"How could a collapse of a condo in Surfside, FL happen?!"

[berni_mccoy]

I hear the media asking this repeatedly.

The answer is simple: lack of regulations.

FL has no regular high rise inspection regulation. They only require recertification of occupancy after 40 years.

Other states, like MA, require regular inspections of anything considered a high rise, specifics of that definition are defined. In MA, it’s every 5 years. And if maintenance isn’t performed, the building can be condemned.

You may not be able to stop a building from decay and collapse, but you sure as hell can prevent the people who live in it from being pulverized in a collapse.

This tragedy was 100% avoidable. Do not let anyone else tell you otherwise.

[Tommy Carcetti]

1. "Why?"

"Why? For the same reason our reactors don't have containment buildings around them, like those in the West. For the same reason we don't use properly enriched fuel in our core. For the same reason we are the only nation that builds water-cooled, graphite moderated reactors in a positive void co-efficient...It's cheaper."

[mountain grammy]

60. Amazing film.

[Phoenix61]

2. Honestly, I've never given it a thought.

There weren’t any high-rises where I grew up. It’s one of those things as soon as you hear it you think, well duh! Of course they need to be inspected on a regular basis. This seems especially true for anything near salt water.

[Skittles]

55. what I cannot understand

is why people would pay over a million dollar and have people living both above them and below them......crazy

[Hoyt]

3. Clearly, regulations failed the residents. But I'd bet the residents would not have ponied up money

-- likely tens of thousands of dollars for each condo -- to make the necessary repairs.

[malaise]

16. And that is the absolute truth

People cast their fate to the wind

[Turbineguy]

17. There are 342 condos in the building

the HOA approved $15 million for repairs.

That's about $44,000 on average.

https://www.miamiresidence.com/surfside/champlain-towers.htm

[progree]

22. This says 136 units in Champlin Towers South. $15M/136 equals $110,000/unit

https://kstp.com/national/before-shoreview-florida-building-collapse-millions-in-repairs-needed/6154739/

[Turbineguy]

23. I saw that. Maybe

my source includes both towers.

[progree]

24. Three towers per your link, but each apparently has its own HOA

https://www.miamiresidence.com/surfside/champlain-towers.htm

Champlain Towers East - 99 apartments
Champlain Towers North - 111 apartments
Champlain Towers South - 135 apartments

and only the South tower collapsed.

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_building_collapse

[Turbineguy]

26. Excellent research.

$110 grand is money.

[Politicub]

25. The reporting today is that repairs were expected to be about $15m, and work was starting to

commence. It's so sad that the can was kicked down the road for years before the HOA voted for the assessment and to start renovations. The mandated reserve fund for this building was $500k, with the HOA having about $700k set aside.

The assessment started at around $80k for one bedroom units. Or an owner could elect to have the payments broken up over a period of 15 years, and added to their monthly fees. That would be around $400-$500 additional per month.

There was a 2 bedroom/2 bathroom unit listed on Zillow on May 29. The monthly fees were listed at $900. With the assessment added in, it would raise the monthly fee to at least $1,300.

For a 40-year-old high-rise building, $1,300 is more inline with what I would expect the fees to have been. It costs a lot of money to run a building, and things are always breaking down or needing to be replaced.

[Larissa]

30. I had this thought exactly

Likely sticker shock for many. But the longer repairs are delayed, the worse the deterioration becomes and the more costly it is to fix it. Why not construct such buildings to withstand its environment in the first place? There were news references about the corrosive effect of salty, damp air.

[dumbcat]

40. It's possible that environments can change over 40 years

In times like ours, how do you design for the environment 40 years from now? Will that Surfside Beach area even exist, or be under several feet of sea water? What are scientists telling us things will look like in just 20 years from now, given climate change?

I'm an engineer. Electrical, not civil. But I would have no idea how to design and construct a building that I expect to survive the next 40 years on the Florida coast, or most anywhere. What is the environment going to be?

[berni_mccoy]

39. The building would have been condemned in other states.

Pay up for the maintenance or lose your investment. Living in a high rise has its costs.

[Scrivener7]

48. But where I live, where there are regulations, we keep hefty insurance to cover

a whole line of disasters. I wonder if that is something Florida condos do.

[Hoyt]

49. No insurance expert, but I don't think normal property insurance covers

erosion, building damage, etc., over a long period of time, especially when the problem was identified and nothing substantial was done to ameliorate the damage.

On CNN just now, they talked to a lady who had been renting a unit in the portion that didn’t collapse. She did not get the recent letter abou the need for repairs. I bet the estates of other renters will have a cause of action against owners who did not warn them. It’s going to be a big mess.

