Not for one second did Donald Trump ever actually think he won the election

[NCcoast]

I thought this deserved its own thread.

Too often the media has suggested that Donald Trump is delusional. Nonsense.

Donald Trump is not delusional. He's a committed and calculating liar. There is a huge difference. Suggesting that Trump is delusional implies that he is in the grips of an uncontrolable mental disorder. He is not. He's fully aware of what he is doing. It's a technique. As a committed liar you never admit to the lie. And some, hopefully a politically effective number of people, will believe you. I suspected this is something he learned from Roy Cohn along with always attack, always stay on the offensive.

Here's Billy Bush, the guy on the bus (Grab them by the ...." that guy), another guy whose life was ruined by the presence of Trump, relating an off camera conversation with Trump that makes it very clear that Trump's lying is a technique which he is fully aware of.

Jump to 4:37 in the video if it doesn't start there as I had hoped.

?t=272

[Wounded Bear]

1. Indeed! nt

[brush]

2. He's both a liar and delusional. In a rambling, ranting speech today...

he wondered why LeBron James doesn't go through transgender conversion so he can compete against women and win.

If that's not delusional, nothing is.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. That is a totally calculated talking point, and it's not 'delusional' on his part

He's pandering to his audience's paranoia that everything liberals want to do ... will take things away from you ... white straight xtian murica.

Entertaining the delusions of his audience, IOW, dog-whistling very purposefully and with malice aforethought.

[brush]

23. Yeah, sure. FYI: LeBron James has no desire to go thru transgender conversion...

as he wins already as a man. That bit of insanity was just out of nowhere rambling by trump and had no connection to anything else in his speech.

But carry on.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

32. Of course those things are true, but there is still a method to what looks like madness

Their anti-trans-in-sports hype is that 'men will pretend to be women so they can compete in women's sports and win'.

So he picks a very-successful male athlete (note also: black, and not beloved by whites like Jordan or Steph Curry) and posits the possibility that even he might be prone to 'cheat you' like this.

It doesn't matter it makes no sense and would never happen. It's just a shout-out to their paranoia, it's dog-whistling.

And I would bet it was calculated, he had it planned to say this. But he doesn't believe it would happen.

[brush]

35. So you're contending that trump is completely sane and in control of his faculties 24/7?

Explain pls.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

36. No, I'm not claiming that

I simply contended that many things he says that sound insane to US ... are arguably not ... when viewed in the context of his target audience, and how he is trying to manipulate them.

'His people' know what he means, and they love that it makes 'libs' fly off the handle, hate him, and imagine he's crazy.

It's all part of the show.

I'm sure there's some things he is legit delusional about, but otoh that is probably true of most human beings at least to some extent. It does appear his thinking is becoming more delusional over the years I agree to that. Just not that this particular instance is illustrative.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Same reason tRump doesn't undergo gender conversion to get women's vote. It's a talking point

tRump is delusional about many things (nukes on hurricanes, bleach against virus) but not this point.

[brush]

25. If that's a talking point, it's only been talked about by trump and is completely...

imagined from his own deranged brain and has been used by no one else before or since because it's illogical and makes no sense as LeBron James is already a successful and winning male athlete. Of course trump uses Goebbels' "big lie" technique (has for years) and knows he lost the election, but he's still nuts.

And I hope the republicans are foolish enough to give him their presidential nomination for '24 as IMO his delusions will be even more evident by then.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. It's RepubliQon, CONservative, QAnon and trumpanzee talking point for some time now

The strategy is to ridicule the idea of gender conversion by supposing that many athletes are eager to switch from male to female because then they could win all the races and all the games in women's sports by totally dominating the women.

Of course it is just nonsense, just like the strategy of calling homosexuality and bisexuality a "lifestyle choice", as if heterosexuals woke up one day and said "Gosh, I really would like to be heterosexual".

Similarly, gender disphoria is obviously not a choice, even if the reich wing would like to pretend it is.

[brush]

29. I've never heard the LeBron James ridiculousness before. It makes no sense...

as winning as a male athlete is much more lucrative and frankly, more prestigious, than winning as a female athlete. You've heard specifically this foolishness directed at LeBron James before?

I haven't.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

30. LeBron James is just the latest example of an ongoing trope. Characters change, story is same. . nt

[brush]

31. So is it your contention that trump is entirely cognizant and in touch with...

reality 24/7?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. No, that is not my contention. It contradicts what I wrote in post #16

tRump is clever (cognizant) about some things: media including social media and using other people's money. He has never been wise and he has clearly been delusional about bleach and his legal powers as president, to cite only two examples. He is both delusional and cognizant at various times (of course not both at one instant on one point).

