Something about the Miami building collapse that no one is asking:

[Initech]

Last edited Tue Jun 29, 2021, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)

And that question is - how the hell does this not happen more often?

Especially if you dig deep into states where they don't give a crap about government regulations. If they did then the buildings would get regular foundation maintenance and repairs. But they don't and this is what we get. Seriously, keep electing conservatives and skirting around government regulations and see where that gets you. But these pictures that came out yesterday - that building was a nightmare.

The media thinks there's some big mystery behind why this building collapsed. There's no mystery. It's what happens with every disaster. Someone ignores the experts who gave out dire warnings about the situation at hand and did nothing about it, and total disaster ensues. If you ignore the experts, in this case, engineers and building maintenance, then you will get a building that collapses on you. These pictures alone are a nightmare, and I'm sure this is not the only building in the country like this.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Right there with you, my dear Initech!

I don't know why it doesn't happen more often. Pure luck, maybe.

And I suspect that people don't respond well to such warnings when they do occur, because thinking that such disasters could happen is just too scary.

[Initech]

53. Hey, I work in an engineering firm. We've seen some real atrocities over the years!

People need to take this stuff seriously but sadly I'm afraid they won't and then when the next one happens...

[malthaussen]

90. Many years ago I worked as a security guard in one place...

... they had a sealed room where a red light would come on if chlorine had escaped into the atmosphere. One night during a storm the light came on, so my partner on the shift decided to go into the room with an O2 tank and reset it. He suspected the storm had tripped the light, not any escape of Cl. I thought he was taking an unnecessary risk, but he went ahead and did it anyway. Comes out of the room and says "It's a good thing I was right, because there is no O2 in this tank."
Those tanks are supposed to be inspected regularly, but in fact the plant had few if any that were actually functional, which would have caused all sorts of mayhem if there had been a fire.

I have worked in so many plants where regulations and inspections are taken lightly, that it is hard for me to think of OSHA as anything more than a joke. I'm sure some municipal inspectors are just as negligent.

-- Mal

[PsakiPswirli]

2. Regulations? We don't need no stinkin' regulations.

The condo owners would rebel if assessed over $300K each to TRY to fix the problem.
As for deregulation....or lack of regulation, there are traces of Roundup in ALL children's cereal. What could go wrong?

[littlemissmartypants]

31. Welcome to DU. nt

[wnylib]

49. I heard an NPR interview

with a relative of one of the missing. She said that the condo owners were assessed 100k each year for maintenance, but nothing ever seemed to get done. Water in the garage, leaks elsewhere. So when they were told that even more was needed for maintenance repairs, people were skeptical and asked what was done with previous maintenance money.

[lpbk2713]

58. Management has no excuse.

At that rate ... the building has (had) 136 units. Even if they only had 80% occupancy they would be pulling in more than $10 Million a year just in maint fees. They should be taken to court and made to account for what they did with all that money every year.

[wnylib]

61. That's pretty much what I thought

when I was listening. If what the woman said was true, 100k a year sounds like a high yearly cost for living there.

[luvtheGWN]

71. I doubt iy was $100K per unit.

Probably, in addition to each unit's maintenance fees, they collectively were assessed an additional $100K.

[blugbox]

94. I believe the last assessment for the building was $15 MILLION

Or roughly $110,000 average per unit.

[summer_in_TX]

69. I heard on NPR that they've been assessed maintenance fees for years.

One lady interviewed wondered what had happened to their money. They never had evidence it was actually being used to make improvements, apparently. She wondered if the funds had been misappropriated.

[TheOther95Percent]

3. My sister is condo hunting in Florida

She's looking in the Orlando area to be closer to her children and grandchildren and she is avoiding high rises. She's also avoiding anything built before the building codes were reinforced after Hurricane Andrew so nothing built before 1994. Her RE agent said that a couple of people who were ready to go to contract have backed out of the deals since last week. Lots of articles in the Florida press and TV reports on the shoddy construction in the 1980s.

[Demovictory9]

48. I feel sorry for anyone who closed escrow on one of the buildings recently

😰😕

[smb]

76. Florida Has A Long-Time Rep For Dodgy Real Estate Dealings

"You can have any kind of a home you want. You can even get stucco. Oh, how you can get stuck-o!"
--Groucho Marx, "The Cocoanuts"

[RainCaster]

96. Have her wait - the prices are going down

I think condo prices in FL are going to take a dive as more news comes out about this building and its shoddy maintenance.

