Was there a conspiracy to overthrow the last election?

[kentuck]

Or did the failed coup just happen sort of spontaneously?

Were there well-laid plans to invade the Capitol from four different entrances?

Why were David Bossie and Corey Lewandowski embedded in the Pentagon?

Were the bombs at the DNC and RNC HQs meant to be a diversion?

Were the National Guard withheld by plan or by incompetence?

Were there plans to kidnap or do physical harm to VP Pence and Speaker Nancy Pelosi?

Was there a plot to stop the Electoral Vote?

Were there guns stored outside of the Capitol that could be easily and quickly attained?

How many people were aware of the plot?

Was it just a spontaneous plot hatched over the Social Media or was it a planned conspiracy against the United States of America?

[Sogo]

1. Yes.

[Sneederbunk]

2. In 2016 TFG cheated and won. In 2020 TFG cheated and lost.

[bamagal62]

5. This. A thousand times, this.

[Dave says]

33. That's why tfg cannot believe he lost

I feel tfg & fellow Repubs cheated and won in 2016. And yes, I feel tfg & the Repubs cheated and lost in 2020. At least at the top of the ticket. That's why tfg finds it so hard to believe he lost, all his sick ducks were in order to ensure him another squeaker win. I also suspect there was a lot of successful cheating down ballot like, for example, McConnell's Senate win.

No, I have no proof of these things, just -- cough, cough -- a feeling. The infamous 'red shift' persists in our elections since 2002. Counts that defy exit polls result in wins by Republicans. The wins, when combined, are against astronomical odds. Powerball wins. When Powerball wins happen, they almost always skew to Republicans.

Trump acts too much like Karl Rove in the 2012 election when Fox called the election for Obama. Rove flipped out on the air, even went to the count room with (unaware to him) cameras in tow. At that time there was in place (purportedly) a man-in-the-middle server capable of changing vote counts -- a little here, a little there -- that would have thrown the election to the Republican challenger (Romney). It didn't work. The rumor was that a hacker group (Anonymous) blocked the server, keeping Rove from realizing his objective. Not aware of the hack, Rove of course flipped out. Perhaps he thought, "How can this be possible?" given the cheats that were put in place.

And then, in 2020, tfg flipped out. Stranger things have (not) happened in American politics.

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. Yes to all but it wont matter. Not one of them will be brought to justice, those in the House

and Senate and former WH.

This is America, cons can do this stuff and get away with it because if held accountable the media and cons will say it is political.

It is not political, it is criminal and treason, but that wont matter.

[Unknown Beatle]

10. Let's hope you're wrong.

[Eliot Rosewater]

16. If I wasnt an atheist I would pray that I am wrong

[lagomorph777]

19. I'm with ya there. Sometimes I wish there was a Hell.

...so all the assholes who get away with murder would face some consequence.

[Dave says]

34. I absolutely agree!

[Hoyt]

4. Unless it was a very small group, we'll discover it if that happened.

No question trump’s Stop-the-Steal, lies about election, encouragement to “fight,” etc., incited the ignorant rubes to insurrection.

But, someone will squeal if trump or anyone else planned, coordinated, led it, conspired, etc., outside of a few people.

[ms liberty]

12. Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead - Benjamin Franklin n/t

[Bev54]

6. These are questions for the 1/6 committee to get answers for.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

7. For this thread

Link to tweet

[bluestateboomer]

8. In the words of little Tucker....

Just asking.

[Kaleva]

9. The fact they didn't have a clue on what to do after taking the Capitol suggest there wasn't

Or it was planned by the Underwear Gnomes.

Step 1: Travel to D.C. for the Jan. 6th protest

Step 2: Attack the Capitol

Step 3: ?

Step 4: Success!

I'm only aware of of one who tried tried to flee the country afterwards and his actions don't appear to be preplanned.

[kentuck]

13. It was probably closer to "success" than we realize?

What would it have taken to shut down the government?

What type of chaos would there have been if VP Pence or Speaker Pelosi had been kidnapped or murdered? We don't know if that was part of the plot?

The military was frozen in place. The right-wing militias were doing the dirty work.

[ScratchCat]

18. This

They had been convinced that if they "stopped the count of the electoral votes" or if Pence did this or that, Trump would somehow remain POTUS. They were just ignorant rubes for the most part. Most looked like they thought they were at a tailgate party. Some were clearly dangerous and deranged, but there was no "group" of people with a pre-plan to actually "take over" the country. If the National Guard and police would have had a greater presence, they wouldn't have made it onto the Capitol grounds let alone breached the building. John Boehner said it best as someone up-thread posted. There was no "plan", just a flailing Trump harming the country due to his lack of care for anyone but himself.

