Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:34 AM
Peppertoo (376 posts)
Nate Silver - the freak out about the Israeli vaccine effectiveness is due to poor analysis.
[link:
Link to tweet |] Go to the internal links. The analysis was poorly done. Most likely, the vaccine has an 80 ish percentage effectiveness at preventing infection.
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26 replies, 1530 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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Peppertoo | Jul 2021 | OP |
Johnny2X2X | Jul 2021 | #1 | |
48656c6c6f20 | Jul 2021 | #2 | |
PortTack | Jul 2021 | #3 | |
Hortensis | Jul 2021 | #5 | |
brooklynite | Jul 2021 | #7 | |
Fiendish Thingy | Jul 2021 | #11 | |
Mariana | Jul 2021 | #18 | |
Bucky | Jul 2021 | #22 | |
uponit7771 | Jul 2021 | #12 | |
Peppertoo | Jul 2021 | #19 | |
Bucky | Jul 2021 | #20 | |
TheBlackAdder | Jul 2021 | #4 | |
Scrivener7 | Jul 2021 | #6 | |
totodeinhere | Jul 2021 | #14 | |
hlthe2b | Jul 2021 | #8 | |
Peppertoo | Jul 2021 | #23 | |
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin | Jul 2021 | #9 | |
muriel_volestrangler | Jul 2021 | #10 | |
uponit7771 | Jul 2021 | #13 | |
Peppertoo | Jul 2021 | #21 | |
muriel_volestrangler | Jul 2021 | #24 | |
Peppertoo | Jul 2021 | #26 | |
Doc Sportello | Jul 2021 | #15 | |
ProfessorGAC | Jul 2021 | #17 | |
BlueLucy | Jul 2021 | #16 | |
Scrivener7 | Jul 2021 | #25 |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:38 AM
Johnny2X2X (15,492 posts)
1. Yup
And this study even said as much in their release, they said they weren't ready for peer review and their data was incomplete.
Link to tweet ?s=20 |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:40 AM
48656c6c6f20 (7,638 posts)
2. So the sky isn't falling?
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:42 AM
PortTack (28,669 posts)
3. I no longer trust Nate silver or 538. they have been wrong the last 3 election cycles due to poor
Methodology, and refuse to admit it, or change their methods. I will wait to see what the medical experts that analyze these kinds of studies say
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Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:50 AM
Hortensis (55,131 posts)
5. Umhm, and due to what else? Is the enormously influential political polling industry
really the only one that doesn't have many institutions working to elect Republicans? Like CNN, MSNBC, AP, NYT, and most other MSM among media, but not the pollsters? Aside from those mentioned who set up their own polling functions to provide support for their analysis, of course.
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Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:55 AM
brooklynite (84,566 posts)
7. What do you mean "they have been wrong"?
They don't do polling; they evaluate available data.
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Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:39 PM
Fiendish Thingy (11,634 posts)
11. No they haven't- 538 is a poll aggregator, and does not have its own methodology/polling
538 analyzes other polls, and grades other polling houses’ methodology.
They were the most accurate predictor in 2016, giving Trump a 1 in 3 chance of winning, and predicting the razor thin margins in the rust belt. |
Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #11)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:05 PM
Mariana (14,384 posts)
18. Some people read "1 in 3 chance" and interpret it as "zero chance".
So they insist that 538 was wrong.
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Response to Mariana (Reply #18)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:10 PM
Bucky (52,170 posts)
22. Having worked in the polling industry for many years
I can tell you one in three means "unlikely but less than a fluke", which is the perfect description for the Trump presidency
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Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:41 PM
uponit7771 (88,372 posts)
12. +1, They're weighting of right wing approval rating polls is horrible
Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:05 PM
Peppertoo (376 posts)
19. 538 has performed very well
Response to PortTack (Reply #3)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:08 PM
Bucky (52,170 posts)
20. Sometimes 538 delivers news that I don't like to hear
Not sure that's the same as being "untrustworthy"
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Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:44 AM
TheBlackAdder (25,748 posts)
4. I saw there was a British Health report that just being vaccinated, Delta better controlled.
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You have to check out the additional findings that follow the pages I being at, such as the UK report Page 38-39 and more. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15631125 . |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 11:52 AM
Scrivener7 (46,530 posts)
6. That's good. But 80% effectiveness against a variant that is 225% more contagious
than the original variant
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/17/1017075240/delta-variant-is-spreading-fast-and-new-cases-are-rising-is-time-to-mask-up-agai means we still have a decent chance of getting the virus. Though I know I am much less likely to die or be hospitalized, we don't know how subject to debilitating long covid vaccinated people are. Still need to be very careful. |
Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #6)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:47 PM
totodeinhere (12,718 posts)
14. Long Covid is a problem but it's rare. Of course we have to keep studying it and trying to
determine the best therapies for it.
