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Jeff Tiedrich has a message about Critical Race Theory (Original Post) StarfishSaver Jun 2021 OP
Recommended. H2O Man Jun 2021 #1
I like this one, too: CrispyQ Jun 2021 #2
Ha ha StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #3
That's good! yardwork Jun 2021 #10
+1 BobTheSubgenius Jun 2021 #28
I can already see the responses. Caliman73 Jun 2021 #4
He's almost always right Bettie Jun 2021 #5
Tiedrich knows better JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #6
You parrotted the right wing talking point just like Heritage Foundation framed it StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #8
No, I don't think I will JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #9
Yes, you are mischaracterizing it StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #11
I see what's happening here JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #12
Gotcha StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #13
Phew... JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #15
How does calling out racists for calling CRT "Marxist" concede ground to them? StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #17
"Marxist" and "Marxism" aren't dirty words... druidity33 Jun 2021 #23
Aaaand... there it is FBaggins Jun 2021 #24
It may very well be HF's argument... but it's still a problem FBaggins Jun 2021 #18
Critical Race Theory has been around for more than 40 years StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #19
I'm well aware FBaggins Jun 2021 #21
That's an awful lot of extra steps between CRT and Marxism. Beastly Boy Jun 2021 #14
Erm...I'd like to see your work on this claim JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #16
Ok, if you insist... Beastly Boy Jun 2021 #20
And Marx has been dead longer than that JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #22
Incorrect. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2021 #29
It's funny you bring up Unger JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #30
Okay... Act_of_Reparation Jun 2021 #32
That's fair n/t JackintheGreen Jun 2021 #33
K&R ck4829 Jun 2021 #7
New wrinkle.. Permanut Jun 2021 #25
Nothing new there FBaggins Jun 2021 #26
The "we can't erase history" folks IronLionZion Jun 2021 #27
Just like they whine about 'Cancel Culture' The Mouth Jun 2021 #31

Caliman73

(11,690 posts)
4. I can already see the responses.
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 12:27 PM
Jun 2021

Right wingers accusing Tiedrich of trying to "silence" them or shame them because he "doesn't want to hear the truth".

If I want to debate and debunk Einstein's Theory of General Relativity and I don't understand basic concepts in Physics, then I need to shut the fuck up and learn rather than try to put my stupid opinion out there against scholarly ideas derived by research and supported by evidence.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
6. Tiedrich knows better
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 12:40 PM
Jun 2021

CRT developed out of critical theory which was developed out of the Frankfurt School which was decidedly Marxist in orientation.

That said, his rule of thumb is sadly correct. And since I mentioned Marxism, I guess suppose I should sit the fuck down.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
8. You parrotted the right wing talking point just like Heritage Foundation framed it
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 12:43 PM
Jun 2021

Nicely done - if your purpose is to mischaracterize and mislead, that is.

Perhaps you should take your advice.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
9. No, I don't think I will
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 01:10 PM
Jun 2021

Your response is so untethered from the history of social theory. While Derrick Bell, for one, may have disavowed any direct genealogy, referencing instead the likes of DuBois and Bunche, Crenshaw is quite specific in her description of CRT being a response to critical legal studies, which had unapologetically Marxist theorists (among other strains). American CRT, specifically, was more rooted in American thinkers (see Bell’s disavowal), but many of the thinkers Bell cites as his influences were themselves immersed in Marxism: Bayard Rustin, Du Bois, Richard Wright, etc. Non-theorist contemporaries in the 70s, too, we’re deeply influenced by Marxist thought (for example, Amiri Baraka née Leroi Jones).

Do let me know if I am mischaracterizing.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
11. Yes, you are mischaracterizing it
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 01:43 PM
Jun 2021

And we both know it.

Among other things, the fact that some CR theorists identified great thinkers who were Communists or Marxists as among the many people who influenced their scholarship does not mean that CRT "developed out of critical theory which was developed out of the Frankfurt School which was decidedly Marxist in orientation," by which you clearly meant to imply - as the Heritage Foundation, Ted Cruz and their ilk do - that Critical Race Theory is direct related to Marxism.

Throwing around a supposedly erudite explanation of the "connection" between CRT and Marxism wrapped in academic sounding terms, as Ted Cruz has been doing the past few days (in language very similar to that your post) might fool some people, but I see right through it.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
12. I see what's happening here
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 01:57 PM
Jun 2021

We’re talking past each other, and it’s my fault.

By drawing the line “crt developed out of critical theory…etc” you assumed I was drawing a straight line from Marx to crt via the Frankfurt school. I was not, and I was undone by poor word choice. However, it is absurd to argue that the lines of theory and practice developed by critical law studies and crt - to say nothing of civil right activism - were not influenced by (later) Marxist critiques. The “supposedly erudite explanation” you complain about above is also called “history,” or rather a description of things that happened and for which we have clear and ample evidence of. Read Bell. Read Crenshaw. Read Delgado. Hell, read Wright, DuBois, and Bunche.

