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NNadir

(33,512 posts)
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 11:55 AM Jul 2021

Graphic Update On How We're Doing With Carbon Dioxide.

My working number for the amount of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide we dump each year, carbon dioxide being only one component for such waste, not quite the deadliest yet, but getting there, has been 35 billion metric tons per year. Being a lazy sort of person, I just let that number, gleaned from general reading, gel in my head for a number of years, without searching out a formal reference to support that number. I kept muttering to myself that I really should update that number, but I didn't do it.

I had an inkling that I might be out of date - old people get used to being "out of date," - when I attended a lecture by Dr. Robert Kopp of Rutgers University a few years ago, this one: Science on Saturday: Managing Coastal Risk in an Age of Sea-level Rise. Dr. Kopp gave a higher figure in his lecture, and in the QA, I questioned him on it and he pointed to the issue of land use. Later, I see in my notes, I emailed him for a reference, and he graciously responded the reference which provides the graphic below, but somehow I forgot about it -


This morning, going through a journal I read regularly, Environmental Science and Technology, and came across this paper, which posits that we could do better than capturing 90% of the carbon dioxide we release, and find some place to dump it eternally, although there is zero evidence that we have ever come remotely close to doing so, and zero evidence that we could find a place to dump hundreds of billions of tons of this waste, permanently, ultimately trillions of tons in such a way that no one on Earth, irrespective of their level of education, could ever imagine it ever escaping and injuring anyone at any time in the future stretching for the entire tenure of the human race on this planet. The paper's first reference is the one that Dr. Kopp shared with me some time ago while I continued to lazily mutter, "35 billion tons a year." I'll produce the nice graphic from that reference shortly.

That paper is here: Deep CCS: Moving Beyond 90% Carbon Dioxide Capture (Matthew N. Dods, Eugene J. Kim, Jeffrey R. Long, and Simon C. Weston, Environmental Science & Technology 2021 55 (13), 8524-8534)) Three of the authors are from UC Berkeley, one, Dr. Weston, is from, unsurprisingly, Exxon.

The financial disclosure statement in the paper reads as follows:

The authors declare the following competing financial interest(s): J.R.L. has a financial interest in and serves on the board of directors of Mosaic Materials, a start-up company working to commercialize metal-organic frameworks for gas separations.


Exxon, which funded this work, apparently claims it has no financial interest in this paper, since it has been able, for free, at no cost, to dump vast quantities of dangerous fossil fuel waste into the planetary atmosphere, where such waste from Exxon and other companies, kills millions of people per year, and is completely destroying the planetary atmosphere, although Exxon has spent huge amounts of money claiming, weakly and transparently, that this is no big deal.

Note that this standard I applied above to the capture and storage of dangerous fossil fuel waste above, is the standard that people apply to so called "nuclear waste." People who have no idea about the nature and composition of used nuclear fuels, which in the United States, after more than half a century of operation, amounts to around 80 thousand metric tons. To repeat, that standard is:

...in such a way that no one on Earth, irrespective of their level of education, could ever imagine it ever escaping and injuring anyone at any time in the future, stretching for the entire tenure of the human race on this planet.


People who complain loudly about so called "nuclear waste," never apply this standard and ask this question about dangerous fossil fuel waste when they start their cars in the morning. I am acutely aware of this.

Eighty thousands is written in scientific format 8 X 10^(4). The rate at which used nuclear fuel is becoming available to future generations increased for many years, and has regrettably leveled off but the average accumulation per year, over say, 64 years, beginning with the Shippenport Nuclear Power Plant - which was located on ground that is now a public park - in 1957, up to the present day, amounts to about 1200 tons per year, in scientific notation, 1.2 X 10^(3). By the way, in scientific notation, 35 billion tons, my lazy figure, is 3.5 X 10^(10). The ratio of 10^(10) and 10^(3) is 10^(7), or ten million. Each year, according to my lazy figure, we dump, at no charge to the dumper, ten million times as much dangerous fossil fuel waste on the planet as a whole, than the United States has been accumulating, on average - although the current rate is much higher than the average rate - of used nuclear fuel, so called "nuclear waste."

There is about 4000 tons of used nuclear fuel at the idle San Onofre Nuclear Plant in California. It has killed none of the surfers who routinely surf just beyond the plants borders. The composition of this used fuel is roughly between 95% and 96% actinide elements, chiefly uranium, with about 1% being plutonium, and smaller amounts of the valuable elements neptunium, americium, and perhaps trace amounts of curium. If one assumes a working figure of 200 Mev/fission for these actinides, which works out to 80 trillion joules per kg, one can calculate that the energy value of the actinides available at this single shut plant is on the order of 300 exajoules, the energy consumption very roughly of the entire United States for just under 3 years.

