021, 03:15 AM - Edit history (1)

I had a coworker, who was black but light skinned. She was smart and got promoted to a management position.

I know another co-worker who was a little shit that caused me trouble too because I told her to butt out when I was answering a question for someone who asked me. I was a team lead and she was on the project that updated our procedures. She was trying to over speak my answer because I was giving today's answer and she wanted to show off Monday's answer to show what a smarty pants and prestigious person she was. I got a little snarky and told her if I wanted her opinion I would give it to her or something like that and the whole office saw the burn and she marched into the office of the Service Center Manager who just told me not to spank her in public. Bring her into the boss's office and let it happen there out of site.

I KNOW she had issues with this chick, but I don't know exactly what. My talented coworker handled her better than I did (obviously) but maybe I got a way with an overt slam at least once because we were both white. I don't know. She was smart and tough and when I tried to ask, she just brushed me off.

So that is an example of knowing something is up, but still not fully having the information.

[TigressDem]

68. Thing is it is SO multilayered.

I knew what it was like for the poor people I grew up with, but I met some more well to do folk that had a whole other level of crap thrown at them.

I didn't know how (if) the father of a black friend who was a doctor was treated at work. I was 6/7 at the time and didn't know much, but they seemed happy and successful. I just thought it was cool.

As an adult I can guess there would still be a lot of ways that rich snobby people could put them down or let me into their world based on the color of my skin, but because I don't think that way, and can't warp my brain around it, I don't know what they faced to get to where they were. Adults don't tell other people's kids about that stuff.

I see people as people. If someone is mistreated in my presence, the one doing the mistreating will be addressed if I have ANY power in the situation at all or can find someone with that power.

But to get inside the brain of the people who choose to oppress is like trying to figure out why some people like bacon on ice cream. It JUST DOES NOT COMPUTE to me.

Sorry if that is your jam, but I just don't get bacon and ice cream.

[totodeinhere]

20. Sadly, many white people including some I know have no problem with white privilege

because they are white themselves and benefit from it.

[StarfishSaver]

25. That's a big part of the problem, I fear

It's not that those people don't understand what white privilege is. They know exactly what it is, enjoy the benefits of it and don't want to give it up - they don't realize that giving up privilege doesn't mean giving up what comes with it. It just means that the privilege they enjoy are also shared by other people.

For example, in today's America, white people enjoy a privilege of knowing it's likely they will not be threatened, abused or killed in an encounter with the police while Black and Brown people must live with the fear that they will be. Giving up that privilege means that Black and Brown people would feel as safe around the police as white people do - not that white people would suddenly start needed to fear for their lives when pulled over by a police officer.

[TigressDem]

69. And YOU don't understand EITHER

In the civil rights marches, whites who supported the black cause were also killed.

Have you seen a BLM protest crowd and how many white people are right in there getting tear gas and rubber bullets right along side the black protesters?

What makes you think we aren't afraid of the police too?

And of the stupid Boogaloo Bois killing white folk and blaming it on BLM? Or Antifa?


https://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/civil-rights-memorial/civil-rights-martyrs



During the aftermath of the George Floyd murder before they brought the National Guard to Minneapolis, my son was on our OWN door step, actually with the door open so he was technically IN HIS OWN HOME and had his cell phone recording an interaction with police and some people they pulled over, he thought they were Latinos.

"Just making sure everyone is safe, officer." That officer had a rifle trained on my son, laser sight on his chest. I was standing right beside him.

My son kept talking and reiterating his right to be in his own home and observe this situation. Now yes, that might be white privilege and in some ways my son is a stupid "tRumpie" I could throw in the Mississippi River at times, but that night he used his white card to make sure those people didn't get mistreated.

Still, if you stand up for people of color in these situations, white MIGHT keep you from dying, might not.

[StarfishSaver]

89. White people getting hurt in civil rights demonstrations is not proof of lack of privilege

Perhaps you missed one of the strategies in the BLM demonstrations - when the police began closing in on the black marchers, the black demonstrators yelled out "White people up front!" Whereupon the white people in the back moved forward and stepped in front of the black marchers, knowing that their whiteness would be seen and treated very differently by the police.

That's not a demonstration of lack of privilege. That's a perfect illustration of how some white people recognize and acknowledge their privilege and then leverage it for good.

[TigressDem]

97. But you mistake courage for lack of fear

We ARE afraid, but we do it anyway.

We throw down our white privilege to stop the crazy because we know it's what makes the average black person think we don't care and don't have a clue.

There are things I don't know and that you don't know, but some days I get sick of black people who want their freedom being pissed at me because of something I can't control either.

I didn't ask to be born white any more than you asked to be born black. It's just the way it is.

But how we treat each other is a choice.

I choose love.

Just sick of being kicked in the face on DU where we are supposed to be on the same side.

WTF has happened to this place?

[StarfishSaver]

98. Not sure how you got that from anything I've written

[TigressDem]

99. Being white isn't always a "get out of jail free" card

It may buy time, but the KKK and crew are irate at every one of us for turning against their agenda.

I am not saying it's a bad strategy. And yes, when it's US against Them and they see white people staring back it causes a slight short circuit which helps.

What frustrates me is no matter how much I learn, no matter how much I care, even if I die for this cause I am still looked at as a clueless white woman instead of an ally.

It's like you walk up to me saying, "Hey, Honkey how come you still so stupid?" Then pissed at me for being offended.



Whereupon the white people in the back moved forward and stepped in front of the black marchers, knowing that their whiteness would be seen and treated very differently by the police.

[StarfishSaver]

100. You know this isn't about you and your feelings, right?

And that doggedly insisting on centering the discussion on their own feelings, complaining about being picked on, feeling unappreciated, or claiming to be getting "kicked in the face" whenever conversations get uncomfortable is not the behavior of true allies in the fight for racial justice?

[TigressDem]

102. Then give me actual examples.

Something I can DO something about.

You have to see white privilege or advantage. What can I actually DO about that is the problem.

It's at a point of I don't know what else I CAN do to prove I hate racism as much as anyone oppressed by it. I have been actively fighting back since I was 6 years old.

I care about how it feels for a black person to be shamed or mistreated or burned by the system

If we are fellow humans, maybe it wouldn't hurt you to give a shit about my feelings. Or don't.

If we aren't going to be touchy feely, then get off this BS of making us see that we are white and your oppressors by birth and ask me to do something real time.

Can't have it both ways. Either we are both humans and care about treating each other right or you want to use us as cannon fodder to climb up the ladder of white bodies until we are no longer the majority.

MLK or Malcom X.

[StarfishSaver]

103. As I said, this is not about you

So why do you keep trying to make it so?

It's not up to me to give you "examples," or tell you what you should do or demand that I "give a sh+t about [your] feelings when discussing the concept of white privilege.

This. Is. Not. About. You.

But since you want to talk about you, I'll simply suggest that, stop trying to prove you hate racism and, instead of demanding that I tell you what to do, you look around and figure out on your own what you can and should do. And then do it.

But carrying on about your feelings and accusing a stranger on an internet discussion board of not paying enough attention to them doesn't count as allyship or activism.

And you can also go research some history to give you enough information that you don't again say such things as "MLK or Malcolm X" in this context ...

[tonedevil]

104. What do you mean...

MLK or Malcolm X? Every way I can understand it seems very tone deaf at best.

[StarfishSaver]

105. ... at best ...

[Beastly Boy]

27. Absence of obstacles is one, but not the only characteristic of privilege.

Privilege, especially white privilege, has a lot to do with the nature of obstacles: their purpose, history and context within American society. When we are talking about white privilege, the obstacles we are referring to are overwhelmingly artificial: there is no rational reason for them to exist. They were created and are maintained for the benefit of one group of Americans at the expense of another group of Americans. Other than that, I consider white privilege to be just one side of the coin we commonly call "racial inequality". The reason we find privilege, including white privilege harder to notice is because it is institutionalized and has been taken for granted.

