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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDemocrats have lost the narrative
I know what the rules are regarding speaking negatively of Democrats, with that said, if I just go gleefully on praising them I would be doing a disservice to them.
I hear or see no discussion of S1, I guess it's dead and we will just have to wait until the next election to see if we can overcome voter suppression, gerrymandering, and allowing Republicans to choose their own Electoral college delegates regardless of the voters preferences.
I also see time spent on the bipartisan infrastructure bill was wasted time and now I am reading today that the infrastructure bill that is scheduled to be passed through reconciliation is in danger of failing unless it is scaled way back. Will Democrats unite and pass a strong infrastructure bill?
No, I see that the narrative today has moved on to raising the debt ceiling. The reason for this narrative is to paint Democrats as big spenders who must be stopped increasing the national debt. As a matter of fact, Lyndsey Graham has come out and flatly stated that there must be cuts to Social Security and Medicare before Republicans will agree to raise the debt ceiling. So my question about this is, surely Democrats will not capitulate to any negotiations regarding Graham's demand, surely Democrats will ignore this demand for cuts SS and Medicare? Also, why is raising the debt ceiling the narrative now? Republicans are excellent at controlling the narrative because the MSM is complicit with them. We need Democrats to force the narrative back where it belongs, S1, bold infrastructure, getting vaccinated and suppressing Covid mutations, getting to the bottom of who was behind the insurrection and not just holding the people who invaded the Capitol accountable but the funders and members of Congress who were complicit.
I will appreciate anyone who can talk me off the ledge I am on.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,911 posts)Deeds will speak louder than any words if Democrats manage to implement most of Biden's Infrastructure+ agenda. Moods and polls and talking points may swing wildly in the months prior to this session of Congress ending. What will ultimately matter is what Democrats deliver on prior to the Midterms. That will define the messaging that matters, when it matters most, for better or for worse.
Comfortably_Numb
(3,796 posts)you. I am back to largely avoiding my preferred news channels/shows, CNN MSNBC, because the narrative has become toxic. They bloviate that Biden is losing this . Giving up on this . Blah blah blah. They ignore the reality that only one major political party, our DemocratIC party believes in our democratic form of government and is working for the people and it is sickening. I get the ratings whoring that mainstream media is beholden to. I dont have to support it or like it though.
Bettie
(16,072 posts)wish I felt more confident.
Be warned, you will be labelled a "doom and gloomer". That's always the answer to asking any questions whatsoever.
Comfortably_Numb
(3,796 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)whatever that is. The M$M sees to that.
uponit7771
(90,302 posts)... studies showing dem "narrative", brand or message down ballot was weak while it was strong at top.
Tadpole Raisin
(972 posts)In the past I would pull my hair out at how gullible and ineffectual democrats could be, trying to be so fair that they got run over.
Whereas republicans would develop slogans theyd repeat ad nauseam until people believed it (was that Goebbels?) Democrats would try to explain in detail the logic of their argument and lose the masses before they began the third sentence.
That being said things feel a little bit different this time. If not for the close margins in Congress I think they would be more aggressive and if we are lucky enough to thwart history and gain seats in the midterms I think Ds will push harder.
Its the news media who has the short attention span and I am hoping Ds will keep their nose to the grindstone and not get pulled off course. They seem to be doing a better job at this chess game (with a little poker thrown in).
But I leave it to wiser and more experience posters to tell us more. Dont give up!
CrispyQ
(36,423 posts)We still haven't recovered. I see fight in our younger dems, but the old guard has been slow to recognized the change in the Republican Party & it may cost us our country. Looking forward, not holding the repubs accountable, has emboldened them. Their next strongman won't be a crude, rude, incompetent fool.
former9thward
(31,940 posts)JFK was killed by Oswald who had defected to the Soviet Union. His past was as an activist with pro Castro groups. RFK was killed by a Palestinian who was upset by RFK's support for Israel.
CrispyQ
(36,423 posts)Boomerproud
(7,941 posts)If we don't continue to fight for the right thing they will have died in vain.