Yet people who know very little about what so called "nuclear waste" is and who couldn't care less about its spectacular record of over more than half a century of killing very few people, in any, and also couldn't care less about what to do with the dangerous fossil fuel waste released when they start their engines, dangerous fossil fuel waste having killed hundreds of millions of people since 1957 when the Shippenport reactor came on line, claim "nobody knows what to do with nuclear waste."

They could disabuse themselves of this notion by opening science books and scientific papers, but that's too much to ask.

I have no room to talk: I lazily use the figure of "35 billion tons" for the amount of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide dumped each year, for free albeit at the expense of every living thing, including human beings, forever, by humanity.

The figure in Weston et al, Weston of Exxon, is 40 billion tons per year, not 35 billion tons. What's 5 billion tons between friends?

I'm such a lazy person.

The reference in Weston et al, which Dr. Kopp shared with my lazy ass two years ago, albeit probably to an earlier version of this series is this one: Global Carbon Budget 2019 (Earth Syst. Sci. Data, 11, 1783–1838, 2019) This paper is open sourced, and the list of authors and their institutions is too long to repeat, which is understandable, given the magnitude of the task of figuring this matter out.

The promised graphic is this one:



The caption:

Figure 3Combined components of the global carbon budget illustrated in Fig. 2 as a function of time, for fossil CO2 emissions (EFF, grey) and emissions from land use change (ELUC, brown), as well as their partitioning among the atmosphere (GATM, blue), ocean (SOCEAN, turquoise), and land (SLAND, green). The partitioning is based on nearly independent estimates from observations (for GATM) and from process model ensembles constrained by data (for SOCEAN and SLAND), and it does not exactly add up to the sum of the emissions, resulting in a budget imbalance, which is represented by the difference between the bottom pink line (reflecting total emissions) and the sum of the ocean, land, and atmosphere. All time series are in gigatonnes of carbon per year. GATM and SOCEAN prior to 1959 are based on different methods. EFF is primarily from Gilfillan et al. (2019), with uncertainty of about ±5?% (±1? ); ELUC is from two bookkeeping models (Table 2) with uncertainties of about ±50?%; GATM prior to 1959 is from Joos and Spahni (2008) with uncertainties equivalent to about ±0.1–0.15?GtC?yr?1 and from Dlugokencky and Tans (2019) from 1959 with uncertainties of about ±0.2?GtC?yr?1; SOCEAN prior to 1959 is averaged from Khatiwala et al. (2013) and DeVries (2014) with uncertainty of about ±30?% and from a multi-model mean (Table 4) from 1959 with uncertainties of about ±0.5?GtC?yr?1; SLAND is a multi-model mean (Table 4) with uncertainties of about ±0.9?GtC?yr?1. See the text for more details of each component and their uncertainties.


Note that this figure gives the values in elemental carbon, not carbon dioxide. The atomic weight of carbon is roughly 12, the molecular weight of carbon dioxide is roughly 44. This translates 12 billion tons of carbon to 43 billion tons of carbon dioxide.

I started paying some small attention to environmental issues when I read the very stupid paper by the very stupid anti-nuke Amory Lovins in 1976: Energy Strategy, the Road Less Traveled. Of course that the time I read it, I was a very stupid young man, as opposed to the very lazy, hopefully less stupid, old man I am now. Being credulous in my youth, I bought into the notion that the very stupid anti-nuke Amory Lovins was in fact, a "genius," a status applied by the media to him as a result of him being awarded the "MacAuthur Prize," the so called "Genius" award. Amory Lovins contention was that we could save the world with so called "renewable energy" and energy conservation, the latter claim expressing contempt for the billions of people who lacked any access to industrial energy then and now.

Of course, as a believer in the rhetoric of the very stupid anti-nuke Amory Lovins, I was anti-nuclear. I changed my view of nuclear energy to "not so bad," around 1988, after analyzing the scientific data available in the literature to which I had access, coming out of the Chernobyl disaster, which established the previously unknown, yet often evoked, "worst case."

I still believed that so called "renewable energy" was a good thing, probably for another decade or so.

I changed my mind about that as well, since this affectation has soaked up trillions of dollars, requiring vast amounts of dangerous fossil fuels to be burned to support it, vast wildernesses rendered into industrial parks, and huge mining operations to embrace it, all for no other result than making the situation get worse faster.

I think the case that this effort has been a failure is graphically indicated in the graphic above, which I have been too lazy to access.

Go figure.

But then again, this is the age of the celebration of the lie. After all, a cheap lying carney barker completely devoid of a trace of ethics and disinterested in matters of faith, was elected to the office once held by Abraham Lincoln, and celebrated by people who consider themselves "faithful" arbiters of morality, morality apparently consisting of vast faith in White Supremacy.