[malaise]

4. Great post

This happens when people vote for cultural issues rather than quality of life policies - and yes this should happen way more often and not just in the USA

[jaxexpat]

62. But to be fair, Malaise, one person's cultural issue is another's quality of life issue.

Cast-in-place concrete buildings are expensive to build but they offer structural reliability unachievable from other techniques. But like every other type of building construction, they are built under deadline conditions. More often than people would feel comfortable admitting, construction quality suffers from the pressure of completion schedules. The US has a critical shortage of skilled construction labor. It's been the case for at least 25 years all across the country. In the building boom areas it's been a problem for much longer. South Florida is the poster child for such a building boom run rampant. The situation is common where a form carpenter would be promoted to foreman and a foreman promoted to superintendent out of the need for those positions to be filled due to a need to meet contract conditions. Often this takes precedence over any regard for the necessary qualifications or experience required for competence.

I have been to construction progress meetings wherein a contractor is using 100% of his company's workforce. But due to weather or changes in project scope or a shortage of competent labor finds himself running behind schedule. Project management's answer to this is to demand the contractor put on additional shifts or pay another contractor to perform the work in order to catch up. He has no additional personnel to throw at this. Even if he did, he'd have no supervision for the crews. It is NEVER financially viable to place another contractor in addition to your own on the same project, even if one could be found. The morale of the entire workplace at this point can sink so that the workforce fails to perform, often due to the irregularity of payroll and/or sub-contractor commitments. All too typically the contractor will simply go bankrupt, leaving the project broken, critical path objectives incomplete with disastrous consequence for the quality of structural integrity. This is a COMMON scenario in a building boom environment.

I believe that the negative affect of contractual scheduling pressure and the inability of the workforce to accomplish quality production under those high pressure conditions will prove to be the culprit here as well as in other disasters which are waiting to reveal themselves. Sometimes it's not the politics of regulations so much as the power of techniques employed to ensure that faceless investor's expectations get met which are our downfall. In the US, it's greed which has the most power.

[jmowreader]

105. I'm going to agree with the "shortage of skilled construction labor" thing

Last year I inherited my parents’ 13-year-old and very boring house (white walls, beige cheap carpet, vinyl sliding patio door, contractor grade appliances) and have been turning it into a house I want to live in (tile floors throughout, seven different paint colors, wood French patio door, designer appliances). There is not one straight wall in the whole fucking place...and worse, the walk separating the kitchen from the living room has a different warp on each side. It also looks like they cut the holes in the drywall for the doors with an axe.

[jaxexpat]

106. Sounds like one where the owner of the company had no experience either.

There're many houses that sold only on the strength of being, at least, dry during light storms. For a few years anyway.

[jmowreader]

108. You would think, but no

This company has built a lot of subdivisions; the one I’m in is the sixth one they did.

[Blanks]

5. According to the structural engineering professor on TV this morning (CNN)...

A regulation was passed in 1989 requiring additional rebar to tie the columns together. When asked if he’d go into the other buildings built around the same time as the one that collapsed, he said he wouldn’t go near them.

He said the 1989 regulation was to prevent ‘pancaking’ one floor on top of the other when there was failure, as this building did.

He also recommended more frequent inspections than 40 years, 10 or 15 years made more sense to him.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

40. Yeah, I think the original design was part of the problem...

... for that kind of progressive collapse to occur.

There surely wasn't enough structural redundancy to keep any failures more isolated.

[SheilaAnn]

6. I would venture a guess that the condo business in the Miami area is going to fall off greatly. n/t

[RAB910]

7. My background

I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I spent 15 years as a facility manager at a hospital.

At this point, I am truly baffled as to why the building tumbled. It wasn't windy or raining so the stresses on the building were nowhere near peak. Hell, these buildings are designed to withstand hurricanes.

I have read the engineering report myself that everyone is making a fuss about but nothing that reports screams smoking gun.

Even the pictures you posted, are from an area that actually is still standing.


At this point, I can't say what caused the collapse. I mean it was most likely the failure of a column or couple of columns but why they failed is a mystery.

If I had to bet, my money is on the failure of a piling(s) or perhaps corrosion that wasn't actually identified.

[Scrivener7]

11. Someone who knows stuff! Do you think the ground under the building contributed?

Is it possible to stabilize the ground on a barrier island like that?