Ok, that was needlessly snarky.

But we can at least agree that Cruz and his ilk are all twats. Just because they misuse and mischaracterize things that actually happened (or thinkers who influenced other thinkers) doesn’t mean they didn’t.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
13. Gotcha
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 02:28 PM
Jun 2021

But considering most academics in the social sciences or liberal arts has likely been influenced to some degree by great thinkers who were at some point in their lives Marxists or Communists, injecting "Marxism" into any discussion of Critical Race Theory - especially when done by racists like Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson - has only one purpose: to mischaracterize it as something it is not and to convince uniformed people that it's something foreign, suspect and dangerous instead of an honest attempt to present a more honest and accurate version of American history, law, society, and culture.

And yes, that was snarky. I've not only read all of those scholars and taught their readings in my own classes, I studied under one of them, and have known some of them personally, including two who are/were close personal friends.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
15. Phew...
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 03:24 PM
Jun 2021

I also teach those scholars in my classes, though I have not studied under any of them. My field is postcolonialism, which undoubtedly shades my perception to see echoes of Marxism everywhere. Which I still maintain they are. But we agree that the *use* of the Marxist bogeyman by racists is as you describe. But my belief is that we cannot concede this ground to them. I am not a Marxist, but I understand the appeal of Marxist theory and see it’s utility in doing what theory does. The right cannot be allowed to colonize the terms Marxist/Marxism and evacuate them of their meaning, lest scholars lose useful tools. This is why tweets like Tiedrich’s annoy me. He’s not wrong (as I said in my first response), but he concedes ground to racists and other useful idiots that harms theory.

druidity33

(6,435 posts)
23. "Marxist" and "Marxism" aren't dirty words...
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 05:31 PM
Jun 2021

and Marxist theory in particular isn't "Bad". I think that was what the "ceding ground" comment was about maybe?



FBaggins

(26,693 posts)
24. Aaaand... there it is
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 07:09 PM
Jun 2021

There's no question that many on the right will use the label as a kudgel to beat Democrats over the head...

The problem is that there are plenty of Democrats who would explicitly reject Marxism ( ) but see worthwhile aspects of CRT (or at least aspects that some associate with CRT) that they don't want thrown out with the bath water... while there are simultaneously some on the farther left end of the spectrum who will happily say "yeah... it's Marxism and there isn't a problem with that".

As long as the second group exists - we can't just argue about the use of the label.

Same thing with "defund". Plenty of Democrats had entirely rational theories on what they meant when they said it... but we had little success in getting the public to accept that framing when the right could just pull up a video of a crowd booing the mayor of Minneapolis when he simply wouldn't commit to getting rid of all police.

FBaggins

(26,693 posts)
18. It may very well be HF's argument... but it's still a problem
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 03:32 PM
Jun 2021

Just like there were plenty on the left who (correctly) saw "defund the police" as something very different from how HF might use it... there were also plenty on the left who meant it exactly that way - and a tweet like Tiedrich's (but in reference to "defund&quot wasn't persuasive enough leading up to the election. IOW, the HF line "sold well" politically.

I'm not very familiar with CRT beyond the book by that name (which I did not finish)... but unless a bright line can be drawn between "critical race theory" and "critical theory", Tiedrich's position will be a tough sell. Because there's no way to discuss critical theory without recognizing neo-marxist philosophical roots.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
19. Critical Race Theory has been around for more than 40 years
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 03:49 PM
Jun 2021

And it's not the only area of Critical Theory that is taught and studied.

The problem for the right wing - and obviously some on the left - is not critical theory but race, period. This attack is just another attempt to shut Black voices up, advance the notions of white victimization and distract from and derail attempts to address systemic racism in America.

It's really sad that you not only bought this BS but are trying to sell it.

FBaggins

(26,693 posts)
21. I'm well aware
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 04:32 PM
Jun 2021

I'm equally aware that the primary text explicitly credits historical French marxist philosophers like Antonio Gramsci. It isn't buying OR selling BS to accept that.

Now... tying any particular political philosophy that has marxist roots as somehow tantamount to Mao or Cambodia or whatever... that would be well off base.

But this is like the defund the police argument I pointed out above. If there are actually people in the streets saying that it's exactly what they meant... it's hard to spin away from. If we want to say "you don't understand CRT"... that's one thing. But we can't say "it's entirely unrelated to Marxism" when philosophy dictionaries significantly predating the current debate explicitly label the Franfurt school that way. IOW... it's fine to call the label a political dog whistle that is misused... but not that it doesn't actually apply.

