The rhetoric is increasingly hysterical on Fox and elsewhere. Where are we headed? Civil war?

[skip fox]

Fox was screaming yesterday, apropos "critical race theory" that the window is closing before they lose a generation of children to pernicious beliefs about their nation and themselves.

This a.m. Fox & Friends was supportive of people buying more arms (tacitly encouraging them to "arm up" ) due to the increasing crime rate.

The t.v. screen screams "Biden Border Crisis" before a Fox segment on the "explosion" of illegal immigrants with following stories of crimes committed by these "illegals."

All day. All night. With only brief interludes (e.g., Chris Wallace, an anchor yesterday encouraging vaccinations). Fox hammers away, seven days a week, and from the clips I've seen of OAN and Newsmax they are doing the same, only worse.

I had a long conversation with a friend and well respected novelist yesterday, and she thinks we're headed to another civil war. I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far, in part because geographic alignments are clears. But then the war could take an entirely different form the last. (We're both in our mid-to-late 70s so our stakes in the future are probably not the same as yours.)

I'm sure many of the militias are in contact with each other and likely with some members of law enforcement and the military as well.

But it does seem like we are approaching a "tipping point" politically even as we approach one environmentally. Or maybe we have stepped over in both regards.

What do you think?

(And why are Republican State legislators pushing for conceal carry rights without permits or training as here in Louisiana?)

[Demsrule86]

1. Seriously, the play soldiers would be wiped out. There will be no civil war.

[skip fox]

7. It might not looklike our last one but could someone overthrow our government

by intimidating Democratic candidates for office and potential or sitting jurists (likely killing a few in the process)? Abolishing or impeding certain governmental agencies by force of arms?

I don't know how a "mushroom" civil war would look. Maybe more like the take-over of Germany by National Socialists in the 1930s.

[Demsrule86]

19. No, more likely they do it in Congress and I am no sure how many would go along with it.

[Jedi Guy]

17. "Seriously, the play soldiers would be wiped out."

In a standup fight, that'd definitely be the case. But it's not going to be a standup fight. It'll be guerilla warfare and/or low-intensity direct conflict. Bear in mind that guys hiding in caves with old Soviet AKs were able to stymie the US military in Afghanistan. A dedicated insurgency is nothing to sneer at, as both Iraq and Afghanistan proved. If the nutters go all in, it'll be bloody for both sides.

[Demsrule86]

20. It is not going to happen...IMHO. The technology available will wipe them out.

[Jedi Guy]

22. The tech didn't wipe out the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I don't think a homegrown insurgency in the US would win, but putting them out of commission certainly wouldn't be a cakewalk for the good guys.

[localroger]

34. There is a fundamental difference in motivation

You even see it in the fallout after Jan 6. When insurgents have prevailed against us in asymmetric warfare, it's because they had soldiers who knew they had nothing to lose. It was an existential matter for them. They weren't yucking it up to puff up their egos, they were avenging their fallen friends and their destroyed houses and hoping one day to have a home where they could feel safe again.

These weekend warriors will quickly get tired of sleeping in the woods and eating tinned food. There will be a few hardcore, dedicated, and skilled enough to make a lot of trouble, but they will be overwhelmed as Eric Rudolph finally was. Most of them will quickly realize that running and hiding from people more numerous and even better armed than they are isn't as much fun as it looked in Red Dawn. There are no convenient borders separating one side from the other as there were in the Civil War, nor are there convenient tribal markers separating us as there were in Rwanda. They will not be afforded the dignity of being considered enemy combatants as even the Viet Cong were; to the government, the police, and the general public they will simply be criminals and instead of glorious martyrdom they will find themselves in the same jails with thieves and rapists.

It has the potential to get a lot worse before it gets any better, but I don't think it will ever become anything resembling a civil war. Even something like Ireland under the Troubles seems unlikely, because I just don't think these guys will stay all that dedicated to the cause when it stops being fun.

[Oneironaut]

57. You know that they're dumbasses because their strategy is to go into the woods.

Seriously - every one of these meth-mouthed losers thinks that they can go and hide in the woods, which hasn’t been a viable military strategy since the year 1980.

They are a sad bunch. They can’t do jack shit, and would mostly die of exposure and starvation if they hadn’t given up yet before any military response was necessary. The ones that aren’t like this are just LARPers that flash guns at protests so that we can see what big strong men they are.