Lawyers, engineers, etc., will do well all along the coast.

[GulfCoast66]

50. I imagine that because the letter went to the owner.

They would be the one paying the assessment and having to vote to make the repairs.

[whistler162]

4. Matthew 7:26

[littlemissmartypants]

32. That's not a bit judgie. Ouch!

[Towlie]

5. No, the answer is not simple. We don't know exactly what it is yet but it's definitely not simple.

 
←

Captain Hindsight's wisdom isn't very helpful to other high-rise condo owners. When we do know how it happened then we'll have an idea of who's safe and who is not.

[Steelrolled]

57. People on the Internet always have if figured out before the engineers.

[snowybirdie]

6. I think

That no lending should proceed in coastal Florida in the future unless there is a building inspection along with a unit inspection when selling. That might help with the regulation (or lack thereof) problems.

[Towlie]

8. Inspect an entire building every time a unit is sold?

 
←

[snowybirdie]

10. Not every unit

but the common structures that we're seeing have showed damage very recently. I wouldn't want to spend $1,000,000 or so on a condo with shoddy, damaged infrastructure.

[lame54]

7. Build them cheap and sell them high...

Lots of Trump style developers in Florida

[FSogol]

9. In 1973 Skyline Plaza, a condo under construction collapsed killing 14 workers.

Whole story here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_Towers_collapse

The companies that caused the collapse were lightly punished by the courts (one company got a $300 fine).

But the accident did lead to the creation of Fairfax County’s Special Inspections for Critical Structures program. They inspect the design and construction of any large structure (malls, multistory buildings, etc) or building containing a lot of people (schools, theaters, bleachers, churches) etc.). They continue to inspect during the life of the building.

This is the type of program that red states lack. They avoid government regulations and let the market decide.

[frazzled]

11. In my city

which is the "Windy City," it seems that the most regular inspections are for building facades, because people have been killed or injured from pieces of facades blowing down off of buildings. Also, inspections for structures on top of buildings like water towers and flag poles, and of course, balconies. In my building (a mid-rise, six stories) I know we also have to have regular elevator and fire inspections.

[blockquote

If the building is not eligible for a Short Form (inspection), then owners need to file a much more comprehensive and costly Critical Examination Report, which will be due December 1st every 4th, 8th, or 12th year. The time interval between inspections is determined based on the nature of the facade and its susceptibility to deterioration. For example, a terra cotta facade, which is more prone to deterioration, is required to undergo Critical Examinations every 4 years under this program while an aluminum and glass curtain wall system with non-corrodible anchorage system is only required to undergo a Critical Examination every 12 years. Critical examinations require close-up visual examination of the building by a qualified individual. Physical contact must be made with portions of the facade utilizing scaffolding, boatswain chairs, or lifts at a minimum of 1 representative drop on each public way spanning no less than 24 feet. Critical examination reports require a site plan, detailed description of the building, photographs of elevations, drawings or photographs of distressed or deteriorated conditions, and other pertinent information. ...

Another Chicago inspection requirement, which often is forgotten, is for exposed metal structures. Chicago requires inspections of fire escapes, water tank supports, antenna towers, canopies, metal cornices, sign supports, flag poles, and other metal structures susceptible to deterioration due to weather. These structures are required to be inspected by a licensed design professional every 5 years. Some owners do not realize there is such a requirement until they receive a violation notice from the City of Chicago. Similar to Chicago’s facade inspections, contact a qualified Licensed Illinois Structural Engineer or Architect to schedule an exposed metal inspection if your building needs one.

https://www.cai-illinois.org/chicagos-mandated-building-inspections/

I don't know about basic structural inspections (we don't face the same conditions of salt water, hurricanes, etc.), but here is what I found in a local article after the Miami collapse:

In a statement, the Chicago Department of Buildings says that all high-rise development plans go through rigorous reviews, and inspections occur frequently to ensure that residents inside are safe.

“Chicago has one of the strictest building codes in the country,” the department said in a statement. “All plans for high-rise development undergo multiple reviews from all relevant disciplines, especially structural, to help ensure long-term safety. As further protection, owners must obtain a certificate of occupancy, which has its own set of requirements, prior to allowing any occupants in the building. We remain committed to the safety requirements outlined in the Chicago Construction Codes, and updating these codes as conditions evolve and new technology is introduced.”

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/chicago-experts-officials-weigh-in-after-miami-beach-condo-building-collapse/2540405/

[getagrip_already]

13. remember the bridge they found a gaping crack in?

