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Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:18 AM Jul 2021

With the goal of making the world a better place, prevent one person from having been born.

You have all of history to choose from. Who do you pick? If the answer is the obvious one (Trump), I would ask that you indicate your second choice.

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With the goal of making the world a better place, prevent one person from having been born. (Original Post) Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 OP
Mark Zuckerberg Dream Girl Jul 2021 #1
Jesus. LakeArenal Jul 2021 #2
+1,000 MiHale Jul 2021 #25
Controversial Pantagruel Jul 2021 #3
He probably was invented. lagomorph777 Jul 2021 #18
Cain Ponietz Jul 2021 #4
Constantine the Great mrsv Jul 2021 #5
Interesting. What do you see as the benefits of that choice? Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #13
My take: Aristus Jul 2021 #33
I dunno...empires and religious heirarchies throughout history have done horrible things to people. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #37
That's a very good point. Aristus Jul 2021 #38
Adam PJMcK Jul 2021 #6
Perfect!!!! LakeArenal Jul 2021 #28
Second choice is Adolf Hitler secondwind Jul 2021 #7
Hitler CurtEastPoint Jul 2021 #8
Hitler. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #9
Rupert Murdoch. 2naSalit Jul 2021 #10
That's my choice, too Leith Jul 2021 #31
The Turtle question everything Jul 2021 #11
King Leopold II... NewDayOranges Jul 2021 #12
I believe Mao Zedong has him beat. Genghis Kahn as well, for that matter. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #17
Well then it's Mao Zedong FTW! NewDayOranges Jul 2021 #24
Vladimir Putin louslobbs Jul 2021 #14
Abraham nevergiveup Jul 2021 #15
Edward Bernays tenderfoot Jul 2021 #16
This is actually hard Johnny2X2X Jul 2021 #19
I think I agree with your Hitler points. GulfCoast66 Jul 2021 #49
How can this be anything but Hitler??? Nt USALiberal Jul 2021 #20
He doesn't hold the record for most people killed. But the Holocaust....um, yeah. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #21
And not to mention Nazism never really went away. Initech Jul 2021 #27
Hitler's mother or her mother... MiHale Jul 2021 #26
Saul/St Paul 50 Shades Of Blue Jul 2021 #22
Adolph Hitler and Paul Kagame milestogo Jul 2021 #23
Those of you who'd stop Hitler from being born PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2021 #29
Hm...I read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, and I have a nitpcik. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #30
Nitpick as you like. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2021 #32
My nitpick is only that. While I haven't read this particular AH book, I'm a huge fan of the Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #34
I apologize. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2021 #42
No worries, it's all good. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #44
Oh, yes, the Yellowstone trilogy. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2021 #45
I've never even heard of the delaCorte novel. I'll have to check it out. Dial H For Hero Jul 2021 #47
You are just outside of Denver! PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2021 #50
Lenin Amishman Jul 2021 #35
But it was the Imperial German govt. that transported Lenin back to Russia. Kaleva Jul 2021 #40
Second choice: Hitler. (nt) Paladin Jul 2021 #36
The likes of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot are the products of the actions of others. Kaleva Jul 2021 #39
Gavrilo Princip... First Speaker Jul 2021 #41
Naturally 48656c6c6f20 Jul 2021 #43
Obviously MustLoveBeagles Jul 2021 #46
lol Demovictory9 Jul 2021 #51
Constantine the Great (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Jul 2021 #48

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
18. He probably was invented.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:34 AM
Jul 2021

Synthesized, really, from a large group of prophets circulating in that era.

Aristus

(66,468 posts)
33. My take:
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:05 PM
Jul 2021

Constantine turned Christianity from a faith system into a socio-political empire, a term that would become literal with the emergence of the Byzantine Empire, which was simply a Christianized, Greek-speaking Roman Empire.

A book I finished reading last week, about Alaric the Goth, points out that as much as Roman persecution of Christians is depicted in popular media, it was actually confined to a few shorts periods in the history of the Western Roman Empire. But when Christianity became the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire, religious persecution by Christians of nearly every religion that wasn't became non-stop for roughly a thousand years. And still exists in many forms today, including the xenophobic, wealth-obsessed American evangelical churches of today.

Without Constantine's imprimatur, so many of the evils visited upon Western civilization might never have happened; black chattel slavery, imperialism, witch hunts, child labor, vulture capitalism, etc.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
37. I dunno...empires and religious heirarchies throughout history have done horrible things to people.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:18 PM
Jul 2021

While a de-Christianized Europe would be different than the real thing, I'm not sure that it would be more enlightened by our standards.

There's a novel about how the world devolops without European domination: The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson. The point of divergence is around a thousand years later than Constantine (A plaugue kills 99% of Europeans), but you might want to check it out.

Aristus

(66,468 posts)
38. That's a very good point.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:21 PM
Jul 2021

I think you're right that a Europe never influenced for good or ill by Constantine-style Christianity wouldn't necessarily be more enlightened. It would probably just be very different in many interesting ways.