[Elessar Zappa]

45. The maga jokers

don’t have it in them for a protracted conflict. They’d fold once they got a few casualties.

[Jedi Guy]

49. Some might. Some might not. Underestimate their insanity at your own peril. N/T

[Elessar Zappa]

50. Sorry, I'm not afraid of them.

You can be if you want to.

[Jedi Guy]

51. I'm not afraid of them either. I live in Canada, so unless they flood the border I'm all good.

But ignoring the threat their lunacy represents to individuals and the country is unwise, IMO. YMMV.

[Elessar Zappa]

52. I don't deny the threat they pose,

which is corrupting our system under a veneer of legality. But I’m not worried about outside of the law chaos.

[joetheman]

35. It takes two to fight. They will just be locked up. Nobody is going to war with idiots who would

not know how to handle a "win" anyway. Maybe some will "self-deport" to Russia or Turkey or Saudi Arabia or N.Korea? And ALL law enforcement and military who are caught trying this shit should not only be locked up but have all retirement and other benefits, including survivor benefits revoked permanently and they should never be able to hold a job of public trust ever in the USA.

[leftstreet]

2. They've lost so much money since Trump's been gone

No doubt all media in the same spot

[Elessar Zappa]

3. No civil war.

More frequent domestic terror attacks are likely however.

[blm]

4. The rabid reactionaries who now control the Republican Party

have had a goal of Civil War in mind for over 4 decades. This is the closest they have gotten.

[hlthe2b]

5. Guerilla warfare, perhaps. A series of violent attacks by small extremist gangs on unpredictable

and unannounced targets...

We've had decades to address the rise of domestic extremism and terrorism, but allowed an RW-enabling Congress to prevent our even discussing it.

[unweird]

27. Aren't we already there?

Don’t we already have that type of activity being seen?

[PsakiPswirli]

6. Malcolm Nance

Malcolm Nance, the man who has been right about everything two years ahead of the MSM, thinks it's a real possibility. What is not mentioned - liberals/progressives have 2nd amendment rights, also. And brains. Probably won't post everything they do. Just sayin '.

[skip fox]

9. Hell, I can't even havve a gun if I want my daughter and her kids to visit.

Her rule.

I even hide my bb gun when they come to town.

[Ocelot II]

8. There will be no civil war like the one in the 1860s.

That conflict involved the attempted secession of defined states, organized into a purported country with a formal army. Our current divisions are not as clearly geographic; while there are areas that are politically unified, they are scattered, and the most obvious division is urban vs. rural. This situation doesn't lend itself to a Yankees vs. Rebels sort of war. What could develop, though, is something like the Troubles in Northern Ireland during the '60s-'80s - incidents of guerilla warfare against various political and government targets.

[skip fox]

11. Or a "mushroom" civil war of continual terrorist attacks

and intimidation of governmental officials and the judiciary.

Or maybe something like Germany in the mid-to-late late 1930s.

I was thinking about the geographic determinants of the last civil war and the differences that exist today, but didn't want to clutter the O.P.

[Kaleva]

31. In Mi, the majority of votes for TFG came from counties considered urban

Trump got more votes in Wayne County (metro-Detroit) alone then he did in all the rural counties in Upper Michigan and much of northern lower Michigan combined.

[Elessar Zappa]

46. The urban Trump voters

are way outnumbered by the Democrats. Absolute numbers are irrelevant.

[skip fox]

53. Right.

But if liars in the legislatures, using the new laws, overturn the actual votes . . .

[Kaleva]

56. It is absolute numbers that win states.

"In MI, Former Guy got a 75% of his vote from the mostly urban counties.

He got more votes in Wayne County (Detroit) then in all the counties in Upper Michigan and many of the northern counties in lower Michigan combined.

"Crunching numbers. 75% of the Trump vote came from the 27 counties considered "Mostly urban"

25% of the vote Trump got came from the 56 counties considered "All rural" or "Mostly rural".

https://www.mlive.com/news/2016/12/michigans_urban_rural_divide_o.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Michigan"

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15397910

the reality is that there are far more TFG supporters in the urban and mostly urban counties then there are in the rural or mostly rural counties of Michigan. i suspect the same holds true in many of the other so-called battleground states.