Of course, people have vast faith that so called "renewable energy" will save the world, a reactionary premise equivalent in my mind to the reactionary 19th century premise that White People, a vast cabal of murderers and imperialists, were morally superior to other people as they waited for Jesus to be resurrected. Now we are resurrecting the idea that by returning to the practices of the 18th century, when pretty much everyone lived on whatever "renewable energy" could provide, most people living short miserable lives of dire poverty, we will save the world.

So called "renewable energy" has not saved the world. It is, again, graphically as graphically shown above, not saving the world. My personal, albeit lazy, analysis suggests it will not save the world.

History will not forgive us; nor should it.

Have a nice weekend.
9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Graphic Update On How We're Doing With Carbon Dioxide. (Original Post) NNadir Jul 2021 OP
I have been following your crusade for some time, NNadir. Hugin Jul 2021 #1
The Sun WA-03 Democrat Jul 2021 #2
One number I've kept in my mind for years is... Hugin Jul 2021 #4
You will not find anyone as opposed to tidal energy as I am. NNadir Jul 2021 #9
Human survival may have to depend on nuclear power and desalination. dalton99a Jul 2021 #3
You might be able to WA-03 Democrat Jul 2021 #5
If we can get out of this mess (and I'm fairly pessimistic) it'll probably take a mix... Silent3 Jul 2021 #6
I disagree with this statement. NNadir Jul 2021 #7
Important malaise Jul 2021 #8

Hugin

(33,120 posts)
1. I have been following your crusade for some time, NNadir.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 12:41 PM
Jul 2021

Especially, lately given the increased relevance and attention the crisis has been getting.

Anyway, your discussions of a possible resurgence in the need for a nuclear option. Which, I agree with considering the energy density it could provide in displacing the fossil fuel contribution to the 15 terra-Watts of energy the global human population now consumes.

It prompted me to re-examine new energy sources, which in my current definition is heat or electrical power generated directly by a source instead of being a transfer or storage of energy generated by one of these primary sources. Which accounts for most of the energy available for use currently. Including fossil fuels. Which is an accumulation of primary energy from millions of years ago.

These are the primary sources I've come up with:

Readily applicable:
Nuclear - resulting from the interactions of atomic particles some of which is a byproduct of raw energy

Solar (Also, oddly enough resulting from nuclear interactions in the Sun. But, we'll ignore that basic fact for now and consider it a separate primary source.)

Near term applicable:
Geothermal - The generation of power leveraging the tremendous pressures and temperatures within the Earth. The basic problem with geothermal is that up here where humans live on the crust. Most of the materials we have to develop a generating infrastructure are very light and are rapidly corroded under the conditions which exist in the environments where enough heat and pressure to be useful on a mass scale exist. Keeping up with the maintenance of these facilities would consume most of the power generated, in other words. So, until a large deposit of Unobtainium is discovered. Developing geothermal power is problematic and would require extensive research and development to be useful in more than a few locations and it wouldn't offset much of the current energy demand.

Tidal - This is an interesting source which has received some attention and development. Tidal energy is generated by the gravitational effects of mostly the Moon and Sun on the Earth's structures. Especially, the oceans, seas, and lakes. There is quite a bit of relatively accessible power there. However, I personally haven't heard of much development going on currently.

Science Fiction applicable: These are sources of potential primary power which are known to exist, but, so far the technology to leverage them on any scale hasn't been discovered.
The Earth's Electrical Field - Nikola Tesla was obsessed with this. It is there, but, so far no way has been discovered to make use of the potential. I've read that if this field could be utilized from about two meters above ground to ground (meaning the electrical 'ground') Humans would never have to worry about power again and it is so abundant it would be free. I don't know about that. I'll have to take the thinkers word for it.

The Earth's Magnetosphere - Similar to the Electric Field. It is where the northern lights come from is about all I know about it. Using it as primary power source is relatively new to me. So, I don't have any thoughts on this option, yet.

There it is. The bulk of my pondering on this. Am I missing any primary energy sources?

WA-03 Democrat

(3,039 posts)
2. The Sun
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 01:33 PM
Jul 2021

The Original nuclear energy! I love fusion

The fact is there is more than enough electro magnetic radiation on the earth to power the earth; the how to get there best is the rub.

I agree, current nuclear technology is needed. It’s is not the only solution and nor a perfect one. I do not agree that alternative energy is a fool’s errand. Look at the increases in effective solar photovoltaics since the 70s. There is significant progress.

Nnadir, I appreciate your posts, research and your positions. I do believe that the future is the greatest variable.

Hugin

(33,120 posts)
4. One number I've kept in my mind for years is...
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 02:09 PM
Jul 2021

Last edited Sat Jul 10, 2021, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)

If 100% efficiency could be achieved the Sun delivers 1 kW/m^2 of power to every square meter of the Earth's surface.

