Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine--but no infection parties, please

[Edim]

"The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19."

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties

[Clash City Rocker]

1. Other studies have shown the opposite

That vaccination privides much more, and longer, protection than having had Covid does.

[MisterNiceKitty]

19. can you provide a link to some of those studies?

[Clash City Rocker]

22. Here

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

[MisterNiceKitty]

26. thanks

[MisterNiceKitty]

28. Thanks again & from the study

"The findings in this report are subject to at least five limitations. First, reinfection was not confirmed through whole genome sequencing, which would be necessary to definitively prove that the reinfection was caused from a distinct virus relative to the first infection. Although in some cases the repeat positive test could be indicative of prolonged viral shedding or failure to clear the initial viral infection (9), given the time between initial and subsequent positive molecular tests among participants in this study, reinfection is the most likely explanation.

Second, persons who have been vaccinated are possibly less likely to get tested. Therefore, the association of reinfection and lack of vaccination might be overestimated.

Third, vaccine doses administered at federal or out-of-state sites are not typically entered in KYIR, so vaccination data are possibly missing for some persons in these analyses. In addition, inconsistencies in name and date of birth between KYIR and NEDSS might limit ability to match the two databases. Because case investigations include questions regarding vaccination, and KYIR might be updated during the case investigation process, vaccination data might be more likely to be missing for controls. Thus, the OR might be even more favorable for vaccination.

Fourth, although case-patients and controls were matched based on age, sex, and date of initial infection, other unknown confounders might be present.

Finally, this is a retrospective study design using data from a single state during a 2-month period; therefore, these findings cannot be used to infer causation. Additional prospective studies with larger populations are warranted to support these findings."

[Bad Thoughts]

2. Only after the first shot, not the second

Yes, immunity increases dramatically after thr first mRNA shot among those who have had CV19, but after the second, those not infected have more or less caught up. See Mayo Clinics videos on YouTube.

[viva la]

5. Hmm... so when the immunity starts wearing off, should everyone go get Covid again?

This seems to require a lot of caveats like:

"You will not die from Shot 1 or Shot 2. You might, however, die or be disabled from getting immunity from getting Covid."

"You can go into a pharmacy and get a vaccine in ten minutes, arrange for a second shot, and walk out as healthy as when you went it. If you rely on getting Covid to get immunity, that might take months of waiting, then weeks of illness, and then weeks of recovery. Not very efficient use of your time."

"The vaccine shots are free. A bout with Covid, if you survive, could cost a million dollars."

"You don't have to take off any work or stop your usual activities if you get a shot. If you get Covid, even if you're not very sick, you will have to quarantine for two weeks, meaning you might lose two weeks of pay."


"IF you get a vaccine shot, that will not hurt anyone else. If you get Covid, you could pass it on to your friends, coworkers, and loved ones."

I think maybe all those caveats should be in the article.

[DanieRains]

3. With Both You May Live

Deal me in.

[Merlot]

4. I've been reading the opposite - that people who had covid are more

likely to get re-infected with delta, and that the immunity conferred does not equal that of the vax.

So much information for non-scientists (me!) to parse.

[flying_wahini]

6. That's not what I have read? I read earlier it confers immunity but doesn't stay or last as long.

Just read it about a week ago. Wonder why the disparity?

[viva la]

7. A man I know -- a Republican official-- got Covid in December

Refuses to get a vaccine. Claims he's "immune," even after 9 months-- "like Mr. Trump!"

His daughter says, "Not good enough. You can't visit here until you show us proof of vaccine."

He says, "I want to seem my new grandbaby!"

She says, "Apparently not enough to get a shot to protect him!"

She's furious. Says he loves Trump more than his own family.

[Ms. Toad]

12. She should tell him that natural immunity wasn't good enough for Trump.

He finally admin acknowledged that ha was vaccinated.

[viva la]

13. He should get the same one!

Then he can feel like he's emulating his idol!

This guy, btw, is 67. He still has to worship some father figure.

But he doesn't care about being a father himself, or grandfather.

[ARPad95]

8. Excerpt from NIH Director's blog

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

Now, a new NIH-supported study shows that the answer to this question will vary based on how an individual’s antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 were generated: over the course of a naturally acquired infection or from a COVID-19 vaccine. The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection.

[DenaliDemocrat]

9. This is a bullshit pre-print

Based open observation, no measurable values, and has not been peer-reviewed.

Yes, I read the article and the paper it referenced. It’s junk.

[LisaL]

18. I also find it hard to believe.

Majority of people getting infected right now are un-vaccinated.
If natural immunity provided such strong protection, where are all these people coming from? Between vaccines and natural immunity (we probably had at least third of people in the US infected by now), I would think we should be approaching almost everybody having immunity, yet we still have massive numbers of people getting infected each day.