[patphil]

10. We're getting closer to that time in August when Trump thinks he'll be reinstalled as president.

So, are they're ginning up the mob in preparation for a summer of violence?
Or are they just trying to increase their market share, by taking advantage of the unrealistic expectations of the Trump base?
Probably both.

[skip fox]

12. For them, it's "win-win.

[patphil]

13. Yup. It's all about the money.

[PsakiPswirli]

14. Yes -

and yes.

[Turbineguy]

15. Tucker and Hannity will lead them

just like trump was the first one over the barricades on Jan 6.

[dawg day]

16. The GOP has no policy concerns or plans

Even something that is an actual issue-- immigration and border problems-- is just a spit-flecked ranting point for them.

They have no proposals, no insights, no data. It's all just cynical ranting meant to incite useless anger.

And it's completely counter-productive. If they really cared about protecting the borders or making more rational immigration policy, the last thing they'd do is incite violence and militarize the border with temporary and illegal NG assignments.

It's really pretty appalling. It's not a political organization anymore. It's like "the political wing of Fox News."

It's "Rupert Murdoch's lobbyists."

[2naSalit]

18. There is also a large contingent...

Setting up strongholds in the mountains in my area. I went for a drive with a friend last weekend and the mountain range we visited four years ago that was mostly uninhabited is now riddled with houses going up with TFG flags flying at the end of their driveways. Most look like they are expecting to be overrun by somebody. The fun fact is that they are building in areas with a 40% standing dead wood zones so when the fires spark up, they will be roasted along with their cover.

The sparse water is already fouled with too many cattle in the area, all the streams are giardia laden and you can't even get out of your vehicle without being immediately swarmed by biting flies that come with the cattle. It was horrible and I will never go to visit that mountain range again. I was looking to photograph wildflowers but couldn't get a clean shot for the movement of fighting off the bugs attacking my eyes, nose and mouth.

Montana is spoiled with the ignorant actions of an ignorant group of fascists. I think I have to go someplace else to live out the rest of my days.

[Koch Ebola]

21. I also ask the question

[skip fox]

25. It doesn't happen until it does.

I hope you're right as I read you (that people are over-reacting, entertainingly and satirically well-rendered), but I'm keeping my eyes open.

[ScratchCat]

23. It makes nice sound bites

For the yocals to "tell" the liberal media. But at the end of the day, its just malcontents bitching. Real life simply doesn't reflect the fantasy they want us to believe. Nobody is going to throw away their children's future because the current President is a different party than the last one(Who was a different party that the one before, who was.. you get it).

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

24. Small towns in the rural west can be taken over quickly by the

fascists. The cops may even help them, or do nothing. Fascist Governors in these states may even refuse to call in their respective National Guards.

There are huge areas of the rural west where towns are many miles apart. A coordinated effort by the fascists puts the respective National Guards of each of these states at a significant strategic disadvantage. The heavily armed fascists could easily take over these small towns, and occupy them, holding the unarmed citizenry hostage, and restrict the flow of traffic in and out.

Even though the violent fascists will be greatly outnumbered by rational folks, the fascists are heavily armed, many with illegal automatic weapons. Towns would forced to quickly surrender to the fascists. It is worth noting that many of them are survivalists, and have large stockpiles of supplies.

Under this nightmare scenario, the US military would have to be called in, and house to house combat could become necessary.

Fortunately, their supply lines and means of communication can be quickly and easily shut down. No Fox News, no hate radio, no ONN, no fascist propaganda whatsoever. No twinkies, no pizza, no Chik-Fil-A, no football, no cheap beer to chase the meth, no gas for their gas guzzling pick ups.

Much damage would be done. Innocent lives lost would be lost.

Ultimately, these out of shape dumb shit couch potato warriors would transform into puddles of sniveling, quivering melted chicken fat. They would go to prison for life, and the GOP would be at last relegated to the dustbin of history.

[skip fox]

26. From your lips . . .

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

60. What many people in urban and suburban areas don't see is that

the fascists are organizing under the radar. The FBI is infiltrating their organizations, but current federal resources are no match for the numbers necessary to prevent fascist caused catastrophe.

BIG VALLEY: California Proud Boys use secretive network to promote 'their white supremacist agenda' -- and go largely unscathed

But as the weight of state prosecution and media scrutiny bears down on the national leadership, the organization remains active and viable in many parts of the country — an indication that the future of the violent nationalist gang in the Biden era might focus on deepening engagement with local fights rather than highly publicized national-scale operations. California's Central Valley, where a 275-mile span of Highway 99 from Sacramento to Bakersfield allows members from various Proud Boys chapters to reinforce each other in varied local confrontations with leftist adversaries, provides one example.