[RAB910]

16. They drive piles 50 feet into the crappy soil (or whatever they are dealing with)

To create stability. It's possible there was a void under the piles that gave way or the material that the piles were driven into is no longer as good as when the building was built (due to water tables rising and possibly other issues).

[RAB910]

23. It's possible there was a void, or as I said water from flooding and rising water tables changed the

consistency.

[Scrivener7]

25. Thank you! It will be interesting to see what they find. And whether this is going to

be an issue with many other buildings.

[not fooled]

64. Yes, if they are honest

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the effects of sea level rise downplayed, if that's a significant factor. Especially in Republicanland where everything is fine and global warming is a hoax.

[NH Ethylene]

68. That seems like a good contender, given its location and rising sea levels. If so,

doesn't that put ALL those high rises in jeopardy, no matter how well they were constructed otherwise?

[RAB910]

81. If it's a failure of the foundation do to soil condition changes- yes

[Hekate]

13. The last words one woman said to her husband, as she stood on their balcony, were...

…that the pool deck was collapsing. Then the rest came down.

Do you know the story of that single straw that broke a camel’s back?

[RAB910]

26. Yeah, I have heard that

not sure if the pool deck was collapsing simultaneously or first. If you want the collapse the main building collapse starts from the pool deck side and then the backside. It's possible the pool deck (the deck around the pool covering the parking garages) collapse pushed out the columns supporting the main building but I am not sure how the material would have moved to the point of taking out the columns under the building. Although if the deck collapsed street side first, it could have put enough of a lateral load on the columns to cause them to fail

[Yonnie3]

18. I agree with you

My education in Engineering was Electrical but I spent my latter years in a facility management role. I don't see any kind of smoking gun in those images.

I've not seen information on the building foundation (pilings?) and wonder if there was a catastrophic failure there. Perhaps a sudden subsidence or sinkhole under the supports.

[JI7]

20. That's interesting. So the problems mentioned so far

should not have resulted in the collapse of the building in the way it did .

[Yonnie3]

28. I'm certain that multiple factors will be the cause

I was referring only to the images in the OP not showing a smoking gun and speculating as to why there would be such a sudden collapse. I'm not sure what problems you reference.

[TexasBushwhacker]

78. Considering that Florida is sinkhole city ....

[Yonnie3]

79. Yeah

I saw an overhead photo of the pool area. The pool is intact but the adjacent patio has dropped approximately four feet. There were ladders from the patio up to the pool level which is how I estimated the height difference. There is very little debris in that area. Some tables with umbrellas and chairs remain in place.

[RAB910]

86. that area isn't known for sinkholes like the rest of the state

[zipplewrath]

24. Assuredly multiple factors

Civil engineers use amazingly large "factors of safety" in their designs/analysis. It's not going to be just "one thing". Of course, there's always the "Kansas city pedestrian bridge", where the construction didn't meet the design. And we are all concerned about foundation issues caused by water table issues in the area. But absent that, it is more likely that the building suffered a series of problems, potentially even small modifications that weakened the structure. I suspect the final analysis will not satisfy many people, especially those looking for someone to blame.

The answer to the question of "why doesn't it happen more often" is because it is very unlikely. Between design conservatism, inspections, regulations, and our tendency to tear down the "old" to build the "new", we dodge this bullet way more than we experience it.

[RAB910]

27. Exactly, these buildings are built to withstand a hurricane and then some

The safety factors would be sizeable.

To me, it's striking that this building went down on a calm quiet night. No wind or rain buffeting the structure.

[whopis01]

50. One observation about the weather in this area

The first part of this year was very dry we only started getting heavy rains in June.

Unusually dry periods followed by heavy rain, particularly in coastal areas make this area more vulnerable to sinkholes. The drying of limestone, particularly where it was exposed to salt water, causes it to weaken, and then the weight of new rainfall can cause collapse.

I have no evidence that played any role in this event - it was just one of the first thoughts I had when I heard about it.

[RAB910]

82. The only issue with the sink hole theory is that area is not that prone to them

compared to most of the state

[whopis01]

100. There was a sinkhole in the Little Havana area of Miami last week

That area is leas prone than some parts of Florida, but sinkholes happen all over the state.

[NeoGreen]

55. Are we all making an erroneous assumption that it was actually...

... built to code, with proper materials and testing during construction?

[RAB910]

83. Possible, although it would be impressive for a building to last 40 years if it wasn't up to code

not impossible, but one would think any contractor errors/shortcuts would have caused issues sooner

[dsc]

42. something was mentioned about construction equipment on the roof

could that have been a cause.