[LeftInTX]

30. A good chunk were like this, but Oath Keepers are not..

Oath Keepers want to take over and will if given the chance.

I'm sure there were other militias there who were well organized.

[lagomorph777]

20. Pure coincidence that the National Guard was shut down two days in advance,

pure coincidence that they printed insurrection T shirts,
pure coincidence that they had detailed maps of the Capitol,
pure coincidence that top Reptilian donors funded busloads of terrorists,
pure coincidence that emergency phones in the Capitol were ripped out in advance, ...?

Get real.

[ScratchCat]

22. No, but it doesn't reflect an actual "plan" either

Again, the idiots thought they were going to disrupt the vote count and keep Trump POTUS. Some GOPers obviously let some of the folks in the day before so they could "map" out the place.

But nothing points to an actual "plan" to take over the country. There weren't even enough of them; they didn't have enough weaponry; it was clear from the video footage that they had little idea what they were doing(some gut thought he find evidence of fraud in Pelosi's office drawers) once they got in.

[lagomorph777]

23. It may not have been a fully successful plan (still to be determined),

it may not have been well-executed, but it's demonstrably false that there was NO plan.

[kentuck]

24. It's not like everyone in the mob had to know about the "plan"...

Many were likely oblivious.

[lagomorph777]

26. Correct - like any large operation (e.g. D-Day)

Many know just their small piece. "Show up at this spot, bring your mace, catch this bus."

[ScratchCat]

31. So what was the actual plan

and why didn't they accomplish it?

Simply, there was no plan other than "disrupt the House of Representatives from counting the Electoral Votes".

Look, his aides gave Ivanka one last chance to talk him into going in front of a camera and telling the crowd to stop. If she hand't convinced him, Pence and Meadows were going to Baker Act him. Pence made the damn call for the Guard. There was no plan to take over the country. All of Trump's actions were "checked" by others who had no intention of letting America be destroyed by a life long con man. Dollars to donuts, even the idiot Reps like Boebert who let the people in the day before thought they were just going to disrupt the count. That's why they are so afraid now - they egged it on and should have known better and might be criminally liable.

[lagomorph777]

38. The details of the plan are not yet publicly known; that's the point of the investigation.

But, hey, keep defending the coup plotters if that is what floats your boat.

[Kaleva]

46. Wasn't the plan to overthrow the govt?

Which attacking the Capitol wouldn't accomplish as Trump's term was set to expire even if the electoral college vote was delayed.

[lagomorph777]

50. Every time I buy a lottery ticket, I plan to win.

Whether it was a realistic plan is somewhat open to debate, but they came very close to success.

It is unfathomable to me that anybody would try to claim there was no plan.

Very worrisome that it's not blatantly obvious, from mountains of evidence, that there was a plan. Is it actually possible to believe there was no plan?

If I was one of the coup plotters, I might be stupid enough to try to use that argument in court. But prosecutors would shoot it down in a second. The evidence of planning is overwhelming.

Even if (so far) they have not succeeded, there can be no realistic doubt that there was a plan.

[Kaleva]

55. What was your response that day?

If you believed they were very close to overthrowing the government, one would suspect you took notable actions. If you did what the vast majority of Americans did, watch the news and post on social media, you most likely didn't believe there was any chance of success and it was nothing more then a riot.

[LanternWaste]

54. See the entire board. Play the entire board...

Telling oneself "no" without evidence is as fallacious as telling oneself "yes" without the same.
Telling oneself "if I don't understand it, it must not exist" is also a fallacy... regardless of how you rationalize it to others.

I thought you'd know something that fundamental.

I guess not... bias affects all humans as you so illustrated.

Good luck!

[Kaleva]

56. One can tell how people actually feel about an event by how they respond to it.

Hardly anyone in the country took to the streets either in support of the rioters or to show opposition to them. This passive response suggests few really thought there was a serious attempt to overthrow the government that day.

The greater the perceived threat to ourselves, our values, our form of government, the more vigorous the response. Posting our displeasure on DU doesn't count as a vigorous response.

it's similar to people who claim to feel threatened by climate change and say that actions must be taken immediately but they go about their daily lives like everything is hunky-dory.

[kentuck]

42. That is the textbook definition of sedition.

Simply, there was no plan other than "disrupt the House of Representatives from counting the Electoral Votes".

It was more than just free speech. There were actions to go along with their words.

