Yeah...I Dunno....this space stuff...

[PCIntern]

I was raised on the network coverage of the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo flights, which culminated in the space shuttle launches. The scientific approach, the epic seriousness of the undertaking from a scientific and aerodynamic standpoint, the incredible engineering and physics which entered into the design and execution of these projects was Beyond any person’s ability to comprehend. The network people approached it with gravity, with concern, and with perspective.

This coverage today reminds me of Entertainment Tonight coverage in the 80’s of the premiere of a film. I did not see one technical piece on the “Mothership” (give me an effing break -yeah…it’s JUST LIKE the Mothership in Close Encounters 🙄. ) or the rocket plane itself, the way the major networks used to have the engineers discuss the various attributes of the modules or rockets.

It’s all about self-aggrandizement and being a billionaire. Well. Good for them. This is the New America.

[spanone]

1. K&R

[cilla4progress]

2. Perhaps it's about

survival?

All I really care about is that the wild - plants and animals - survive...at this point...

[PCIntern]

3. I get that...

But believe me, very very few do….

For them it is about Brand and “Heroes”.

[Escurumbele]

43. Maybe they do have a very genuine interest in space and not a self aggrandizing agenda?

Do you think that could be a possibility?

Branson has a reputation for being very down to earth, he even celebrates when his employees fail and just pushes them and helps them to do better. Just because he has amassed a fortune through very hard work and ingenuity doesn't make him a narcissist as opposed to the buffoon we had for president who inherited his money, has screwed a lot of people along the way to his near future bankruptcy.

I don't know about Bezos, but I know that Branson has helped a lot of people along the way and the people who work for him love him.

We have to admire those who have made it through hard work and ingenuity, we don't have to make them our idols but we don't have to make them our enemies or the enemies of society either. I understand Jeff Bezos has not been the best for many of his employees, but he has to be admired for his persistence in building Amazon when so many people were convinced he would fail, which he did for many years but still stuck with his goals, that takes courage and a lot of hard work.

[DanieRains]

61. Would Admire Branson More If He Invented Carbon Capture / Sequestration Breakthroughs

Instead of glorifying more carbon burning.

Space Tourism.

As sick as it gets.

But that's just me.

[panader0]

35. What was the carbon footprint of such an endeavor?

Not just the flight itself--the entire process.
Yeah, as a species we may need a place to go someday. Especially if people keep polluting the
F**K out of this planet.

[underpants]

4. 😆

[cilla4progress]

9. Good one.

Thanks for the dose of levity.

[msfiddlestix]

11. this is great! Perfectly framed.

[mac2766]

32. Perfect!

[The Blue Flower]

5. Agree

This all seemed to be about marketing whatever this technology will be used for by these billionaires. I grew up in central Florida during the Mercury and Apollo years. We watched the countdowns on tvs in the classroom, then ran outside to watch the sun glint off the rockets as they flew skyward. This had virtually none of the excitement.

[brooklynite]

48. Plane takeoffs at the airport are pretty dull too

But what were they like 100 years ago?

Eventually, cutting edge technology becomes ordinary. They call this “progress”.

[Larissa]

81. In my book the NASA Space Shuttle launches are still the top

They remain some of my favorite things to watch and deepened my respect for the crew members -- scientists and military -- well versed in the demands and risks of their mission:

&t=164s

[brooklynite]

85. There were 135 Shuttle launches; how many did you watch?

[Vinca]

6. I totally agree with you. It's just not as exciting as watching Neil Armstrong descending the

stairs and stepping onto the moon. It's a rich guy with a fun, new hobby. Whoop-di-doo.

[lagomorph777]

98. Flying to London for a vacation is not as exciting as watching Lindbergh do it.

But that's how technological revolutions advance.

These are actually the next logical steps; some may seem like stunts or goofing around, but these people are making real advances in our access to space.

[Hugin]

7. All I know is that TFG's gibbering on Faux this morning was all about how he wasn't...

at the front of the space parade.

And, Branson (who he hates) was.

[msfiddlestix]

13. now that's damn amusing.

thanks for those chuckles.

[Hugin]

21. I do agree with the Doc, these achievements are built on the shoulders of giants.

Even though it's BORING this fact needs to be highlighted and acknowledged.