[RAB910]

85. From the documents I have read the work on the roof shouldn't have been all that impactful

[ProfessorGAC]

109. I'm Thinking No

I'm a scientist not a structural engineer.
But, if equipment on the roof had any real impact, the roof of the top floor would have collapsed under load, long before it was enough to affect the entire building.
Not impossible, but I'd think extraordinarily unlikely.

[DownriverDem]

60. How about

salt water for the corrosion?

[RAB910]

84. very possible

[Turbineguy]

8. Having seen wiring techniques

in Florida buildings, I've wondered that too.

[bluecollar2]

9. Miami-Dade county is its own little banana republic

You are absolutely right.

Why doesn't it happen more often?

Sheer luck is my guess.

[appleannie1]

10. That is what is going on with the electrical grid in Texas.

And it could happen in places like Galveston where building are built on sand bars.

[LiberalArkie]

12. Their problem was that the concrete slab that held the pool etc was built flat like most

instead of a slight incline so that any leakage would move away from the building.

[moondust]

14. Luck?

It is a wonder when GQP politicians have been demonizing government regulations and deregulating for decades presumably in the interest of boosting private profits. DeSatan had his "Deregathon" a couple years ago. Their anti-regulation talk may not lead directly to disasters but it surely tends to minimize the importance of regulations and feed the anti-government culture on the right. There are bound to be consequences eventually.

It reminds me a little of the anti-maskers who hate big gubment telling them what to do. And then they get sick and die of COVID because they didn't follow the precautions and regulations issued by the government.

[moniss]

15. Agreed and

several other questions get overlooked. Among them would be what are the local or state regulations with respect to frequency of building inspection by authorities, what are the criteria used during the inspection, were any inspections skipped, did the fire marshal also inspect this property etc. Then I would start looking for connections to the condo owners/association/maintenance contractors and local and state officials. These would just be a starting point.

On a related note about how media will frustrate us by not talking about certain aspects of a disaster, I refer now to the Flint, Michigan water fiasco. During the whole long process of reporting by cable news that ran 24/7 for months and months about "how could this happen" I never once saw any report about who were the engineers who signed off on the project reports and drawings. Any project of such magnitude would go through a typical process during design and implementation where various things are evaluated and approved or sent back for more evaluation. This process includes professional engineers reviewing and concurring that environmental regulations have been reviewed, water quality impact has been examined etc. But listening to everybody on TV you would think that it all happened by just that piece of garbage governor they had and his "local city manager".

The reason I bring up Flint in relation to the Florida case is, because like in so many other disasters, it is critical for the people to understand that those who have knowledge of an issue/problem or are asked/expected to look the other way must not do so and must be ready to quit their job and blow the whistle. It is painful in many ways and can end your career. But you must take that path if you can get no resolution. Sometimes when you try to fight a critical wrong from inside the situation/organization for too long you will find at a certain point that it is too late.

[llmart]

29. Excellent post.

I was married to an automotive engineer. Years ago he had a conflict with the engineering manager about changing out a material that he recommended for use in the steering column in a big truck. Of course the manager told him to just do as he instructed which he did. There was an awful accident in one of these trucks that ended the life of a driver because of failure of the steering column. He had to testify in court when the company was sued for negligence.

It's always about keeping costs low and sacrificing safety for savings.

[moniss]

33. Thank you and

you are so right about management overruling engineers to save a buck.

[Initech]

45. I love it when they say "how could this happen" without an answer.

Oh there's an answer, and most people aren't going to like it!

[machoneman]

17. Engineering is a science-based discipline. FL, DeSantis, home-schooled R's, sheer ignorance boom!

[GusBob]

19. It doesnt happen more happen more often due to a simple reason

Engineers

as pointed out above

[FakeNoose]

21. Miami Beach is a sand bar

Not many cities are dumb enough to do what was done there ... build huge high-rise buildings on sand. So yeah we northerners have high-rise buildings all over the country, but ours are built on bedrock which should be a solid base.

The other issue: their construction materials were guaranteed to rust and split when sitting in seawater for long enough. Other posts in DU are explaining the weakness of the rebar-enforced concrete: it should never be exposed to salt water, or really any underground water.

When Florida pumps out ground water for human use, like it has been doing for the last 50 years, then the fresh water is gone and salt water flows in underground to replace it. In most of our states with higher elevations, we have freshwater aquifers that replenish themselves (hopefully) every year or so. Florida is all flat and they don't have enough fresh water supplies to sustain their huge and growing population. It's really been a slow-moving disaster for a long time.

