Afghanistan fell because the MEN of Afghanistan prefer the Taliban.

Good grief. Aren’t there enough guns in the world? Enough.

They were like 4 million people in Kabul. How long are they going to put up with this after having a cosmopolitan city for 20 years

Gun lovers always use excuses. The question you asked could be used in a million scenario excuses and actually have been.

You should. It assists in actual dialog.

going to "get the heck out of there?"

When you face being severely beaten, raped or killed for simply walking outside the house without a man, it's kind of hard to go get yourself a gun or plat a trek across the country with your children.

This is no "gun lover" argument.

or do your think men would hesitate to use guns to protect themselves from slavery?

After all, they would have more to fight for on a personal level…
Seems like so many of the male soldiers were not willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.

As do a few of ours.

Proficiency with a weapon is a great equalizer.

The kurds would have helped us with it, those women know..

Would have been a good start as well.

There are lessons here that require some careful examination.

I hope you're not implying that men on DU think that way.

Not trying to cause trouble, but sometimes somebody gets up on the wrong side of the bed and let's fly with an over-broad generalization.

I should have known that wasn't your intent.

Even in conservative circles, women have FAR more freedom here than in Afghanistan, please

…of tribes, each with their own leader.

Maybe because no matter what kind of structure the US put in place, it was riddled top to bottom with what we call corruption and what I think they think of as something that has no meaning for them, so every man for himself so long as he takes care of his own family and tribe.

Europe and America have a democratic tradition that is firmly established, and the roots of that tradition go back as far as the Magna Carta.

The tribes of Afghanistan do not have that, and trying to impose it on them failed from Day One.

Due to corrupt leadership taking the money meant for the soldiers. Your points are spot on. We tried to force a Westernized view on a completely different type of mindset. It made as much sense to the Afghans as it would be for Afghanistan to try and enforce their tribal type of government on our democratic form of government. To expect that deeply entrenched philosophy/culture to change in 20 years—if ever—was a fool’s errand from the get go.

with our own versions of tribalism and we’ve had a heck of a lot more time than 20 yrs. This outcome was always inevitable.

One of those 'we may not LIKE the Taliban, but at least they're OUR Taliban i.e. not controlled by foreigners' type of deals ... the latter of which one might logically assume was the prevailing opinion of many there WRT to the government that the USA and allies had basically installed there.

Could also just be straight cowardice in many cases ... they weren't SURE their 'side' could 'win' in a prolonged war for control, but they WERE sure that if they did lose? The Taliban would torture and kill them, and their families.

I think there's a few explanations here is all I'm saying

have. Apparently we couldn't win social equality for them. The Taliban is a religious cult not unlike some we have in this country. We have our own growing far right religious groups to deal with before they gain too much power. Already they have taken rights from women and we just sit back and watch, glad that it hasn't happened in our state...yet. As old Barney used to say, "We need to nip it, nip it in the bud."

If the people of Afghanistan wants to live in the dark ages who are we to stop them. Perhaps one day they will get sick and tired of being sick and tired, poor and hungry and they will remember the brief taste of a higher level of civilization that they once saw. Or not.

It is not wrong that we are getting out, it was wrong that we got in and stayed in as long as we did. Biden is taking us in the right direction.

The Next time the Saudi's attack us, we should go after them instead of some poor proxy. Modern warfare could make a lasting impression on Saudi society.

Indeed we do.

I agree with the entirety of your post. There is no wrong way to stop doing what we never should have started doing in the first place.

those insurrectionists and those on the inside need to be held responsible. They are our far right terrorists.

and please, however much we may want to see a "Taliban" in our country's conservatives, they, like Afghanistan, are so far from anything in the West as to make the comparison laughable.

Look at the photos and video of the Taliban taking over the palace/government offices in Afghanistan. Look familiar? Looks like Trump's racist, hateful supporters at the capitol. They are similar because the terrorists in both instances are mostly male chauvinists with low functioning intellect and emotional capabilities. They take pleasure in violence and hatred. Hurting women and children mean nothing to them. They have no use for anyone or anything that doesn't support their demented dreams of domination.

The losers at the capitol smeared human manure on the floors. They looted. They destroyed historical symbols of our country. The Taliban will take over and fail completely. They will be unable to create a functioning government. Afghanistan will remain a backward third world cesspool. It is the same destination for Trump's cult. Where certain kinds of men will hold all the power, employing violent oppression as the means to stay in control.

Both groups are dogs who chased and caught the car and now have no idea what to do.

But they will NEVER quell the hearts and minds of the good people. Woe is them when the masses strike back and blow the bastards into oblivion with overwhelming numbers employing all the guerrilla techniques they can muster.

It will suck to be Trump cultists and Taliban terrorists.

the similarities are striking.

You cannot help the country if they don't want to help themselves. Even the Afghani President left.

who would do the same thing.

And the white wing “incels” may have found a good woman. A powerful, tough as hell, woman not willing to take any shit, and kick their asses into civility.

This was not on Biden. This was under a Republican President so those who oppose the pull out can screw off. The Russians were there for 20 yrs + and they were fighting a lost cause and they left.

Maybe the males (via culture, everything else) there are a loss cause. But, it also implies that nothing we could have done (aside from investing in the women) would have made a difference.

Expanding their influence and rubbing out those who disagree with them. And recruiting lots of mobile infantry.

The Taliban hearts & minds program is carried out at the muzzle of a gun and it's remarkably effective.

I don't recall seeing that.

You see him come up while she’s filming and shove the camera into her face. I worked for years as a newspaper photographer, and believe me this stuff happens. The hatred against journalists was whipped up. So of course they will beat up on the woman if there is one around

Are looking at what's going on in Afghanistan for tactical tips on their own dreamed-of Civil War.

May i quote you?

They'll TAKE that, all day long.

We just never understood the culture.

never confuse lack of organization for support.

But the same could be said for most of our ancestors. We're better people now, but Afghanistan at least suggests that we didn't get that way through wars. If all it took was war to improve and evolve a population, they should be on the cutting edge. Quite the opposite, it seems.

And there also doesn't seem to be a way to cheat the game. I hate to think of all the suffering involved along the way, but perhaps they will eventually get there, if that is allowed. I still remember the early 90's when Afghanistan's internet site identified it as "the friendly country", a place where strangers were welcomed with smiles and great hospitality. That was 30 years of war and a generation and a half ago.

the culture is decidedly masculine and toxic.

It will take more than one generation to fix that.

Absolutely nothing will ever change there. This was the one chance and slim as it was, the only chance for the women.

Otherwise, it goes back to feuding warlords, and no one wants that.

The 20 year old firebrands that were the Taliban 20 years ago are now 40. We can only hope they've learned a few positive lessons along the way They're still full of toxic Wahabbi Islam from Saudi Arabia. Maybe it has been tempered by some common sense.

Don't think of this in "handmaid's Tale" terms, the bulk of the country wasn't any better than that at the best of times. Only the cities had liberalized, at all.

that the Taliban have said women/girls can continue to work and attend school as long as they wear the hijab.

Lindsey Graham has a better track record for honesty. Hell. DONALD TRUMP . . . . well that one's kind of close actually.

They chose to fight back.