The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

[Klaralven]

The incredible pictures of a depleted Lake Mead, on the California-Nevada border, illustrate the effects of drought brought on by climate change.

Later this year, the US government will almost certainly declare the first-ever water shortage along the Colorado River. Maps show more than a quarter of the US is in "exceptional drought," underscoring the scope of a decades-long dry-out.

Stories are popping up across the West of possible rationing, coming restrictions and looming standoffs between farmers and the government over the most precious natural resource.

Restrictions. States like Arizona and Nevada are almost guaranteed to have their water allotment from the Colorado River cut back, which through a complicated drought contingency tier system agreed to by states in 2019 will affect farmers first. But the warning signs are there for urban areas and surrounding states to conserve and evolve.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/19/politics/what-matters-climate-change-western-drought/index.html

Population should be restricted well below resource limits, or natural variation will do the job for us.

[flying_wahini]

1. Cut off the taps to all golf courses first. Then Nestle and all almonds groves.

[Lancero]

9. "Almonds use all the water!!!" is a myth propped up by the cattle industry.

https://www.businessinsider.com/real-villain-in-the-california-drought-isnt-almonds--its-red-meat-2015-4

[PortTack]

14. Yes..it's alfalfa that takes so much water

[WheelWalker]

42. Yes.

[Mr.Bill]

58. Anither dirty secret is winegrape vines on average

use one gallon of water per vine per day.

[hunter]

129. Industrial dairy farms are a big lobby in California.

These cows, living on great mounds of shit, are fed forage irrigated with cheap water.

When these cows stop producing unnatural amounts of milk they are turned into cheap hamburger.

Ranchers in California don't generally graze their cattle on irrigated land but then they sell them to the feed lots where the cows are stuffed with cheap grain grown on irrigated land to make them fat.

All in all, it's much more pleasant driving past the almond orchards than the dairy farms or feed lots, especially in hot humid weather when the air is still.

In our family we've been drinking soy milk for a long time. My wife is lactose intolerant and our children decided they liked mom's soy milk better than cow's milk in grade school.

Looking back I would have skipped the cow's milk entirely, but my mom and dad's grandparents and cousins were dairymen and ranchers who believed anyone who didn't eat beef or drink cows milk every day was malnourished. If a kid looked skinny they'd feed them 75/25 hamburger and glasses full of cream.

[USALiberal]

167. 6 years old story? Nt

[Mr.Bill]

38. The watering of Golf courses

is my standard for when we are really in trouble with water.

[Hekate]

85. Look for trucks irrigating with non-potable gray water, or signs on the property saying the same...

If you don’t see such signs, call the property manager/club manager/ whoever and ask what their practice is. If you don’t like the answers, call the water district and ask about their policies. Simultaneously, call your County Board of Supervisors or similar local political entity and prepare to make a public statement.

I never had to do that when I lived in Santa Barbara County because everyone was so acutely aware of water conservation. The University had signs here and there on the grass that it was being irrigated with non-potable water, ie gray water. So did the golf courses. Public properties in general. Private properties had usage restrictions.

I don’t know how it is in my current location because I haven’t been involved, but my relatives point to having their own local water source, to which I always think, “Yeah, sure.”

Anyway, my response wasn’t directed so much at you, but just to anyone who hasn’t thought through the mechanism for making change.

[Mr.Bill]

93. My post about golf courses was at least partly sarcasm.

But like all sarcasm, it had some truth to it. I formerly lived in an HOA community that had a golf course. Wae had a mutual water company serving about 2,000 meters, and we drew water from the largest natural lake in California. The golf course was watered with non-potable water from that water company. Basically, water that could be provided cheaper because it was lake water not fully treated. The course went out of business about ten years ago, mainly from lack of membership, but the cost of the water was part of it.

Having a dozen old guys play golf twice a week for $20 just didn't add up to a $30,000 water bill.

Unless you have access to very cheap or free water, a golf course is a money pit. Ours only survived as long as it did because of profits from a bar and restaurant. It got sold and much of it is now growing wine grapes or olives.

[hunter]

142. I'm not against golf. Two of my siblings are powerful golfers.

One was semi-pro for a time, an artist.

Golf would be a far more interesting game if golf courses were constrained by the local environment.

That's how the game started. It was a huge mistake to turn every golf course into an estate of highly manicured lawns.

After the Apocalypse I'm going to build a golf course in a ruined city. A great golfer will make a savage drive down Broadway only to land in a bomb crater filled with radioactive sand. Then an adequate shot, up into a rough irrigated by a busted fire hydrant. Watch out for the wolves! This is their water hole. A chip shot to a green made of synthetic turf scavenged from the local stadium. Long putt, PAR!

[marybourg]

46. The golf courses use reclaimed water.

[oldsoftie]

96. But couldnt that be treated into drinking water?

[marybourg]

108. Possibly some day.

[hunter]

141. It's already happening in my part of California .

Sewage is recycled into two grades of potable water, one to replace groundwater used in agriculture, distributed through purple pipes, and a higher grade purified by reverse osmosis, etc.. This highly purified water is better than the typical well water around here, with fewer total dissolved solids, and it tastes better too. It's stored in the same aquifers domestic water is drawn from.

Unfortunately for the golf courses, they can no longer pat themselves on the back for using treated sewage that would have otherwise been dumped into the ocean. Now everyone is using recycled water and treated sewage only makes it into the ocean when the capacity of the wastewater plant to store wastewater that's made it through secondary treatment has been exceeded.

In the bad old days sewage was dumped directly into the ocean, preferably using a long pipe into deeper waters. A lot of nastiness came back to the beaches, so they started putting the sewage through a primary treatment. Mostly this removed things like grease and larger solids. It was basically a filter.