[moniss]

35. You are so right

about the water issue and the growing demand. It happens in other states as well where the aquifers are inadequate/radon impacted and the developers and city officials just keep on green-lighting bigger industrial parks and residential development. No concerns for sustainability as long as they all get their cut.

[lindysalsagal]

22. Those high risers freak me out.

[malthaussen]

91. No lie.

I wouldn't live in one if it were free.

-- Mal

[Jarqui]

30. As the infrastructure deteriorates, this will happen a little more.

We've seen some bridges fall for example.

There has been a lot of building done in the last century. It does suffer from wear and erosion over time.

I began as a Civil engineer. There are many factors of safety you are supposed to build into your design. If you have a failure, it is obviously major and probably career ending. A lot of structures are not to code but there's enough factor of safety built into them, they can handle a fair amount of the unexpected. That is why the factors of safety are so extensive and cascading in the design calculations.

I have not tried to study this failure. Not enough is known. Obviously, the condition of the reinforced concrete is an issue. So is water and the conditions of the foundation. Patching over the cracks probably wasn't good - could have hidden some issues from inspection. etc, etc. Lots to consider. Whatever. It should not have fallen down after 40 years.

I have done some investigations of structural failure for insurance companies. Sometimes, you cannot be 100% certain. It might be "70% chance this happened and 30% chance that happened". Maybe they cleaned some of it up before you got to check it all out.

There was one mechanical failure that caused a major blackout. I was never able to prove scientifically what happened for sure. I was pulling my hair out for months. To this day, I'm not sure. It too came down to a few possibilities.

Then there is going to be a mess in the lawsuits to determine who is responsible. That lawsuit won't end any time soon.

I'm sick about the loss of life. What a nightmare.

One good thing could come of this: more people will report stuff they see like we saw going on with this building. Some lives in the future might get saved.

[moniss]

36. Eventually the

analysis will reach all the way back to the mill run of steel that the rebar came from. As I'm sure you know many times steel gets bought and sold around from company to company and the "certs" aren't always what they purport to be. Stuff gets re-tagged all the time and eventually a batch that is not of "claimed" specs ends up looking like it is and gets used anyway. Most people don't know that. Same way with the concrete. Then comes the thousands of other questions about whether the original contractor did the pilings right and did they allow enough time for the concrete in the columns to cure etc. before charging forward with putting slabs and weight on them. All kinds of questions.

Another aspect will be to look at the original architect's drawings/plans and see if the design elements were appropriate for the location. Did the contractor follow the plans or did they deviate in some areas? Did the owner of the building request changes that the architect didn't know about? You know the deal about having to try to dig out the historical aspects of everything that was done along with gathering the evidence from the scene. Long and slow process. People with knowledge have died, records are gone, people tell lies etc. I'm sure you've heard it all before.

[Jarqui]

74. I've caught the steel substitution more than once.

Fortunately, I was inspecting the structure.
The tensile strength can vary dramatically - as multiples - as you know.

Was the concrete done right? Is all the rebar in there? etc , etc

One of my first design jobs was modifying a building to handle millions of tons of beer to be processed on the 4th floor of a building built in 1914 and modified substantially in 1924. I pulled my hair out on that one. The original drawings were barely readable. It is hard enough when the structure hasn't fallen down yet. If that building had fallen down and I had to figure that out ... good luck.

One thing when you look at the video is which parts of the building kind of remain intact when it starts to fall. When the WTCs came down, the upper part of the building above where the plane hit, rode down the structure pancaking the floors below as it went.

With this structure, though the start of the video is a little cut off, it seems like most of the building that you can see start to fall, kind of falls together downward, shearing off at the columns it connects to - kind of intact. That is a pretty good indication of a structural failure at ground level or below.

They have a fair amount of clues off the top of my head:
- the woman on the cell phone in the building observing the slab in front of the pool failing just before she starts screaming
- the documented 2mm? sinking per year
- constant water flooding problems in the underground
- the pics of the eroded concrete in the basement
- many cracks patched
- engineers report
- soil/foundation conditions in that area (built on wetlands?)
- apparently the unusual building noises made the night before
- the construction next door
etc, etc

So they've some ideas on where to look and things they might look for to try to prove what happened.