Sadly, I suspect that recognizing white privilege, no matter how important it is to do so, will not change attitudes. Institutionalizing equality will.

[TigressDem]

70. How about outing the specific forms you know about?

OK, there used to be "redlining" by banks which kept certain property areas "white" by banks not loaning to people of "color" in those locations. Banks would loan to blacks to live in cities, but not suburbs, for example.

Then large cities had heavy minority populations and less of a tax base because of pay rate discrimination so less was available for schools creating the "need" for busing for example to balance the student distribution artificially.

In the suburbs every time low income housing is proposed it gets push back because "it will lower our property values" or some such nonsense to justify keeping their space "white".

NOT being pulled over for being black in the vicinity of a crime. I know that one.

Having the mistaken idea that bad police officers got kicked off the force for police brutality and/or killing without real cause just because the victim is black.

Not knowing how offensive certain statues or art/jewelry is.

Not being mistaken for a janitor because you are black at a large trade event. (I saw it happen once.)

What else? I don't think like an oppressor. I don't get it.

I don't WANT it really, but if it will help others NOT be oppressed, slap it down so it makes sense whenever I would see it in the wild.

[Beastly Boy]

94. I am assuming you are asking about forms of privilege that don't constitute absence of obstacles

You have done a pretty good job of coming up with examples.

But let me see if I can make myself a bit clearer: in the context of the OP and to address its premise, I made a distinction between removing obstacles to benefit a certain group of people and creating obstacles to disadvantage a different group of people. To me, the latter is a bigger part of white privilege than the former.

The most glaring example of it I could think of is voter suppression. For instance, requiring a driver's license applies equally to all voters and is therefore nominally represents an obstacle to both white and non-white voters. However, the difficulty of obtaining one is statistically verifiable to favor white voters over black voters and overwhelmingly favor white natural born Americans over recent immigrants . A similar mechanism applies to gerrymandering: it doesn't in itself affect individual vote casting, but it affects the total of votes cast per administrative territorial unit, wich in most cases disadvantage one group of voters in favor of another.

But more important than individual instances, is the political and economic power behind each one of them that enables to institutionalize them. In itself, racism does not necessarily constitute privilege. But when it is institutionalized, racism gains the implicit, if not outright explicit, support of a sovereign state. And it is the power and the authority of the State that transforms your everyday pedestrian racism and legitimizes it into white privilege.

[TigressDem]

95. So making it illegal to give water to voters in line...

Which is a slap in the face of voters already being faced with long lines due to Gerrymandering in the first place.

As well as the laws against voting on Sundays which was obviously to prevent the motivated church goers who were pushing on together for solidarity.

These are new obstacles going up. Jim Crow 2.0 as some have described it.

[Beastly Boy]

96. Absolutely. And making these actions the law of the land is the key.

It's no longer random thugs threatening voters. It is the State lending undisputable legitimacy to random thugs who threaten voters.

[TigressDem]

101. They can't win on merit, so block the votes. Or...

Even worse they are setting up to steal any election we STILL manage to win, by grabbing the votes and recounting them outside of proper transparency.

It isn't who voted that counts then, but who counts the vote that matters.

It isn't even just against the black voters any more. They are init to destroy Democracy so they can rule the world and crush anyone they want under their feet.

[Jeebo]

29. What Marie Beecham describes is not White privilege.

It is a level of fairness and justice that ought to be afforded to everybody, but too often is not afforded to Black people. What she is describing is the absence of Black disprivilege in White people's lives. I am not going to say always, but almost always, when people talk about White privilege, they are actually talking about the absence of Black disprivilege. They are talking about a level of disparity between the way White people are generally treated and the way Black people are generally treated, but they are mislabeling that disparity as privilege for White people when it actually is just fairness for White people, the way EVERYBODY ought to be treated, and unfairness -- disprivilege -- for Black people.

