Q: re Afghanistan....Simple question

[Rustyeye77]

IF YOU READ THIS PLEASE RESPOND. Thank you

Can you honestly look away and ignore the murder of kids, the endless atrocities and the unspeakable horror of young girls by the Taliban?

iIf you can you are better than me.I cant

[RussBLib]

1. Multiply this by many other countries

And the atrocities pile up. Too numerous to list.

Looking away is almost a survival skill.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. No, I can't. Nor can I look away from other horrors around the world. But...

the worst thing is so little I can do about it.

[Rustyeye77]

3. unbelieveable...150 views and only 2 people responding

I'm disappointed......

i thought dems/progressives stand up for people... and principles.

i know we were there 20 years.

BUT I'LL BE DAMNED IF WE CANT STAND UP FOR WOMENS RIGHTS AND SAFETY.

AND STAND UP AGAINST ATROCITIES . STAND UP AGAINST FASCISM

GO AHEAD...Lecture me about how we have no business there.

[albacore]

4. You didn't ask a simple question...

The Afghanistan mess is very complicated. More than just Taliban atrocities.

I can't answer your question...better minds than mine have tried and failed.

But.

I have a question for you - and those better minds.

What do you think we should do? Invasion with best-equipped and trained military in the world didn't work. Trillion of dollars pumped into their government didn't work. Diplomacy didn't work.

What concrete proposals do you have to remedy - or at least lessen - the disaster to come in Afghanistan?

[Rustyeye77]

6. Again...same question.

i would hope the world would react to this.

but they are not going to apparently.

if push comes shove, and we dont want a terror state and we believe in womens rights, we might have to go back in.

it sucks but there may not be a choice.

[Captain Stern]

44. You said: "We might have to go back in"

Thank you for your service.

I sincerely hope you don't have to return to fight again in Afghanistan.

[Treefrog]

55. Well played.

[albacore]

52. Nothing personal here...

But why do Americans think they can right every wrong in the world? Why is it that Americans think they can bend every population to our will? No matter how wrong-headed, barbaric, and downright dangerous a country may be, we can't simply force them to be anything different.
To me, it's the height of hubris to believe we can change every recalcitrant country in the world. Hubris born of an imperialist past that no longer exists.
The Century of American hegemony is over. Especially after tiny countries with virtually no organized military have shown, time and again, that the US really is a "paper tiger".

You said: "...we might have to go back in." We went in. 20 years ago. With the best trained and equipped military in the world, the best tacticians, limitless supplies, the most high-tech weapons, and total control of the air.
All this... against 30,000 - 80,000 Taliban at any one point.

The US had 775,000 troops deployed over that time, and the US spent at least $1 Trillion there. 2,312 Americans died in Afghanistan ....and 20,066 were wounded.
At what point do we say that further loss of blood and treasure is pointless?

It is time - and past time - to end this loser of a war.

[SCantiGOP]

5. There are dozens of countries

That are just as bad or worse. Do you propose American troops invade and occupy every one?

[Rustyeye77]

8. C'mon.. same repetitive question

of course not

but this is different. we have an interest on multiple levels.

So can i assume you can look away? please answer

[SCantiGOP]

11. Yes, if you demand a yes or no answer

And I’m out of your spurious discussion.

[Rustyeye77]

13. OK

[AndyS]

7. It is a sad thing. If it doesn't offend your humanity you are lacking.

BUT

The Revolutionary war lasted 8 years.
The civil war lasted 4 years.
WWI lasted 1 1/2 years.
WWII lasted 4 years.
Vietnam lasted 19 years. We lost that one.
Afghanistan so far is 20 years and we have made no progress to victory for us or the people of Afghanistan.

In 1969 I received 8 weeks basic training that included rifle training and hand to hand combat. With that minimal training I was expected to go to war if asked and I would have if asked.

We have spent 20 years training the Afghan military. There are officers in that corps that are eligible for retirement. We have provided them with state of the art weaponry, built an Air Force, taught weapons and tactics and provided them with Command and Control.

After all that the soldiers surrendered their weapons to the Taliban. We stood up a force of 180,000 US trained and equipped soldiers that can't or WON'T defend the country against a Taliban force of 10,000.

I'm sorry. I feel sympathy for the women and children in that dust blown rock farm of a country. But I ask you, how much more?

[Rustyeye77]

10. Thank you...OK....So i assume you can look away .

Youre alot better than me.

[AndyS]

15. Seeing it and being able to do anything about are two different things.

I ask again, what more can be done? How much longer do we train and equip an army that surrenders to an inferior force?

We can give them training, we can give them arms but we can't give them heart.

