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TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
Mon Jul 5, 2021, 10:33 PM Jul 2021

"America Will Never Be A Socialist Country." How Often Has Your Head Exploded Over This Trope?

You've heard everyone use it, from the Orange Turd himself, to Abigail Spanberger (D-Va). The word 'socialism' has been used to bludgeon progressive politicians for nearly a century now, and I'm getting sick of it. If I love Bernie Sanders for anything, it was his refusal to RUN AWAY from the word. Something which takes half the power out of using it as a weapon.

But even this isn't the truth. The truth is that BOTH Sweden and the United States are MIXED ECONOMIES. A mixture of free market (not capitalism, which is different)...a mixture of free market venture, AND PUBLIC ventures. The only difference between the two is deciding where the line should be drawn between private and public ventures.

In Sweden they draw the line for things that should be public around healthcare, universities, and daycare. In the United States, the line for things that should be public INCLUDES universities, but NOT healthcare (more or less), and daycare. But the United States still includes plenty of PUBLIC programs, or we wouldn't have a two trillion dollar a year budget.

The idea that the earth will crack open, all hell will break loose, and we'll all start reciting from Mao's little red book if we suddenly decide that healthcare and daycare should be included in the PUBLIC column, instead of the private column is bullshit, and needs to be called out as such.

They tried to tell us that's what would happen if the United States ever adopted MEDICARE. REAGAN was famous for sending around that stupid PROPAGANDA record in the early 60s, claiming that 'our children would wake up in a communist country' if the United States adopted MEDICARE. That was a standard Republican SCARE tactic. Once it actually happened, everyone found out it wasn't really that bad. In fact, most people LOVE their Medicare.

My advice to Democrats would be to stop playing into the 'socialism' language of these fearmongers, and start talking about MIXED FREE MARKET ECONOMIES instead. That's what the United States is, as well as every other developed country.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"America Will Never Be A Socialist Country." How Often Has Your Head Exploded Over This Trope? (Original Post) TrollBuster9090 Jul 2021 OP
"Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made sop Jul 2021 #1
Farm price supports are a big one. Prof. Toru Tanaka Jul 2021 #13
Unsolicited advice? JohnSJ Jul 2021 #2
Good idea I_UndergroundPanther Jul 2021 #3
I always say KentuckyWoman Jul 2021 #4
Problem is too many rubes equate Russia/China with Socialism. Hoyt Jul 2021 #5
Socialism is good. David__77 Jul 2021 #6
+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2021 #7
Kick for truth luckone Jul 2021 #8
People with any sense know that social democracies work. brush Jul 2021 #9
When did they stop calling themselves Democratic Socialists? brooklynite Jul 2021 #18
Maybe it's just me but it seems to me they haven't been so outspoken... brush Jul 2021 #22
3/19: "Bronx Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, best known as AOC, is DSA's foremost socialist" brooklynite Jul 2021 #23
Thanks. IMO it puts a ceiling on her Congressional/senate aspirations... brush Jul 2021 #24
Most people who are screaming this, don't know what real socialism is. Initech Jul 2021 #10
K & R Duppers Jul 2021 #11
"If I love Bernie Sanders for anything, it was his refusal to RUN AWAY from the word." Not really. betsuni Jul 2021 #12
Great post malaise Jul 2021 #14
This is why I occasionally refer to myself as an "Eisenhower socialist"... JHB Jul 2021 #15
Google list of social programs... Maxheader Jul 2021 #16
"Social" (adjective): relating to society or its organization brooklynite Jul 2021 #29
In one ear and out the other DFW Jul 2021 #17
When you try to redefine socialism as a positive term, you've Lready lost the debate. brooklynite Jul 2021 #19
The debate... ck4829 Jul 2021 #20
And those lines fail to work... brooklynite Jul 2021 #21
When you let the right wing frame everything aocommunalpunch Jul 2021 #25
No problem fighting; problem with self-labeling brooklynite Jul 2021 #26
The right wing is more than happy to label you aocommunalpunch Jul 2021 #27
I do label myself, I'm a liberal, I'm progressive... brooklynite Jul 2021 #28

sop

(10,156 posts)
1. "Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made
Mon Jul 5, 2021, 10:43 PM
Jul 2021

in the last 20 years. Socialism is what they called public power. Socialism is what they called social security. Socialism is what they called farm price supports. Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance. Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations. Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people." - Harry S. Truman, 1952

Prof. Toru Tanaka

(1,952 posts)
13. Farm price supports are a big one.
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 05:28 AM
Jul 2021

One that many Trumphumpers take for granted when they are able to get products like milk in the store for $2.09 a gallon.

I used that price because our nearest grocery store charges that price (their brand, they have a couple of other brands that are around $3.00-$3.50).
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
5. Problem is too many rubes equate Russia/China with Socialism.
Mon Jul 5, 2021, 10:57 PM
Jul 2021

Try educating people like that. Christ, trump would have made us a Russian territory, but the rubes still love him.

brush

(53,764 posts)
9. People with any sense know that social democracies work.
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 01:48 AM
Jul 2021

They are robust capitalist countries with strong safety nets for their populations. The thing is, magats and many voters from Latin countries still view socialism as toxic and republicans know that and use it and "defund the police", BLM and antifa to scare voters.

