Wuhan lab leak?

[cilla4progress]

This story is confounding to me!

Link to tweet

?s=19

[lagomorph777]

1. No matter how hard this story is pushed, it does not exonerate Trump.

Whatever the source, Trump is the one who weaponized COVID-19. He committed genocide for hire.

Curious to see DUers pushing this crap.

[underpants]

4. Outside of the science world that is the only reason this gets attention

As you point out his tragic utter failure will never be changed. If it turns out to have been from the lab that offers no excuse for his race baiting “China virus” which has to have had a part in attacks on Asian Americans.

[Pobeka]

6. +1 nt

[Chainfire]

7. I couldn't agree with you more.

Trump had a chance to reduce the impact on the United States and he blew it worrying about his reelection. He thought he could just wish it away, intimidate it away, or ignore it away and it came back to bite him in the ass in November 3. Trump's inaction and wrong actions caused the deaths of perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans regardless of the source of the illness.

[Caliman73]

11. True. He would likely have won, even with 2 impeachments.

Had it not been for COVID-19 and his complete failure, he would most likely have been re-elected.

He blames everything but himself for his loss, but the reality is that if he would have been even a little bit competent, he would have won. It is tragic that we had to lose 600,000 Americans to prove what a scumbag failure Trump is.

[lagomorph777]

22. He competently killed people; that was no failure.

What he failed at, was understanding what the inevitable result would be. People became furious at him, and realized he would kill any of us for a Rouble.

[uponit7771]

16. +1, ... and that's the reason its being pushed too !!

[secondwind]

20. Trump fired the US scientists in Wuhan lab, he ordered everyone out.

Trump is responsible for our pandemic. No doubt about it.

[fescuerescue]

24. Trump may very well have ordered the creation of Covid 19

Can't rule that out.

[lagomorph777]

26. It did seem like he started laying the groundwork well before the pandemic.

Way too many "coincidences".

Fired our Wuhan scientists.
Disbanded the pandemic response team.
Crippled CDC.
etc...

[malaise]

25. Great post

applause:

[JI7]

44. It makes what Trump did even Worse . Because he denied it existed and it would just go away

[Turbineguy]

2. It's a good article.

And it makes a lot of sense.

[LifeLongDemocratic]

3. This stuff only happens under Republican presidents

Just like 911, this would not have occurred if Hilary or Bernie were President. Democratic Presidents protect us, Republican Presidents allow things to occur that hurt us. When will people ever learn.

[uponit7771]

17. +1, ... every republican president I've voted against has had a war, national disasters or world ...

... wide catastrophe that can be attributed straight to their actions or inactions.

That's one of the reasons I don't think GQP should be in office any longer; they can't lead shit

[Pobeka]

5. I'm not sure why this is confounding?

Seems to be a clearly laid out reasoning of a scientist who was at the Wuhan lab in late 2019 why it's very unlikely that covid19 was a lab leak.

[Caliman73]

8. Confounding how?

To me, the problem with the story is the same problem with any story in this period of our history. There is one side that legitimately wants to discover the facts about where the virus came from, using scientific and intelligence gathering techniques, in order to determine the cause and spread of the disease to have information for future events. The other side wants to blame someone in order to shift the blame for incompetence or malfeasance in handling the disease.

The Chinese government is not transparent. Nor is any other government. As much as we like to toot our own horn, the US is not a symbol of truth and transparency, especially during the Trump administration. There are definitely things we need to know moving forward. That is different from what Trump and the conservatives want. They want a way to blame the Chinese so that Trump and the rest of the idiots can say it wasn't their fault.

[cilla4progress]

12. Exactly Caliman

confounding in that all I've really had on my radar about this is the blah blah from the right that it had to be a deliberate leak designed to shut down the world and take down drumpf...so, naturally, the left / we would take the opposite view.

The article I shared is the most I've ever read about it!

Seems like an accidental leak is the most obvious (occam's razor) explanation.

It would be different if the lab was only placed there recently because Wuhan is a hot bed of virus. It's been there 65 years!

Just seems like too much of a coincidence.

[Pisces]

33. I agree with you. I don't believe it was deliberate. It would be helpful to know

Exactly what escaped so we could have a better idea of all the side effects. It took us too long to know how to treat and who was most vulnerable.

Trump exacerbated by not wearing a mask and encouraging others to not wear one. This is the simplest for of protection.

This doesn’t make someone a conspiracy nut to question the origin.

[zuul]

14. +1

[cilla4progress]

9. Removing the politics from it -

and not pushing anything...

hoping for some input from folks who have paid more attention to this story: is there an explanation for why it started in Wuhan, with the lab there? Seems like a huge coincidence. Could it not have been accidental, not nefarious??