But I have always been careful even before this pandemic started. So I agree with being careful. But having said that, fully vaccinated people, even people with underlying conditions, are much better off if fully vaccinated. If we concentrate too much on the rare exceptions where the fully vaccinated get serious breakthrough infections we are inadvertently giving people just another excuse for not getting vaccinated. We are already hearing from the right "why get vaccinated when it doesn't work?" Of course in most cases it does indeed work. |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:12 PM
hlthe2b (95,585 posts)
8. The thread "unwrap" for Dvir Aran (Israeli data analyst)
His assessment is highly probable/credible.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1420059122725183491.html So why does it look like there is no difference until mid-July? @AArgoetti looked at the trends of cases in cities stratified by their vaccination rates.
We can see that cities on the lower quartile had low number of cases until recently, but since mid-July, most cases are coming from those cities. This is what we got wrong. This “wave” started from cities with high vaccination rate and couldn’t “find” unvaccined adults at risk. The denominator we need to use until mid-July is >95% vaccination rate and not the country’s average. So to summarize, the vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases and probably also symptomatic diseases, even for those vaccinated early. Just to correct one misconception from my thread - many of you understood that we think there is no waning immunity. This analysis does not reject the waning hypothesis, it just shows that the vaccines are still highly effective even with possible waning. |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:15 PM
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (95,200 posts)
9. Yet the right is jumping on the Israeli estimate story like flies on a turd.
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:26 PM
muriel_volestrangler (99,044 posts)
10. But that is about "severe cases". The earlier report was about symptomatic illness.
Here:
Pfizer and BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, but still provides strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization, according to a new report from the country's Health Ministry.
The efficacy figure, which is based on an unspecified number of people between June 20 and July 17, is down from an earlier estimate of 64% two weeks ago and conflicts with data out of the U.K. that found the shot was 88% effective against symptomatic disease caused by the variant. However, the two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data published Thursday. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215656268 I think Silver needs to find people who were actually "freaking out" about severe illness, and talk to them directly, rather than broadbrushing the world with "a lot of you" as if he knows something special. "Probably also" is a claim without the data to back it up. |
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #10)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:44 PM
uponit7771 (88,372 posts)
13. +1, ... the "...probably.." qualifier is the thing that sticks out in the root tweet. It's a guess
.... At what the efficacy of symptomatic is versus some heartline numbers that were presented by Israel first.
Where's the CDC has numbers on this with the Delta variant but they're only counting critical and lethal outcomes of infection versus just infection. CDC is basically saying even with Delta around 95% of people end up in the hospital or dead 19% of people have long haul symptoms from the original variant I still don't want to catch Delta |
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #10)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:08 PM
Peppertoo (376 posts)
21. There have been people freaking out about the Israeli data but here and elsewhere
Response to Peppertoo (Reply #21)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:24 PM
muriel_volestrangler (99,044 posts)
24. That doesn't make Silver correct, though. He's a professional statistician
and he didn't aim his sloppy claim at people on DU. His tweets are worse than he has shown the original Israeli report to have been.
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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #24)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 07:19 PM
Peppertoo (376 posts)
26. I think his tweets are valid
People all too eager to seek out outliers especially if they conform to their preconceived notions.
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Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:49 PM
Doc Sportello (6,789 posts)
15. That was pretty obvious when the report first came out
At least from a scientific point of view. But, caveats often don't make it out to the public. And people on here were freaking out about it and when I pointed out the questionable elements of this study the poster just doubled down.
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Response to Doc Sportello (Reply #15)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:56 PM
ProfessorGAC (56,849 posts)
17. I Know What You Mean
I think some folks really need to be out front of the worst case scenario, that they lose some of their analytical reasoning.
Without doing a deep dive into every data analysis used, I always found it concerning that the Israeli findings were so radically different than other populations under study. Just seemed peculiar that other results were so much more positive. |
Response to Peppertoo (Original post)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 12:52 PM
BlueLucy (1,423 posts)
16. I tried to get a 3rd Pfizer
but my pharmacy would not let me. I'm going to try my DR.
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Response to BlueLucy (Reply #16)
Wed Jul 28, 2021, 01:38 PM
Scrivener7 (46,530 posts)