HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » With the goal of making t...

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:18 AM

With the goal of making the world a better place, prevent one person from having been born.

You have all of history to choose from. Who do you pick? If the answer is the obvious one (Trump), I would ask that you indicate your second choice.

51 replies, 1649 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 51 replies Author Time Post
Reply With the goal of making the world a better place, prevent one person from having been born. (Original post)
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 OP
Dream Girl Jul 23 #1
LakeArenal Jul 23 #2
MiHale Jul 23 #25
Pantagruel Jul 23 #3
lagomorph777 Jul 23 #18
Ponietz Jul 23 #4
mrsv Jul 23 #5
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #13
Aristus Jul 23 #33
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #37
Aristus Jul 23 #38
PJMcK Jul 23 #6
LakeArenal Jul 23 #28
secondwind Jul 23 #7
CurtEastPoint Jul 23 #8
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #9
2naSalit Jul 23 #10
Leith Jul 23 #31
question everything Jul 23 #11
NewDayOranges Jul 23 #12
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #17
NewDayOranges Jul 23 #24
louslobbs Jul 23 #14
nevergiveup Jul 23 #15
tenderfoot Jul 23 #16
Johnny2X2X Jul 23 #19
GulfCoast66 Jul 24 #49
USALiberal Jul 23 #20
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #21
Initech Jul 23 #27
MiHale Jul 23 #26
50 Shades Of Blue Jul 23 #22
milestogo Jul 23 #23
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 23 #29
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #30
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 23 #32
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #34
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 23 #42
Dial H For Hero Jul 23 #44
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 23 #45
Dial H For Hero Jul 24 #47
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 24 #50
Amishman Jul 23 #35
Kaleva Jul 23 #40
Paladin Jul 23 #36
Kaleva Jul 23 #39
First Speaker Jul 23 #41
48656c6c6f20 Jul 23 #43
MustLoveBeagles Jul 24 #46
Demovictory9 Jul 24 #51
Spider Jerusalem Jul 24 #48

Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:20 AM

1. Mark Zuckerberg

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:20 AM

2. Jesus.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LakeArenal (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 12:02 PM

25. +1,000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:21 AM

3. Controversial

How about JC ? If he wasn't born, would he have been "invented" ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pantagruel (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:34 AM

18. He probably was invented.

Synthesized, really, from a large group of prophets circulating in that era.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:22 AM

4. Cain

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:23 AM

5. Constantine the Great

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mrsv (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:29 AM

13. Interesting. What do you see as the benefits of that choice?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:05 PM

33. My take:

Constantine turned Christianity from a faith system into a socio-political empire, a term that would become literal with the emergence of the Byzantine Empire, which was simply a Christianized, Greek-speaking Roman Empire.

A book I finished reading last week, about Alaric the Goth, points out that as much as Roman persecution of Christians is depicted in popular media, it was actually confined to a few shorts periods in the history of the Western Roman Empire. But when Christianity became the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire, religious persecution by Christians of nearly every religion that wasn't became non-stop for roughly a thousand years. And still exists in many forms today, including the xenophobic, wealth-obsessed American evangelical churches of today.

Without Constantine's imprimatur, so many of the evils visited upon Western civilization might never have happened; black chattel slavery, imperialism, witch hunts, child labor, vulture capitalism, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Aristus (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:18 PM

37. I dunno...empires and religious heirarchies throughout history have done horrible things to people.

While a de-Christianized Europe would be different than the real thing, I'm not sure that it would be more enlightened by our standards.

There's a novel about how the world devolops without European domination: The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson. The point of divergence is around a thousand years later than Constantine (A plaugue kills 99% of Europeans), but you might want to check it out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:21 PM

38. That's a very good point.

I think you're right that a Europe never influenced for good or ill by Constantine-style Christianity wouldn't necessarily be more enlightened. It would probably just be very different in many interesting ways.

But it's interesting speculating on it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:23 AM

6. Adam

Humans suck.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PJMcK (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 12:41 PM

28. Perfect!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:25 AM

7. Second choice is Adolf Hitler

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:25 AM

8. Hitler

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:27 AM

9. Hitler.

(adding my choice to the mix)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:27 AM

10. Rupert Murdoch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 2naSalit (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 03:57 PM

31. That's my choice, too

There are thousands more to choose from.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:28 AM

11. The Turtle

It is easy to pick Hitler or Trump but neither could have done the damage without hypnotising the crowds.

The Turtle alone changed our judiciary system for the next generation.

(OK I suppose Ivan the Terrible and other historical figures who acted on their own would qualify.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:28 AM

12. King Leopold II...

That POS slaughtered even more people than Hitler...