[moniss]

102. Agreed and

I didn't hear about other construction nearby. If foundation work was being done on that building then they may have been running pumps to remove enough water for their concrete work etc. As you and I know that could easily have affected the levels nearby that are providing "support".

[Sgent]

103. They were building

the building next door from the ground up -- including pile driving (vibration method is my guess). One of the condo owners was interviewed and said her entire living room was vibrating like an earthquake, pictures falling, etc.

That building though finished construction earlier this year, and the pile driving probably 2-3 years ago.

[moniss]

111. Although

what I'm about to say doesn't apply, in any way most likely, to the building collapse here it is instructive about how small things being ignored or contractors/maintenance people not knowing certain things can play into mechanical failures. As I'm sure you know metric and USS/SAE fasteners have differences beyond just the dimensions/grade/thread of the bolt or screw. As an example a flat head metric has a different angle to the head, typically, than those used here. If someone uses a USS/SAE head bolt or screw in that countersunk location the area of contact will be less (reduced clamping force) unless they try to get it to seat "better" by over-tightening. Then they bring about the problems of over torqued fasteners and distortion of the area around the fastener etc. This swapping of fasteners by maintenance people/contractors happens way more than people realize. They come to a job and don't know these issues and they don't perhaps have the proper bolt and then they "make the change" to a different fastener diameter that is "close". I see the problem of incorrect fasteners all the time in heavy equipment etc. where people have done this and then can't figure out why the fastener failed and/or ruined the part. People will also constantly switch around Grade 8 for Grade 5 and vice versa. As an example they end up with a failure "down the line" because the Grade 5 may have been purposely spec'd in that location so that it would fail earlier than a Grade 8 and the machine sensors would shut down before catastrophic damage to gear casings etc. Understanding fasteners and applications is under-appreciated out in the field unless contractors etc. care enough to make sure all personnel are educated on the subject. I've actually had experience with people replacing shear bolts with higher grade because they kept snapping the shears. Instead of finding out why they just figured the bolt was "too weak".

[Jarqui]

112. How much of that would they have in a building that appears to be

concrete foundation, walls, floors, etc. ?

Was there a structural steel frame that was bolted in that building?
Were portions prefabbed and connected by bolts?

Maybe I missed something - could have easily done so. I just noticed strands of rebar. I don't recall seeing bolted connections.

I did see a media report that said some engineers noticed a lack of rebar (which I mentioned above was something to look at) compared to the design drawings. Contractors constantly do that as a way to line their pockets. They'll also rush the setting of the concrete. Would that contractor still be around 40 years later? Would their insurance cover it? What a mess.

[moniss]

113. My

comment about fasteners was just in the general sense of things failing whether a building or mechanical device. The insurance company would have to cover under an errors and omissions basis. Same for all entities that had any contracting, inspection or permitting work for this building. The contractor may not be around or the insurance company in its' original form but insurance law requires that if a company sells out to another the liabilities go with. If the company simply goes out of business most states have a shared liability pool that all insurers are required to participate in and contribute to. It's really just like insurance on insurance. Most commonly referred to as a "reinsurance" concept. They calculate future risk to the base of the insurance that company had out there and then come up with a calculated amount that will be needed each year to cover any losses. Then they approach the big time insurance gamblers like those on the Lloyds of London exchange and then they determine their premium numbers and hopefully book a tidy profit. All of that goes well for them until something like this happens but they are always backed up by massive cash reserves if unexpected losses happen. Sort of an insurance on the insurance on the insurance. All of that doesn't mean they willingly pay and I believe that the court case could go on for many decades unless people want to settle.

[Jarqui]

115. You know the deal on insurance companies

You've got coverage until you make a claim.
Then you have to get a lawyer.
The 40 years since construction leaves them some outs.
Then, how much was the coverage for? I cannot imagine it was anywhere close to what the actual tab is going to be.
They'll be fighting over every clause.
Every possible responsible party will be pointing the finger elsewhere.
They have to sue everybody in sight.
Massive legal costs on top of all the other massive losses.
It's ugly.

Meanwhile, the Republicans will blame it on the Democrats and some life goes on ... until we're distracted by the next big news story ...

[moniss]

116. Sadly this

is all true. The insurance industry claims departments/executive decisions are sometimes beyond what most of us would think is depravity. For instance a well documented case not too far from me, many years ago, is a good example. A person had been injured in an accident and was in a coma in the hospital. The nurses heard a commotion from the room and came running. They found a claims adjuster in the room shaking the patient to try to "wake them up". He had a release of liability form and he was trying to force the patient to grasp a pen while shaking them.