I don't believe in just kneejerk taking the right (left) position, rather than analyzing the evidence objectively.

[Johnny2X2X]

18. Not really that big of a coicindence

That a lab studying animal borne illnesses would set up shop in a part of China where they illnesses may jump from animals to people is not unusual.

[cilla4progress]

23. That was my initial assumption -

but I believe the article says the lab has been there 65 years?

[Marrah_Goodman]

35. Exactly

You want to be where the viruses are emerging in humans.

[intrepidity]

38. Except that isn't true

But the bats in Yunnan are 1,000 miles from her laboratory, and one of the most extraordinary coincidences of the Covid-19 pandemic is that ground zero happened to be in Wuhan, the world centre for the study and storage of the types of coronavirus the city’s own scientists believe caused the outbreak.

https://archive.is/CUiQv

And see what "bat woman" Shi thought, upon hearing about the emerging disease:

"Shi was in a conference in Shanghai on Monday December 30, 2019, when she received a call to say there was a new coronavirus on the loose — and it had surfaced in Wuhan, of all places. Since her work had established that such viruses were most likely to originate in south China, she found the news puzzling and extremely worrying. “I wondered if [the local health authority] got it wrong,” she told the Scientific American magazine in a rare interview this year. “I had never expected this kind of thing to happen in Wuhan, in central China.”

[Caliman73]

21. There is no controversy as to why Wuhan.

One particular bat species, the Horseshoe bat, has been found to carry coronavirus similar to SARS-Cov-2. That species of bat is found in China, in the Wuhan area, along with some other habitats in Asia. There are also other animals in that region which carry other viruses that are potentially deadly and possibly passable to people from animals. That is why the lab is located in that area. Not really a coincidence.

[cilla4progress]

27. This was happening

65 years ago?

Pres Biden thinks a lab leak is worth investigating.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

[Johnny2X2X]

28. Worth investigating sure, likely the cause, no

It's possible there was a lab leak, maybe 1%. Definitely worth investigating. 99% chance it's naturally occurring, and we're investigating that too. Or whatever those %s are, 99-1, 90-10, 98-2. In fact, by investigating it's origins, which everyone has always agreed we do, we'll find out or more likely rule out that it was a lab escape.

The public just simply doesn't understand root cause analysis. You ask the questions an investigate, if there's a 1% chance something was the cause, you don't just not investigate, you investigate and rule it out. So the public has twisted "worth investigating" to "likely came from a lab" because coincidences.

[Caliman73]

30. No. This was not happening 65 years ago.

The lab was developed as a microbiology laboratory, then transformed into a virology lab in 2003. An existing lab was transformed into a virology lab specializing in studying viruses, in an area known in the world for being a vector for certain viruses.

The lab leak IS worth looking into. China's refusal to cooperate with the WHO and other agencies, has fueled the idea that something is being hidden. It took 10 years to determine the cause of the SARS virus that occurred in the early 2000's. What is fueling this situation right now is almost entirely right wing desire to blame someone other than Trump and the GOP.

There are legitimate inquiries into the situation, but those have been happening since the beginning of the outbreak. President Biden HAS to react the way he is reacting. If he blows it off, right wingers will accuse him of being part of the cover up, or at minimum, scared of the Chinese. He is handling this in the most appropriate way possible.

[cilla4progress]

31. Right - thank you, Caliman!

I agree 100%.

I had stayed out of the fray - no time, actually, to follow the story in any detail. The article in the Twitter post is the most direct info I've taken in about it! So, I've been quite neutral and unbiased about it - only absorbing that, like almost every shred of information or "news," it has been politicized, and turned into a rw crazy conspiracy.

I appreciate your objective, neutral, and knowledgeable perspective and concise explanation!

The 2003 conversion to a virology lab does make sense in terms of its placement in Wuhan, a hotbed of certain viruses, as you state.

And China's lack of transparency does add fuel to the fire - is suspicious.

The stupid (to me) is - regardless of naturally occurring or lab leak - how does this get drumpf off the hook in any way for his gross and deadly mishandling of the virus here???? I suppose it's just being "weaponized" as a diversion.

Thank you.

[Caliman73]

34. Correct. There is no "logical" way that he should escape responsiblity.

However, we have to remember that we are not dealing with a logical situation here. We are dealing with a swath of people in the United States, and a party apparatus, that has seized upon the stupidest, silliest conspiracies to maintain a cohesion. They cannot deal with the reality of the situation.