Branson... Well, he's Branson and he's never been up in my face. Like that guy who loses at everything. So, I'll leave it at that.

[Treefrog]

18. It amazes me how many here watch fox.

Don’t get it.

[Hugin]

20. I personally don't but the feed is polluted by those who do.

Keeping tabs is important, I guess.

[dianaredwing]

57. Send him up next

without enough fuel for the return trip.

[Hugin]

71. There may be a Sun landing coming up.

Need to check the calendar.

[msfiddlestix]

8. This 10,000 %

Absolutely agree and share your perspective.

For that reason, I'm not giving an iota of interest in terms of watching this spectacle of the filthy wealth class showing off their toys, and their enterprises which only intend to benefit their own.

It maybe "Good for them" but is good for Earth's inhabitants? I'm not confident it could ever be good for the rest of us.

[DanieRains]

62. Let The Poor Burn

Is the game plan right?

[Crunchy Frog]

93. Shipping them off to Mars will certainly be a workable solution.

[Happy Hoosier]

96. So, we should do nothing so long as there are poor people?

If so, then we'll never do anything.

[Mr.Bill]

101. Using a big airplane to haul a smaller airplane up to where it can be released

to fly higher and faster than the big plane is 1960s or even 1950s technology with a little P.T. Barnum thrown in.

It was about as game changing as if Branson had pulled a transistor radio out of his pocket and turned it on.

[brooklynite]

10. Answer: this wasn't a news broadcast...

Virgin Galactic is a commercial enterprise looking for passengers. This is the commoditization phase of space travel.

[paleotn]

26. Or the play thing of a rich boy who never grew up.

A complete waste of time and resources.

[brooklynite]

44. Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Rail and Virgin Recordss were also "playthings"?

He seems to build businesses people want to partake of.

I’d take his space plane…

[paleotn]

82. His space plane is a toy. A toy for the rich.

No law against it, but I tend to frown on such frivolous things. I know, I'm just no fun. No fun at all.

[brooklynite]

87. In 1930, a cross-country airplane ticket cost the equivalent of $4,000 today...

A toy for the rich, right? Think it'll ever catch on?

[paleotn]

100. Never! Bah!

[mainer]

49. Branson was born middle class. His dad was just a barrister.

He wasn't a rich boy.

[Owl]

75. It's an amusement park ride.

[LynnTTT]

12. Waste of money

Two guys who have just realized they've bought everything they can possibly buy, so now it's just boys with toys. It's their money, so fine...... but it belongs on "entertainment" not "science"

[smirkymonkey]

56. +1000

There is so much good that these billionaires could be doing with their money here on earth, but they aren't even trying. They just insist on pissing it all away on vanity projects and it's sickening.

[DanieRains]

65. Absolutely

Invent something that helps mankind not hastens our extinction.

Space Tourism.

Annihilation.

[MerryBlooms]

89. I agree, carnival rides for the wealthy, definitely Not science.

[NewHendoLib]

14. I am a scientist and ate up the NASA stuff of my youth, the Pluto mission, etc.

but yes - I had no interest in today - greed, power, "influencing" - the world has gone upside down to me.

I have absolutely no interest in pop culture, today's "entertainment", social networking (except for educating) - so much bullshit - but we deserve what we are getting for dumbing so much down.

[redstatebluegirl]

15. Proof that the rich have to much money.

People are starving, homeless cannot afford medical care and these two are playing a "whose is biggest" game. Westh inequality is real people.

[dalton99a]

16. But they are selfless noble people risking their lives to expand our knowledge

We do need to find out what it looks like above 50 miles

[rickyhall]

45. Sarcasm?

[Iggo]

76. I was right with you up until "selfless."

[Treefrog]

17. Same here. I found it stupid.

I was alternating between Wimbledon and spaceboy, but at one point thought Brian Stelter needed to breathe into a bag. He sounded so hyper. God that was a waste.

[DavidDvorkin]

19. I worked on the Apollo missions

And I heard the very same objections to the space program back then. Meanwhile, we're still benefiting from the Apollo tech spinoff.

[PCIntern]

22. Not quite...

I understand and recall those objections. They differed from mine. I think the scientific potential is enormous and my objection is that we aren’t paying sufficient attention to that. More attention to the Champagne they were consuming after the fact.