I avoid all-or-nothing thinking as much as I can.

I wrote:

Committed liars like tRump often have difficulty separating their lies (fantasies) from reality

To some extent, they have to believe the lie a little bit so they can act the lie convincingly.

In tRump's case, his mental capacities were never great and are diminished now. He sometimes does not know his lies are lies and sometimes he does.

[brush]

34. Now you're talking.

[secondwind]

3. He knew he was going to lose. Yes, he did. And

MONTHS before the election, he began to set the stage: “If I lose, it’s because it was rigged.” Every other word was RIGGED, rigged this, rigged that

HE KNEW.

[NCcoast]

13. That's exactly right

And right to my point. He knew he was going to lose so he started planting the idea early on that the only way he would lose is if it were stolen.

[FakeNoose]

21. And yet, he was the guy in charge

... he was the one doing the rigging. And he still couldn't win even after he rigged the election.

Chump wanted to turn us into a Banana Republic. Because after all, in those Banana Republics the tyrant always wins every rigged election. Am I right? I mean, what tyrant would rig an election to make himself lose?

It's just bizarre, twisted logic and it's further proof that Chump knew everything that was happening. He orchestrated most of it, and went along with all of it.

[NanceGreggs]

4. Being a committed ...

... and calculating liar and being delusional are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, in Trump's case, they seem to be inter-connected.

[brush]

24. That's so evident. I don't get why some here, after observing him for the last five or so...

years, haven't come to the same conclusion. He uses the big lie technique and is also exhibiting more and more breaks from reality, as in his recent meandering and totally disconnected wondering in a speech as to why LeBron James doesn't have go through transgender conversion.

[Hortensis]

6. I think he's both, generally sufficiently anchored to reality, and calculating,

but also with obvious mental issues. One of Cohen's secret recordings about business reveals a normal-sounding, order-giving boss who knows his dishonest business (whether he's good at it or not), but that doesn't rule out personality disorder and possible other mental issues.

But you're right, of course, that he knows he didn't win. He's using techniques to manipulate people that have worked for him for decades.

In any case, this reminds me of Trump telling someone that he's always acting and the Trump people think they know isn't the real him. One of the few things he's said that I believe, though mental health experts are an exception.

[NCcoast]

17. I'm not saying Trump has a normal psychology

Far from it. And his narcissisms does make him delusional about his own abilities. But I still say he is absolutely aware that he lost the election but will never concede that point.

[Hortensis]

18. Agree. Republican presidents are supposed to disappear

into the genteel obscurity of a golf course, but that's not possible for someone addicted to adulation, no matter how many he owned. And certainly not while there are still fortunes to grift from it.

[NCcoast]

19. Let me add one more element to that

I cringed when Robert Mueller did not suggest that Trump be indicted, but said he certainly could be indicted for crimes committed when he was no longer president. He painted Trump into a corner. Sure he wanted to be president for life, and thought he deserved it. But now Trump knew if he ever left office the wolves would be at his door and he would not have the powers of the presidency at his disposal to fend them off. We are presently learning of how he used the Justice Department to protect cabinet members and assorted henchmen. I believe that is what created his desperation to stay in office, and now to get back into office at any cost. And he'd be right, the wolves are at his door and the vultures are making lazy circles. His business will be destroyed and all of his family and associates will be locked up or will roll over on him. Time is quickly running out for Donald.

[Hortensis]

28. The trap has to be part of it for sure, but when did awareness

of risk actually start? A lifelong criminal dodging the law must have realized that even just running and losing would focus far more intense attention on him than before. Too attractive to resist? Just him being him? His life's been a self-generated storm of legal and business disasters, but he's seemed to almost thrive on it, always up for more illegal activities and more trouble. Supposedly they didn't think America would actually elect him, not until the fall anyway. His own trap slamming shut, and the intensive investigations that followed, may well have created real desperation that lead to attempted coup.

OTOH, turns out he was interested in and admiring of how authoritarian strongmen get and use power years before that. When he was elected, he didn't seem to know what congress did and acted as if they were supposed to work for him. I assumed stunning buffoonish ignorance. Turns out that soon the Republican-controlled senate and house were serving him, a massive failure of our institutions, so that may already have been his plan, with questions of when he decided to try for it and who all were advising this loose cannon. Same for putting his agents into the DoJ, FBI, judiciary and other institutions to serve him.

