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Why are we NOT vaxxing kids now? We know the vaccine is perfectly safe (Original Post) fescuerescue Aug 2021 OP
We don't know it is perfectly safe for kids. Scrivener7 Aug 2021 #1
I disagree. But taking you at your word fescuerescue Aug 2021 #3
My understanding is that they are in the process of doing that Scrivener7 Aug 2021 #7
That's why I hear as well fescuerescue Aug 2021 #8
I don't think anyone took a vacation. Scrivener7 Aug 2021 #16
No one took a vacation. Ms. Toad Aug 2021 #18
YOU DON'T EXPERIMENT ON CHILDREN Blue_Adept Aug 2021 #36
They are not mini adults, so handle things differently GPV Aug 2021 #2
We know it's safe for adults, and kids over 12 TDale313 Aug 2021 #4
So why didn't they test it on kids at the same time as adults? fescuerescue Aug 2021 #6
It is unethical to test a drug not known to be safe on adults, Ms. Toad Aug 2021 #19
Good lord, that's something the Nazis did obamanut2012 Aug 2021 #25
I think they haven't finalized determining the dosage. madaboutharry Aug 2021 #5
Clinical trials luv2fly Aug 2021 #9
Right. So why didn't the start at the same time as the other trials? fescuerescue Aug 2021 #10
I seem to recall the powers that be felt kids weren't at risk luv2fly Aug 2021 #11
That's not science. N/T lapucelle Aug 2021 #12
Not science at all, medically unethical, and legally irresponsible. N/t Ms. Toad Aug 2021 #20
If only you'd been working at Pfizer or Moderna, the pandemic would be over by now... SidDithers Aug 2021 #21
Well we have the largest collection of virus experts right here. fescuerescue Aug 2021 #23
Probably evaluating minimum safest, effective dosage BadgerKid Aug 2021 #13
It's because mRNA vaccines are associated with rare side effect of myocarditis LisaL Aug 2021 #14
I support the safety first concept... FarPoint Aug 2021 #15
Maybe because, if some kids started to have bad reactions then bluestarone Aug 2021 #17
Our pediatrician told us as soon as Pfiser was officially approved, she could prescribe it for 2-12 haele Aug 2021 #22
There is actually a slightly larger issue than parental consent. Ms. Toad Aug 2021 #24
Please take her fear seriously. hamsterjill Aug 2021 #35
Because we aren't Nazis obamanut2012 Aug 2021 #26
So taking the vaccine makes one a Nazi? fescuerescue Aug 2021 #27
Testing a vaccine not proven to be safe on adults, on children, is something the Nazi's would do. Ms. Toad Aug 2021 #33
The point is that they are dragging their feet on getting this proof fescuerescue Aug 2021 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author Iggo Aug 2021 #28
On second thought, I'm bailing on this shit show. Iggo Aug 2021 #29
I had an entire response about how xmas74 Aug 2021 #30
Yep, he's been told a bunch of times. Doesn't need me to tell him again. Iggo Aug 2021 #32
Dosage is an issue iemanja Aug 2021 #31

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
3. I disagree. But taking you at your word
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 08:57 AM
Aug 2021


We know for absolutely certainty that it's safe for adults.

We went through all the right processes to ensure that it's safe for adults right?

So why the HELL didn't we do that for kids too?

Scrivener7

(50,901 posts)
7. My understanding is that they are in the process of doing that
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:00 AM
Aug 2021

and that one of them, I forget which, is likely to be cleared for kids in a matter of weeks.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
8. That's why I hear as well
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:01 AM
Aug 2021

But they shouldn't have a waited so long to get started.

Why on Earth couldn't they start both processes at the same time?

Lots of kids have died because they decided to take a vacation once the Adult vaccine reached full approval.