That didn't solve the problem entirely, especially the biological problems, so secondary treatments were developed.

For many, many years this was the kind of treated sewage dumped into rivers and oceans throughout the U.S.A.

With some minimal further treatment water that made it through secondary treatment could be used on golf courses. This treated water probably wouldn't kill you if you fell into a golf course water trap or the sprinklers came on unexpectedly, but you wouldn't want to drink it.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

2. The most pressing infrastructure project is going to be soon publicly recognized

We need a huge canal (where that's even possible) and pipeline system to bring water from the northern states to the southwest. And I mean HUGE.

And there's going to be a big fight over it ... so we should be starting now.

[wryter2000]

4. This northern Californian says no

Let your lawns go first. It's not like we have extra here.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

11. Firstly, that general system already exists within the state

And I'm thinking further north (and wetter areas) than No Cal.

[Maru Kitteh]

45. This Montanan also says no. The SW needs to reimagine golf courses, end lawns

completely, work on massive recapture and stop ALL commercial animal agriculture as well as the production of all crops not intended for direct human consumption.

Come back and talk to us later when you've got all that done, Southwestern US. Montana will not be giving you our water so you can waste it on unsustainable, unnatural, indefensible pursuits.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

51. No argument from me WRT ending these practices ...

I also think there needs to be population limits set and all sorts of other changes. I'm not arguing for continuing profligate use, to be clear.

But it's going to take a decade plus to work it all out and probably a decade more to build the systems.

And I think these limits and changes we both agree on ... can be part of the negotiations.

This is why I think we should be starting the talks ... now. I don't think a 'change all your ways of life over the next 20 years and then we'll talk' is a practical solution. Then it's probably 30-40 years before water starts flowing? It would be too late by then.

[Maru Kitteh]

78. I think by the time all of that is done, it's substantially less likely that

large scale water rescue would be required. I'm admittedly unaware how advanced desalination has become, but I do remember hearing the Saudis were making it real.

I just don't see the North giving up our water, and you certainly won't get this state to consider it any time soon, that I can assure you.

[pnwmom]

164. If you're thinking Seattle, think again. We have droughts in the summer, and fires.

And the dry part of our state is even dryer.

[luv2fly]

6. Bring our northern water to the desert?

Why would northern folks allow such a thing? Of course there's going to be a fight.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

7. Ummm ... obviously the answer to that will be

$$$

Or at least, it's the only way it'll possibly ever happen.

[luv2fly]

10. Let's see genuine conservation efforts first

Not just in the southwest, but everywhere. If people can't do that, sharing makes a whole lot less sense no matter the price.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

13. Agreed, but it's going to take a LONG time to argue, iron out plans, and build the thing

It's obvious at this point IMHO that we are probably going to HAVE TO do this as a country.

I think we should start the process now.

Unless someone miraculously figures out a way to engineer some rainfall in the West with some weather manipulation ... which sounds pretty far-fetched but maybe not 100% impossible?

[femmedem]

56. I suspect the heat waves will make these areas uninhabitable

before the water infrastructure can be built.

Maybe we should be focusing instead on preparing for higher population density in cooler, wetter regions.

[TheRealNorth]

60. Snowbirds don't like snow....

Go figure.

And states like AZ and FL incentivize retirees to move there by not taxing SSI.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

75. That's possible, but there's a lot of AC in this state.

And for all but 4 months, the weather here is beautiful.

Maybe doing desalination in the West is a better solution than trying to move water from elsewhere, not sure. But that process is quite energy intensive. I think we'd need to be building 10-15 nuclear plants near the ocean to be able to get anywhere near the water that's needed. Instead, CA is in the process of shutting down the ONE it has.

What I'm mainly getting at is ... this is a frigging crisis and we better start planning for what we're going to do about it, as a country.

[femmedem]

91. Absolutely a crisis, yes.

I hope it is solvable by people who are smarter than I am. I live on the east coast, within ten miles of a coastal nuclear plant. The warming water it uses for cooling is, uh, not that cool anymore. In 2012 they had a shutdown because the water temperature was above 75 degrees. Two years later the Nuclear Regulatory Commission decided the power plant could use cooling water up to 80 degrees.

Some parts of the country are at the emergency stage of global warming. If the fires, heat and drought of this year and the last few years don't push us to action, I don't know what will.

Thanks for doing what you can to draw attention to it.

[we can do it]

20. Yep. No more damn lawns and golf courses.

[fierywoman]

23. This.

[smirkymonkey]

71. +1000

[Klaralven]

132. I never water my lawn. I don't put fertilizer on it. I don't put insecticides or weed killers on it.

Whatever grows, I mow. If it doesn't grow, I don't mow it.

[roamer65]

146. Even in water rich Michigan I refuse to water my lawn.

I try to kill it just about every way short of Roundup, but the minute it rains damn thing sprouts right back up.

I hate lawn mowing...with a passion.

[Mr.Bill]

40. Because much of your food is coming from that desert. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

47. Stop farming animals and food for those animals and there'll be enough water nt

[Mr.Bill]

55. That's a valid point,

but animals aren't the only thing we farm in California. If you want to know what else we farm here, do a little googling. The fact is, we grow just about everything that's in your grocery store here.

[yellowdogintexas]

92. and if California isn't growing it, Arizona and Texas are

Citrus along the TX border is a huge crop; many other crops are grown here as well.

Texas also brings in a lot of produce from Mexico, especially off season items.

[duhneece]

73. How about from flooding areas like Louisiana or eastern Texas?

They could use the reduced water and the west/southwest could use it.