Alliances forged by Proud Boys with both local GOP activists and law enforcement have been challenged by the fallout over Jan. 6, but not completely undone, and in some cases new ties have blossomed. And while dozens of Californians have been charged in the breach of the Capitol, Proud Boys in the Central Valley have remained largely unscathed by the prosecutions, with the exception of Ricky Christopher Willden, a Madera County member with a history of clashing with leftists who was arrested by the FBI on June 30.

While continuing to forge ties GOP activists, law enforcement and an anti-LGBTQ crusader, Proud Boys in the Central Valley have interjected themselves in an array of local fights, including opposing police accountability and joining forces with an annual "Straight Pride" rally in Modesto, and counter-protesting residents trying to preserve an LGBTQ-friendly theater in Fresno. They provided security for the Recall Gavin Newsom event in Bakersfield in February. Further south, in Orange County, Proud Boys joined a May 11 protest outside the Los Alamitos USD School Board to oppose adoption of new "social justice standards."

"There was a widespread belief that the legal crackdown would really hamper the group in its ability to organize or lead to its demise," said Cassie Miller, a senior research analyst at the Southern Poverty Law Center. "The problem is this group is so massive and well networked and there are so many chapters across the country that have autonomy that its network and organizing model have stayed in place. We've continued to see them involved in local organizing, much as in the past. There's been some strategic shift. People are interested in running for office. But they're still holding public rallies that descend into violence."

https://www.rawstory.com/proud-boys-california/

This is no joke. It is happening all over the rural west.

[skip fox]

61. A very valuable post! Thanks. n/t

[crickets]

62. Great post and article.

Proud Boys is an SPLC designated hate group
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys

Canada designates the Proud Boys as a terrorist entity
https://apnews.com/article/canada-proud-boys-terrorist-group-510b8cd8286f1207a726904f61e63e4d

[triron]

28. I think a coalition of blue states including California and New York (and D.C.) should just form a

new nation. Tell the red states 'good luck'.

[stillcool]

29. I don't know where we are

but I've never been here before. This place does not resemble my country. Those states hell-bent on doing the most audacious crap possible are not doing it for nothing. They seem to be coordinating the bullshit amongst each other, hell-bent on stoking anger. To what end?

[Kaleva]

30. Anyone believing a civil war is coming is preparing for it. What are you doing?

I myself am not doing any preparation for an event that I don't believe is coming.

I do believe there's a chance, a very small one, that the house could catch on fire so I've put in smoke detectors, have fire extinguishers on each floor and an emergency fire escape ladder in the master bedroom located on the 2nd floor.

[skip fox]

33. At 74 there is not much I can do except keep my eyes open and comment.

[Kaleva]

40. Ok. A valid point.

At 62, I'm concentrating my efforts on preparing for what climate change will bring to the area I live in. When I first started doing this, I didn't expect to be around when things began to get biblical so my goal was to help out my stepkids and grandchildren. Now it appears that I will see it.

[skip fox]

41. Re: climate change. I've made the same conclusion.

And my friend, a highly respected novelist, thinks so too. She's in her late 70s but feels a sense of responsibility and duty to others and the earth.

[Treefrog]

32. You sure watch Fox a lot.

I couldn’t stand a minute of it.

[GoodRaisin]

43. I see Fox headlines daily on the Directv Newsmix channel

Newsmix displays 4 channels simultaneously. CNN, MSNBC, BBC, and Fox. So, while I'm listening to one of the other 3, I can see the headline banners on Fox, and occasionally select Fox to listen to if something looks interesting - to see what they are spinning or lying about to their audience. And, what the OP is saying is precisely what I'm seeing. As you watch all 4 screens at once, and their headlines, it jumps out at you that Fox viewers are presented with a different world than the rest of us live in. A false world.

Everybody on DU knows what Fox is. Many don't want to ever listen to that - they already know Fox spreads propaganda and hate. But those who tune in every now and then capture the very essence of how destructive Fox really is. It's some bad shit, and it's quite literally cutting off half the country from reality.