Ms. Toad

(33,992 posts)
18. No one took a vacation.
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 10:04 AM
Aug 2021

Last edited Sun Aug 22, 2021, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

New drugs are never tested on children. The medicine my daughter started taking in1995, as a child, is still not approved for use by children. Women are often excluded, as well because of the risk of pregnancy. Once a drug has received full FDA approval for adult use, based on the group it tested, even if the group excluded women, and was short on racial minorities, doctors start using it "off-label" for children, and, in essence, It is field tested, informally, on women, children, and racial minorities. We learn of the problems slowly, as data emerges in those populations.

The vaccine needs to be specifically tested for children, because we plan to give it to all children, making the risk significantly higher.

And, as a matter of fact, we don't know that it is safe for adults. We know only that it is safe short term for adults. We have no way of knowing that it is safe long term, and we don't have time to wait to find out. Routine screening x-rays (which my mother had), thalidomide, DES, are all now known to be dangerous - But based on short term tests believed to be perfectly safe.

They are doing precisely what they need to do, and have done a remarkably good job of testing these vaccines in a much more diverse population than usual. But kids are not, medically, just miniature adults - and their long term is heck of a lot longer than my long term.

Blue_Adept

(6,393 posts)
36. YOU DON'T EXPERIMENT ON CHILDREN
Mon Aug 23, 2021, 03:12 PM
Aug 2021

There have been active test cycles going on since last year.

They work with smaller batches of people when it comes to kids because they need parental consent.

There are tighter regulations in working with children.

Finding the right dosage is what's critical.

But if you think people have taken a vacation over the concept of figuring out how to handle children getting vaccinated, you're as fucking looney as the people we see screaming about never getting the vaccine.

Do some actual research instead of weird panic cosplay posting here to figure out why it's going.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
4. We know it's safe for adults, and kids over 12
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 08:57 AM
Aug 2021

Younger children are not just smaller adults. Their bodies can react very differently. They want to be as sure as possible before approving vaccines for younger children.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
6. So why didn't they test it on kids at the same time as adults?
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 08:57 AM
Aug 2021

How many kids have died as a result of dragging our feet?

Ms. Toad

(33,992 posts)
19. It is unethical to test a drug not known to be safe on adults,
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 10:13 AM
Aug 2021

On children.

Not to mention an incredible legal risk. Children are not capable of giving informed consent, and there are serious legal questions as to whether a parent can waive a child's right to later sue the manufacturer for being used as a guinea pig.

obamanut2012

(26,041 posts)
25. Good lord, that's something the Nazis did
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 02:26 PM
Aug 2021

You NEVER do clinical tests like this on kids. It is illegal, unethical, and literally something Mengele would have done.

madaboutharry

(40,183 posts)
5. I think they haven't finalized determining the dosage.
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 08:57 AM
Aug 2021

At least that is what I have heard some doctors on television discuss.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
10. Right. So why didn't the start at the same time as the other trials?
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:09 AM
Aug 2021

day 1: Clinical trials for adults.
Day 2 Clinical trials for children.

Instead we got

day 200: Oh yea. Hey we got all the old rich white mean vaxxined and safe....Maybe we should think about doing clinical trials for children?


If they had started both at the same time, or nearly the same time. A lot of kids would still be alive.

That's science.

luv2fly

(2,475 posts)
11. I seem to recall the powers that be felt kids weren't at risk
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:14 AM
Aug 2021

... at least initially. That changed and trials started.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
23. Well we have the largest collection of virus experts right here.
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 11:44 AM
Aug 2021

I wish THEY were working on Pfizer, Moderna etc.

BadgerKid

(4,549 posts)
13. Probably evaluating minimum safest, effective dosage
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:18 AM
Aug 2021

And length of effectiveness. But yes, it’s a frustrating situation. Looks like the pre-kindergarten children will be last to be vaccinated.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
14. It's because mRNA vaccines are associated with rare side effect of myocarditis
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:20 AM
Aug 2021

in young males.
So FDA wanted more extensive studies in younger children.

bluestarone

(16,851 posts)
17. Maybe because, if some kids started to have bad reactions then
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:57 AM
Aug 2021

Adults would start having fears as well. (thus stopping them from taking the shot)! I support how they did this. We just need to let the Drs. do their job! No second guessing here!

haele

(12,635 posts)
22. Our pediatrician told us as soon as Pfiser was officially approved, she could prescribe it for 2-12
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 10:24 AM
Aug 2021

But not until it is officially approved, which hopefully is sometime this week. Similar to flu shots for kids in that age group, the vaccine has to be prescribed by a doctor instead of just given out by a pharmacist.