Regulations require annual arms length inspection of every structural beam. The inspector was afraid of the trolley they used so he didn't use it (it was safe,, he just didn't want to use it).

So a major fault went undetected until a different crew came along and found it.

Shorter inspection intervals are better, especially if there is a rotation of contractors.

[frazzled]

14. So many of the bridges are 100 years old or more

Of course, they're not "original" to the extent that many parts have been replaced, and it seems like inspections are fairly regular. But I hold my breath if I'm stopped on one.

And don't even talk about the El. That curve in the Loop scares the heck out of me, but I ride it anyway.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. Free Market Florida

[Initech]

15. After the photos that came out last night, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html

And:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

There should be no debate about this. I mean these photos are evidence enough as to how the building collapsed. There's no real mystery behind it - it's just years of neglect when it came to maintenance and foundation repair.

[hunter]

38. It wasn't the pool.

Those pumps on ad-hoc brick platforms tell me something else.

How many little swimming pool pumps died when the entire lower level of the building was flooded with several inches of salt water?

[Grins]

18. Yes. 22-Years of Republican rat-fucking laws and regulations...

…for that oh-so-pure “invisible hand” of the free market, and looked the other way whenever true governing got in the way.

[Mr.Bill]

28. And now they can watch the free market

devalue high-rise condos across the board.

[PatrickforB]

19. Yep. And in Colorado, the state legislature (Dem controlled) has been

in a pissing contest with commercial RE developers. There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE pent-up demand for condos, but none are being built, because the developers don't like the 'excessive' regulations.

As to the FL collapse, we could have begun with good regulation, for sure, but I can totally understand the delay - residents were going to be assessed ~$80K each to cover the cost of repairs, and that is a major hit for individuals. See, the way it is set up is just like our healthcare system - as much of the cost as possible is passed on to consumers, and as much of the risk as possible is foisted off on taxpayers, while the corporations skate away with 'externalities.'

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. More of the "private profit, socialized risk" that Republicans love so much.

[erronis]

37. Like everything else capitalists touch: get the money and run. Stiff the stiffs.

And, as you say, frequently the stiffed are the taxpayers, and the capitalists pay no taxes. Wonder how this happens....

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. One reason I won't live in a red state - lack of regulations on road, building,

and etc.

They just aren't safe.

And not only the lack of regulations, but they also often are too poor to manage their roads and bridges, schools, and so on, or even to do inspections.

[gratuitous]

27. The same reason that fertilizer plant wiped West, TX off the map

Lack of regulation and inspection. But don't worry; Texas Republicans knew just what to do about it. The legislature passed laws that prohibited anyone - including government inspectors - from doing an end run around plant owners to inspect their procedures, or from inquiring too closely about what they might be storing at their plants.

In case you've forgotten, here's a video shot from some 300 yards away. Wait until the 1:25 mark of the 1:35 video:

[dhol82]

31. WOW!

[malaise]

44. I remember that one well

Always profits over lives

[ProfessorGAC]

46. I Met One Of The Investigators For That

They found structural steel members from the warehouse 6 miles away!
The crater was, IIRC, 15 feet deep at its center.

[mcar]

29. Every 40 years is ridiculous

especially for oceanfront high rises. The erosion has been increasing rapidly in FL over the last several years.

[littlemissmartypants]

33. Kick. Thank you. ❤ nt

[Scalded Nun]

34. Everyone gets to see what life is like in a third-world country.

I do not see why anyone is surprised by this. In red states in particular, this has been going on for many decades. This particular incident seems particularly horrible, but mainly due to the lives lost. No regulations, rich preying on the poor and the poor spending their lives scrambling for scraps. Here we have it. This is what corporate America, the rich and the Right Wing want for this country.
The sad thing is, like most of the gun violence experienced across the country, this will be pushed off the news in a new days and we will be back to the rinse/repeat cycle.

[area51]

51. +1 n/t

[appalachiablue]

35. The bldg. survived many severe hurricanes

since the 1980s like 'Andrew' in 1992 in So. Fla. I saw the effects afterwards- enormous damage and destruction, similar to impacts in Bermuda, and from'Hugo' in 1987 in Charleston, SC.

Yet it was lack of regulation and inspection, and delayed maintenance for major decay that took down the condo building and ended so many lives. Tragic. The Free Market killer ideology BS has to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_hurricanes

[GulfCoast66]

53. Actually it has not. Many hurricanes have come near, but none hit.

Andrew wiped out Homestead, south of Miami. This is north of Miami.

Several storms hit north of them but that put them on the left side of the storm with offshore winds. Francis and Jeanne in 04 which also came thru central Florida. Irma passed maybe 80 miles west of them. That one cost me a new roof.