[lagomorph777]

47. Yes! But we can see there was also a lot more to it than that dismissive sentence.

Busses did not magically get loaded up with terrorists without a plan.
Terrorists did not show up in matching military gear and custom t shirts without a plan.
Congress people did not give terrorists capitol tours in advance without a plan.
Miller wasn't installed at DoD at the last minute, without a plan.
Barr wasn't replaced at DoJ at the last minute, without a plan.
The National Guard was not ordered to stand down, two days in advance, without a plan.

The idea that anybody would try to claim there was no plan is infuriating, and frankly makes me question their motives for making such a patently ridiculous claim. Who are they trying to protect?

[Kaleva]

44. If there was a plan, why didn't they hold on to the Capitol?

They left, mostly peacefully, and went home.

[lagomorph777]

45. Does every plan succeed?

Once Trump was coerced into giving his half-assed request to go home, they went home. They always planned to follow his orders, and they did so.

[Kaleva]

48. No plan made in a Fantasy World can possibly succeed.

No one yet to my knowledge who claims this was an effort to overthrow the government can explain how taking over the Capitol would accomplish that.

[lagomorph777]

51. It may have been a stupid plan (though frankly, I think it was very nearly successful)

If one or two more generals had gone along with it, we'd be in a very different situation right now.

Destroying one of the major branches of Government, while holding the other two, would pretty much have been the end of the story. They came within a hair's breadth of doing exactly that.

It's fantasy-world thinking to imagine otherwise.

[Kaleva]

52. the passive response by the majority of Americans to the Jan 6th riot suggests there was no plan

Or at least no plan the vast majority thought had any chance in hell of succeeding.

It's human nature for someone to take vigorous action in response to a threat deemed very serious and to do little or nothing when confronted with an event deemed non-threating.

The fact that no on here took to the streets to defend our nation against a coup attempt and the fact that no Trump supporting fanatic likewise took to the street to support the alleged coup attempt suggests that few, if any, actually thought the an 6th riot was anything more then a riot.

[kentuck]

53. 18 U.S. Code § 2101 - Riots

(a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent—
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph— [1]
Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

[lagomorph777]

57. That literally makes no sense at all.

What in hell does the reaction by other people have to do with whether the coup was planned? You're grasping at straws here.

[Kaleva]

58. You claimed the Trumpsters very nearly succeeded in overthrowing the govenement

Yet, as far as i know, you, me, and the vast majority of Americans did nothing in response.

As I said before, it's human nature to take vigorous action in response to an event or situation that is deemed to very important and to do little or nothing in response to an event that is deemed to be of little or no importance. Since we did nothing in response to the Jan 6th riot, it then must of been considered to be of little to no threat.

[Demsrule86]

11. I used to think Trump cheated in 16 but I don't think he did. I believe now he won narrowly due

to that ....(words not bad enough) Jill Stein. She and others have blood on their hands. In 20, there is no question he lost...and probably by more than the current margins as DeJoy made sure many of the ballots never arrived.

[malaise]

14. It was

a planned conspiracy against the United States of America?

Truth will out

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

15. Yes. The Liar and Cheat clearly began laying the groundwork for overthrow of the

the election early on, by telling his worshipers that voting by mail was corrupt and dangerous.

https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_33b225f3-5d02-4f2c-abca-41e694c90b4f

[Wounded Bear]

17. Would a wild bear shit in the woods? Does the Pope wear a funny hat?

[lagomorph777]

21. That's no funny hat!

It's a yarmulke.

[Wounded Bear]

27. The Pope is Jewish?

[haele]

25. I think it was more of a conspiracy to set up an environment where a coup could easily occur.

1. Spend two months lashing up the base, which includes some dangerous organized and trained militias that were salivating to realize their faux Patriot fantasies of Liberal blood running through the Capitol. Keep repeating the Election was stolen.
1.a - suggest to fellow traveller organizations that a protest showing would be a good thing, and maybe they could provide logistics for such a rally at a critical date in the election process.
1.b - use Social Media to encourage that base to come protest and "Go Wild". Claim it's a 1st Amendment issue to protest those evil cheating Liberals who stole the election.
2. Use acting SecDef to hobble the National Guard. Claim it's to protect protester's 1st Amendment rights.
3. Hobble the Capitol Police. "Convince" the USCP leadership in the House and Senate that there will be a "peaceful" protest.
4. Rally the crowd that shows up that morning, whip them into a frenzy, then tell them to go to the Capitol and make themselves heard.
5. When things "get out of hand", immediately yell "Antifa did it", enact the Insurrection Act, call out the Military, call off the electoral process at that point, and take over as his armed supporters start attacking State Houses and neighborhoods looking for Antifa traitors.