The problem for the right wing - and obviously some on the left - is not critical theory but race, period.

Then perhaps your response to my unless a bright line can be drawn between "critical race theory" and "critical theory" should have been that there is a difference?

Beastly Boy

(9,056 posts)
14. That's an awful lot of extra steps between CRT and Marxism.
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 02:58 PM
Jun 2021

Perhaps we should also mention that Marx was influenced by Adam Smith who was influenced by John Locke, who was the founder of classical liberalism, which in turn is at the foundation of market capitalism. So i guess CRT at its core is all about market capitalism,

It is also worth mentioning that the social theory developed by the Frankfurt School turns out to not be Marxist at all, and that critical theory is not defined by the Frankfurt School, and Critical Race Theory is one of many applications of critical theory out there, each pursuing different areas of research that are not necessarily connected.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
16. Erm...I'd like to see your work on this claim
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 03:30 PM
Jun 2021
It is also worth mentioning that the social theory developed by the Frankfurt School turns out to not be Marxist at all, and that critical theory is not defined by the Frankfurt School


The Institute for Social Research was endowed explicitly by Felix Weil to develop the study of Marxism in Germany, and the nazis closed it ten years later for pretty much the same reason.

I accept everything else in that sentence. It’s the other side of the same coin I was so inelegantly trying to describe.

Beastly Boy

(9,056 posts)
20. Ok, if you insist...
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 04:30 PM
Jun 2021

Last edited Wed Jun 23, 2021, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

The Frankfurt School is known to be critical of Marxism because they considered it to be too incomplete and inflexible to address the socio-economic issues of interest to the Frankfurt School. For this reason, they did not limit themselves to the application of Marx's dialectic materialism, as any self-respecting Marxist would, and instead focused on a critical approach to analyze the macro (at least as it applies to Europe) social and economic developments.

I guess Mr Weil didn't get his money's worth. And I would challenge your assumption that Hitler shut down the Frankfurt School because they were Marxist. Maybe it was because many of them were Jewish. Or gay. Or just resisting his own warped world outlook. Or influential. Or not nazi and influential. Or better looking. Take your pick!

On edit: forgot to address the Frankfurt School not defining critical theory. This is simple: Frankfurt School has been out of business for nearly a century, but critical theory is still being used by a multitude of scholars in many fields. They are the ones who define critical theory.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
22. And Marx has been dead longer than that
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 05:25 PM
Jun 2021

But people still credit him for Marxism. Functionalism expanded beyond Durkheim. Linguistic Structuralism developed beyond Saussure and Jakobson, even being adapted into completely new fields. Funny how that works.

(Your point about Judaism and/or homosexuality and/or whatever is well taken. But they hated marxists, too!)

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
29. Incorrect.
Thu Jun 24, 2021, 11:01 AM
Jun 2021

Marxism is a modernist philosophy. CLS is postmodern.

Also, it was largely developed under Roberto Unger, an anti-Marxist leftist.

JackintheGreen

(2,036 posts)
30. It's funny you bring up Unger
Thu Jun 24, 2021, 12:11 PM
Jun 2021

Who was roundly criticized as ahistorical and unscholarly by William Ewald in YLJ more than thirty years ago.

You’ve also missed one of the repeated strands of this thread, namely that theories are not beholden to their originator. Even if the postmodern strand of CLS was developed under Unger (and this is leaving aside for now the absolutely Marxist strains of CLS, particularly in Britain), the field is bound to change, expand, retrench, etc. — exactly the phenomenon that got me into trouble by claiming CRT has some Marxist underpinnings, or even more remotely, that the Frankfurt School was Marxist.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
32. Okay...
Thu Jun 24, 2021, 03:04 PM
Jun 2021

I mean, I'm not arguing that CRT or CLS are going to be anti-Marxist in perpetuity. But right here, in the time and space we occupy, CRT is not a Marxist school of thought. Not even superficially. Are Marxists going to find CRT interesting? Perhaps. But when they get to the part where racism isn't exactly the product of class warfare and can't simply be solved with a classless society, they might consider seeking gratification elsewhere... or maybe not being Marxists anymore.

Permanut

(5,436 posts)
25. New wrinkle..
Wed Jun 23, 2021, 07:59 PM
Jun 2021

heard today on Bible thumper Trump cult talk radio, that "wokism" is actually a religion. We get a new twist of talking points every day.

The Mouth

(3,122 posts)
31. Just like they whine about 'Cancel Culture'
Thu Jun 24, 2021, 01:46 PM
Jun 2021

But are the first and worst to cancel anything that contradicts their tiny little 19th century worlview.

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