[Jarqui]

117. Agree completely

They'll fight over clear cut claims just to get people to give up and allow the insurance company to cut their losses. It isn't just the financing of the lawsuit (that they may recover). Where personal loss has occurred, they're dragging the victim through the loss again and again - which turns people off fighting for it. Sometimes, its brutal.

[IronLionZion]

32. Florida probably has Trump-style developers

who cut corners and would pay off regulators and bribe inspectors anyway.

[Initech]

41. Well yeah, just look at Mar-A-Lago!

Or as I call it - "Mar-A-Shithole"!

https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-trump-mar-a-lago-health-violations-20170413-story.html

[smirkymonkey]

77. Ugh! How disgusting!

How can Trump be such a germaphobe, yet allow his venues to be so filthy and unsanitary ? He visits them as well, so you would think he would hold them to higher standards.

Even if I had tons of money, I wouldn't touch one of his shit-hole places with a ten-foot pole. They all seem absolutely disgusting and vulgar.

[IronLionZion]

93. How can he be aware the dangers of COVID

while spewing complete lies to his stupid supporters? He cares only about himself and is ready to screw everyone else.

[SharonAnn]

70. Yes, they do. All of the above. And they're not the only ones.

[lindysalsagal]

92. Designed to rip off everyone and then get blown up?

[Historic NY]

34. It happens everyday, inspector passes marginal concrete, techniques, etc...

A state overpass bridge job was within weeks of being complete a mile from my house when the inspector found the wrong concrete mix was used for the walls. The contractor had to take it down and start over again. Without diligent, well paid, educated civil servants, lots of things slip through the cracks.

[bucolic_frolic]

37. It must be that some or most owners/landlords do maintenance and repairs.

Some do consider the value of their properties as opposed to the short term costs.

[Glaisne]

38. Yep,

conservatives don't listen to experts. Look at what happened during the pandemic. It's happening now with climate change and things will collapse just like that building did.

[Initech]

43. I found this meme at the start of the pandemic:

And it holds true for just about everything!

[Binkie The Clown]

39. With all the buildings, bridges, dams, and highways that are on the verge of failure...

... who has time to check them all out, let alone do anything about them. America is crumbling right before our eyes, and rising oceans and increasing heat are only going to make it worse.

[Initech]

44. Oh this thing is going to end like Fight Club.

[Wingus Dingus]

46. I guess I don't really know what I'm looking at in those photos--

I see some rusted steel exposed where the concrete crumbled away in the first photo, so if a lot of the building was like that, then that would be alarming. As far as needing pumps to remove water, either rain water or pool water or salt water, I assume a lot of Florida (and New Orleans, and anywhere low-lying) is like that. They obviously had drainage issues, and salt water corrosion issues, and deferred maintenance issues, and none of that is good, but all sorts of buildings have issues and they don't suddenly collapse into the ground. I wonder if the more-rapid rate of the building sinking (that was noted by geologists compared to other structures) meant that the fill or limestone underneath was collapsing into voids far below, rather than just compressing? That's my thoroughly uninformed opinion.

[bluecollar2]

51. Your thoroughly uninformed opinion

Has as much validity as anyone else's at this juncture.

I suspect that this will turn out to be a combination of failures, both human and physical, much like most aircraft accidents.

[msongs]

47. what in those 2 pics shows imminent collapse? I see peeling paint and poorly place wiring

some peeling paint and perhaps mold and mildew

[bluecollar2]

54. Concrete has completely failed in the left picture.

Blow up the picture and look at the top of it.

That's a major structural failure taking place.

[JohnnyRingo]

52. I'm sure this condo was built on bribes.

they call it cutting through the red tape to get something done, I call it government malfeasance and corruption.

I'd bet a dollar that this will come down to a developer getting exclusive permission to build on swampland. Watch state bureaucrats who look askance while whistling a distracting tune.

[Skittles]

56. I thought exactly that when I read about a "40 year evaluation"

forty years? for a building on the COAST OF FLORIDA?

[Quixote1818]

57. There were no dire warnings. Just a few concerns brought up

Last edited Tue Jun 29, 2021, 05:47 PM - Edit history (1)

They recommended patching up cracks but this building probably needed to be condemned. The rebar was probably shot years ago. Patching cracks would not have solved the problem, it needed a major overhaul. The DU post about how major regulations are forced in MA and other states is what would have prevented this. The 2018 report by a single engineer was too small a look to really uncover how bad things were and by having Gov oversight with teeth every few years like in MA, landlords are REQUIRED to do little things early that prevent something catastrophic from forming over time like what occurred here.