Other than #4, everything else can be plausibly excused as believing the Administration was reacting with either politics as usual ("Look at what Al Gore did in 2000, delaying the post-election period with his constant Florida recount!&quot or a muddled definition of the 1st Amendment based on the debacles of the BLM protest over-reactions over the summer.


I'm not defending, I'm just pointing out where Tr***Co can pursue a plausible deniability defense based on the points above. Frankly, even before it was official he lost, I and many others on this forum expected a coup attempt using some sort of insurrection action.

Haele

[Mister Ed]

59. That outline seems the most plausible to me. n/t

[LeftInTX]

28. Yes

It was a last ditch effort by TFG to stop the Electoral Vote.

However, he had alot of help from Oath Keepers and other groups. I believe Oath Keepers and other groups are involved in a conspiracy in a legal sense. Those Oath Keepers would overthrow the govt in a heart beat. So would the Bundy gang. These white nationalist/domestic terrorist groups are always out there and plotting. They have been plotting ever since Ruby Ridge...

[spanone]

29. Spontaneous???? Bwahahahahahaaa

[ScratchCat]

32. Three guys had shirts printed and drove to D.C.

to attend a rally. That doesn't constitute an organized plan to take over the country. They are freaking smiling and laughing.

Have you all ever seen what a real coup looks like?

Nobody is smiling and laughing, taking selfies, playing musical instruments and giving interviews to the media.

[spanone]

35. So you're the answer police?

[TxGuitar]

36. Well, while I agree it was not spontaneous

It's pretty simple to print out shirts at home with the right equipment. Anyone with a Crickut and an iron could whip out those 3 shirts in about an hour. Still, if you take the time to make them, you obviously have a plan.

[H2O Man]

37. Recommended.

Both. A mirrored Mao-style attack.

There was an organized core group, that had been coordinating with individuals in DC, and who were fully aware that crowd psychology would lead the large school of fish to swim among them inside the Capitol.

[FelineOverlord]

39. Definitely

From what I’ve read, Russia and others were working very hard to fix the election.

Ironically, Trump’s severely botched response to the COVID pandemic resulting in many people voting by ballot box or by mail, which even Russia couldn’t hack.

Which is why Trump sent DeJoy to sabotage the Post Office.

[lees1975]

40. Trump's whining about "massive fraud" was going on long before the first polls showed him losing

Of course this was a well-planned conspiracy. It was their intention all along, once they got Trump into office, to fight every Constitutional provision, separation of powers, the whole thing. They put people in places for the purpose of undoing as much as possible so the knot would sort of just fall apart after the election.

The Joint Chiefs were aware enough, and suspicious enough to have a plan in place to intervene if things started getting off the rails.

What is unfortunate is that the Constitution itself does not make it possible to put enough power in place to arrest, try and imprison those involved. We can't just sit back, be apathetic and let this happen. We need to make sure politicians in charge do as much as they can, and people need to get involved. It's time to start taking territory and being activist.

[Beringia]

41. I wonder about the rioters that have already been sentenced

Didn't they have to tell what instructions they were given and by whom.

One of the officers that testified said they were looking out for gun prints under clothes at the rally and that they knew there were people with guns and that is why the police didn't order the shoot order, because they were outnumbered 50 to 1 and if the police started using guns, then the rioters would take this as a signal to use their guns in return.

[kentuck]

43. It seems to me that this was the last desperate attempt...

...to prevent Joe Biden from becoming the official President of the United States. Trump was desperate and he would do anything conceivable to stay in power. The speeches that were made that morning were very inciteful, beginning with Mo Brooks, and including Don Jr and Rudy's. They were doing everything within their power to stop the Electoral Vote certification. They needed more time to tie it up in the courts, like they are doing at this very moment.

Their intent was to stop the proceeding. Whatever it took. "If they did not fight like hell, they would lose their country" was the message given to the insurrectionists. If they had to, they had to be willing to die for Donald Trump.

In fact, they did stop the proceeding for a short time. We do not know what the rest of the plan was supposed to be? (Perhaps kidnapping or murder? We don't know.)

I have no doubt but that there was a conspiracy to stop a legal Congressional proceeding. That is defined as sedition.

[Brother Mythos]

49. Yes, there was a conspiracy to overthrow the 2020 Presidential Election. Fortunately, ...

it was a desperate, poorly planned, poorly executed conspiracy, and the coup attempt failed.

Now, as citizens of a constitutional republic, we must take the steps necessary to prevent something like this from even happening again.