Tell me how to do that I'm all in.

[Mosby]

30. Did we lose the Vietnam war?

How's North Vietnam doing?

How about the Soviet Union?

Who won the cold war?

[AndyS]

32. Yes.

North and South Vietnam are now one which is what the country wanted all along.

[Mosby]

35. Well the Communists wanted it all.

I doubt that's what the average Vietnamese person wants.

But your mainly correct, though I think we "won" the broader cold war.

[AndyS]

39. The cold war went in our favor but

Vietnam handed our ass to us. Just like they did to the French who warned us not to go in there.

After Korea, Vietnam and now Afghanistan we should either get used to losing or learn something, don'cha think?

[Blue_true]

46. Unless we are willing to be absolutely vicious, we are not

going to win a modern war, no one is.

Look at Korea and Vietnam. Once television showed what was happening and the caskets started coming home, the US public wanted out of those wars.

WWII was the last war where enemy land could be decimated (carpet bombing) and we had a truly evil adversary. Try that today and there would be massive protests in the streets. Today we are more likely to fight religious fanatics like the taliban or isis, there is no true evil adversary, just fanatics whose behaviors repulse our sensibilities.

[samsingh]

9. i cant turn away

[Caliman73]

12. That is not a simple question.

Can you look away as 13 Million children in the United States go hungry each day? Can you look away as fossil fuel companies continue to damage our ecosystem, with our assistance?

What is happening in Afghanistan is horrible, has been horrible, and will continue to be horrible.

Unless we commit genocide against the Taliban and wipe out every single one, it will continue. Once we leave, they will come back. Unless you are suggesting that US and other nations permanently keep soldiers stationed in Afghanistan.

[Rustyeye77]

14. OK....I understand.

[Ohio Joe]

16. I'm not sure what you are looking for...

There are a good number of countries that are run by people who oppress, torture and murder groups within their borders. These groups vary but almost (? are there any that don't? I can't think of any) always include women. We in fact still have a problem right here in America. It is coming across very much to me that you want to blame Democrats for not having fixed it.


is it something I think should be fixed? Yes, yes I do.

Do I have ideas on how to fix it? No, no I don't. I'm pretty sure it will not be fixed at the barrel of a gun though... Ideologies are not changed that way. I think at the very least it would require a large number of countries joining together to educate and protect in a very focused way for a very long time. We do not have that coalition and I'm not even sure such a thing could be achieved today... We have simply not evolved that far yet as a species.

So... Bottom line... Yes, it bothers greatly but I do not have the solution so I am living my life here in America fighting against our own version of the taliban, the magats. I hope we can overcome them and begin working with other like minded countries to stamp out these fucked up monsters one day. I simply do not see it as a problem with an easy or quick solution... Certainly not one that will be fixed in my generation... Or the next. I certainly don't see any benefit to blaming American Democrats for not getting it fixed in your time frame.

If you have a solution though, I'm willing to hear it.

[Rustyeye77]

19. Thank you for your post.

I wish i had all the answers.

I just know that I believe in certain things and the horror thats going on in Afghanistan is abhorrent to me.

[lark]

17. I respectfully disagree.

There are children dying everywhere, the US can't stop it, we are only one country. We've already given so many young men/women to this country to no effect, how many more must die before it's enough? It sucks and it's horrible but sadly we can't fix the entire world.

Now people that worked for us, I think we should be airlifting them out. I don't think we've done great with this.

[cbabe]

18. Vietnam all over again.

[Demsrule86]

20. I find it awful, heartbreaking but see nothing that I can do about it.

[Rustyeye77]

21. You can't do anything. I can't do anything.

The WORLD can do something but won’t .

And I hope the Afghan army can.

I hope somehow the young women there can get out.

[Demsrule86]

29. I do too.

[Red Mountain]

22. Nothing short of invading Pakistan

Would 'win' Afghanistan.

After both were pacified it might take another 50 years to remake their cultures.

[edhopper]

23. The problem is apparent

the solution is not.
Unless you think we should stay there indefinitely, or escalate to a full on war that tries to eliminate the Taliban. Good luck with that one.

[Rustyeye77]

24. I really hope the Afghan army can deal with this.

If they cant and the world does nothing , then the US has a vested interest in Afganistan NOT being a destabilizing terror state.

A lot of people couldn't tolerate young women being sex slaves again.... me included.


I hope for light at the end of this terrible tunnel

I also hope Biden can find a multinational force.

[edhopper]

34. The world will look away.

It is a horrible result, but the Afghan Army seems incapable of defending the country, and the International community will not come to the rescue.