Hurricanes are strange. They are huge storms. But if the eyewall misses you by even 25 miles they are not that bad. Unless it floods. I’ve been through a bunch. Most have been like day long bad thunderstorms Only been through an eyewall twice. Do not want to repeat that experience.

But the building would have stood through a bad one if maintained as it was built. They basically let it rot till it fell. And rot is the correct term. Saltwater rots concrete and especially iron support beams and rebar. And does it fast.

[appalachiablue]

61. That's interesting, what I read didn't

specify a direct hit. So the info. was off on that. During Sandy in coastal Del., our area had 80 mph winds, torrential rains and flooding although not as severe as places in the direct path of the superstorm. What we endured was rough for 14 hours or so.

My first hurricane experience was as a kid in a close brush off coastal Md.

I'm familiar with Homestead, Miami, Ft. Laud., the Keys, Boca, Melbourne, Sarasota, Naples, Jax- all over, through relatives who go back there to 1925, and friends.

Dealing with those extreme events and threats takes real stamina and patience, it's remarkable that many people can adapt to it. I couldn't, not now for sure, lol. At one time we wanted to reside p-t in Key West, almost bought a charming older property. The place is beautiful and unique.

[GulfCoast66]

62. I guess you get used to it.

I grew up in tornado country. The lack of warning scares the shit of me. With Hurricanes I have days to prepare. Plus, I’m 80 miles inland so would not bear the brunt. I guess I’ve been through 8 or 9 of them.

And in peninsular Florida we routinely get thunderstorms with 60mph winds gusts and unbelievable rain. So 80mph is not so bad to us. Those thunderstorms are more intense and scary than a near miss hurricane.

We are retiring to a town on the coast although not on a barrier island and comparatively high at 25 feet above sea level. We will build a home that can withstand 150+ mph. But I will have the 100’s rule. A storm of 100 mph within 100 miles of me and I will go 100 miles away. Actually 80 miles up to Tallahassee.

BTW I was just in Key West a few weeks ago. Neat place we like visiting but way too many tourists.

Have a nice evening.

[Warpy]

36. Concrete and steel buildings have a limited lifespan, anyway

that falls far short of the hundreds of years for some stone buildings and the thousands of years of pyramids.

Given the problems with water intrusion, I have to wonder if this is a case of a soundly constructed building in the wrong place. It's either that or some critical step was skipped around the foundation, the slab, or the first floor piers.

The report in a year or so will be very interesting. Catastrophic failures of steel and concrete buildings are extremely rare in the absence of explosives, airplane collisions or earthquakes.

[Steelrolled]

58. This makes me think of the bridge that collapsed

and all of the Internet experts immediately proclaimed it a lack of maintenance. It turns out there was a serious design error made four decades earlier, and it finally came to bear.

[Warpy]

63. Those glitzy high rises are often not that well constructed

Oh, they'll mostly stay standing up until they're old and shabby and full of cockroaches and somebody knocks them down so they can put up a new glitzy high rise. People pay to look out, not enjoy what's inside. I haven't been particularly impressed when I've worked in them or visited people who lived in them.

So yes, it's going to be fascinating to read the report months from now.

[msongs]

41. still gotta pay the mortgage even if the building has collapsed nt

[berni_mccoy]

42. Isn't there a thing called insurance?

[msongs]

43. homeowners condo insurance does not pay for walls and floor and ceilings, only for

contents within the walls and floors. of course there may be mortgage insurance but how many people have that? one doubts the HOA has insurance to rebuild the collapsed buiding.

[yardwork]

54. The condo association should have insurance on the whole building.

That coverage should have been enough to replace the building, but who knows?

When I was president of a small condo association, the treasurer tried to cancel our insurance and replace it with cheaper coverage that wouldn't have been enough to rebuild in the event of a catastrophe. None of the other owners realized what it would have meant.

[Steelrolled]

59. There will be an enormous claim for the common property and

each unit owner will have a claim for their property (typically starting with drywall and subfloor). Lots of insurance companies will be involved.

[Quixote1818]

45. K and R

[Hassler]

47. The same way Texass' grid went down: no regulations,

Cutting corners, doing everything on the cheap.

[yardwork]

52. I wish I could rec this a thousand times.

When people complain about government regulation they have no idea what they're really saying, in my opinion. Basically, deregulation is like opening your front door and inviting burglars to come in, while expecting them to protect your house.

[JI7]

56. They also cost much less compared to ocean front property in other areas

Probably becsuse of the lack of regulations and all the costs that go with it.