It worked in 2020 and we lost several seats in the House. Mixed free market economies is another way of saying social democracy but IMO it'll go over the heads of most magats, et al. And Bernie and AOC, thank God, have stopped referring to themselves as democratic socialists, a poor and vote losing choice of words to use if they really meant social democrats/mixed free market economists.

brush

(53,764 posts)
22. Maybe it's just me but it seems to me they haven't been so outspoken...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 12:19 PM
Jul 2021

about that lately. AOC especially since she was chastised by other House members after we lost several seats in 2020.

brooklynite

(94,502 posts)
23. 3/19: "Bronx Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, best known as AOC, is DSA's foremost socialist"
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 12:25 PM
Jul 2021
https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/aoc/

Apparently they didn't get the message?

brush

(53,764 posts)
24. Thanks. IMO it puts a ceiling on her Congressional/senate aspirations...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 12:35 PM
Jul 2021

as NY state is far from the deep blue of her district.

Initech

(100,063 posts)
10. Most people who are screaming this, don't know what real socialism is.
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 01:53 AM
Jul 2021

They are only mad about it because of what they hear on Fox and AM radio. That's it.

betsuni

(25,472 posts)
12. "If I love Bernie Sanders for anything, it was his refusal to RUN AWAY from the word." Not really.
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 04:30 AM
Jul 2021

He just tweaked history: "Sanders has convinced millions of Democrats that FDR was a democratic socialist and that his policies are democratic socialism," why people suddenly started referring to themselves as "FDR Democrats" and considered Sanders the successor to FDR, a True Democrat.

Anybody interested can read chapter 23 of Steven Stoft's "Ripped Apart":

http://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Ripped_Apart.html?id=Fk7SDwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

"Sanders' strategy is brilliant. It's helped him cover his socialist past by pretending a democratic socialist is just someone aligned with FDR. In this way he paints himself as a good FDR democratic socialist, even though there's no such thing. ... And because Sanders has convinced his followers that rejecting democratic socialism means rejecting FDR liberalism, they mistakenly view all knowledgeable Democrats as hostile to FDR liberalism. In fact, FDR is still our hero."

JHB

(37,158 posts)
15. This is why I occasionally refer to myself as an "Eisenhower socialist"...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 06:02 AM
Jul 2021

...in one-on-one conversations with someone who I think I might be able to plant a seed past the iron bubble.

The wildly expansive definition of "socialism"conservatives use these days, encompassing everything they don't like and even stuff they do like but don't think of it that way, used to be the stuff of ranting cranks. Maybe it was a guy on top of a box raving on a street corner, or muttering into his gin and tonics at the country club bar, or cranking out "communist conspiracy" pamphlets, but they were all nuts.

That crank definition covers so much ground it includes the USA during WW2 and the Cold War. Apparently we won those as a "socialist" country, as a "marxist" country. And every who argues that anything happening now is "socialist" or "marxist" believes the country they "want back" is the same "sociualist, marxist" country we had then.

It's all bullshit, of course, but jeez do they take offense when someone hints that the brown stuff they're spooning up isn't chocolate. Hell, they'll ask for seconds and eat more in front of you just to "own" you.

brooklynite

(94,502 posts)
29. "Social" (adjective): relating to society or its organization
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 02:28 PM
Jul 2021

"Socialism (noun): a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

DFW

(54,354 posts)
17. In one ear and out the other
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 07:20 AM
Jul 2021

I think of my current residence, Germany, and take three 50 year intervals. In 1893, no one could have predicted the Nazi regime and the horrors of World War II. In 1943, while the British and American bombers were starting to demolish their cities, no one in Germany could have predicted the tranquil, albeit somewhat reduced, Federal Republic of 1993. In the early 1980s, when Poland was showing some signs of unrest, Leonid Zamyatin, of the ruling elite of the Soviet Union, said Poland would always remain „socialist.“ Конечно, там, товарищ.

History rarely follows any individual‘s blueprint for very long.

ck4829

(35,049 posts)
20. The debate...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 08:28 AM
Jul 2021

Not wanting to get shot in school makes one a "communist pig"

Buying things before a blizzard is socialism.

Mitch McConnell says statehood for Puerto Rico is "full-bore socialism" (Whatever that means).

brooklynite

(94,502 posts)
21. And those lines fail to work...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 08:30 AM
Jul 2021

… until someone comes along and say “Yes I’m a socialist BUT…”

aocommunalpunch

(4,236 posts)
25. When you let the right wing frame everything
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 01:23 PM
Jul 2021

You’ll accept what you’re given. Fight for what you want and let them cry about it.

brooklynite

(94,502 posts)
28. I do label myself, I'm a liberal, I'm progressive...
Tue Jul 6, 2021, 02:26 PM
Jul 2021

I'm not a socialist. I see no value in redefining a useless term when there are plenty of other words that work better.

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