DFW
(54,295 posts)All members of Congress have their tiny pet projects and/or agendas. The difference between Democrats and Republicans seems to be that Democrats are willing to see good projects delayed or dead if they dont get their way, where Republicans act as if none of their pet projects is worth even mentioning, and their main task is forming a solid block to any and all Democratic initiatives.
They use this as their main accomplishment to present as reason to re-elect them, and the media backs them up. Far from being ashamed of the label, The Party of NO thrives on the title.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)It's just that some take a doom and gloom perspective, then blame Democrats for everything wrong. Too many times it's "Democrats are useless unless they do what I want". As far as I'm concerned those who constantly blame Democrats as if they could wave a magic wand to fix everything can go...
gab13by13
(21,264 posts)never said that. I want them to fight harder.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)"Democrats are useless unless they do what I want" camp?
Ponietz
(2,937 posts)🙏
I'm not allowed to ask a question?
Crunchy Frog
(26,578 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Bettie
(16,072 posts)"sea lioning"...."well, I'm just asking a question..."
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)That is my opinion, but typically a question that is really asking for an answer, is neutral and one interlocutor invites the other to share information without any assumption.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)But this is a discussion forum and people are allowed to have opinions. Too many post something expecting everyone else to just automatically agree with them and as soon as someone disagrees they get all defensive and try to move the goal posts of what they said.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)rather than an opinion.
There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. You are also right that some people expect everyone to share their opinion and get defensive.
When we are communicating however, we should look to see whether our own words are fostering an environment of discussion, or if we are helping to push them into a defensive posture.
You can ask your question in a way that puts the person into a defensive posture like, "Are you just one of those people who are into doom and gloom?" OR you can ask, "Can you expand on why you think things are so bad for the Democrats?"
Obviously, that alone doesn't solve the issue that some people just want to shit on whatever they want to, or are panicking, or whatever else may be going on internally, but at least you are doing your part to foster discussion... right?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)come up to your high standards. But then of course it doesnt have to. Or do you make the rules here?
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Just trying to give some friendly advice.
Good luck.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Ill ask for it.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)This being a discussion board and all, when someone with an opinion, sees something they don't agree with, maybe they'll point it out and offer some advice regardless.
You know, this being a discussion board where people have opinions and no one can tell them what to do and all...
You can take it or leave it.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)But I do mind someone giving condescending advice because my approach doesnt meet their personal standard.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)I just don't like when people make assumptions about other people's motivations and put that into bad faith questions.
See how anyone can do that?
I think we should agree to disagree and move on. I am sure we will agree on things in the future and disagree on others.
You do you and I will do me.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Youre making an assumption about my motivation in asking it. So you are guilty of what you are accusing me of doing yourself. So maybe next time you decide to lecture someone on their approach you should start with the person in the mirror and not pretend that you are the arbitrator or what is and isnt appropriate for others say in their posts.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Like I said, we can go around and around on this.
As I said, I don't make the rules and I am not the arbitrator. I am just responding to a post on a discussion forum where no one can tell us what to do, where we are free to ask questions, but we should also expect to get questions and opinions in return, which maybe do agree with us.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)about my motivation, which is what you accused me of doing, and proceeded to lecture me on my approach as if you were the arbitrator of what is appropriate to post. So please dont try to walk back now that you were called out on it.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Go back and read your initial question to the poster and honestly tell me that you were asking that question solely to elicit a response without making any kind of judgement.
I will fully admit that I made the assumption that you asked the question in bad faith. I am not in your head. I can only infer from the wording of the question. That is the assumption I made and based on that assumption I gave the advice I gave.
This thread has been going on for multiple posts and 2 days now because you appear to be upset that you got called out, not only by me mind you.
I am only willing to continue the conversation where others just admonished you and moved on. So, here we are.
I can keep going. Just understand that I am able to see my flaws. I am a high self monitor. I am pedantic and verbose. I do make assumptions. My writing may appear condescending and sometimes it is, on purpose.
Are you willing to look at yourself and your own motivations too?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)You are playing games and have been from the beginning. Maybe you should take your own advice instead of forcing it on people who dont want it.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)You can just not respond and step away.
You seem to have no insight into your own behaviors.
This is interesting to me. I can keep going.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)If I want advice, Ill ask for it. And again maybe you should start taking your own advice and step away.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)As I said, this is interesting to me. Learning a lot.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Heres something to learn, attacking someone else for behavior that you yourself are guilty of is called hypocrisy.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Something you might want to consider.
When one person calls you out, it might be them. When more than one person calls you out, it's probably you.
How many people have called you out?
How many have called me out?
Another thing you might want to think about.
Why is it that you have not directly answered any of the questions I have asked through out the whole thread.
Yes, learning a lot.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)For centuries most people thought the earth was flat. Didnt make right.
For centuries most people thought slavery was ok. Didnt make them right.
Millions believe that Biden stole the election and Trump really won. Just because others agree with your opinion doesnt make you right.
And Im under no obligation to answer any questions.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Keep going.
You absolutely do not have to answer any questions, but then aren't we on a discussion board?
Or maybe you just want to ask questions maybe not in good faith and then spend a whole thread being defensive and responding to every comment or question as if you and only you matter.
Learning...
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Again I didnt realize that you made the rules here.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)You can do whatever you please as long as it doesn't violate the TOS.
At no time did I say explicitly or implicitly that you can or cannot do anything. Even if I did, you have already stated, and I stipulated, maybe twice now, that you don't have to listen to me.
Since we are starting to repeat ourselves here, the shine is wearing off here.
I will leave you to battle it out with the others.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)And you dont have to listen to me either.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)defend myself?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Seems you have an issue. Or was just a personal attack?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)You really are defensive.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)of your post?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Need there be more?
Why did you feel it necessary to point out other than to engage in an attack?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)you don't seem willing to accept my answer. Which is one of the ways I see you expressing your defensiveness.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Why did you feel it necessary to post other than to attack?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)if you felt attacked that's what you did with my observation.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)make an observation? What was the point of making an observation? I make observations all the time but dont always feel the need to post them unless I have a point.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I don't know why you want it to be more.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Why did you feel the need to point it out? And just because is not an answer.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Maybe don't post so defensively on a public comment forum if you don't want it mentioned.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)You dont know what your motivation was? Is this true of other actions you take in life?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Do you really think this is demonstrating how you are not defensive?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)That I was defending myself. I was. Im just curious as to why you felt the need to point it out. What was the goal of doing so? And refusing to an answer a question is a type of defensive behavior.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I read your comments and you come off as very defensive. There is no further goal i saw and I commented if that is too much for you I can't help you.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I dont take an action unless there is a reason behind it. So again Ill ask the question, do you often take actions and not know why you did? For example, do you go to the store and not know why you went there?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)on a public message board and commenting on said posts is reason enough for me. If that's not enough for you it isn't my fault.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I only respond to or comment on them if I have a point to make. So what was the point of your comment?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)do you suspect is lurking? The point is you are very defensive in your posting. It was glaring enough I felt I should mention it. What is the point of your comment on my shopping behavior?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)There must be a reason why you felt you should mention it.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)You said you felt the need to comment. Plenty of posts stick out, thats not an answer. So stop being so defensive and state the reason why you felt the need to comment.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)you not accepting my answer is your doing. If this seems defensive to you I can live with that.
You gave a defensive non-answer. You said you felt the need to comment. Why did you feel the need to comment? Simple question, should be a simple answer.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)ridiculously defensive after trying to characterize another poster as a bad Democrat. The defensiveness was so glaring i felt it need to point it out.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I was asking a question to determine the purpose behind their statements. However, you have characterized me as being defensive yet youve been defensive when asked to explain why you felt the need to comment. So youve done what youve accused me of doing.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)It is rare to see someone so dedicated to the I'm rubber and you're glue strategy.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)as well as still not answering my question as why you felt the need to comment.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)a ridiculously defensive person. I think you have provided ample evidence of that.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Now just be as honest about why you felt the need to comment about it.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)honesty in this thread.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Tell me what have I lied about?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)regarding my answering your bullshit inquiry for one. That gab13by13 is a bad Democrat for two. Join that with a general mean spiritedness and bad faith arguing you are regular trifecta.
Brother Buzz
(36,379 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)... automatically agree with them and as soon as someone disagrees they get all defensive". You said too many people blame Democrats for everything wrong; the poster replied they didn't, and then you illogically said 'so you're in the "Democrats are useless unless they do what I want" camp?' (which was the camp of, in your extremely limited worldview, those who blame Democrats for everything wrong" ). When asked to stop (even with a ''pleading" emoji - after all, you are making a mockery of discussion) - you pretend you aren't being allowed to discuss things.
Really, I plead with you to take a break from this thread, come back, read your own posts objectively, and reconsider your style of discussion. It'd be better for everyone.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)you dont have to read them.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)so it seems worth trying to get you to think again. Of course, if you don't like posts on DU, you don't have to reply to them.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)when I disagree and when Im attacked.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)"You don't have to read my posts" is a useless reply, which shows you're not trying to have a serious conversation, or thinking how your own posts might actually be received.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)They are attacking my approach rather than actually discussing the issue.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)because #9 was not an attempt to discuss the issue. It was a cheap, though invalid, shot based on your own earlier post rather than something anyone else had said. Nothing you have said in the sub-thread under that has been anything to do with the thread subject.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)And have been relentless attacked for it. If there wasnt a continued piling on in an attempt to bully me there wouldnt be a sub-thread.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)'So you're in the "Democrats are useless unless they do what I want" camp?' was a profoundly stupid 'question' to ask, even by the logic of your previous post. If there's any 'bullying' in this thread, that was the first example of it.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Youre not in my head and dont know what my motivation was.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)"But this is a discussion forum and people are allowed to have opinions. Too many post something expecting everyone else to just automatically agree with them and as soon as someone disagrees they get all defensive and try to move the goal posts of what they said." - as you said.
If your posts come across, to more than one person, as bad faith, it could be a sign you need to rethink how you post.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)But it wasnt bad faith, thats making an unfair assumption. Provocative? Yes . Stated in artfully. Maybe. But still not an excuse for being attacked in an attempt to bully me.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)'So you're in the "Democrats are useless unless they do what I want" camp?'
The problem is that what you said doesn't look "inartful" or "provocative" to others. Calling you out for it is not "bullying". And the first accusation of bullying came from you; then, you seemed happy to assume the motivation of others.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)and Trump is really the President. Doesnt make them right. And there are millions of them. Far more than the handful of people here who objected to me asking a question.
I asked a question. Maybe in artfully. But it was just a question. No need for the vitriol that Ive gotten in response.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)I think you know that your "question" wasn't a real one, but an attempt to score a cheap point, along the lines of the classic "when did you stop beating your wife?". If we point out your failures in argument, you may learn from them and not repeat them. That's the point. I recommend you do look up "sealioning", though.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I admit I was being provocative. Continuing to attack me for it is vitriol.
Texasgal
(17,038 posts)That's two minutes of my life wasted.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Useless posturing doesn't get anything done, either.
The votes have to be there. "Fighting" is not a thing. Bernie does all this "fighting" but nothing happens. "Fighting" Manchin, how do the Democrats do that? How do they "fight" the Turtle? How do they get Republican votes by means of a "fight?"
gab13by13
(21,264 posts)if I were Chuck Schumer I would break up S1 into individual bills with the obvious no brainers in the beginning. Bring each bill up for a vote rapid fire, one after the other, and when Republicans vote every bill down go to Manchin, Sinema, and whoever and ask them why they are against a filibuster carve out for election bills.
That is what I call fighting.
I am just a flunkie so I'm sure that smarter Senators can come up with similar ideas.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I don't understand the arcane Senate procedures, but it looks like they already did some major fighting when they got the Parliamentarian ruling that they could pass more than one budget bill filibuster free. But no one posted on DU to give credit for that "fight."
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)Concrete examples of what you think is possible, and what (let's say) you would do if you were Pelosi, or Schumer. With the caveat of taking a look at the media environment, what is it that Democrats should be doing to "recapture" the narrative?
treestar
(82,383 posts)As if the Democrats are willfully lazy. As if there are things they could easily do, but refuse to. Never looking at the system as it is. It favors those who dont want change. That makes Republican obstruction easier for Republicans. Democrats do t want to obstruct. They want passage.
This is why it is frustrating to see them criticized for not doing enough. It is we who could do more We could protest, get out the vote and plod along not expecting fast results. But it is easier to sit back and claim someone is else is not fighting hard enough.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)I don't mind when people criticize a situation they don't like, but I prefer that they state what they would do differently.
treestar
(82,383 posts)What does it entail? How do they do that?
iemanja
(53,012 posts)Bills need to get a majority of votes. Biden doesn't rule by fiat.
Ponietz
(2,937 posts)Its great with the little fish but gives every impression of impotence, indifference, and even sympathy for the traitors. Nothing works while criminal malefactors walk free, and the Congressional investigation will hit the pause button on law enforcement.
There is every indication the rightwill attempt to seize power permanently at the next opportunity. In the past 5 years some in the opposing camp even merited FISA warrants. WTF? Where are the indictments?
brooklynite
(94,352 posts)How often do you get a briefing from them?
Ponietz
(2,937 posts)while many, many people attempted to sound the alarm. You didnt take those warnings seriously, then, so I dont expect much now from you, honestly.
brooklynite
(94,352 posts)I have confidence in Joe Biden DOJ and FBI. Perhaps you dont?
Ponietz
(2,937 posts)Just yesterday we learned the FBI did NOT investigate Kavanaugh as directed to by the Senate. Any confidence in the FBI right now is overconfidence, it seems.
dajoki
(10,678 posts)every time one of the Q's decide to say or do something stupidly different the media just allows them to rant on without any pushback. That being said, our Democratic lawmakers and strategists need to step up their game and keep the pressure on at all times. S1 must get passed one way or another, it's too important to all of us, not to mention the future of our country.
Caliman73
(11,725 posts)When the model of media is one of corporately controlled outlets that are driven by the profit motive, the side that relies on sound policy, fact, and being honest with the people, will always be at a disadvantage. The side that engages in hyperbole or outright lying, and expresses no shame and no remorse for the damage they do, will have an advantage because they are willing to say and do anything that brings attention to their cause.
I also completely agree that Democrats should, every time they get the chance, (and creating their own chances) pound away at the Republicans with true, but more fiery language. Call a LIAR a LIAR. McCarthy is a provable LIAR. They should say that. Jordan is disruptive and never comes to congress in good faith. Say that. Joy Reid says it on her show, however, her audience does not have the reach of ABC, NBC, or even Fox shows.
If neither S1 or the Infrastructure bill are passed through. It will be difficult for Democrats to maintain their majorities in the House and Senate. If they lose those chambers, Joe Biden will likely be a one term President.
joetheman
(1,450 posts)get the hell out and vote in every fucking election from dog catcher to President! Allow no unopposed or unchallenged state or local elections. Run your mama if you have to. Just don't give democracy away. By the time 2022 is here the narrative will change and probably our way!
Politicub
(12,165 posts)And how does one go about not losing it?
Poiuyt
(18,115 posts)government. Dems in Congress are working hard to follow Biden's agenda, but Republicans have been largely successful at blocking it.
Remember, Democrats are also fighting against conservative state legislatures, gerrymandering, the Electoral College, the filibuster, and inadequate representation in the House.
Ponietz
(2,937 posts)Dems have two branches of government the executive and the legislative (both chambers, theoretically). The Supreme Court belongs squarely in their camp.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)The so called liberal media.
ismnotwasm
(41,965 posts)uponit7771
(90,302 posts)uponit7771
(90,302 posts)radius777
(3,635 posts)Dems (at least the ones in control of the party apparatus) have long been naive to how the game works, and constantly get played by the Repubs and the media, who aren't operating in good faith.