-- Ron

[ahlnord]

34. Yes, "privilege" is the wrong term

I agree. What is termed "White privilege" is actually the status every citizen should have - of civility, fairness, full civil rights, and equal justice. It is the contrast with those who are treated unfairly and who are deprived of their rights that makes it seem as if Whites enjoy a "special privilege." There should be a better term for something like this, this thing that we all recognize as real and unfair. Calling it "privilege" suggests that we can make the playing field fair by removing the privilege, when it is the "disprivilege" (hat tip to "Jeebo&quot that must be removed. Our civil rights and just treatment should not be deemed a "privilege." We should work to see that everyone is accorded the same, rather than eliminating it. (Having said that, there IS such a thing as "privilege" that goes beyond the norm -- such as the privilege of the wealthy and powerful to be first in line, the privilege of a pretty young woman to avoid a speeding ticket, etc. THAT is not, however, what is meant by the term "White privilege&quot .

[ahlnord]

35. inappropriate and random emojis!

Apologies for the two winking emojis in my comment above. I have no idea how they popped up, but they have replaced what should have been a closed parentheses!

[Tommymac]

49. Believe the BBcode for wink is written ")

That is why.

You can edit the post to put a space between the " and the ) and it should fix it.

[StarfishSaver]

42. Why do some white people keep talking about "white privilege "as if it's a communications issue

It's not the responsibility of black people to come up with the perfect terminology that to resonate with white people to describe what's happening in this country. White people need to take some more responsibility for understanding the circumstances that we're all in and not rely on us to explain it to them - and then insist that we explain it to them in the exact perfect language that will resonate with them and if we don't, they walk away because they decided we did not pass their language test.

We keep going beyond the terminology and actually offering examples of what white privilege means - only to have white folk obsess over weather it should be called privilege or advantage or something else. Who cares what it's called? It exists, we've offered numerous examples of how it manifests itself, and we're still told we're not explaining it right.

In my experience, most white people know exactly what white privilege is. The problem is not the terminology - the problem is they don't want to deal with the concept, So they play ridiculous semantics games to buy time to continue to ignore what they know we're talking about.

This attitude and the acceptance of it by many whites who should know better - is another prime example of white privilege. And I think most people know it.

[panader0]

30. K and R!

[lunatica]

31. There it is!

Institutional racism explained!

[BobTheSubgenius]

33. My example is pretty simple, I think.

WP is easy to understand if you reflect on how certain you are that you will ultimately drive away unharmed from a traffic stop. That is NOT everyone's reality.

[Chitowncutie]

36. White Privilege

Spot on!

[KentuckyWoman]

45. Freedom Fries

I don't begrudge anyone their gymnastics. Who knows, maybe someone will be reached by it and that is a good thing. For me, I'll stick to calling it racism, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination and abuse when anyone is not treated with the basics of decency and respect.

[StarfishSaver]

46. Gymnastics?

You're talking about something different than the reality that white privilege describes.

[KentuckyWoman]

50. You might be right.

I assumed we were both condemning a world where people are roughed up and passed over simply for being black. I call that discrimination, racism, bigotry, prejudice and abuse. Removing those from society doesn't extend "privilege" to blacks. Being free to live one's life is not extra, a "privilege". It is a basic right that should be afforded to everyone.

If I did misunderstand, and you are saying I don't deserve what I consider to be the basics of decency and respect that I think should be afforded to everyone, then I apologize.

[StarfishSaver]

54. What you don't seem to understand

is that " being free to live one's life" is indeed a privilege in a society where everyone doesn't equally share that freedom.

And twisting that basic fact into a claim that someone is saying you don't deserve to be treated fairly, instead of trying to understand why being able to take something for granted as your due when it's not the norm for everyone is in itself an illustration of the privilege you seem intent on denying exists.

If we lived in a country where only white people were allowed to eat three meals a day, and everyone else was limited to one, the white people who chowed down on three squares a day would certainly be privileged, notwithstanding the fact that all human beings deserve to have sufficient nutrition. And pointing that out in no way suggests that the white people enjoying three meals a day don't deserve to have enough to eat.