[paleotn]

29. And the champagne is all Branson cares about....

Anything else only matters if they can make a buck off of it. A very short sighted, and incredibly inefficient way of generating advancements in science.

[Bengus81]

24. Yep..someone on DU wanted to know how any Space or moon mission helped us

How about fiber optics for a start??

[PCIntern]

28. And many other things but you know...

Tang “orange” drink was a big thing when I was a kid.

[sarchasm]

46. NASA did not invent Tang ... velcro, or teflon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

[EX500rider]

58. Nope, just advanced or invented these:

Health and medicine
2.1 Infrared ear thermometers
2.2 Ventricular assist device
2.3 LASIK
2.4 Cochlear implants
2.5 Artificial limbs
2.6 Light-emitting diodes in medical therapies
2.7 Invisible braces
2.8 Scratch-resistant lenses
2.9 Space blanket
2.10 3D foods printing

3 Transportation
3.1 Aircraft anti-icing systems
3.2 Highway safety
3.3 Improved radial tires
3.4 Chemical detection

4 Public safety
4.1 Video enhancing and analysis systems
4.2 Landmine removal
4.3 Fire-resistant reinforcement
4.4 Firefighting equipment
4.5 Shock absorbers for buildings

5 Consumer, home, and recreation
5.1 TEMPUR foam
5.2 Enriched baby food
5.3 Portable cordless vacuums
5.4 Freeze drying
5.5 Space age swimsuit
5.6 CMOS image sensor
5.7 Air-scrubbers
5.8 Bowflex

6 Environmental and agricultural resources
6.1 Water purification
6.2 Solar Cells
6.3 Pollution remediation
6.4 Correcting for GPS signal errors
6.5 Water location

7 Computer technology
7.1 Structural analysis software
7.2 Remotely controlled ovens
7.3 NASA Visualization Explorer
7.4 OpenStack
7.5 Software catalog

8 Industrial productivity
8.1 Powdered lubricants
8.2 Improved mine safety
8.3 Food safety

[paleotn]

27. Not the same.

Space flight was the commons for the common good. Not the plaything of rich, bored brats.

[tulipsandroses]

33. I loved it. And that is what I was thinking of. I am not focusing on the billionaires.

Behind them are the scientists, engineers, physicists. What will we learn that will benefit us? Not because of the billionaires, their money will make it possible, but the great minds behind the scenes, what will they learn that may be applicable for the benefit of mankind.


I listened to the various scientists that Ali Velshi interviewed and I enjoyed it. Speaking in complex tech jargon will have people tuning out. I appreciated the simple explanations of difficult concepts by the people interviewed. OF course we cannot possibly understand these concepts in 5 minute interviews.
There were so many good things I saw today. Women on that flight, including a minority woman.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water because you despise billionaires.

The USA Is lagging in Science and Math careers.

Then we get upset about recruiting people from other countries to fill the need.
I am not thinking about the billionaires, they will fund these projects for their own wants and needs, however don't forget what this means to the people behind the scenes and how their work may benefit us.

[DavidDvorkin]

34. Yes.

[ancianita]

53. Ali Velshi's one of the smartest interviewers on TV. It's all exciting.

Just one obvious point -- when scientists work for government, yes, their work has been applicable to public benefits; but when scientists work for billionaires, the billionaires benefit first -- proprietary knowledge, intelligence, lifetime non-disclosure agreements, etc., are among their business tools of privatized space projects. Profit, first; benefits to mankind maybe later or not at all, or only to the mankind going on these trips.
Just the tax breaks they've pooled together to even afford to get to this point of success; they bought up the R&D we paid for decades ago, as well... that was their research scaffold.

Whatever their scientists develop of benefit to Earth humans, they will still be a sales commodity like Tang, teflon, water purification, breathing masks, etc., like from back in the day.

[tulipsandroses]

83. So are we saying that only the government should be involved in space exploration?

I have my gripes with billionaires not paying their fair share of taxes. I don't mind business people making money on whatever venture they pursue. As long as it is legal and does not violate ethics and human rights. I don't mind paying for technological advances. I don't have a problem with whatever they discover being a sales commodity either.
Should scientists only work for the government and non billionaires? Benefits don't have to be free to be beneficial.

NASA has already entered into private business ventures. Why should this sector be relegated just to the government?
This article highlights one way that private business ventures has been a benefit.