[Evolve Dammit]

59. Let's see the owners of this structure try to justify not making repairs. Sure they are lawyered up

[Zeitghost]

65. Many of the owners

Are now dead. This was a condo building, not an apartment building.

[Warpy]

63. Why did the part of the vuilding fronting on Collins Ave NOT collapse?

Looking at that part of the building will yield some answers, too. Even after nearly a week and high winds, it's still stubbornly standing.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the bottom line for the report will be "don't build huge high rises on barrier islands," which will be completely ignore, especially in Florida.

[LAS14]

66. I keep wondering how many people have contacted our condo board....

... to find out how much we know about the foundation of our twelve story building, built in the 1980's, sitting at the crest of a very steep 3 or 4 story hill. I've always had brief wonderments about that hill collapsing... Ah well. Glad we're not built on sand. Or are we????

[Klaralven]

67. They have been fairly recently built

The first condo in the US was built in Utah in 1960.

So the oldest one is 60 years old, although older apartment buildings and industrial buildings have undoubtedly been converted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium

[pjpossum]

72. There are probably many locations across the US that have hidden problems.

A friend was getting his master's degree in architecture when The Staples Center in Los Angeles was being built. His class was given a private tour. He told me that many concrete slabs that should have been level with each other were uneven. He had other concerns, too. He also told me that they opened the venue without a working fire sprinkler system, which was against the law. I attended one of the first concerts there (Springsteen). I ran into someone that I knew who was working as an usher. I mentioned the sprinkler system to her. She confirmed that they were not yet working. The City & Venue representatives made a big deal that the venue was completed much faster than anticipated. I wonder at what possible future cost.

[TomSlick]

75. I would have expected LA to run a tighter ship about building regulation.

It's not surprising that there is no effective regulation or inspection in Florida or Texas but I'm really surprised about LA.

[pjpossum]

104. A year or two ago

an individual who worked at the Office of Building and Safety was arrested for taking bribes for permits.

[TomSlick]

107. That would explain it.

[pjpossum]

110. A current council person is under indictment fromthe FBI.

There appears to be a long trail of bribery that involves big developers and certain downtown properties.

[uponit7771]

73. Same in Texas with that one crop storage bin

[mopinko]

80. i worked construction in those days.

a lot of the guys who couldnt pass the math test to get in the union went south.
anyone who could swing a hammer and work in the heat could get as many hours as they wanted.

and yeah, i heard stories about all the ways to trick inspectors.
i was an apprentice carpenter, but i worked under the onsite engineer. i kept an eye on the rebar and the concrete.
we ran a clean job, but a lot of the iron workers had worked on the braidwood nuke plant.
that job was turbo charged, and shit slipped through.

[panader0]

87. One thing that may be a factor that has not been discussed much is

the rise of the ocean water. The "rock" under Florida is limestone which is quite porous.
It is seeping further into the substrata, especially as fresh water is pumped out for the
growing population and agriculture.
Perhaps the rise of the oceans has been discussed, but I missed it.

[LAS14]

88. Yes, here and there, the replacement of fresh water in the limestone with salt. nt

[malthaussen]

89. Don't even need ammonium nitrate.

Although I wonder, given the laxness of some of our inspectorates, if there isn't a nice little bomb or three waiting to go off in some port or other.

-- Mal

[WarGamer]

95. I don't think that's saltwater

More likely leaking swimming pool.

Long term saltwater accumulation would leave massive salt formation.

[Initech]

97. Yeah I'm guessing they spent zero on pool maintenance.

[WarGamer]

98. evidently not enough ;)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

99. It will be half dozen things, but the final factor may be rising sea & salt infiltration

1) Multiple causes usually factor into things.

2) Global climate change is a factor we are loading onto many creaky things and creaky situations that are on the edge. The final factor might not be much be it will be enough in an increasing set of events.

[shenmue]

101. Inspectors are good.

[Renew Deal]

114. The reason this happens is the same reason a lot of bad things happen, we assume competence.

9/11, 1/6, and many other things. We assume that someone is paying attention, competent, and always willing to do the right thing. In reality, people are trying to do enough to not get fired, are dealing with constrained budgets, and assume competence in other parts of the system that doesn’t exist.