[KentuckyWoman]

55. As I said, you might be right.

You've certainly stated your point of view quite well. I believe I understand you just fine but I do have a different point of view. Reading your post, I don't believe you understand my point of view in the least, and you've made it clear you don't believe I understand yours. Such a pity in that too.

I appreciate your attempt, and will leave this that I hope we both do everything in our power to further the cause of making sure every person has what is needed to live a healthy, happy life.

[happy feet]

82. Bingo!

[TigressDem]

74. Walking fine lines & debating what to call things is at times referred to as verbal gymnanastics.

Her labels are flat out descriptive of ways people are mistreated and she isn't offended at "white privilege" as much as simply wants to see a STOP put to discrimination, racism and bigotry.

People can call it what they like as long as we work together to stop it sounds like the point that was being made.

She stated a preference for a world where NO ONE would feel afraid at a traffic stop. She wants to pull the problem up by the root. Call it what you want, but she is ready to step up and do the work.

I guess what you are asking is that people can imagine walking a mile in your shoes and really empathize. Maybe so they actually get AT the root, because if you can't see it, how can you make it go away?

Anyway, that is what it looked like to me.

[mountain grammy]

53. K & R

[pansypoo53219]

57. i know my worries when pulled over by cops were pretty damn minor.

i bet the cop that stopped me doing 90 at night in indiana in a vintage olds. WHEW, it a petite white girl + her mom. ok,i just tried 100 to try it, unfortunately my car LOVED 100. i tried to stay at 80. oh i loved my 72 delta 88.

[TigressDem]

75. Yeah coompare that to the guy who fell asleep in a fast food drive through and got shot.

You obviously young and full of yourself driving 100 mph - did you even get a ticket? No offense, just asking.

And you probably weren't thinking the officer would pull you out and shoot you or rape you because, they don't do that, right? Cops are just doing their job. I blew it. Mom is going to be so pissed. Where will I get the money? Will my insurance go up? Am I grounded? For how long.



He was asleep in his car. BUT when they woke him up he resisted arrest.
WHY?
Did they say something to him?
Or was he afraid that no matter what he did, he'd be killed?

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/unarmed-black-man-shot-dead-by-atlanta-cops-in-wendys-drive-thru/

[pansypoo53219]

87. yes. i couldn't keep the ss queen victoria(blue brocade seats)under 90. pulled over doing 89.

+ stopping she overheated. no radiator reservoir(later jerry rigged). also killed my tires. BUT she passed the emissions test + even got better. also 100 meh. preferred speeding on twisty forest roads in my land yachts.

[spanone]

58. K&R...

[Permanut]

59. Word.

As we used to say about a hundred years ago when I was a young man.

[JI7]

60. I'm a non black minority

And even I can see there are areas where I have privilege compared to black people and maybe some other minorities.

This isn't difficult to understand at all.

The problem is people refusing to admit the truth.

[StarfishSaver]

61. Exactly

And, as usual, this attempt to explain and illustrate what white privilege is, has been met with attempts to hijack and distract with ridiculous lectures about how "privilege" isn't the right word and if Black people want whites to understand it, we need to come up with a better word to describe what we have illustrated very clearly, over and over.

[Hotler]

64. Well written but, at too high a grade level for the

ones that need this frame of thought the most. Once they hit the word empathy it's all lost and they have to reboot.

[spooky3]

65. This is an exercise that sometimes helps people understand:

[TigressDem]

76. Cool

I would not have been at the front of the pack.

I did have family, but I didn't always know we wouldn't have a little bit of month left over at the end of our money.

There were times extended family dropped stuff off so we would eat.

I didn't have tutors or private school.

No athletic ability either.

[Amaryllis]

88. I think I read on DU several years ago privilege is when you get stopped by a cop and your worry is

if you will get a ticket and your insurance will go up.

[wendyb-NC]

90. Well said

Thank you, for posting.

[Paladin]

92. Probably too profound for those who need to hear it the most. (nt)