There a places just as bad in many Muslim majority countries. Areas of Pakistan can be just as bad for women and children. And Saudi Arabia is awful to women.

There are no easy answers.

[Rustyeye77]

42. yes there are places that are bad.

I wrote this on another thread


The fact is under the US:

1. They had a democracy with significant stability--not perfect but good
2. they voted
3. terrorism was much less
4. Women served in govt and in business
5. Young girls actually went to school and loved it
6. Young girls weren't treated as sex slaves
7. young boys were going to school instead of madrassas

Not a bad nation building.

[edhopper]

54. Agreed

But perhaps sustainable. If 20 years of occupation can't get them to a place where they don't have a large part of the country still supporting the Talaban, it does not bode well.
And of course our friend Pakistan is helping the Talaban.

[UnderThisLaw]

25. I can't look away

but I’m better than you regardless

[LanternWaste]

26. Do you consistently apply this sentiment worldwide?

If so, why cherry pick only those which fit your narrative of the past week while wholly ignoring all other atrocities and horrors worldwide? Do they not validate your singular political narrative?

[Calculating]

27. What do we do about it?

We have the children of the original soldiers still over there, it's been 20 years and the country is still broken. Why is this America's eternal burden? Let China have a crack at Afghanistan just like the UK, Russia, and USA tried.

[11 Bravo]

31. I can't look away, but I'm at a loss as to what should be done about it.

A lot of good men and women have either not come back at all, or have come home scarred and broken from that conflict.

So in the end, at what point should the Afghanis themselves have to take responsibility for the safety of their children, particularly the young girls and women who are at greatest risk from the Taliban?
I honestly don't have the answer.

[Hekate]

33. NOT a simple question. Do you envision the US being there forever? Really forever...

Afghanistan is called the Graveyard of Empires for good reason. You can go back to 500 BC if you want. They are geographically rugged, socially complicated, and based on tribes. Tribes. Not states, cities, or counties. Tribes and lineages. Not a cohesive elected government. There is not a democratic bone in that structure.

Afghanistan will not change. You are asking them to be something they are not. No, you are telling them to be something they are not.

And you are telling us that we are responsible for making them.

I am very sorry for the women and girls. Really I am. But we can’t do anything more than we have done. For 20 damn years.

I believe we have a sworn obligation to all the translators and such who worked for us for 20 years, and if we walk away from them and their families it will mean our word as a nation is worthless. So fire up those airplanes and get them out of there asap.

This was, in a sense, foretold.

[Rustyeye77]

38. Not forever.

Maybe buy time to get a multinational force.


Do we really want a terrorist state there ? The cure for that will be infinitely worse than if we stayed.

Does it offend sensibilities seeing women being treated like sex slaves? sure does

Can we accept the atrocities that will only get worse ? I cant.


We have some , I repeat some , responsibility.
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The World Told Afghan Women It Had Their Backs — It Doesn’t
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-08-09/the-u-s-has-given-up-defending-the-women-and-children-of-afghanistan
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I know I'm alone in my opinion. If it looks like its falling apart, and no multinational force, we have some responsibility .

The fact is under the US:

1. They had a democracy with significant stability--not perfect but good
2. they voted
3. terrorism was much less
4. Women served in govt and in business
5. Young girls actually went to school and loved it
6. Young girls werent treated as sex slaves
7. young boys were going to school instead of madrassas

Kiss all that goodbye if the sociopathic taliban takes over...again

[Hekate]

47. We HAD a multinational force. Remember? When the US was attacked on 9/11, NATO was invoked

… for the first time in its history. For us. They came together on our behalf.

It’s been 20 flipping years. Are we the Roman Empire? Are we the Policemen of the World?

Read what I said about their tribes. When we talk about “tribalism” in the US, it’s a kind of metaphor. It’s not a metaphor in Afghanistan.

[Rustyeye77]

51. I hear you.

So screw em if the country goes down .
Tough luck on the young girls if they are raped as sex slaves.
It’s not our business if it become a terrorist state
Fuck em if they can’t go to school.
Burkas are not anyone concern
Hey, atrocities occur everyday.
And democracy is overrated .

It’s none of our business.
We owe them nothing.

Bye Afghanistan… who the fuck needs them.





Got it.

[Hekate]

53. No one is telling you that, and you know it

But you are determined on having a simple answer, and you’re determined that we should all feel lousy if we don’t agree with you.

Bye

[Mosby]

36. I think the situation is tragic. Nt

[Hekate]

37. Do you remember who started this war? Do you remember he promised we were not ...

… going to be “nation building”? Just get in and out? Hm?