Look at the conservative response to January 6th. At first they acknowledged it was bad, and Trump had played a role in it happening. Then they said it didn't happen, then it was Antifa, then it was peaceful. They cannot acknowledge the truth because they are complicit.

They cannot acknowledge the facts and truth that the very same "natural" or "lab leaked" virus hit other countries and they were able to manage the outbreak without all of the deaths, casualties, and economic destruction that happened in the United States, because they had competent leadership. So, they are trying to maintain a focus that somehow China had it in for us and it was all China's fault.

It's like parallel play. The rest of the world is trying to solve a problem that can inform us and prepare us for the next pandemic (which will come). Conservatives in the US are trying to create a problem to avoid their incompetence and/or malfeasance in dealing with this pandemic.

[cilla4progress]

36. Is it true conservatives?

Or the over the edge crazies who have found a home in the R party? Are they one and the same? It will be helpful to US if they schism!

Shortly after the 2016 election I had an interaction in my home with one of "them." It taught me not to engage ever again - actually made me a little crazy. It was like being exposed to brainwashing.

I hate to say it, and no offense to people of religion - but it does bring to my mind what I've heard about how some religions work. Just accept whatever is said (sky is green, humans coexisted with dinosaurs) unquestioningly. So much comfort in being spoon-fed answers - even if they are obviously insane and wrong! You don't have to think or wrestle with incongruity and other "hard things."

[intrepidity]

39. See my post, #38, above nt

[Deminpenn]

43. These level 4 secure labs like one in Wuhan

are problematic because what they do is take existing pathogens and enhance them in order to do research on them. Even though they are supposed to be extremely secure with tight precautions designed to prevent any pathogen from getting outside the lab, nothing is 100% guaranteed.

[Fullduplexxx]

10. Maybe trump shouldnt have pulled america out of wuhan

Trump administration ended pandemic early-warning program to detect coronaviruses

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-02/coronavirus-trump-pandemic-program-viruses-detection

U.S. slashed CDC staff inside China prior to coronavirus outbreak

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv-idUSKBN21C3N5


Etc.

[LifeLongDemocratic]

13. Would have prevented it from spreading

Its the American scientists on the ground in Wuhan that Trump had removed shortly before this all happened who would have prevented this from spreading out of control like it did. The scientific team that the Obama administration had put in place to prevent such pandemics from occurring.

[Chainfire]

15. That article doesn't provide me with any new information

It is possible that the virus escaped from the facility, no evidence that it did. I wonder if the 1917 Flu escaped from there as well?

[WHITT]

19. Once Again

There were cases in Italy in September, which is three months prior to cases in China, according to the WHO's own field work, and two months prior to the contorted and evidence-free conspiracy theory of a "lab leak" in November.

[cilla4progress]

29. What is known about those cases?

nt

[WHITT]

32. In Italy?

They were overwhelmingly asymptomatic, so most were unaware they were even infected, which adds additional weight to their significance, as this virus was milder earlier and got more and more aggressive every time it mutated. The cases in China were definitely stronger than those in Italy.

On edit:

Not to mention the strain that infected New York came from Europe, not China.

[intrepidity]

40. It's a helluva coincidence that the closest genetic relative,

RaTG13, was found in a cave in Yunnan (not Italy).

That evidence exists for an earlier (than Jan) arrival in Italy, likely means it was in Wuhan earlier than we've been told (although, sequence analysis proves it to be a somewhat tight window). Other "evidence" suggest it could have been late summer. Too bad so much evidence has already been destroyed (early patient samples) so we will never know the full story.

[WHITT]

41. BUT

RaTG13, was found in a cave in Yunnan (not Italy).

It wasn't about origins, but that it was in Italy before it was in China.

That evidence exists for an earlier (than Jan) arrival in Italy...

That would be September.

likely means it was in Wuhan earlier than we've been told

By what twisted logic?

Other "evidence" suggest it could have been late summer.

Except that does not comport with the rest of the "lab leak" conspiracy theory. It also does not comport with the fact that the infections were weak and overwhelmingly asymptomatic in Italy, while much more aggressive in China, indicating a later mutated strain.

[intrepidity]

45. More info to consider

Link to tweet

[WHITT]

46. Those Were PARTIAL Sequences

that were deleted. "Analysis" is unsubstantiated speculation. None of the speculation and conspiracies jive with the science or the calendar.

[roamer65]

37. Long story...short.

GET VACCINATED.

Cant change history and any evidence of its origins has been long since lost.

[OhioChick]

42. I trust Professor Peter Hotez.....

Link to tweet

We may never know.