If there is a bigger single killer in history than King Leopold II, then I would choose to prevent that POS's birth!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NewDayOranges (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:34 AM

17. I believe Mao Zedong has him beat. Genghis Kahn as well, for that matter.

Leopold II: around 10 million
Mao Zedong: 40 to 80 million
Genghis Khan: as many as 40 million

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:53 AM

24. Well then it's Mao Zedong FTW!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:30 AM

14. Vladimir Putin

N/T

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:31 AM

15. Abraham

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:31 AM

16. Edward Bernays

eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:36 AM

19. This is actually hard

Because you have to look for someone who was more than just the tipping point leader, you have to look for someone who drove things to the brink themselves and that without them, things wouldn't have gotten to that point.

Someone mentioned Jesus, but some other religion would have been used to butcher just as many people without Christianity.

Trump is a good one because although the Reps were trending wingnut, they didn't have anyone in their ranks willing to go against America as much as Trump was.

Hitler was a force, I do not think Germany gets to that extreme point without him. Although there were many extreme and evil people around him, Hitler is the only one who could have taken Germany over the many many lines they crossed.

I think if Stalin hadn't been in charge, someone equally as or maybe even more brutal than he would have done the same types of things. Pol Pot too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:27 AM

49. I think I agree with your Hitler points.

I remember walking around a German WWI cemetery in eastern France near Reims. It was surprising to see so many Star of David as the head stones. Not sure without Hitler the inherent but contained anti-semitism in Central Europe could have morphed into the Holocaust.

Plenty of leaders of early communist Russia would have gladly carried out the starvation massacre in Ukraine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:37 AM

20. How can this be anything but Hitler??? Nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to USALiberal (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:40 AM

21. He doesn't hold the record for most people killed. But the Holocaust....um, yeah.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 12:07 PM

27. And not to mention Nazism never really went away.

And in fact thanks to social media it's more popular than ever. We're truly heading for some very dark times ahead.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to USALiberal (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 12:05 PM

26. Hitler's mother or her mother...

Stop the problem upstream

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:51 AM

22. Saul/St Paul

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:52 AM

23. Adolph Hitler and Paul Kagame

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 03:25 PM

29. Those of you who'd stop Hitler from being born

should read Making History by Stephen Fry, an alternate history novel in which Hitler doesn't get born. Things are vastly worse. Really, really good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 03:54 PM

30. Hm...I read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, and I have a nitpcik.

History doesn't substantially diverge until 1932. Only six years later, the Nazis are dropping nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. There's no way that Germany in the mid-1930's could develop nuclear weapons in that amount of time, regardless of who's in charge. What's more, Germany's economy in the mid-1930's was only a quarter the size of that of the USA in the early 1940's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:00 PM

32. Nitpick as you like.

It's an excellent book. I do happen to have a great fondness for most alternate history.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:06 PM

34. My nitpick is only that. While I haven't read this particular AH book, I'm a huge fan of the

subgenre myself. My focus on a small part of the plot wasn't meant to be a criticism of the book as a whole.

Just checked my bookshelf, I have a copy. I think I'll read it tonight. Has to be better the schlock Turtledove is pumping out lately....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 05:31 PM

42. I apologize.

I expressed myself poorly. I wanted to say something along the lines of it's okay to nitpick, not to imply you are being overly fussy.

Nice to know you have a copy, and I hope you enjoy it.

I gave up on Turtledove a while back. He used to be very good, and has simply gotten lazy, in my opinion. I got a couple of chapters into Joe Steele and had to give up. It is simply not at all credible that the man we know as Stalin could have been born and raised in this country and wind up EXACTLY as he was in Russia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 06:07 PM

44. No worries, it's all good.

As for Joe Steele, I gave up on it myself. That, along with the Yellowstone series he did, pretty much made me write him off.

Still, he did good stuff in the past. Wonder what he's up to now?

(Looks up his new State of Jefferson series)

History is changed to the points that Sasquatch, Indonesian Hobbits, and Merfolk are real. Ok, I can run with that. History would be unrecognizable, so this could be interesting. They seem to be set in the late 1970's, and.....

Jimmy Carter is president, and losing in the polls due to the Iranian Hostage Crisis. He loses to Reagan, and his concession speech is word for word identical to the real one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:26 PM

45. Oh, yes, the Yellowstone trilogy.

I read all of them, just to see how he'd finally end it. As you know, the California characters spend all three books pissing and moaning about the cold. Freeze to death already, was my take. Plus the idiocy of most of the characters.

Have you ever read Time on My Hands by Peter delaCorte? An American travel writer is in an obscure museum in Paris, is told by someone else that the machine he's looking at is a time machine, and can be gotten to him. Only the man who can procure the time machine wants our hero to go back and prevent Ronald Reagan from becoming President. It was published in 1997. Wonderful.

I have the good fortune to attend various s-f cons, mainly Bubonicon in Albuquerque and Mile Hi in Denver. I've had the privilege to meet a bunch of authors, all of whom are wonderful, of course. I have not crossed paths with Harry Turtledove, although if I did I'd be polite and tell him about the books of his I've liked. No point in being rude.