But it's interesting speculating on it.

question everything

(47,544 posts)
11. The Turtle
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:28 AM
Jul 2021

It is easy to pick Hitler or Trump but neither could have done the damage without hypnotising the crowds.

The Turtle alone changed our judiciary system for the next generation.

(OK I suppose Ivan the Terrible and other historical figures who acted on their own would qualify.)

NewDayOranges

(693 posts)
12. King Leopold II...
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:28 AM
Jul 2021

That POS slaughtered even more people than Hitler...

If there is a bigger single killer in history than King Leopold II, then I would choose to prevent that POS's birth!

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
17. I believe Mao Zedong has him beat. Genghis Kahn as well, for that matter.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:34 AM
Jul 2021

Leopold II: around 10 million
Mao Zedong: 40 to 80 million
Genghis Khan: as many as 40 million

Johnny2X2X

(19,140 posts)
19. This is actually hard
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:36 AM
Jul 2021

Because you have to look for someone who was more than just the tipping point leader, you have to look for someone who drove things to the brink themselves and that without them, things wouldn't have gotten to that point.

Someone mentioned Jesus, but some other religion would have been used to butcher just as many people without Christianity.

Trump is a good one because although the Reps were trending wingnut, they didn't have anyone in their ranks willing to go against America as much as Trump was.

Hitler was a force, I do not think Germany gets to that extreme point without him. Although there were many extreme and evil people around him, Hitler is the only one who could have taken Germany over the many many lines they crossed.

I think if Stalin hadn't been in charge, someone equally as or maybe even more brutal than he would have done the same types of things. Pol Pot too.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
49. I think I agree with your Hitler points.
Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:27 AM
Jul 2021

I remember walking around a German WWI cemetery in eastern France near Reims. It was surprising to see so many Star of David as the head stones. Not sure without Hitler the inherent but contained anti-semitism in Central Europe could have morphed into the Holocaust.

Plenty of leaders of early communist Russia would have gladly carried out the starvation massacre in Ukraine.

Initech

(100,107 posts)
27. And not to mention Nazism never really went away.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 12:07 PM
Jul 2021

And in fact thanks to social media it's more popular than ever. We're truly heading for some very dark times ahead.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,906 posts)
29. Those of you who'd stop Hitler from being born
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 03:25 PM
Jul 2021

should read Making History by Stephen Fry, an alternate history novel in which Hitler doesn't get born. Things are vastly worse. Really, really good.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
30. Hm...I read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, and I have a nitpcik.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 03:54 PM
Jul 2021

History doesn't substantially diverge until 1932. Only six years later, the Nazis are dropping nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. There's no way that Germany in the mid-1930's could develop nuclear weapons in that amount of time, regardless of who's in charge. What's more, Germany's economy in the mid-1930's was only a quarter the size of that of the USA in the early 1940's.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
34. My nitpick is only that. While I haven't read this particular AH book, I'm a huge fan of the
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:06 PM
Jul 2021

subgenre myself. My focus on a small part of the plot wasn't meant to be a criticism of the book as a whole.

Just checked my bookshelf, I have a copy. I think I'll read it tonight. Has to be better the schlock Turtledove is pumping out lately....

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,906 posts)
42. I apologize.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 05:31 PM
Jul 2021

I expressed myself poorly. I wanted to say something along the lines of it's okay to nitpick, not to imply you are being overly fussy.

Nice to know you have a copy, and I hope you enjoy it.

I gave up on Turtledove a while back. He used to be very good, and has simply gotten lazy, in my opinion. I got a couple of chapters into Joe Steele and had to give up. It is simply not at all credible that the man we know as Stalin could have been born and raised in this country and wind up EXACTLY as he was in Russia.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
44. No worries, it's all good.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 06:07 PM
Jul 2021

As for Joe Steele, I gave up on it myself. That, along with the Yellowstone series he did, pretty much made me write him off.

Still, he did good stuff in the past. Wonder what he's up to now?

(Looks up his new State of Jefferson series)

History is changed to the points that Sasquatch, Indonesian Hobbits, and Merfolk are real. Ok, I can run with that. History would be unrecognizable, so this could be interesting. They seem to be set in the late 1970's, and.....

Jimmy Carter is president, and losing in the polls due to the Iranian Hostage Crisis. He loses to Reagan, and his concession speech is word for word identical to the real one.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,906 posts)
45. Oh, yes, the Yellowstone trilogy.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 11:26 PM
Jul 2021

I read all of them, just to see how he'd finally end it. As you know, the California characters spend all three books pissing and moaning about the cold. Freeze to death already, was my take. Plus the idiocy of most of the characters.

Have you ever read Time on My Hands by Peter delaCorte? An American travel writer is in an obscure museum in Paris, is told by someone else that the machine he's looking at is a time machine, and can be gotten to him. Only the man who can procure the time machine wants our hero to go back and prevent Ronald Reagan from becoming President. It was published in 1997. Wonderful.