[sarisataka]

36. I think people on TV

Talk alot and the analysts go to the extreme because that is what will keep viewers coming back.

There is a small minority who will swallow it hook line and sinker. They will go out and do something stupid then that one act will be blown out of proportion to support that the extreme stance is true and widespread.

[H2O Man]

37. Recommended.

I agree with you. The truth is that if you get on a certain path and continue to travel it, you will reach the destination. The alt-right is rapidly moving along that road, and preparing for civil war.

One thing I'd say is important is that it isn't "likely" the militias are in contact with segments of law enforcement and the military. Indeed, January 6 events document their leadership roles in militias. Obviously, that doesn't mean everyone in law enforcement and the military. Equally obvious, only a small percentage are required, as relatively recent world history shows.

[Elessar Zappa]

48. I don't believe

for a second that the Maga assholes have what it takes to wage a long term conflict. Once their food and tv goes bye bye they’ll go back cowering under whatever rock they came from.

[traitorsgalore]

38. I think about where we're headed every single day

Here's 2 scenarios:

1: Nov 2022 elections are overturned by corrupted R states (how many we don't know yet) and they install their own puppet officials. It could be up to 22 states that are currently passing laws that allow puppets to be installed if the R suggest there's some sort of election problems. It could be just a few states like Texas, Wisconsin, Arizona and Florida. Regardless of how many states do it, the U.S. economy will crash, mass hoarding will take place and fear will reign like it has during Covid only about 10 times worse and uncertainty for the entire country's future will scare the hell out of everyone. The "Courts" will have to decide the legality of all the R's bullshit but the Rs won't wait for or even allow that, they'll secede from the U.S.. That would be fantastic as it would cement Rs in history as the traitors to the U.S. they are.

2: The FBI, Congress, the courts and many local officials crack down on all the election tampering efforts and by Nov 2022 we have fair elections, or as "fair" as they can be considering all the R states corruption. Democrats remain in power and continue with the Biden agenda and strengthen election laws. Rs fade further into Qanut oblivion and right-wing domestic terrorist groups are permanently classified as terrorists, as they should have been all along.

Neither of these scenarios involves civil war primarily because nobody in blue states, including me, would want to do anything to get corrupted R traitor states back into the U.S.. If we get to the point of some states seceding, the attitude will be "good, let 'em go, see how they like it without us". Then, there would be massive resistance to letting them back into the U.S. which would force the corrupted R traitor states to become democracies again.

Lastly, I suspect there will be numerous right-wing terrorist attacks over the next couple of years until it all comes to a peak in Nov. 2022. Each time people will talk about civil war and secession, further laying the groundwork for the Rs final move in Nov. 2022.

[skip fox]

39. Welcome to DU.

I didn't understand your last sentence. Everything else made sense, but it seemed to imply just talking about the possibility of civil war (as in the O.P.) encourages its enactment. I'm pretty sure this was not meant because we've (the whole country_ have to keep our eyes open to its possibility in order to avoid it.

[DFW]

42. The government should be so prepared for an insurrection that none would ever be dared

Remember Spain, 1936. Never again.

Debate all you want. Rant all you want. Take up arms against the country, and get responded to in kind by a vastly superior force instructed to protect the country against "enemies, domestic," which you would then be.

[GoodRaisin]

44. I think it's a cold civil war and we are already in it. nt

[CrackityJones75]

55. I have no idea why people can't see this.

Our democracy is already under attack.

[Mr.Bill]

47. Never forget the best weapon they have

is us fearing them.

On another note, don't think for one moment that the Feds have not infiltrated these groups.

[Oneironaut]

54. There's gonna be a civil war! REEEEE1!!1! - Trumpanzees

They long for the day they can final live out their Red Dawn mental masturbation fantasy, when in reality, all they do is sit on the couch and eat Cheetos.

Even Bill Maher was promoting this hysteria. There can’t be a civil war because they can’t even get past step 1 - having an actual army. There won’t be a Libtard genocide - the hardass Breitbart gun humpers are going to be disappointed.

[Maru Kitteh]

58. Canada is looking better every day, if we could flee one-third of

the bigotry and stupidity, what an improvement that would be.

[Hortensis]

59. They're yelling because they have lost the younger generations of conservatives.

Their culture wars are against the beliefs of a majority of young conservatives, not just liberals. They have no intention of changing to suit them. They chose to put an end to democracy instead