General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSenior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation
Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation
By Natasha Bertrand, Pamela Brown, Katie Bo Williams and Zachary Cohen, CNN
Updated 6:18 PM ET, Fri July 16, 2021
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/16/politics/biden-intel-review-covid-origins/index.html
"SNIP.....
Washington (CNN)Senior Biden administration officials overseeing an intelligence review into the origins of the coronavirus now believe the theory that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan is at least as credible as the possibility that it emerged naturally in the wild -- a dramatic shift from a year ago, when Democrats publicly downplayed the so-called lab leak theory.
Still, more than halfway into President Joe Biden's renewed 90-day push to find answers, the intelligence community remains firmly divided over whether the virus leaked from the Wuhan lab or jumped naturally from animals to humans in the wild, multiple sources familiar with the probe told CNN.
Little new evidence has emerged to move the needle in one direction or another, these people said. But the fact that the lab leak theory is being seriously considered by top Biden officials is noteworthy and comes amid a growing openness to the idea even though most scientists who study coronaviruses and who have investigated the origins of the pandemic say the evidence strongly supports a natural origin.
Current intelligence reinforces the belief that the virus most likely originated naturally, from animal-human contact and was not deliberately engineered, the sources said. But that does not preclude the possibility that the virus was the result of an accidental leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where coronavirus research was being conducted on bats -- although many scientists familiar with the research say such a leak is unlikely.
.....SNIP"
DURHAM D
(32,607 posts)The rumor last year was not that it had accidentally escaped from a lab. The rumor was that it had been intentionally leaked.
CNN can bite my ass.
applegrove
(118,576 posts)So there is that. They are saying the virus is of natural origin and that could mean a lab leak or wet market.
Mad_Machine76
(24,399 posts)Are people suggesting it was engineered and then leaked from a lab or were they studying it in a lab and it leaked? Only the hardest of the hardcore think it was a biological weapon. Im getting confused.
DURHAM D
(32,607 posts)from the lab.
applegrove
(118,576 posts)the naturally occuring virus could have been taken to the lab to be studied, where it accidentally leaked or the natural occuring virus escaped from nature, maybe in a wet market or where humans and nature meet.
BootinUp
(47,135 posts)womanofthehills
(8,685 posts)Scientists say take two giant steps!
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)They say the spiked protein itself is a sign of engineering.
You say you can show.
Show.
You do know, I'm sure, that spikes are...ummmm...definitional of the coronavirus.
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)C19 spikes are unique.
Read this and you'll understand better.
Ask me if you have any questions.
https://www.genengnews.com/news/sars-cov-2-d614g-mutation-stabilizes-spike-protein-may-explain-faster-spread/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/09/12/how-one-unassuming-little-protein-makes-coronavirus-a-killer/?sh=1a47f37b71b8
In summary, yes all CV have spike proteins.
BUT.
BUT. C19 is more efficient. A higher percentage of the spikes may be attacking the host tissue. A higher percentage of the spikes may be physically able to attack cells. And they're more aggressive/efficient.
So wow... it's like someone took an off the shelf CV... and engineered it. AKA, gain of function research or weaponization.
But seriously, we don't know if it's laboratory made or naturally occurring. But it's worth studying.
And YES it's the spike proteins that make C19 so deadly. Odd how they're different than other CV's... hmmm
Think of it as a poison snake. Why are some more dangerous than others? They all have teeth?
Deadly snakes have a more deadly toxin and the teeth may have larger canals for transmitting venom.
dpibel
(2,830 posts)There is not word in any of the pieces to which you link that even remotely intimates intentional engineering.
Seriously. If you think that increased viral efficiency is evidence of engineering, I really think you do not understand how any of this works.
SARS and MERS were really efficient in their own ways. Do you think they were engineered also?
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)You must look at it in totality.
No evidence of natural transmission, highly unusual and efficient characteristics and origination near the same military lab we KNOW was working with CV and also known to be working with the US in Gain of Function research.
Might all be nothing. But when you see smoke coming out of your neighbors house you call the fire dept. Even though it might be the kids playing with liquid nitrogen in their room...
dpibel
(2,830 posts)"same military lab we KNOW was working with CV and also known to be working with the US in Gain of Function research."
I've never before heard the Wuhan Institute of Virology referred to as a "military lab." Can you give me a source on that?
Also the "known to be working with the US in Gain of Function research" is known to me only as a right-wing talking point. Again, your half-remembered Fauci quote is not "known to be working with the US, etc."
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)And ANY lab in China is working with the blessing of the CCP and the Army.
bye.
Oh and before I go
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/563232-who-chief-premature-to-rule-out-covid-19-lab-leak-theory
dpibel
(2,830 posts)Military approval! That's what I meant. Did I say "military lab"?