[Ms. Toad]

20. It would be helpful to gather and analyze data not just on vaccinated v. not

But on vaccinated v. prior confirmed COVID case v. unvaccinated.

My parents did try to create natural immunity with chicken pox and mumps parties - the latter largely because with 5 kids and a father who had never had mumps, having sequential cases of mumps was pretty dangerous - and at the time there were no vaccinations for either.

And while I do, generally, believe that natural immunity is longer-lasting and stronger than immunity induced by vaccination - to try that with COVID is assinine. It would be like trying to create natural immunity by seeking out polio.

And, for perspective, those same parents who intentionally tried to infect their kids to get the disease over with completely isolated during COVID 19. For Christmas last year they asked all of their kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids to get vaccinated when able.

But - from a scientific perspective I'd like to have data I can trust to have a sense of how strong the protection is, and how well it protects across variants. I interact with others based on how risky I believe their status and behavior is to me. That would give me one more puzzle piece.

[LisaL]

21. My parents never tried to create "natural" immunity.

I got whatever vaccines I was supposed to get.
I don't believe this preprint on covid induced immunity.
It implies very strong protection but we know people are being re-infected with delta.

[Ms. Toad]

23. This was back in the pre-vaccine era

And mumps is dangerous for an adult male. Each time one of us got mumps, my father needed to move out of the house to avoid contracting it. With 5 kids, getting it at unpredictable times, that's a lot of risk.

There's not much "there" there in the preprint. The numbers are pretty small. I don't place much reliance on it - but I am curious. My guess (supported by earlier studies) was that the immunity would have been more variant-specific when it was created by having had the disease.

[OhioBlue]

31. Our parents exposed us to chicken pox on purpose before vaccines were available.

There seemed to be a range of ages in which chicken pox was a much milder case. Anecdotally, maybe around 3-9. Babies and toddlers still in diapers seemed to have more of a rash and fevers were higher. My parents exposed me and my siblings to cousins during summer break. Their thought was we wouldn't miss school and we were all still close to the age range where symptoms were mild. My siblings and cousins were all in that range and all had mild cases. I was just at the older end of the range and had a longer illness and more of a rash.

[BannonsLiver]

25. It's irresponsible junk.

That will distorted and dumbed down into a meme by nut job anti vaxx trolls and then widely disseminated on Facebook where it will no doubt convince low info types to forgo vaccinations. It’s a virtual certainty at least of those people will end up dead because of it.

[Ms. Toad]

10. There are perils associated with drawing conclusions based on very small numbers.

The differences are huge,” says Thålin, although she cautions that the numbers for infections and other events analyzed for the comparisons were “small.” For instance, the higher hospitalization rate in the 32,000-person analysis was based on just eight hospitalizations in a vaccinated group and one in a previously infected group. And the 13-fold increased risk of infection in the same analysis was based on just 238 infections in the vaccinated population, less than 1.5% of the more than 16,000 people, versus 19 reinfections among a similar number of people who once had SARS-CoV-2.

The numbers of targeted outcomes are so small that a small change in outcomes would dramatically change the conclusions.

Especially since it is coherent than other studies have found, I'll wait and see what else turns up.

[Tanuki]

11. Why did you leave out this part?

..."The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and then received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated."


So, even if you've had covid, you should still get vaccinated!

[LisaL]

14. I don't buy that. It's contradictory to other studies.

And if natural immunity was so effective, I don't think we would be seeing the number of covid infections we are seeing now.

[Raven123]

15. Interesting. Of course those who survived COVID-19 are a select group

This is an interesting observational study into natural versus vaccine immunity, that may help devise vaccine strategies.

[LisaL]

16. Probably at least third of the US had been infected by now.

"The United States had the most reported COVID cases and deaths in the world in 2020. Just how dire was the pandemic’s first year? A new study suggests that nearly one in three Americans had a COVID infection in 2020,.."

https://fortune.com/2021/08/27/how-many-americans-had-covid-2020-research/

[chowder66]

17. Great. This just gives maniac's another reason to forego vaccinations. They won't think about

the long-term and in some instances life-long health issues that can come with getting Covid.

[BannonsLiver]

24. Meh. I'm not sure I buy this.

[Sogo]

27. Why, I just saw on FB that the Israelis have done studies

on the efficacy of Ivermectin, too.....

[LisaL]

29. And how did that go?

I am assuming that participants ended up worm free, at least?

[Sogo]

30. As a friend of mine pointed out,

Ivermectin kills parasites. Let 'em take it!