Companies are increasingly looking to space as a place of business, and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration has been changing in several different ways, especially by partnering with corporations to develop new technologies.

Earlier this year NASA announced it would open the International Space Station to private astronauts, with short missions beginning as soon as 2020. Additionally, NASA said it would allow companies to bid for new activities on the space station, as the agency unveiled a directive to “enable commercial manufacturing and production” in space.

SNIP
DeWit pointed to the satellite segment of the industry as an example for how shifting ownership and operations from government-built-and-owned to commercial can drive innovation, such as communications or services like satellite television.

“The early satellites were all government-owned, and they were limited in their scope and very expensive. When satellites really took off is when the commercial sector came in,” DeWit said. “The commercial sector figured out these uses that the government never would have figured out, and they put their own satellites up there. The cost came down a lot, and the uses went up a lot.”

[link:https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/30/how-nasa-is-evolving-through-partnerships-with-private-space-companies.html|

I think its an exciting time and like everything there will be pros and cons. Just like the early days of the internet. Who knew from the early days of bulletin boards and slow online dial up that this is where we would be today. I am not mad at them at all.
Again, they need to pay their fair share of taxes. Two things can be true at the same time.

[ancianita]

86. I don't know about "we." I do realize there are innovators in both private and public sectors.

It does appear to be the first time a major "space" or "interplanetary" project has been sponsored by people with wealth greater than some nations' GDP's, and there will likely be a "we" in and among nations who would team up on such large scale endeavors. There have also been projects that haven't required the interest, knowledge or even civic support by populations -- for ten years the space station was one of them.

Projects do outgrow their creators, and the biggest can hardly be kept secret. And so if NASA needn't be relegated just to government, because it can make a profit, the same can be arguably claimed for the U.S. military or once-governmental services like NOAA or even the CDC.

I'm not sure how any of it can turn out for the benefit of everyone, or that it won't. You bring up the analogy about the Internet's growth, which "we" knew little of as it was happening. By the time kids grew up with it, universities made it computer science, and the rest of us got comfortable using and living with it, it had become a business sector, created NASDAQ and a global trade network, increasing the global GDP. But benefitting everyone?

"We" can do two things as once, but the benefits for "us" are not proportional to our costs. "We" can list plenty of examples of business ventures that on the front end, have received public subsidies, full well knowing that on the other end, the public will also pick up the cleanup costs of business "externalities." Such that, with little to no consent of the governed, government has become more finance tool than profit partner.

I hope the benefits outnumber the costs.

[scarletlib]

72. Absolutely agree.

[Raven]

23. Sow's ear comes to mind. Bramson has turned his addiction to thrills into a silk purse. Watching

this on MSNBC was like watching one of those hyped commercials for removing under eye puffiness. This guy spent billions of dollars, that could have gone to feed entire at risk populations, to do what John Glenn and the other early space pioneers did except on Bramson's flight, in-flight drinks and snacks were probably available. Bramson is a tax cheat disguised as an astronaut.

[PCIntern]

25. Excellently put!

[Bengus81]

30. Yeah...here's what POS Branson does with some of his cash

Branson has pledged to commit $3 billion, all profits from his travel firms over the next ten years, to the reduction of global warming.

He has previously donated to educational charities in Africa.

Branson started his first charity, “Student Valley Centre”, when he was only 17.

Richard is Patron of the International Rescue Corps.

In 2007, Branson formed The Elders – a small, dedicated group of leaders......

[PCIntern]

38. I for one wasn't criticizing the politics of the individual

I was criticizing the coverage of same.

[Laffy Kat]

31. THIS! As a science and aviation enthusiast I am finding the billionaire space race boring....

And frankly vulgar. Big little boys flaunting their toys.

[homegirl]

36. The Three Billionaires

who are planning to commercialize space will be benefiting financially from the Billions, no, possibly Trillions the US taxpayer paid to develop the American Space Program, over decades. Will they pay for that knowledge, will they share the profits with the American taxpayers???

Inquiring minds want to know.

[EX500rider]

63. They developed their own rockets, NASA didn't hand them plans.

And in the case of SpaceX's landing rocket they are ahead of NASA using their own money.