Mad_Machine76
(24,399 posts)That Tucker Carlson, et al will eat this up.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)The 'lab leak' claim was, at that time, merely the thin edge of a wedge to enable the evil clowns in charge to proclaim the virus was deliberately released, and designed in the lab to kill.
This would not excuse at all their catastrophic failure to meet the threat, but it would provide a ready target for rage besides themselves.
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)And it was engineering dangerous adaptions to make the virus more deadly...
these are facts, confirmed by Fauci.
Was it released on purpose? I don't know. Released on accident? I don't know.
But did it come from a lab?
Starting to look like it.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)You might need a citation for that.
And surely you are not accusing the Trump administration of a disinterested inquiry into the truth of the matter....
dpibel
(2,830 posts)You are actually here fronting the "Fauci sponsored gain of function research at Wuhan" line?
You've been doing really well so far. But this is a risky step.
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)Gain of Function research is worth the possible risk of lab leak
I'm too lazy to cnp the original quote but I assure you this is close.
What about "doing really well"?
dpibel
(2,830 posts)You said Fauci confirmed that a lab "was engineering dangerous adaptions to make the virus more deadly."
That is not slightly the same as "I remember something--can't look it up right now--that Fauci said about risk/benefit of gain of function research."
Really. You're flailing.
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)#1
Fauci supports GoF research, acknowledges risks.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/07/us-infectious-disease-chief-urges-flu-scientists-engage-support-h5n1-research
In today's remarks, Fauci highlighted one particularly sensitive research area: so-called "gain-of-function" experiments that allow scientists to create and study flu viruses that are more pathogenic than those found in nature. A key argument for doing such experiments, he noted, is that they allow scientists to understand how a virus might evolve in the future.
"There is a real and present danger of the natural evolution of the virus and that is why you do the experiments that might appear to be risky in the eyes of some," he said. "You do the experiments so we can stay ahead of the naturally evolving risk."
Many critics, however, have questioned whether such experiments are really useful, and whether scientists can safely contain potentially dangerous new pathogens. "The world sees it differently," Fauci said, "and they ask the question,
namely: Should these experiments should have been performed and/or published in the first place?"
Scientists, he said, often "answer that the benefit outweighs the risk.
However, it is essential we respect the concern of the public domestically or globally, and not ask them to take the word of the influenza scientist."
Along with concerns about bioterrorists using published papers to guide deliberate efforts to stoke a pandemic, Fauci said he worried about "unregulated" laboratories, perhaps outside of the United States, doing work "sloppily" and leading to an inadvertent pandemic. "Accidental release is what the world is really worried about," he said.
#2
So... Fauci acknowledges support of Wuhan lab and GoF at the Wuhan lab
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/18/fact-checking-senator-paul-dr-fauci-flap-over-wuhan-lab-funding/
For instance, in 2017, WIV published a study that said researchers had found a coronavirus from a bat that could be transmitted directly to humans. WIV researchers used reverse genetics to deliberately create novel recombinants of wild bat coronavirus backbones and spike genes, then tested the ability of these chimeric (man-made) viruses to replicate in not just infect a variety of cell lines. The article reported the discovery of novel coronavirus backbone and spike combinations that do not exist in nature and are capable of replicating efficiently in human cells with the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), the protein that provides the entry point for the coronavirus to hook into and infect human tissue.
But Robert Kessler, a spokesman for the nongovernmental organization EcoHealth Alliance that NIH funded, said claims about funding gain-of-function research are based on a misunderstanding of the grants role in the research. He said EcoHealth provided WIV $133,000 a year, except for $66,000 in 2020 (when the grant was terminated by the Trump administration), for a total of about $600,000.
So there ya go. If you've got a problem with my facts, lots of other people to take it up with.
Bottom line, it's worth further investigation. Period.
Done.
"In a May 11 Senate hearing, Paul raised the issue of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 and said some in the government werent interested in investigating the lab-leak theory. The Kentucky senator said that government authorities, self-interested in continuing gain-of-function research say theres nothing to see here. He went on to assert a tie between U.S. researchers and the Wuhan Institute of Virology and accused them of juicing up super-viruses, asking Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, if he still supported the NIH funding of the lab in Wuhan.
Fauci responded that the NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/the-wuhan-lab-and-the-gain-of-function-disagreement/
Bizarrely, your second excerpt appears to me to say the precise opposite of what you think it says.
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)Please... try to keep up.
Google EcoHealth Alliance, Fauci and NIH
dpibel
(2,830 posts)This is significant so long as you have proven that WIV was engaged in gain of function research.
Sadly for you, you have failed in that critical area of proof.
I fear doing the google you suggest because it will lead me to OAN and The Daily Caller.
dpibel
(2,830 posts)That, I do not have.
I do have a problem with your unsupported assertions and apparent misreadings of the material you cite.
TheBlackAdder
(28,179 posts).