[Klaralven]

8. Once the Oglalla Acqufer has been drained, the Northern States won't have any to spare.

It will be needed for irrigation in the plains states.

Besides, it's a long way up hill to the Southwest. The Rockies are in the way.

[Maru Kitteh]

48. Sorry. Not giving it to them either. So they can water corn for cows?

Screw that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. lol. No.

We need people to not decide to live in a desert.

[Luciferous]

36. This!!!

[Mr.Bill]

62. The best thing that could happen to California would be

for half of the people to leave. I lived here when there were half as many people as there are now, and it was just fine.

[Polly Hennessey]

90. Yes. I am always happy to read that

there is an exodus from California.

[Mr.Bill]

95. Problem is, there really isn't. n/t

[pnwmom]

165. Exactly. n/t

[EYESORE 9001]

28. Stick a straw in the Great Lakes and you've got a fight on your hands

Guerillas would ensure that pipeline remains undone.

[roamer65]

79. You got it.

Damn right. That pipeline would never run.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

94. Absolutely.

It's shocking that anyone who moved to a desert expected the water to keep flowing.

Meanwhile, places like Arizona are allowing Saudi Arabian mega farms to suck the water out of their deep aquifers.

[NEOBuckeye]

32. Nope.

You moved into the damn desert. You assume all the risks of living there. Northern states will not bail you out.

You had better move where there is more water. We will not move the water to you.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

44. You're assuming that the residents are the main issue, and would be leading the fight?

In Arizona, about 20% of water is for municipal use. Obviously it's not trivial but us idiots that moved to a damn desert are not the biggest users.

Agriculture and profitability/productivity of industries based in the West will be the main issue that moves the needle (if anything does), and the ones leading the fight (if there ever is one) will be corporations, with deep pockets.

Don't forget that California produces way more food than any other state.

Also, a very large majority of all US production of all these crops comes from California.



It's not just a matter of us Arizona dipshits wanting to water our desert lawns.

[Maru Kitteh]

59. So locate the fucking geniuses who think growing rice in California

is sustainable and slap the fuck out of them, then plow up their fields and tell them to grow sustainable food for humans.

I notice also that we've left out all the cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys and all the crops that are grown to feed them.


California hasn't made any truly meaningful efforts at mitigation. Start there. The north will not be bailing out the southwest as long as this is going on



And you're giving all your water to cows and pigs and their food.

[Hekate]

105. Maruh, we are the country's Salad Bar, & a miniscule number of people live in castles...

Crops include grapes, almonds, strawberries, oranges and walnuts. California produces almost all of the country's almonds, apricots, dates, figs, kiwi fruit, nectarines, olives, pistachios, prunes, and walnuts. It leads in the production of avocados, grapes, lemons, melons, peaches, plums, and strawberries.
california crops map

http://rice.ucanr.edu/About_California_Rice/
Commercial rice production began in California in 1912. Rice is grown on approximately 550,000 acres statewide. Rice production is concentrated in the Sacramento Valley, where about 95% of California rice is grown, with the balance grown in a few counties of the northern San Joaquin Valley. California rice production yields may exceed 10,000 lbs/acre, which is 20% above the U.S. average. Over 90% of the rice acreage in California is planted to medium grain varieties, with limited area planted to short and long grain varieties.

California is unique among the U.S. rice producing states in its geography, climate and environmental regulations. The growing season is characterized by a Mediterranean climate with negligible rainfall, high solar radiation, and relatively cold night-time temperatures. Because of its dry Mediterranean climate and northern latitude of 38–40°, California varieties and many of the agronomic practices are quite different from other rice production zones in the U.S. Additionally, California’s urbanized population demands that rice (and other crops) be produced with environmentally benign methods with no off-farm impacts. There is frequently conjunctive use of farmland for wildlife habitat and other purposes.

I’m not sure what you want. Rice doesn’t need paddies, and it IS “a sustainable food for humans.” The Sacramento Delta is — wait for it — a delta. Water, wetlands.

Just google, okay? Remember, Earth Day started here.

[Bobstandard]

117. Rice, almonds, and pistachios require..

Huge volumes of water. Most rice produced in California utilizes flood irrigation, ie, the fields are flooded with water to irrigate them. A huge amount is list to evaporation. Rice production began in a time of water abundance unlike now

Almonds and pistachios in modern production are watered via drip irrigation. Sounds good except that during the summer they must be drip irrigated 24/7. Also note that they can’t survive without irrigation, so you can’t just turn off the taps as you could with a crop like olives Finally, a large percentage of almond and pistachio crop is exported, another way of saying that the water used to produce them is exported

[Hekate]

121. To most of the folks in this thread, I recommend becoming Locavores...

Eat nothing not produced in your own county, and only what is in season in your immediate vicinity.

Enjoy. It’ll be good for you.

[Klaralven]

138. Apples, pears, cherries, peaches, peas, corn, squash, onions, green beans, lettuce, ....

Not all fruits and vegetables come from California.

[hunter]

143. Rice doesn't bother me at all. People eat rice.

Feed for the factory farm meat and dairy industry does.

[Beartracks]

64. It's like the popular notion that CONSUMERS can save the planet by recycling.

It's a definite plus to recycle, and it certainly keeps crap off our roadways and out of our landfills. But is THAT what's going to save the planet, by itself? Nope. INDUSTRY has to change its ways, NOT consumers.

=========

[TheRealNorth]

49. There are treaties protecting Great Lakes water....

To prevent the Great Lakes from becoming the next Aral Sea. There is such a thing as desalinization.