That was BushCheney, GOP, not Joe Biden. It was 20 damn years ago. And we got sucked into the delusion of nation-building.

That country is not so much “broken” as it simply never was what we think of as a nation. It is a collection of tribes. Learn to do what the Mughals did and learn to negotiate with tribal leaders — that’s probably what Pakistan intends to do. I don’t know about China’s methods.

Just accept that we can’t force them to change no matter how long we stay.

[Rustyeye77]

40. I remember it all.

As far as nation building we didnt do a bad job.

[Hekate]

49. No, actually it was a well-intentioned failure, or this would not be happening. A retired general...

Last edited Wed Aug 11, 2021, 02:39 AM - Edit history (1)

… just remarked that the Afghan military forces are currently “liquifying.” Our country invested a trillion dollars over there. A trillion dollars.

We need to recognize our own limitations.

[haele]

41. I can't ignore the symptom of the problem that is Western Asia...

But I can tell you what the cause is:
Colonialism and Tribalism.
The Brits and other colonial empires drew up "the map" of the Middle East and Western Asia in a way that benefit them and their venture capital, not the peoples -the innumerable tribes and nomadic family groups - who actually lived in the region under various compacts and truces depending on competition for regional resources.
Tribes and family groups also had different "cultural sensibilities" depending on how authoritative the leadership was. Some tribes treated women as equals or near-equals- in terms of tribal constituency and authority; some treated their women as chattel. Some tribes were fearfully religious with demonstrative, judgemental gods that needed to be obeyed and protected; some were liberally religious, with god or gods that were more representative of an ideal or goal than a proscriptive act.

So, to save Afghanistan -and Pakistan - as well as some of the other Northern 'stans which are/were home to many of the former mujahideen tribes that became the Taliban, what should we do?
Their borders, their cities - and the illusion of a central government that controls natural resources within that arbitrary border are what is currently behind the desire for the Taliban to take power in those areas. So that their tribes can hold power over the other tribes and any foreigners that are in "their historic lands". So a few selfish old men and jealous younger men can pretend they're Saudi prices like Bin Laden did.
And the Chinese have already been enabling these guys to think of themselves as the rightful rulers, just to get uncontrolled access to mineral resources without oversight from any sort of responsible governing body in the region. A warlord doesn't care about paying for infrastructure or social services - or stable cities, for that matter; a warlord just wants bling and lots of foolish young men willing to do his bidding.

What do we do?
Well, quickest way to fix the problem is to identify and neutralize the Warlords, all their syncophants and minions.
Pretty much every male over the age of 7. Destroy the Taliban madrasses. Take the Taliban women and remaining children, and deprogram them. Any that can't be deprogrammed, neutralize them, also.
Sounds harsh?
That is pretty much the only way "we fix" the problem short term. Of course, the people in that region have long memories, and the West will just become greater villains than they are now to those tribes.
The only other option is to let all the horrors play out and stand by for refugees and localized aid. The long, bloody "they fix" that historically is the one that works in that region.

Haele

[Hekate]

50. Yep. After WW I the signatories of the Treaty of Versailles took T-squares, compasses, ...

…and straight-edges to the maps of Muslim territories. With a blithe disregard for settled tribal territories, not to mention nomadic tribes, they drew the maps we have today, ensuring a century and more of strife.

I think the OP is struggling with these realities.

[Captain Stern]

43. I see it, and I don't look away.

What should we do?

Afghanistan isn't the only place in the world where really horrible stuff happens. Why...there's horrible stuff happening right in our own country.

As bad as stuff is for most of the people in Afghanistan....I'm not going there. I don't think there is a whole lot I can do over there to make a difference. And, if I'm not willing to go there, and risk my life, then I'm sure not going to ask other people to.

Are you headed that way to do something about it? If so, I admire you.

[Blue_true]

45. Grotesque horrors happen around the world every day and we hear nothing about them.

As much as I want to, I can’t save the world.

Modern war is no longer an affair where our air forces can carpet bomb a target, innocent civilians on their own. Our troops today have to often look for enemy fighters in often hostile places, that means a lot of troops will die or be maimed for life if they are lucky enough to not get killed.

The question that I have for you is. Are you willing to see an endless line of American soldier caskets being returned home, or see men and women that have been severely maimed in Afghanistan?

[Devil Child]

48. Yes n/t

[panader0]

56. What are you going to do about it Rusty? You personally? Write a letter?

If you can give me a realistic way to stop the Taliban I'll be very impressed.
Like several others on this post have observed, there's bad shit happening all over the globe
every day.
All you are really doing here is accusing good DUers of being hard hearted, which is not true.
It's really quite obnoxious.