The would just need to create an empty ball-point pen cartridge and inject it in there and seal it.
Fly it to another country and let someone find the pen and start using it.
The first couple uses would be ink, then virus mixed in a dye.
.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)pwb
(11,258 posts)a puke move. When we do find out what happened what then? We get mad at them? Go to war with them? WTF? It matters not....
WarGamer
(12,423 posts)It can lead to better procedures going forward. Maybe give the WHO real power?
LifeLongDemocratic
(131 posts)If the science says natural origin than that is what I believe not the right wing talking point not based on science. We probably never know the truth. The bat to pangolin to human based on science seems most likely cause.
dpibel
(2,830 posts)So, like the Chinese, man, engineered this super coronavirus. Because, they're like wicked smart, dude.
And they planned to kill the world with it.
So they covertly released it in (checks notes) WUHAN CHINA!
You don't hardly get better than that for trying to take down the rest of the world. Because for sure when you want to harm the rest of the world, you make your own people sick. Works every time.
This is also the dumbest talking point in the world. Even if COVID-19 escaped from the Wuhan virology lab, that changes not one single thing about the fact that Trump farked up the US response in a way that an evil genius might not have been able to engineer.
The whole "LAB LEAK!!!11!1!" thing is that, if it was a lab leak, then the whole thing is on China and Trump's in the clear. That's inane.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)1) Totally natural and passed direct from animals
2) Totally natural and under study in a lab, where it accidentally escaped from
3) Not totally natural and under study in a lab, where it accidentally escaped from
4) Not totally natural, made as a weapon on purpose, and released on purpose
All we're talking about here is possibly 2 or 3, not 4. To say that 1 is far more likely than 2 (or imply it's positively known to be 1) is ... not accurate according to what scientists are apparently saying at this point.
They do not seem be implying 3 or 4 are likely whatsoever. So let's be clear what we're talking about.
1 or 2 doesn't really 'change things' all that much quite frankly in terms of Trump's responsibility and level of FAIL. Aside from the need to make more sure it can't happen again than we are now (with better security at the labs) it's really fairly immaterial.
Elessar Zappa
(13,941 posts)moondust
(19,966 posts)Maybe some actual evidence of something will emerge someday but not holding my breath.
BootinUp
(47,135 posts)Science or not at all.
applegrove
(118,576 posts)BGBD
(3,282 posts)Animals to humans is pretty common. However, the efficiency at which c19 was able to infect and transmit among humans is remarkable and suggests that it was familiar with human physiology, having adapted to it, before the outbreak began.
Now, that could be from having been experimented on in a lab or it could have been just a bad luck aligning of the stars in nature that caused those evolutions. It's also worth co sidering that science hasn't discovered a virus very close to this one....they have similar ones but not clear direct evolutionary predecessor's.
It's not outlandish to think that China was experimenting with coronavirus and safety lapses in Wuhan led to a leak. That's also a long way from an intentional release.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Meanwhile....GET VACCINATED.
MichMan
(11,899 posts)China will have destroyed any evidence of it by now
Apollo Zeus
(251 posts)In 1977 H1N1 escaped from a lab. November 2019 outbreak of brucellosis that occurred in two research centers in Lanzhou, China, infecting over 100 students and staff members.
SARS escaped from labs at least 4 times: 2003 in Singapore and Taiwan, 2004 in China, twice.
Research is necessary but lab protocols and practices need to be strictly observed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7744920/
GoCubsGo
(32,078 posts)Whether or not it leaked from the lab, or came directly from the environment is probably moot. As I understand it, that lab exists because Wuhan is a site of high natural transmission. It's loaded with "wet" markets, and that's where the actual transmission occurs, and their resulting contagious diseases. The lab was set up to study these viruses and how transmission works, so that they could head off future epidemics/pandemics. It's quite possible they were studying this particular virus, and somebody in the lab got careless, causing it to escape into the population. It happens. It's not the first time. It won't be the last. Although, if they were studying it, it was already out there.
As many of us know, the US had personnel at this lab, who were sent there to monitor the research--and potential outbreaks that could spread past that region. They were our early warning system. But, The Village Idiot removed them and fired them when he took office. And, that is where the "controversy" originates. This is just another Trump fuck-up that exacerbated the whole thing. He and his cult are claiming this was a bioweapon in order to cover his fat, shit-stained ass for removing our personnel from that lab.
If this thing WAS a bioweapon, then the Chinese tested it on their own people first. They shut down that whole city after thousands of people were getting sick and dying. They were literally nailing doors shut to keep non-compliants in their apartments. Which tells me it was not an intentional release. Either way, if our scientists had still been there, they'd know about any bioweapons production. But, they weren't, because a fucking moron removed them. Ultimately, this whole argument is an attempt to provide cover for Trump's stupidity and incompetence.