[eppur_se_muova]

61. NOT going to happen. There have been schemes floated to get water from as far away as ...

... Alaska & Canada. Not kidding. All a Hell of a lot more expensive and bad for the environment than just enforcing a rule that "you don't farm where there's not enough water"! Southern CA is, historically, classified as "semi-arid" and yet the US gov't was selling water at a huge loss to commercial farms there -- like a pusher keeping his addicts on the hook -- and the farms just kept expanding. Water subsidies need to be phased out, so that it's no longer profitable to farm in areas w/o adequate water. (There may have been some progress in this direction already -- I honestly haven't kept up.)


(Some interesting discussion on CA's water problem, with Reisner's "Cadillac Desert" being kind of the kicking-off point: http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/2015/07/if-you-read-two-books-about-the-wests-water-problems-one-of-them-probably-shouldnt-be-cadillac-desert/ )

[Chainfire]

68. If some massive water relocation project was built

Desert agriculture would just continue to grow until they used it up too. It is not a water problem, it is a human problem.

[eppur_se_muova]

112. Bingo. nt

[roamer65]

153. A problem of numbers, yes.

Nearly 8 billion to be exact.

[KPN]

102. We already did that. It's called

the Colorado River.

There was a book I read back in the early 80s — “How to Create a Water Crisis” if my memory serves me. This SW water crisis was and has been expected by the experts for decades.

Another good book even older: “The Limits to Growth”.

[hunter]

144. I've been twisted from my previous anti-nuclear activist existence.

I'd trade all the dams and canals for a few nuclear power plants.

City people can take their water from the sea.

[roamer65]

152. Just not a good idea to have them in major seismically active or tsunami areas.

Fukushima Dai’ichi.

[hunter]

158. Let's see, a 1960's technology nuclear plant that was hit by a Tsunami and killed fewer people...

... than any friendly neighborhood oil refinery.

Humans are really good at ignoring the dangers they are most familiar with.

Are you cooking with gas? That stuff kills people.

Automobiles are an absolute nightmare of death.

Our world reeks of industrial toxins that have a half life of forever. Unlike tritium.

The true horrors made evident by Fukushima and Chernobyl are that ordinary humans going about their daily lives are more damaging to the natural environment and more dangerous to one another than the worst sort of nuclear accident.

[roamer65]

159. One of the reasons San Onofre NGS was decommissioned was its susceptibility to tsunami.

Smart move.

[CrackityJones75]

151. No.

People need to stop trying to live in the desert.

It wasn’t meant for massive populations to live there.

[pnwmom]

163. You think the northern states have a lot of excess water? nt

[grantcart]

168. Never happen and will not work.

It was suggested before during the 70's drought and is the only issue that both parties in the area agree upon stopping, 100%.

It also doesn't solve the most pressing problem, the loss of forests. If the trend continues then the great forests of the West will turn into deserts.

[femmedem]

3. I've been thinking of the racist backlash to the Great Migration recently.

And thinking of the 1919 Red Summer race riots as Black Americans fled the terror and poverty of the Jim Crow south, looking for work in the industrial north.

As much as I want to believe that we'll successfully tamp down the open racism that exploded during the Trump years, I fear that climate change will spur--is already spurring--more xenophobia as people flee increasingly uninhabitable areas, whether the American west or other countries/other continents.

[erronis]

27. I concur. The xenophobia will become directed against any non-neighbors.

Right now it is nationality, race, ethnic group, and even some regional hatreds.

When the resources (water, etc.) get really tight, neighborhoods will be pitted against each other.

(I get a bit of joy out of thinking about one golf-course gated community fighting with another....)

[femmedem]

53. Exactly. (I hope we're wrong.)

Although I do think that minorities fleeing drought and heat-stricken areas will face the most hostility.

[IronLionZion]

126. They've already been destroying water for Native American tribes nt

[femmedem]

135. Heartbreaking; awful. nt

[luckone]

5. From the link 😳

The criteria they list for "exceptional drought" in California is not far from apocalyptic:
Fields are left fallow; orchards are removed; vegetable yields are low; honey harvest is small
Fire season is very costly; number of fires and area burned are extensive
Many recreational activities are affected
Fish rescue and relocation begins; pine beetle infestation occurs; forest mortality is high; wetlands dry up; survival of native plants and animals is low; fewer wildflowers bloom; wildlife death is widespread; algae blooms appear
Policy change; agriculture unemployment is high, food aid is needed
Poor air quality affects health; greenhouse gas emissions increase as hydropower production decreases; West Nile Virus outbreaks rise
Water shortages are widespread; surface water is depleted; federal irrigation water deliveries are extremely low; junior water rights are curtailed; water prices are extremely high; wells are dry, more and deeper wells are drilled; water quality is poor

[roamer65]

154. Sounds like a taste of last summer.

Being able to see the smoke in the sky in Michigan and also smell it was definitely nearing apocalyptic.

[Mr.Bill]

12. On conservative websites people in states like Texas and Florida

are terrified that Californians will move there and turn their states liberal. In fact, they say it's already happening. This amuses me. I usually tell them someday well move to their neighborhood and raise their propery values, too.

[PortTack]

15. Yes, it's the biggest reason Az is now blue..been going on for well over a decade

[Mr.Bill]

16. Texans talk like we're an invading army and

we've already taken Austin.

[roamer65]

87. Invade away!

Take Dallas as well!

[Mr.Bill]

97. Dallas is already pretty blue.

Just not as weird as Austin. And I mean weird in a good, fun way.

[roamer65]

100. I love those bumper stickers I see up here on occasion.

“Keep Austin weird.”

[Mr.Bill]

118. Yes, that's a great slogan.

I bet San Francisco is jealous they didn't think of it first.

[NEOBuckeye]

34. Fuck their goddamn conservatism

That shit is what caused this mess in the first place.