[Happy Hoosier]

95. These are largely private investments.

Say what you will.... these guys are employing scientists, engineers, and technicians that are developing cutting edge technology that NASA cannot do with its budget.

There are a LOT of engineers like me who would vastly prefer working on space missions instead of working to develop more efficient ways to kill our fellow human beings for the Defense Department.

I work primarily in navigation systems, but I never fool myself about the goal. I'd rather put those talents to use going to Mars, but I love airplanes and space regardless.

These men, whatever their faults, are leveraging their wealth to expand human endeavor and technology to peaceful exploration of space, and to me that's a good thing.

[Blue Dawn]

37. I have a totally different perspective.

I was overjoyed to see women....and young women!....playing a role.

As a woman who was born in the mid 1950s, I don't recall being taught much, if anything, about women and their roles in science, medicine, engineering, physics, and myriad other fields, such as sports and the arts, for example. What I recall about watching any rocket launches on TV was older white men talking to white male astronauts and white male NASA employees. The only women that I recall being highlighted were the wives of the astronauts.

I have absolutely no memories of seeing a woman on TV who was either an astronaut or a behind-the-scenes employee who actually was an integral part of the space program. I'm sure they must have existed. They just were not considered important enough to mention.

Today, I was thrilled to see young woman who are playing vital roles in Virgin Galactic's program. To be honest, it was a rather surreal experience because it was so different from any other space launch I've ever seen. That doesn't make it better or worse, just different. I, for one, actually welcome the difference.

Yes, it was different. But I am ecstatic that young girls and young women who watched the launch today could see these excellent role models.

PCIntern, I always enjoy your posts. And I certainly do respect your viewpoint here. I am certain that many others agree with you. I just perceived it differently.

I do appreciate your post!

[llmart]

79. Actually, there were women behind the scenes and even a couple astronauts...

it just wasn't shown or talked about in the mainstream media. Let's not forget Kathryn Johnson. These days NASA has almost as many young women in the astronaut training program and even more doing the behind the scenes, important stuff. My son is an engineer at Kennedy Space Center and I've visited the complex several times. There is an excellent museum on the grounds that highlights the many women who went unrecognized for decades.

Virgin Galactic isn't doing anything groundbreaking with regard to women. I'm also a bit worried about the space program being turned into a commercial enterprise only and doing away with NASA. I can see the GOP would be all for that.

[dameatball]

39. I watched it. It was interesting. The commercialization of space was inevitable. Unrealistic to

think that whoever was footing the bill would refrain from selling their brand. What kept occurring to me was there are going to be oligarch types all over the world who will probably get caught up in this. Once that happens the advances will be coming hard and fast. Just my opinion and the feeling I got as I watched the rich guy start something. What becomes of this is going to be interesting.

[DanieRains]

69. Emit More Carbon Space Tourism Great Idea

Your kids can grow up to be fire fighters, and grave diggers, and coffin makers.

Next idea?

[dameatball]

78. My kids are already grown up thank you. Leave them out of your replies.

[czarjak]

40. Meanwhile, 10,000 children will starve to death. Daily, too.

[Warpy]

41. It's a glorified roller coaster ride

and I'm sure it will be a howling success among jet setters bored with mere jets.

Still, it has a ghost of a chance or inspiring some new engineering ideas.

I know people who would sacrifice their children to take this ride. I'll pass but I don't make the rules.

This will benefit NM very little, they'll jet directly into the spaceport, take their ride, and jet out.

[ananda]

42. It's like a new toy plaything for the billionaire class.

Also, it gets attention and I guess the ultrarich can
use it to make people think they are not just
tax-dodging hoarders...which they are.

[Politicub]

47. The hucksterism made the trip boring.

And apparently the company didn't budget enough for radio communications or cameras inside of the vessel. The money was spent on Colbert and Khalid or something.

It was a big commercial. To be fair, Branson wasn't coy about it being an advertisement for his space plane service. It was a proof of concept to entice people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars to burn.

There were moments of excitement when the plane was released and when it glided back to earth. Those moments were outweighed by the announcer talking about how Undergear or UnderArmor or Undersomething designed the space suits with fabrics to regulate temperature. And how New Mexico's tourism icon (a sun) was emblazoned on the plane. I'm sure Pepsi or some other sponsor was part of it, too.