Thank everything we got control of the house in 2018. The seditionist caucuses must wish they'd moved faster, but they haven't given up. Their plan to take over and create a RW authoritarian nation controlled by them didn't start with the vicious whackjob their voters foisted on them. And whatever reality turns out to be (and I believe you're right), the vicious whackjob has to still be scheming for desirable futures, one of which puts him and the rest of his traitorous crime family in control of our nation.

[PatSeg]

22. I think it is both as well

At first I thought Trump knew he'd lost, but was just playing his base with claims he'd won by a landslide. Then I read Michael Wolff's book "Landslide" and now I believe he is more delusional than calculating. Everyone around him was so scared of his temper that they only told him the good news. They repeated it over and over again until he accepted it as real. Trump is very vulnerable and easily manipulated as long as people are telling him what he wants to hear.

The great propagandist brainwashed himself.

[Demovictory9]

7. agreed. thanks for posting this. it's not reported enough. HE KNOWS he's lying. doesn't care

he only focuses on the outcome... doesn't care if he tears American to pieces.

[brewens]

8. His inoculating people, constantly saying he can't lose unless they steal it, is an indication that

he knew he might lose. So when he did lose, it couldn't have been a surprise. Plus his numbers before COVID should not have made his prospects look good. They were better than they should have been because of rigging by republicans.

I would say one thing. He may have known at first that he lost, but I think he's capable of having twisted things and listened to the wrong people, and now believes he was robbed. He sure seems to have totally fell for some of the Q stuff. I think he really believed the $3 million from the mayor of Moscow's wife thing he was accusing Joe of at the debate. I don't think that was acting.

Cognitive decline? There was the mini-strokes or whatever that had him at Walter Reed taking that cognitive test. He had COVID and may have the brain fog (if anyone could tell) screwing him up. He may now really think he was robbed and will be back.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. It was a surprise to Eric tRump; that night as midnight came closer he went on a tirade

He thought you were supposed to stop counting votes at midnight AND he thought tRump had won.

[Generic Other]

9. Billy Bush has suffered for condoning Donald's behavior that day

As he said, he has now reached a point where he is done kissing Trump's ass. I respect that statement self-serving or not. Let's see if the follow-through is consistent or whether he does another about-face as the GOP is prone to do.

[RockRaven]

10. the former guy is 100% aware of the fact that he is a liar, fraud, and bullshitter.

He is a loser and he knows it. Full stop. His only "winning" is when dumbasses and incompetents buy his nonsense. Sadly a too-often occurrence.

[AZ8theist]

11. Delusional and a fucking IMBECILE.

Been that way his entire life.

Just because his one skill is a master con artist, doesn't change the fact he speaks at a 4th grade level and has a similar level understanding of history, politics, foreign affairs and society in general.

Add the facts of raging narcissism, and probable on-set dementia coupled with pathological lying, gives a complete picture of a sociopathic criminal.

And a deluded IDIOT.

[wnylib]

12. Trump's idea of winning is not

gaining something by earning it, i.e. votes. To him, winning is getting the position, money, title, or whatever it is by any means he can. Losing, in his mindset, is failing to seize every opportunity to take, by any means, what he wants. So he is only a loser if he stops selling people on the idea that he actually won and the presidency is rightfully his. This is calculation, not delusion.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

16. Committed liars like tRump often have difficulty separating their lies (fantasies) from reality

To some extent, they have to believe the lie a little bit so they can act the lie convincingly.

In tRump's case, his mental capacities were never great and are diminished now. He sometimes does not know his lies are lies and sometimes he does.

[sanatanadharma]

20. He is in fact delusional, regardless of any other factors

Trump is exceedingly subjective in relating to the world. His rational-objective understanding of 'what is' and motivations for 'I want' are limited due to his narcissistic psychology.

He may have developed reliable techniques to dominate others to get his needs met, but has no objectively observable humanity.
Delusions directly destroy the human trait of compassion.

The more "me" in one's mind, the less "We" and that elevation of the one "I" above all other "I"s, such that there is no other value beyond "Mine", is in fact a delusion.

[lagomorph777]

27. I'm sick and tired of media claiming that Reptilian liars "believe" the Big Lie

... and the whole universe of other lies that constitute Trumpism. Of course they don't believe that shit. It's not possible to believe it. It's just a convenient fiction.

[JI7]

37. Yup, They did the same thing the whole time he was in office and before

Everyone he lies and does other fucked up things instead of reporting him lying and fucked up things they would talk themselves wondering just why he is doing this or saying this.

[JI7]

38. Another example of this is Trump getting the Vaccine in secret

[Kingofalldems]

39. He knows how to send his caddy down range to 'find' the ball he hit into the lake.

It's always in the middle of the fairway.