[jalan48]

17. THE biggest issue human's face is climate change.

[PortTack]

18. The states of the SW need to quit praying for water, doing absurd wasteful election audits and get

Serious about desalination. They should have started years ago!! This drought has been going on now for 2 decades! It’s not the whole answer, but newer techniques available are much more energy efficient. San Diego currently gets 47% of their water from desalination.

The largest portion of Israel’s water is from desalination. They now have a surplus and could actually sell water to other countries if they chose to.

[heckles65]

30. Yeah, but Israel is next to the Mediterranean and the Red Sea.

What body of water is Utah, Nevada and Arizona next to?

[AZLD4Candidate]

39. The 1922 Colorado Protocol needs to be reworked.

In 1920, there were 6 million people in seven states using water.

In 2020, there were 61 million people in seven state using the same amount of water.

The Protocol needs to be addressed and redone.

[AZLD4Candidate]

35. You and I are in complete agreement

I'll post my campaign plank on the problems we here in Arizona have and how I believe we can address it. After that, Arizona can start looking at water consumption by sector.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10389917

[oldsoftie]

109. I've been saying that for YEARS myself

Charge the farms for use. Hey, the ocean levels are rising, taking some out wouldnt hurt!

[roamer65]

19. If it takes secession to save the Great Lakes, so be it.

We need to strengthen the Great Lakes Compact to allow ZERO export of water from the aquifer.

NONE.

[NEOBuckeye]

37. People better move back to the GL Watershed

We are not giving up our water so that people can have lawns and golf courses in the fucking desert.

[roamer65]

41. Bingo.

[Klaralven]

70. Little of the Great Lakes Watershed is in the United States

With the exception of the state of Michigan, most of the area of Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania drains south through the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. Most of Canada drains north through Hudson's bay or via the Ottawa River directly into the St Lawrence River.

[roamer65]

76. The Great Lakes Compact involves the American states in the aquifer...

and the Canadian provinces in it as well.

There are communities in each of these states and provinces that are considered “borderline” and must observe specific rules when they divert from the lakes. They must put back exactly the amount the draw from the lakes. The rules are very specific and fines can be imposed.

The ONE loophole in the compact is water bottling plants. That loophole needs to be closed.

[Klaralven]

101. I thought that Chicago got it's water from Lake Michigan, discharged sewage down the Illinois River?

[roamer65]

107. The Chicago ship and sanitary canal is the one path from Lake Michigan to the MS River.

It’s flow is regulated and now with Asian carp is under increased scrutiny.

Illinois and Michigan have had a lot of litigation surrounding the canal and the Asian carp.

[Klaralven]

115. Google Street View gives a nice look at both the Des Plaines river and the CS&SC from I-355 bridge

Drove around Chicago via I-355 the last time I passed by.

[Treefrog]

88. Secession.

Riiigghht.

[roamer65]

89. Water is for fighting.

I am a Michigander first, American second.

The political firestorm in the Great Lakes region would be HUGE over any water diversion project.

[Duppers]

120. And understandably so! It's survival!

I live in Virginia but totally respect what you've said; anyone who cannot understand is an idiot, imo.

[roamer65]

145. The melting glaciers gave us a wonderful gift.

Last edited Sun Jun 20, 2021, 01:21 AM - Edit history (3)

I hope we don’t screw it up. Two weeks ago, I stood on the shore of Lake Superior and then put my feet into it. Clear, cool and beautiful.

But knowing humans, we will trash it. Everything we touch, dies.

That’s why so many hate Dump so much. He is a living embodiment of all the worst in the human species.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

156. That won't be necessary, but people around...

... the Great Lakes definitely won't let it be used in some faraway desert.

The lakes comprise 21% of all the freshwater in the world per the NOAA:
https://coast.noaa.gov/states/fast-facts/great-lakes.html

But people around here sure as hell aren't going to allow it to be squandered!

[roamer65]

157. The one small problem in the Great Lakes Compact is it allows export outside the aquifer...

in increments of less than 5.7 gallons.

In other words, plastic containers of 5.7 gallons or less.

I know in Michigan we have been trying to get that loophole closed, but it would take all of the states and Canadian provinces together to get it truly closed.

If just Michigan closes it statewide, scumbags like Nestle will just move to another compact state.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

160. Chicago already uses sizable amounts of GL water...

... such that most hydrologists aren't so concerned about bottled water companies just yet.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/sep/01/dennis-kucinich/dennis-kucinich-warns-loophole-great-lakes-compact/

And there already are some sizable diversions that predate the compact. The largest is in Chicago, where nearly 2.1 billion gallons a day are removed from the Great Lakes basin for water to Chicago suburbs that are outside the Great Lakes basin and to connect the Chicago River to the Mississippi via the Ship and Sanitary Canal. It opened in 1900.

That’s enough water to fill 13.4 billion 20-ounce bottles each day, every day.

Food & Water Watch, a non-profit organization based in Washington that promotes healthy food and affordable drinking water, estimates that the total amount of tap water and spring water bottled in PET plastic for sale in retail stores across the United States in 2009 amounted to about 5.2 billion gallons. That's for the entire year.

Kucinich is correct that the Great Lakes compact allows water to be removed in small containers. But experts appear skeptical that that "loophole" will have a serious impact.



It's the mega-farms that mostly concern me. They can use up water FAST! My advice to them is to move where the water exists, replenished with plenty of rain like in the Great Lakes region and other parts of the country.

[roamer65]

161. So far the lakes are very full.

So far...🤞.

How long that remains to be the case is anyone’s guess.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

162. And we should indeed fight to keep it that way...

... if the day comes that others try to frivolously use it!

[WarGamer]

22. Humans building maga cities in deserts, results not turning out well

News at 11

[erronis]

29. Concise analysis. And too many people living too long (says I, 70+++).

[Ferrets are Cool]

98. I only disagree with the living too long thing.

It's more like too many being born. jmo

[oldsoftie]

111. US birth rate is low. Our growth comes from immigration

[tiredtoo]

24. Bill Maher talked about this last night.

Seems almonds take an excessive amount of water to grow and produce the product. Stop growing almonds where there is no water. And send Nestle packing.

[Binkie The Clown]

26. Raising cattle takes more water than raising almonds.

https://www.businessinsider.com/real-villain-in-the-california-drought-isnt-almonds--its-red-meat-2015-4

[tiredtoo]

31. Yes I found your post after posting about Maher's statements.

So do we give up meat or almonds? Or both? Stop buying bottled water is a good start.

[Klaralven]

133. I've never understood why drinking water that's been standing around in plastic is a good idea?

[TheFarseer]

170. Went camping with extended family

last week. My immediate fam used reusable thermoses and kept filling them back up. The other fams used pallets of bottled water. We both had plenty of water on hikes but we saved a few bucks and didn’t throw away a ton of bottles.

[tiredtoo]

176. Great

Let's make this a way of life for all.

[Binkie The Clown]

25. Tug boats will be needed to move icebergs to Los Angeles. nt

[Beartracks]

67. Aside from not surviving the trip, icebergs are, unfortunately, not a renewable resource these days.

Or wait... Were you being silly, or serious?

===========

[Binkie The Clown]

127. Back in the 1970s there was an article in Popular Mechanics.

Large icebergs would survive the trip intact, and as more of the arctic glaciers melt, more and more icebergs will be formed. Global warming will increase the number of icebergs whether we harvest them or not.

https://www.whoi.edu/news-insights/content/can-icebergs-be-towed-to-water-starved-cities/

[AZLD4Candidate]

33. From my Campaign Website: Arizona's Water Problem

Reposted： I truly believe it is time to re-evaluate the 1922 Colorado Protocol. And I truly believe California should be taken off the Colorado River and be incentivized to go the De-sal route. Oceans don't run out of water.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10389917

[TheRealNorth]

63. I think that could help

But if CA residents are going to be required to obtain a more expensive water source, the other states should help subsidize the switch over to desalination in exchange for CA giving up its Colorado River water.

[AZLD4Candidate]

66. It needs to be put into a new Colorado Protocol.

I believe only Imperial County, Riverside County, and San Bernardino County should get it (if it already does).

But all seven states need to work to get California COMPLETELY off the Colorado River, and Congress should be involved as well.

Subsidize de-sal for CA. If there is a surplus, they can sell it to desert states that border them (NV and AZ)

[hunter]

43. I figure Lake Mead will eventually become the terminus of the Colorado River.

Upstream users, all the way from Las Vegas Nevada to Grand Junction Colorado would contribute to desalination plants for existing downstream users -- from the Southern California coast, east to Phoenix and Tuscon, and south to Mexico.

In exchange these upstream users would get Colorado River water downstream users are currently entitled to.

This desalinated water would be too expensive for anything but interior domestic use but a certain amount of less expensive water will be available as recycled sewage and water captured by the near-empty reservoir system during increasingly rare wet years.

There are several ways to accomplish this but all would be major infrastructure projects, some with large environmental impacts.

It would be insane to use natural gas to power these desalinization plants since fossil fuels are the root cause of the problem.

These schemes might be less costly, overall, than relocating entire cities. There's going to be quite enough relocation trauma as the oceans rise and sea-level cities are inundated..

In the grandest schemes nuclear energy would be used to desalinate sea water and to extract carbon dioxide which would then be sequestered as minerals and construction materials. Basins such as the Salton Sea and Mexico's Laguna Saluda could be stabilized, and Califonia's Owens Lake restored. (DU's NNadir has talked about this...)

The problem with wind and solar energy is that it's not consistent and it's only affordable in combination with cheap natural gas. Typically natural gas ends up supplying about half the power in these hybrid systems. These hybrid systems will not save the world and could actually make things much worse as they increase our long term commitment to natural gas extraction.

[TheRealNorth]

50. Couldn't solar energy be used to run the desalination plants?

[roamer65]

65. Yes. Desalination could be run at peak solar energy windows.

[hunter]

82. Solar energy isn't available when the sun's not shining.

That leaves you with an expensive desalinization plant that's doing nothing most of the time.

Some sort of energy storage increases the cost of the desalinization plant.

Existing desalinization plants are designed to run continuously. Designing a plant that can be run intermittently, on and off each day and as clouds block the sun, isn't a trivial engineering challenge. Such a plant would cost more to build as well.

In any case it takes a lot of energy to desalinate sea water, currently about 3 kilowatt hours per cubic meter of water (about 264 gallons). The theoretical minimum is about a kilowatt hour per cubic meter, and some modern designs are getting around 2.

The desalinization plant in Carlsbad California is advertises water at "half a penny per gallon." That's considerably more than most users in Southern California pay for their water.

[roamer65]

84. Wind and solar in tandem.

Possibly a nuclear plant as backup.

[Kaleva]

166. Saudi Arabia is testing a solar dome desalinization plant on an industrial scale

https://wired.me/science/environment/desalination-solar-dome-saudi-arabia-neom/

[roamer65]

57. If people want a Lake Mead, there may be only one choice.

Wind and solar power powered pumping of seawater into the reservoir. Then desalination of the water for LV and continued hydroelectric generation.

The filling of Lake Mead with seawater would allow Glen Canyon Dam to reduce its flow and Lake Powell to refill.

[hunter]

99. There are good reasons not to pump sea water inland.

Most of all you don't want to contaminate existing fresh water aquifers.

A break in a pipe carrying seawater across farmland could make the land unusable. A slow leak of seawater that went undetected for a long time might even be worse than a catastrophic failure.

[roamer65]

103. Very true.

Or a major earthquake in CA.

The other alternative is to let Mead run dry.

[oldsoftie]

114. It would also poison freshwater fish downstream

Its a terrible idea.
Pipe in water, sure, but make sure its desalinated water first

[roamer65]

147. Then the choice may be Lake Mead or Lake Powell.

Take ur pick.

I think it would be best to start draining Lake Powell and decommission Glen Canyon Dam.

I don’t think the system can sustain 2 reservoirs anymore.

https://www.glencanyon.org/fill-mead-first/

[hunter]

171. That's a great article.

Glen Canyon Dam was always a bad idea and plenty of people said so before it was built.

[roamer65]

155. PG&E may have to delay the mothballing of Diablo Canyon.

It may need to be used solely for desalination of ocean water.

[Ohioboy]

52. This is a good reason Not to build the XL extension pipeline

It would be the dumbest thing in the world to allow any more water to be put in danger because of a pipeline. Tell that to your republican friends.

[Klaralven]

134. That's the muddy Missouri River "Too thick to swim in; too thin to plow"

[ashredux]

54. This is just the beginning ... it actually is "the end of the world as we know it"

[Duppers]

122. Indeed.

[roamer65]

69. NAWAPA.

Get ready for this idea to be revived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance

[Klaralven]

72. Everybody now pretty much hates the US Army Corps of Engineers.

[Disaffected]

80. Notice from Canada:

Fugetaboutit. Western Canada is experiencing drought as well. Any water from the north goes here.

[roamer65]

83. I hear ya and agree with ya.

I just remember this plan from days gone by and expect some westerners and Texans to start chirping about it again.

[Disaffected]

125. Understood.

Come to think of it, I would be surprised to even see any significant movement of water from northern Canada to southern (to the southern plains that is). Reasons similar to those opposed to water movement in the US...

[dianaredwing]

74. Anyone who has not yet read

Leslie Marmon Silko's Almanac of the Dead should do so immediately to see the interconnectedness of all the issues we face today. A member of the Laguna Pueblo she understands the concept of the Earth as a living entity and in this extremely entertaining novel weaves these issues together in a way that is not only fascinating but also horrifying. We need to realign outselves with the natural world or everything goes to hell, quite literally.

[Ponietz]

113. +++ Silko and dianaredwing are pointing to the only sane way forward

[Gilbert Moore]

77. 60,000 gallons

Palo Verde Nuclear Plant uses water to cool the tremendous heat/steam the make to generate electricity.

Due to its location in the Arizona desert, Palo Verde is the only nuclear generating facility in the world that is not located adjacent to a large body of above-ground water.

*** "In the winter, we can use up to 40,000 gallons per minute, and that makes up for the evaporation rate of the cooling towers at the nuclear plant. In the summer it's more, it's up to 60,000 gallons per minute," said Rick Lange, the plant manager of Palo Verde Water Resources.

60,000 gallons. That's by the minute. Only 40,000 in the cooler months.

Give that some thought !

*** https://patch.com/arizona/phoenix/why-palo-verde-country-s-largest-nuclear-plant-cutting-its-water-use

[Klaralven]

110. 60000 gallons is a cubic tank of water about 6.1 meters on an edge.

When you see large numbers of gallons, it's a little deceptive because people don't have an intuitive idea how big it really is.

[hunter]

124. Compare that to losses from Lake Mead...

Evaporative loss estimates for Lake Mead range from about 600,000 acre-feet to as much as 875,000 acre-feet annually. One acre-foot is enough water to supply two average Las Vegas Valley homes for just over a year.

https://bouldercityreview.com/news/researchers-study-true-scale-of-evaporation-at-lakes-mead-powell-51822/

Roughly, that's about ten time more water than the Palo Verde Nuclear plant evaporates.

Lowering Lake Mead and Lake Powell to minimal levels and making up for the lost power by additions to the Palo Verde plant could potentially save a lot of water.

Modern high temperature nuclear power plant designs could be air cooled, even in the desert. Some natural gas power plants in California are already built that way. When water is scarce they switch to air cooing. It's less efficient than evaporative cooling but it saves water.

[roamer65]

149. It also time to consider draining Lake Powell.

Glen Canyon Dam can remain in use mainly as a flood control device.

[Ferrets are Cool]

81. Ya think food prices are high now? Wait until there is NO food because of water shortages.

It's scary to think of this scenario. The rich will be the only ones able to buy food. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but it could happen.

[Klaralven]

116. By 2100, the most sought after resource will be naturally watered arable land

[Ferrets are Cool]

130. Maybe before that.

Bottom line is too many people for the resources we have.

[Klaralven]

137. Bill Gates: America's Top Farmland Owner

https://landreport.com/2021/01/bill-gates-americas-top-farmland-owner/

[Ferrets are Cool]

139. Yeah, I saw that.

Not sure what to make of it.

[roamer65]

86. "Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting."

This thread reminds me of that old saying.

[former9thward]

104. Alarmist post and not factual.

People from the east have been saying this stuff for decades and there is still plenty of water. AZ has 3 trillion gallons of water stored and the state sits on a huge underground lake. I would love to see population restricted but that has nothing to do with water.

[Bobstandard]

119. Then there's no problem, right?

I gather you’re saying it won’t matter when Arizona no longer receives Colorado river water. Good to know.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

123. 3 trillion gallons isn't much at all...

... for mega farms, as Saudi Arabia demonstrated.

Saudi Arabia squandered its groundwater and agriculture collapsed. California, take note.
https://www.vox.com/2015/9/14/9323379/saudi-arabia-squandered-its-groundwater-and-agriculture-collapsed

Over at Reveal News, Nathan Halverson has a terrific piece on how Saudi Arabia squandered its groundwater supplies in just a few short decades. Back in the 1970s, the government allowed landowners to dig as many wells as they desired, in order to transform the desert into lush farmland. An agricultural boom followed, and Saudi Arabia improbably became the world's sixth-largest exporter of wheat.

"By the 1990s, farmers were pumping an average of 5 trillion gallons a year," Halverson writes. "At that rate, it would take just 25 years to completely drain Lake Erie." The problem was that Saudi Arabia doesn't get nearly enough annual rainfall to replace those withdrawals. Its aquifers had built up over tens of thousands of years and were now being drained all at once.



And now those farming companies, after the Saudi government cut them off, are using the water from Arizona's aquifers.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

175. Megafarms and deeper wells are draining the water beneath rural Arizona - quietly, irreversibly

Arizona’s groundwater levels are plummeting in many areas. The problem is especially severe in unregulated rural areas where there are no limits on pumping. The water levels in more than 2,000 wells have dropped more than 100 feet since they were first drilled. The number of newly constructed wells is accelerating, and wells are being drilled deeper and hitting water at lower levels.

This free-for-all is draining away the water that homeowners also depend on, leaving some with dry wells.

As the groundwater is depleted, Arizona is suffering permanent losses that may not be recouped for thousands of years. These underground reserves that were laid down over millennia represent the only water that many rural communities can count on as the desert Southwest becomes hotter and drier with climate change.

Unfettered pumping has taken a toll on the state’s aquifers for many years, but just as experts are calling for Arizona to develop plans to save its ancient underground water, pumping is accelerating and the problems are getting much worse.

https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-environment/2019/12/05/unregulated-pumping-arizona-groundwater-dry-wells/2425078001/

I hike in AZ riparian areas frequently. Springs and lakes are dry. Creeks and rivers at very low levels. Seasonal creeks that are usually torrents in spring were trickles this year. Basins that are dependent on rainfall got no rain to speak of.

The OP is not alarmist.

[former9thward]

179. The title is "The American West" yet the only states mentioned are AZ and NV.

In reality CA is the real problem with much higher water needs for population and agriculture than AZ. And if you think there is a problem then what is your solution? Stop sending food produced in AZ to the East? That would solve any water problems overnight.

[jpak]

106. Pipe it in from the Mississippi River south of New Orleans

It's full of ag nutrients and pesticides

No need to apply them locally

Yup

[Crunchy Frog]

128. Get rid of grassy lawns, golf courses, personal swimming pools.

Stop wasting water on maintaining all that unnecessary shit. Then maybe consider moving to crops that are less water intensive.

People need to stop being stupid and willfully profligate.

[Mr.Bill]

131. Another possible solution is more water storage for the years we do have a lot of rain.

It's interesting no one talks about this and it's actually happening. Work is scheduled to begin next year on a new huge reservoir in Northern California:

https://norcalwater.org/efficient-water-management/sites-reservoir/

[hunter]

150. And like all the other reservoirs in California...

... we can pray for the rain to keep it filled.

I see lots of signs in California's Central Valley asking for that.

[Mr.Bill]

174. I've lived here for 60 years

and I've never seen more than a few years go by without having a year where there is so much rain it causes flooding.

[hunter]

177. I don't have any overt hostility to the project, but I think you've hit on the problem.

I was born in California more than sixty years ago and have lived here most of my life.

The climate has changed in the last sixty years. I've witnessed it myself. In this time of global warming I don't think we can model the future climate on the past.

If the frequency of multi-year droughts increases then the Sites project will be less useful.

This mirrors the situation on the Colorado River where there simply hasn't been enough water to fill Lake Mead and Lake Powell for twenty years now. This system now catches the entirety of upstream floodwaters yet downstream users are still facing severe water shortages.

[Mr.Bill]

178. I think the development of Las Vegas over the last 50 years

might have something to do with that. It's as much of a demand problem as a supply problem. The population of California has also doubled in the last 60 years.

[NickB79]

136. No one has mentioned how the higher temps are juicing evaporation rates

Even a return to a 20th century average rainfall pattern won't break the drought if temperatures remains elevated at several degrees above normal.

And higher temps are locked in for millennia to come at 420 ppm and rising. This summer's temps are a glimpse to what normal summers will be soon.

[roamer65]

140. Adding in the effect of other GHG's like methane, CFC's, HFC's, etc.

I read we are near a combined effect of near 500ppm CO2 now.

Those other gases are many times more efficient than CO2.

[roamer65]

148. I think these folks are right.

https://www.glencanyon.org/fill-mead-first/

[VGNonly]

169. "Lake Foul"

should never have been built. John Wesley Powell knew that the American SW could not support water supplies.

[Klaralven]

173. Glen Canyon Dam - How do you propose to supply Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah?

Since first filling to capacity in 1980, Lake Powell water levels have fluctuated greatly depending on water demand and annual runoff. Operation of Glen Canyon Dam helps ensure an equitable distribution of water between the states of the Upper Colorado River Basin (Colorado, Wyoming, and most of New Mexico and Utah) and the Lower Basin (California, Nevada and most of Arizona).[7] During years of drought, Glen Canyon guarantees a water delivery to the Lower Basin states, without the need for rationing in the Upper Basin. In wet years, it captures extra runoff for future use.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Canyon_Dam

[Owl]

172. Irrigating desert is a model that no longer works.