Next week, Dog willing, the 5 and 9 year olds will be given their first shots...
The 9 year old is terrified of needles though. So I think we all will have to be there with her.

Haele

Ms. Toad

(33,992 posts)
24. There is actually a slightly larger issue than parental consent.
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 02:12 PM
Aug 2021

Once full approval is granted, doctors are permitted to use any medication off-label as they see fit. There have already been discussions of using it off-lablel for children before approval for children is granted: https://providernews.seattlechildrens.org/exceptions-to-covid-19-vaccine-age-limitations/

Most medications are not approved for children, since testing of children raises lots of both ethical and legal concerns. So what happens is the medication is approved for use in adults, and doctors use it off label for children (and for other purposes). My daughter started on pentasa in 1995 when she was 5. It is not yet approved for children, despite the fact that she took it for 13 years as a child, and it is now 26 years later.

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
35. Please take her fear seriously.
Mon Aug 23, 2021, 03:09 PM
Aug 2021

As a lifelong needle phobe, which stems from a child hood thing, please give her all your support and care. These last 18 months have been horrible for those of us with that fear. Needles and pictures of needles everywhere. Constant triggers for anxiety. How she handles this now may very well set the pattern into her adult life.

It’s not “just a little sting” for a lot of us.

Best of luck.

obamanut2012

(26,041 posts)
26. Because we aren't Nazis
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 02:28 PM
Aug 2021

That's what Mengele did. Please do not advocate for unethical, illegal, and dangerous clinical trials on children.

Also, link to proof it's safe for kids? Guess what, there is no proof. It literally doesn't exist, so please quit spreading disinformation saying it's safe for them.

Please advocate for masks instead of literal Naziesque trials.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
27. So taking the vaccine makes one a Nazi?
Sun Aug 22, 2021, 01:02 PM
Aug 2021

That sounds like something right is saying.

Actually. It's exactly what they are saying.

The vaccine is safe. Millions of people have proven it so.

Ms. Toad

(33,992 posts)
33. Testing a vaccine not proven to be safe on adults, on children, is something the Nazi's would do.
Sun Aug 22, 2021, 02:43 PM
Aug 2021

Educate yourself on the ethics of development of new medications. Educate yourself on the shameful history of medical trials on children and racial minorities.

What we know, so far, is that it is safe - in the short term - on adults. We don't know about the long term safety.

That makes it appropriate to start trials on children - under the circumstance in which we hope every single child will be vaccinated. For a less universally used drug, it would still be too soon for child trials.

Taking the vaccine, approved for emergency use, has absolutely no relation to atrocities committed by the Nazis - and no one here (aside from you) has suggested it does.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
34. The point is that they are dragging their feet on getting this proof
Mon Aug 23, 2021, 02:20 PM
Aug 2021

I'm not the one who started up on the Nazi stuff. I just handed it back to whoever brought it up.

The Nazi talk is the stuff of the right wing and whoever upthread brought it up first. (it's not even worth looking it up as it was non-sense in, nonsense out)



However I would also suggest not suggesting that we don't know the long term affect on adults. That's what the right wing is saying and we know it's wrong.


Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

xmas74

(29,669 posts)
30. I had an entire response about how
Sun Aug 22, 2021, 02:28 PM
Aug 2021

Unsafe it would be to test on children and adults at the same time, special consideration for age, etc. I deleted it.

The premise is crazy. No one wants to put their f'n kid out there as a guinea pig for an experimental drug that mom and dad can't have yet. That's why they didn't test kids and adults at the same time.

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