Yes, when Solar was first being utilized the transfer efficiency was only 30 - 40% at best. After years of experimentation that has been improved to 80% in some applications with additional improvement on the horizon. It is certainly something to be expanded on.

It is really one of the greatest ironies that life developed under the shine of an exposed fusion reaction. Probably, one of the things in the whole universe that is the most anti-life of all. The only things protecting life being quite a bit of vacuum between here and there and the atmosphere humans are currently trying their best to mess up.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
9. You will not find anyone as opposed to tidal energy as I am.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 10:13 PM
Jul 2021

Tidal zones are important ecosystems, and their value extends way beyond their immediate boundaries.

In general, I oppose all forms of so called "renewable energy" that rely on the destruction of natural habitats, requiring that they be converted into industrial parks.

Tidal energy, like solar and wind, is unnecessary.

Although the modern day Sierra Club has bought into, hook, line and sinker, the destruction of wilderness to make industrial parks for producing energy, I would rather reject them by embracing the values of the Club's founder, John Muir, who fought vociferously against the destruction of the Hetch Hetchy valley ecosystem to construct a dam.

I have grudging support for hydroelectricity, since it is less noxious than tidal, wind or solar energy, but I believe it should be and can be phased out.

There is no form of energy that can be as sustainable as nuclear energy. Therefore all other forms of energy are superfluous.

As for science fiction, I've been hearing energy science fiction my whole damned adult life, and I'm not young. Because so many people have embraced these kinds of fantasies, we have seen concentrations of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide in the planetary atmosphere of 420 ppm as of 2021, less than ten years after we first saw concentrations of 400 ppm.

Climate change is not something that just showed up. It's been here for decades. While we jerked around with elaborate Rube Goldberg fantasies involving wires, glass coated with toxic materials, and whirligigs the planetary atmosphere collapsed.

We had the right solution in the 1960's but chose to demonize it. History will not forgive us, nor should it.

Silent3

(15,200 posts)
6. If we can get out of this mess (and I'm fairly pessimistic) it'll probably take a mix...
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 03:05 PM
Jul 2021

...of everything we can throw at the problem, not just one or two approaches. Nuclear. Renewables. Sequestration. Better land use. Efficiency improvements.

Even if we can get all of that going, I still think we'll have to hope for semi-sci-fi solutions from future technology... which is great if it happens, but never anything anyone should count on as a solution.

If we're lucky, we'll figure out ways to suck large amounts of CO₂ out of the atmosphere, increase the albedo of the planet, find other means to shade the planet and/or reflect significant amounts of solar radiation away, etc.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
7. I disagree with this statement.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 05:58 PM
Jul 2021

"Sequestration" is a euphemism for "dump," as in "dump on future generations." The waste problem of dangerous fossil fuels has no solution beyond CCU, "carbon capture and use," preferably capture from air or, in limited and highly controlled circumstances, capture in a reverse Allam cycle involving either the nuclear powered reformation of biomass with carbon dioxide as the oxidant, or in even more limited circumstances, air.

Note that this approach requires the expenditure of more energy than was generated in dumping it, as a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics which can be stated dS > 0.

So called "renewable energy" is neither environmentally acceptable, nor is it sustainable. The problem is it's extremely low energy to mass ratio, and its distributed nature, which means that when the so called "renewable energy" junk needs to be discarded and replaced, the generous expected life time being 25 years, either huge amounts of energy need to be expended to contain the massive quantities of waste generated, or this junk, already intractable electronic waste in the case of solar cells, and energy intensive metallic heavy waste in the case of the wind turbine junk, or the junk needs to be allowed to rot in place.

It is well understood how to remove carbon dioxide from the air; many thousands of papers are published on the topic annually. We do not need to find how to do it, but we do need to find the energy to do it. Solar cells and wind turbines, which have spectacularly failed to address climate change despite half a century of wild cheering and the expenditure of trillions of dollars, won't cut it.

Nuclear energy makes fossil fuels, so called "renewable energy" and other schemes superfluous at best, criminal at worst.

This is the real problem for many people with nuclear energy; they have to give up their precious, but extremely dangerous, "renewable energy will save us" fantasy. In other words, they need to admit they were not just misguided, but dead wrong.

Uranium, (but probably not thorium) is inexhaustible, and in any case, in breed and burn settings, the uranium and thorium already mined (in the case of thorium, dumped, as a side product of the lanthanide industry), is sufficient to produce all of humanity's energy needs for many centuries.

The world is now consuming, annually, more than 600 exajoules of energy each year. After half a century of wild cheering, the solar and solar + battery fantasy doesn't produce 5 of them.

We don't need solar cells, although in limited settings, remote road signs for instance, the solar/battery scheme is marginally acceptable, hardly benign, but marginally acceptable.

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