After typing this, I feel like I need a shower. This wasn't for humanity; it was for the rich to rub their prestige in everyone's faces.

[rickford66]

50. Those darn billionaire bicycle repairmen from Ohio started all this.

Most discoveries on the Earth have been privately funded. Not always for the noblest purposes. What we have to realize is, these wealthy guys can only do this because of all the tax payer research and development that preceded them, but is still would have happened anyway. Sooner or later.

[FoxNewsSucks]

51. THat's what happens when we don't tax the billionaires

and corporations.

In the past, the government was sufficiently funded to research, build, and make trips to the moon. Representing the people, not just one billionaire or corporation, and benefiting everyone. Not just one billionaire or corporation.

[Dukkha]

52. Huge avid space fan here

and I'm not at all interested in this. The space programs of the 60's were awe inspiring and the last of American exceptionalism. This is nothing but another Über-rich 1% dick measuring contest. Instead of space exploration to advance humanity and scientific discoveries, it is pushing the absolute worst of humanity, capitalism, into the final frontier.

The future is not bright but very bleak. We're not getting "2001: A Space Odyssey" with the promise of a new age in human evolution. We're working instead towards "Elysium" where the few elite humans enjoy a life of opulence in orbit while the rest of humanity struggles and scrapes for a meager existence on a dying polluted unstable surface.

[moondust]

59. +1

[DanieRains]

70. Elysium - You Got The Thread Winner

Mankind's extinction clock just ticked ahead a few months / years today.

Woohoo!!!

[smirkymonkey]

73. +1000

[Iggo]

77. Mars.

[sanatanadharma]

54. Repeating the previous success of Shepard's 1961 flight, but with...

Repeating the previous success of Shepard's 1961 flight, but with the added patina of a "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" episode.

[Mosby]

55. I thought he was british?

[DavidDvorkin]

60. He is.

[Justice matters.]

68. He is British.

Taking advantages of the multiple British tax havens...

[hotdamn00]

64. They're standing on the shoulders of giants

and think THEY'RE the giants.

[bringthePaine]

67. or: whopping re-entry fee like the GWB in NYC, maybe a cover & 2 drink minimum?...

[reACTIONary]

74. "The Beginning of a New Era" - Not...

... More like the inevitable petering out of a former, heroic era.

[Joinfortmill]

80. Yup.

[USALiberal]

84. this shit has always happened in America. WTF???

[GulfCoast66]

88. Could not disagree more. Almost get off my lawn stuff.

When Automobiles were new the first few in a town were tourist attractions. Same with early flight.

Now space. I live in Central Florida. There is now a weekly launch. More and more of them manned.

The commercialization of space was inevitable and planned. By Democratic administrations as well as republicans.

NASA is there for exploring and research. Getting into space is no longer exploring or research.

Lots to dislike about Musk. But he has helped revolutionize space travel. Surly y’all have seen videos of those rockets coming back and landing to be reused. Even on a boat! I could not believe it the first time I saw it. I truly don’t think if it was all NASA that would have ever happened. It’s not their money ditching into the ocean. I’m a social democrat. Not a socialist. I see the advantage of using personal best interest to motivate actions.

At least he has used his Billions for something that benefits all humankind. Need I point out Billionaires like the Cock brothers! And how they used their Billions.

Sorry to disagree. But I’ve long dreamed about a time when humans going into space was not a news worthy item. But like a plane taking off from OIA. I’m a long time SF fan. Not a total geek, but a half geek!

[MerryBlooms]

90. r&k

[riversedge]

91. I did not watch nor listen to any of it today altough I had the chance to do so. The pre-coverage

just put me off. As you say it was all about billionaires now being able to travel in space.

[Crunchy Frog]

92. I don't give a flying fuck about Billionaires in Space.

I haven't gone near the TV in several days.

[babylonsister]

94. imo it's all about profit.

I heard it mentioned yesterday there are 700 people on a list to go into space, including Lady Gaga and Tom Cruise. They're ponying up $250K each for the privilege.

That's some incentive.

[Kota]

97. One thing I liked about all the coverage is how small and insignificant the former guy looks.

They kept saying how great the branding was by Branson. He's a master at it. I hope it pissed the former guy off. And I hope it helps all his supporter see what a pathetic brand Trump is.

[PCIntern]

99. That is a good point....