I have the good fortune to attend various s-f cons, mainly Bubonicon in Albuquerque and Mile Hi in Denver. I've had the privilege to meet a bunch of authors, all of whom are wonderful, of course. I have not crossed paths with Harry Turtledove, although if I did I'd be polite and tell him about the books of his I've liked. No point in being rude.

Oh, and in regards to alternate history, one s-f writer I've talked with feels strongly that once you change even one small thing, you change a lot. I'm inclined to think she's right, which is one reason Joe Steel does not work.

If you are not already attending s-f cons, I hope you will start to do so. You seem like a reader who truly appreciates the genre.

Oh, and that advice applies to all who read this post.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
47. I've never even heard of the delaCorte novel. I'll have to check it out.
Sat Jul 24, 2021, 12:19 AM
Jul 2021
I have the good fortune to attend various s-f cons, mainly Bubonicon in Albuquerque and Mile Hi in Denver. I've had the privilege to meet a bunch of authors, all of whom are wonderful, of course. I have not crossed paths with Harry Turtledove, although if I did I'd be polite and tell him about the books of his I've liked. No point in being rude.


I live just outside of Denver!

Oh, and in regards to alternate history, one s-f writer I've talked with feels strongly that once you change even one small thing, you change a lot. I'm inclined to think she's right, which is one reason Joe Steel does not work.


Different writers certainly have different approaches to the subject. Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder" is the source of the Butterfly Effect, of course, but other authors have written stories where "historical inertia" makes changes difficult. As Steve Stirling once said (quoting from memory), "There are no correct alternate histories, only plausible ones."

Edit: It was Will Shetterly who said that, no Stirling. Whoops....


If you are not already attending s-f cons, I hope you will start to do so. You seem like a reader who truly appreciates the genre.

I've attended a couple of them, but not for quite some time. I should start doing so again. Perhaps I'll see you at Mile Hi!

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,906 posts)
50. You are just outside of Denver!
Sat Jul 24, 2021, 01:09 AM
Jul 2021

Oh, oh, oh!! Mile Hi will happen October 1-3. I am planning on attending. Please PM me if you decide to go.

One of my few regrets in life is that I did not start attending s-f cons many years ago. Once I finally started attending, about a decade ago,(aside of some random attending of ConQuest in Kansas City) I started making many friends, especially with writers. OMG! I will only say that I got to see the 2017 eclipse with one very well known writer, which made the eclipse even better than it already was.

Honestly, my friendship with various writers has come out of attending various cons.

Along with Mile Hi and Bubonicon (which isn't too much of a stretch for someone from Denver) I attend the Jack Williamson Lectureship in Portales (OMFG! An absolutely incredible and very small event) and COSine in Colorado Springs. COSine is in January, which means going to the Springs from Santa Fe in January is a bit problematical. I'd been aware of that con for several years, and once, at Bubonicon, talked with some representatives of that con about my hesitation. We wound up agreeing that there would be a special Raton Pass price, which was the same as the advance purchase price. I'd book the hotel, but not pay for the con until I got there, just in case the Raton Pass was impassible. In the several years I've gone to COSine, I was always able to get there. It's a relatively small con, which I personally like.

Another small con is the Jack Williamson Lectureship in Portales, NM. It really is a very out of the way place, which is an important reason why it is so small. I love it. Connie Willis always attends. She gives a talk at the lunch on Saturday, which is always a hoot. I do happen to be an enormous fan of Connie Willis, who is smart, funny, and always on point. And, like so many who attend cons of any kind, is always open to meeting with fans.

In 2019 I went to SoonerCon in Norman, OK. It was perhaps the best con I've ever been to. I am looking forward to attending again, hopefully in 2022. As you might already know or guess, s-f people are extremely friendly, and the cons are wonderful. As already noted, I've been to various ones over the years. SoonerCon had a level of friendliness above and beyond what I was used to. Wow. They also had some programming quite unlike what I'd known before, such as voice acting. I might sign up for some of that at my next SoonerCon. Not that I expect to become a voice actor, but for the very different experience.

I hope all this is inspirational to you. And even if you and I never meet, I sincerely hope you attend various cons.

Amishman

(5,559 posts)
35. Lenin
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:09 PM
Jul 2021

Without the framework he put in place, I don't believe Stalin or Mao would have been able to become the monsters they were.

Kaleva

(36,356 posts)
39. The likes of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot are the products of the actions of others.
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:30 PM
Jul 2021

Eliminating one single person doesn't change the conditions that allowed that person to rise to a position where he could wreak havoc in the first place. Conditions created by others.

First Speaker

(4,858 posts)
41. Gavrilo Princip...
Fri Jul 23, 2021, 04:37 PM
Jul 2021

...the man who shot Archduke Ferdinand at Sarajevo in 1914, sparking World War One. Without this one action, that insane war might have been avoided, and Hitler might have drifted off into obscurity as a postcard painter, and Lenin died an embittered exile, and maybe the 20th century would have been infinitely better. Maybe. What-if games are fun, but there's no way we can be sure of anything...

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