Oh, and in regards to alternate history, one s-f writer I've talked with feels strongly that once you change even one small thing, you change a lot. I'm inclined to think she's right, which is one reason Joe Steel does not work.

If you are not already attending s-f cons, I hope you will start to do so. You seem like a reader who truly appreciates the genre.

Oh, and that advice applies to all who read this post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #45)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:19 AM

47. I've never even heard of the delaCorte novel. I'll have to check it out.

I have the good fortune to attend various s-f cons, mainly Bubonicon in Albuquerque and Mile Hi in Denver. I've had the privilege to meet a bunch of authors, all of whom are wonderful, of course. I have not crossed paths with Harry Turtledove, although if I did I'd be polite and tell him about the books of his I've liked. No point in being rude.


I live just outside of Denver!

Oh, and in regards to alternate history, one s-f writer I've talked with feels strongly that once you change even one small thing, you change a lot. I'm inclined to think she's right, which is one reason Joe Steel does not work.


Different writers certainly have different approaches to the subject. Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder" is the source of the Butterfly Effect, of course, but other authors have written stories where "historical inertia" makes changes difficult. As Steve Stirling once said (quoting from memory), "There are no correct alternate histories, only plausible ones."

Edit: It was Will Shetterly who said that, no Stirling. Whoops....


If you are not already attending s-f cons, I hope you will start to do so. You seem like a reader who truly appreciates the genre.

I've attended a couple of them, but not for quite some time. I should start doing so again. Perhaps I'll see you at Mile Hi!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Reply #47)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 01:09 AM

50. You are just outside of Denver!

Oh, oh, oh!! Mile Hi will happen October 1-3. I am planning on attending. Please PM me if you decide to go.

One of my few regrets in life is that I did not start attending s-f cons many years ago. Once I finally started attending, about a decade ago,(aside of some random attending of ConQuest in Kansas City) I started making many friends, especially with writers. OMG! I will only say that I got to see the 2017 eclipse with one very well known writer, which made the eclipse even better than it already was.

Honestly, my friendship with various writers has come out of attending various cons.

Along with Mile Hi and Bubonicon (which isn't too much of a stretch for someone from Denver) I attend the Jack Williamson Lectureship in Portales (OMFG! An absolutely incredible and very small event) and COSine in Colorado Springs. COSine is in January, which means going to the Springs from Santa Fe in January is a bit problematical. I'd been aware of that con for several years, and once, at Bubonicon, talked with some representatives of that con about my hesitation. We wound up agreeing that there would be a special Raton Pass price, which was the same as the advance purchase price. I'd book the hotel, but not pay for the con until I got there, just in case the Raton Pass was impassible. In the several years I've gone to COSine, I was always able to get there. It's a relatively small con, which I personally like.

Another small con is the Jack Williamson Lectureship in Portales, NM. It really is a very out of the way place, which is an important reason why it is so small. I love it. Connie Willis always attends. She gives a talk at the lunch on Saturday, which is always a hoot. I do happen to be an enormous fan of Connie Willis, who is smart, funny, and always on point. And, like so many who attend cons of any kind, is always open to meeting with fans.

In 2019 I went to SoonerCon in Norman, OK. It was perhaps the best con I've ever been to. I am looking forward to attending again, hopefully in 2022. As you might already know or guess, s-f people are extremely friendly, and the cons are wonderful. As already noted, I've been to various ones over the years. SoonerCon had a level of friendliness above and beyond what I was used to. Wow. They also had some programming quite unlike what I'd known before, such as voice acting. I might sign up for some of that at my next SoonerCon. Not that I expect to become a voice actor, but for the very different experience.

I hope all this is inspirational to you. And even if you and I never meet, I sincerely hope you attend various cons.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:09 PM

35. Lenin

Without the framework he put in place, I don't believe Stalin or Mao would have been able to become the monsters they were.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Amishman (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:31 PM

40. But it was the Imperial German govt. that transported Lenin back to Russia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:13 PM

36. Second choice: Hitler. (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:30 PM

39. The likes of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot are the products of the actions of others.

Eliminating one single person doesn't change the conditions that allowed that person to rise to a position where he could wreak havoc in the first place. Conditions created by others.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:37 PM

41. Gavrilo Princip...

...the man who shot Archduke Ferdinand at Sarajevo in 1914, sparking World War One. Without this one action, that insane war might have been avoided, and Hitler might have drifted off into obscurity as a postcard painter, and Lenin died an embittered exile, and maybe the 20th century would have been infinitely better. Maybe. What-if games are fun, but there's no way we can be sure of anything...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Fri Jul 23, 2021, 05:37 PM

43. Naturally

Gumby. Those crazy eyes and green bell bottoms. He was obviously up to no good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 48656c6c6f20 (Reply #43)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:02 AM

46. Obviously



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 48656c6c6f20 (Reply #43)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 03:26 AM

51. lol

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dial H For Hero (Original post)

Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:20 AM

48. Constantine the Great (n/t)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread