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Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:03 AM

Laurence Tribe: If Garland doesn't prosecute Trump, the rule of law is "out the window"

*Long article, but here is a snip....

(Salon) As wrote in my Boston Globe op-ed, what I'm saying to Merrick Garland is: Wake up! You've got to do something to hold this man accountable. Now somebody could say, well, what about the presumption of innocence? How do you know he's guilty? All I can say in response is that we've heard with our own ears, and Donald Trump has never denied, that he said to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, "Just find me 11,780 votes." To me that is compelling proof that Trump was essentially trying to erase his legitimate loss by creating votes that were not his. That is stealing the election.

Moreover, it's an attempted coup when Trump twists the arm of his acting attorney general and tells him, "Just say that the presidential election was corrupt, and I'll take care of the rest with my friends in Congress." On its face, that is proof of corrupt intent beyond reasonable doubt. It is also proof of a plan to take over the country without legitimately winning. That's a crime.

So the question is: Why is it taking so long? One possible answer is that it's not easy to get a conviction of a president. What appears compelling to a layperson is going to be difficult in practice. It will also be difficult to put down the riots that the very announcement of an indictment may bring. There may be a great deal of worry about fomenting civil war to no good end, because we will not succeed in holding the president accountable.

In the end, all I can do is make the counter-argument that if you're worried about the consequences of going ahead with this evidence against Trump and perhaps not convicting him, then you had better start worrying about the consequences of not going ahead with this evidence — and telling presidents in the future, including this president, who undoubtedly is going to try to seize power again one way or another, that they can get away with this. If that is the message, then the rule of law has basically been thrown out the window.

Read More: https://www.salon.com/2021/08/30/laurence-tribe-if-garland-doesnt-prosecute-trump-the-rule-of-law-is-out-the-window/

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Reply Laurence Tribe: If Garland doesn't prosecute Trump, the rule of law is "out the window" (Original post)
FM123 Aug 2021 OP
kacekwl Aug 2021 #1
RicROC Aug 2021 #74
KPN Aug 2021 #2
lagomorph777 Aug 2021 #18
Solomon Aug 2021 #72
onecaliberal Aug 2021 #3
spanone Aug 2021 #4
JudyM Aug 2021 #5
Rebl2 Aug 2021 #6
bullwinkle428 Aug 2021 #13
Ligyron Aug 2021 #24
Evolve Dammit Aug 2021 #78
Champp Aug 2021 #7
CrispyQ Aug 2021 #8
SoonerPride Aug 2021 #61
Evolve Dammit Aug 2021 #79
overleft Aug 2021 #9
lastlib Aug 2021 #39
fwvinson Aug 2021 #42
Crunchy Frog Aug 2021 #49
Native Aug 2021 #10
KS Toronado Aug 2021 #16
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #65
Captain Zero Aug 2021 #69
KS Toronado Aug 2021 #71
PortTack Aug 2021 #34
Crunchy Frog Aug 2021 #50
swimboy Aug 2021 #11
Fiendish Thingy Aug 2021 #12
kacekwl Aug 2021 #52
Fiendish Thingy Aug 2021 #59
Tiger8 Aug 2021 #14
Ponietz Aug 2021 #75
hadEnuf Aug 2021 #15
smirkymonkey Aug 2021 #51
lagomorph777 Aug 2021 #17
Glaisne Aug 2021 #19
Paladin Aug 2021 #20
Snackshack Aug 2021 #21
Justice matters. Aug 2021 #27
Slammer Aug 2021 #45
Snackshack Aug 2021 #47
Slammer Aug 2021 #54
Snackshack Aug 2021 #56
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #22
FoxNewsSucks Aug 2021 #35
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #41
CrispyQ Aug 2021 #53
Snackshack Aug 2021 #48
treestar Aug 2021 #57
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #63
treestar Aug 2021 #64
Sewa Aug 2021 #66
treestar Aug 2021 #82
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #77
treestar Aug 2021 #83
msfiddlestix Aug 2021 #84
Thunderbeast Aug 2021 #23
kentuck Aug 2021 #25
twodogsbarking Aug 2021 #26
JHB Aug 2021 #38
twodogsbarking Aug 2021 #55
Jon King Aug 2021 #28
bahboo Aug 2021 #40
world wide wally Aug 2021 #81
SheltieLover Aug 2021 #29
ScratchCat Aug 2021 #30
ffr Aug 2021 #31
Hotler Aug 2021 #32
Peregrine Took Aug 2021 #33
FoxNewsSucks Aug 2021 #36
Demsrule86 Aug 2021 #37
fwvinson Aug 2021 #43
Eyeball_Kid Aug 2021 #44
cannabis_flower Aug 2021 #46
treestar Aug 2021 #58
Mr. Ected Aug 2021 #60
rockfordfile Aug 2021 #62
LineReply .
Takket Aug 2021 #67
Blue Owl Aug 2021 #68
BSdetect Aug 2021 #70
intrepidity Aug 2021 #73
OldBaldy1701E Aug 2021 #76
Hotler Aug 2021 #80

Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:09 AM

1. I can not recommed this post

this op-ed enough. I don't want to live the trump years over again and for how many years the next time.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 06:15 AM

74. My Republican sister just told me that she

dreads TFG running again in 2024. She won't be able to even turn on the TV if his face is on it.

Dems need to realize we are the majority and there ARE independents and Repubs who will stand with us.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:10 AM

2. What hundreds here have been saying for 6 or 7

months now. There is no excuse for not prosecuting TFG. But is there even a DOJ investigation?

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Response to KPN (Reply #2)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:51 AM

18. They're letting the Jan 6th terrorists off with a slap on the wrist and a Cancun vacation.

Doesn't look too good for prosecuting the coup plotters at the top.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #18)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:11 PM

72. Even a federal judge in DC has raised the issue

of whether the insurrectionists are getting dispositions that are way too lenient.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:11 AM

3. K&R

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:11 AM

4. K&R

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:14 AM

5. Thanks for posting this. Biden also needs to get rid of Christopher Wray, get a real FBI director.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:20 AM

6. So Agree!

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Response to JudyM (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:41 AM

13. This is going to be one of those, "I loved them before they went commercial"

posts, but I was one of the loud-mouths on DU calling for Pres. Obama to dump James Comey when he was head of the FBI, being a Shrub appointee.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #5)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:59 AM

24. Absolutely.

And it needs to be done like, yesterday.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 07:52 AM

78. Agreed.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:26 AM

7. k and r

prosecute the Republican traitors.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:26 AM

8. Finally, someone brings up the Raffensperger call.

I haven't read anything about that call since the end of spring. It appears the Fulton County prosecutor has dropped the case. ??? WTF? We have it on tape. What more is needed? I think the interviewer was right that a decision has been made to not prosecute Trump.

Question: Why have Donald Trump and other members of his regime not been prosecuted for their many obvious crimes? Where is the accountability? To me it appears that some type of decision has been made at the highest levels of government not to prosecute Trump and his allies in order to "protect" the country.

Answer: There are very accomplished, serious people who have written op-eds saying not to worry and that it is important that Attorney General Merrick Garland builds his case slowly.

These same people have also counseled that the American people should not assume that because we know nothing about investigations into the role of Mo Brooks and Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump himself in fomenting the insurrection that there is not in fact a grand jury looking into those matters.

I hope that is the case. But if you are correct and there's been some kind of decision at a high level that we shouldn't rock the boat, that we should look forward, not backward, that we should let bygones be bygones, that we should not descend into what some people will call an endless spiral of vengeance and retribution, that we had better not go after people like Trump, then the country is in really desperate trouble.


“If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator. Hehehe.” George W. Bush


Looking forward—it's what our side does. We can't ignore the fact that we have some blame in this mess.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 03:20 PM

61. I have given up all hope of him ever facing any accountability. Ever.

It is a depressing realization that he has gotten away with everything his entire miserable life.

Rules only apply to you and me.

Not the rich and powerful.

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Response to SoonerPride (Reply #61)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 07:59 AM

79. It is reeaally hard not to think otherwise at this point. Even a little. I see no justice and even

the convicted were all pardoned by the Mafia Don. Unrelated, but related, even Cosby is out FCS.
Two sets of laws. Them: Do whatever you want; you'll get off even if you kill people. Us: Don't steal a pack of gum or you're wearing orange.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:30 AM

9. If the Jan 6 perpetrators are not brought to bear the weight of their crimes

our country will not stand.

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Response to overleft (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:07 AM

39. Without prosecution of the perpe-traitors, Jan. 6th becomes a dress rehearsal.

There WILL be a "next time." And it won't be pretty.

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Response to lastlib (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:23 AM

42. I hear, the "next time", is coming in the near future.

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Response to lastlib (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:15 PM

49. There won't need to be one. It will all be done electorally, by the R legislatures.

It will be done in such a way as to look and feel legitimate. It's just that there will never be a competitive election in this country again.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:31 AM

10. I imagine they want to make absolutely sure it's a lock before moving forward

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Response to Native (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:45 AM

16. Absolutely correct, our Justice System always goes after the ring leaders last.

Lot of people are running out of patience which is what we need more of right now.
Hopefully we'll see Qrump behind bars in less than 2 years, yes it might take that long.

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #16)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 04:57 PM

65. We "hope" in Vain... the writing has been on the wall for sometime

it ain't happening.

I don't want to "get used to" that being a fact. I want us all to head to DC and make our voices resoundingly CLEAR.

This should not stand.

The whole concept of being patient for justice to "signal" to the public at large that something is a foot, is a PSYOPS operation.

I feel like attorneys in our community should start admitting it.

Nearly every passing day evolve into weeks, months soon it will be years with nothing happening.

Will it finally admitted then? Or will more excuses be tossed our way for fodder?

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Response to KS Toronado (Reply #16)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:33 PM

69. And when the ringleader is running in 2024.

Then what. I expect to hear it would be unseemly to prosecute a candidate currently running for president.

So then it will be too late and just enough Republican legislatures will declare him their winner that he will be installed.

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Response to Captain Zero (Reply #69)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:16 PM

71. I see Nancy Pelosi is going after Qrump with her Jan 6th select committee.

They're going after the "tourist guides" who are members of congress first, working their way up the ladder
to the ringleader. It's just how prosecutors operate, always have always will. We've had a Grand Jury in
New York going after him for years and if he hadn't been throwing rocks into the gearbox while he was prez
He'd probably be in jail already. Plus there's 2 other Grand Juries going after him for election meddling.
By the time 2024 comes around there's going to be so much of his dirty laundry made public, even
reQublicOns will start to sour on him. Personally I see him in jail before the next Presidential election.
And I'm talking moderate reQublicOns will sour on him, never the MAGA crowd, which is another plus for
us, keeping their party divided and confused which direction to go should get us more seats in 2022.

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Response to Native (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:35 AM

34. As our friend Glen Kirschner frequently reminds us "justice matters" and it takes time

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Response to Native (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:17 PM

50. You have a better imagination than I do. I hope you're right. nt

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:35 AM

11. 11,780

“I just need you to find 11,780 votes.”

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:37 AM

12. Garland has until the end of 2024 to complete any investigation and prosecution of Trump

After that, it will be too late for democracy and the rule of law.

Realistically, Trump should be indicted shortly after the 2022 midterms, so that his trial would hopefully be completed by the end of 2024.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:29 PM

52. You think if we lose the midterm elections

the GOP traitors will allow investigation to proceed ? I don't.

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Response to kacekwl (Reply #52)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 03:09 PM

59. They can stop congressional investigations, but not DOJ

And DOJ can prosecute, Congress can’t.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:42 AM

14. Not even a subpoena

 

Subpoena Trump UNDER OATH in front of cameras - and he will be exposed for what he is - his "Joe McCarthy moment" if you will.

But nooooo. Makes me suspect that Democrat/Republican is just one big club.

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Response to Tiger8 (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 06:35 AM

75. Pretty galling to be lectured about unity without justice

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:43 AM

15. We are either going to face the consequences of holding Trump accountable

or we are going to face the consequences of not holding him accountable and the real probability of him or his ilk getting power again.

If Trump and / or his minions seize power again they will clearly abuse their authority to the maximum and that is a fact. The only choice at that point will be to literally force him from power or simply capitulate and accept his rule.

I'm afraid that these extremists are not going to stop without a fight of some sort. It's what they are salivating for. We either do what needs to be done and fight their still splintered groups when they start their BS, or try and fight them after they seize total control over the government again.

Which one is more winnable?

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Response to hadEnuf (Reply #15)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:21 PM

51. +1000

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:48 AM

17. ...and so is our democracy.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:51 AM

19. Rule of law is like taxes

it's only for the little people.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:51 AM

20. +1000. Enough talk---DO SOMETHING about trump, and do it NOW. (nt)

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:52 AM

21. He is absolutely right.

This deference given to previous Presidents must be stopped. Ford gave Nixon a pass, Obama gave Bush Jr. as pass and Wall Street. This needs to end or future bad actors are going to push the envelope further expecting no accountability (how one could do worse than DT in lying & letting 640,000 Americans die. Studies think that this is closer to 1,000,000 because of under reporting) obviously 2 - 3….10 million is worse.

Mueller was held back by several factors. Had there been no OLC memo or limits placed on him by Rosenstein he would have looked at financials and I believe charged DT with crimes.

President Biden need to set all of that aside and instruct his AG to conduct a full & comprehension investigation of how deep the coordination went in the attack on our Capitol Jan 6.

Also how the response to the Pandemic was so blatantly botched. Every year there is the potential for a pandemic but usually the government is fairly successful in stopping these before they get out of hand. DT clearly did not do that. He admitted he lied about how bad it was. There were stories that some of the responses were slow walked because it was hitting blue states hardest if true people need to go to jail for that. There were several stories about Health & Human services showing up confiscating tons of PPE where that went no one knows. There are still some 20million doses of vaccine not accounted for.

These two event at least need to be gone over with a fine tooth comb. There are many other events as well.
The info MBS used to make all those arrests.
The Qatar issue after denying Kushner that loan.
The obstruction of Justice telling his lawyer to fabricate document concerning the Russian collusion.
Emoluments.
Abuse of office by using it for profit. Why was the FBI not allowed to move. The Military forced to land at his golf course is Scotland.
Kennedy’s abrupt retirement and Kavanaughs suddenly disappeared debt.
Immigration
Etc, etc, etc,

We will never know just how badly DT damaged this country. I don’t think a day went by that he did not break a law. Accountability needs to happen.

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Response to Snackshack (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:03 AM

27. Fully agree with this and more crimes, but... but...

Although it's obvious a Grand Jury would indict him (majority rule), the fact that a criminal trial Jury (requires a unanimous verdict to convict) MAY exonerate the orange terrorist at the end of a long (and dangerous...) trial, could end up creating a lot more chaos than just waiting for the select committee to finish its investigation into the attempted coup.

Criminal trials require 100% guilty verdicts to convict. - Rule of Law

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Response to Snackshack (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:54 AM

45. emoluments

During the first two weeks of the Trump administration, he took a trip and stayed at one of his properties.

His Secret Service detail followed him, of course.

And Trump rented rooms at his resort to his Secret Service detail. And received a check from the government for it.

That's a direct violation of the Constitution. And if we had Senators in both parties who cared about the Constitution and the rule of law, Trump would have been up for impeachment immediately after taking office.

Even if Trump had rented the rooms at cost or at a loss, which he didn't, he'd still be in violation of the emoluments clause. A president can't sell things to the government. The government can't buy things from a president.

Trump can't even try to argue that this was some sort of an "incidental expense by the government which would have happened" anyway since Trump was the one who chose to stay at his own property then chose to charge the Secret Service for following him there.

It took two years for the Washington Post to confirm that the government cut a check to Trump. But it was obvious that Trump did it because that's what he'd been doing during the campaign after he was given Secret Service protection: treating their nightly hotel expenses like a government-funded machine which put money in his own pocket. (That was legal as a presidential candidate, though questionable ethically. Presidential candidates can take non-salary money from the government in business transactions.)

It was one of those open secrets in Washington that Trump continued doing selling hotel rooms to his Secret Service detail after he took office, the point in time when doing that became a violation of the Constitution.

Everyone knew it was happening repeatedly but no one wanted to admit it in public. And no one wanted to do anything about it. Not Republicans, not Democrats, and not potential whistleblowers in the Secret Service or various government accounting departments.

I screamed bloody murder about it from the first time it happened, not that it did any good....

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Response to Slammer (Reply #45)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:04 PM

47. Correct.

Then having foreign dignitaries staying at trump hotel there in DC was a blatant violation of the emoluments clause. A case was made against him for the emoluments violations that went all the way to the Supreme Court sometime last year. CJ Roberts and the court sat on it until March or April of this year before dismissing it. Their reason for dismissing it… was that trump was no longer President so it was a moot point.

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Response to Snackshack (Reply #47)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:46 PM

54. moot

It's not a moot point as long as it's grounds for impeachment, and it remains grounds for impeachment as long as Trump is alive.

Impeachment can do two things: "remove someone from office" and "keep him from holding any office or appointment from the national government".

An impeachment of Trump which happened today couldn't remove him from office.

But it could certainly stop the Republicans from appointing him to be Speaker of the House (which is a key step for one of the QAnon conspiracy theories to restore Trump to the presidency).

And it would stop Trump from being nominated to be a justice on the Supreme Court.

And it would stop Trump from being an ambassador.

Or running for president.

Or being appointed to the board of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts (which has become a political patronage position doled out as a reward for services rendered).

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Response to Slammer (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:58 PM

56. From CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/25/politics/emoluments-supreme-court-donald-trump-case/index.html

Washington (CNN)The Supreme Court declined on Monday to hear a case concerning whether former President Donald Trump violated provisions of the Constitution that bar a president from profiting from a foreign government.

The court instructed the lower courts to wipe away previous lower court opinions that went against Trump because he is no longer in office. It leaves unresolved a novel question raised in the case because Trump, unlike other presidents, did not use a blind trust when he assumed the presidency, but instead continued to retain an interest in his businesses and let those businesses take money from foreign and domestic governments. The order was issued without comment or dissent. There were two cases covering the issue before the justices. One was initiated by lawyers for Maryland and Washington, DC, who argued Trump violated the Constitution by accepting payments from foreign and domestic governments through the Trump International Hotel in DC. They said they were disadvantaged in competing for business from foreign and state officials who may choose to do business with entities in which the President had a financial interest in order to curry favor.

A second case was brought by various members of the hospitality industry who own or work in hotels or restaurants in New York and Washington, who also argued they were put at a competitive disadvantage. Deepak Gupta, one of the attorneys challenging Trump in the disputes, said on Twitter following the court's decision that he wasn't surprised the case was dismissed as moot after Trump left office, adding it's "disappointing that Trump ran out the clock. I'm proud of the work we did to ensure the Constitution's anti-corruption norms weren't forgotten," he wrote.

The group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, which had a part in the cases against Trump, said on Monday that the lawsuits "made the American people aware for four years of the pervasive corruption that came from a president maintaining a global business and taking benefits and payments from foreign and domestic governments. Only Trump losing the presidency and leaving office ended these corrupt constitutional violations stopped these groundbreaking lawsuits," Noah Bookbinder, the group's executive director, said in a statement. At the center of the case was the Constitution's Emoluments Clause, which has faced few judicial interpretations since it was written almost 250 years ago. The Emoluments Clause prohibits a president from receiving an "emolument" or profit from any "King, Prince, or foreign state" unless Congress consents. The so-called domestic emoluments clause entitles a president to receive a salary and benefits fixed in advance by Congress, but prohibits him from receiving "any other emolument from the United States." "The Supreme Court's procedural order not only wipes away two lower court rulings, but it also orders dismissal of the entire dispute -- leaving for some other time resolution of the many questions Trump's conduct raised about the Emoluments Clause," said Steve Vladeck, a CNN Supreme Court analyst and professor at the University of Texas School of Law. "Ordinarily, the Court pursues such a step only when the prevailing party moots a case while the appeal is pending -- as opposed to here, where the disputes became moot because Trump's term ended," he added. "Today's orders suggest that the court is increasingly willing to invoke this doctrine to avoid highly charged political disputes, even if the mootness wasn't caused by the parties that won below."

A lower court had allowed 38 subpoenas that were served on five federal agencies that demanded information about money spent by those agencies at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC. In court papers, lawyers for Trump's Department of Justice had argued the lower court in the case brought by Maryland and DC "fundamentally erred in permitting this unprecedented and extraordinary lawsuit to proceed" and called the alleged injury "attenuated and speculative." DC Attorney General Karl Racine and Maryland Attorney General Brian Frosh said in a joint statement on Monday that their case "will serve as precedent that will help stop anyone else from using the presidency or other federal office for personal financial gain the way that President Trump has over the past four years." Former Office of Government Ethics chief Walter Shaub blasted the court's decision as "insane" in a tweet, arguing the emolument cases were not moot, as the court said. "Trump) still has the money. When any other federal employee violates the emoluments clause they have to forfeit the money," Shaub wrote.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:58 AM

22. que the atty's here that say: "it's all good. it just takes time, just be patient and stop all the

complaining" or "what makes you think Garland isn't getting this done?" and "just because he doesn't confide with you, doesn't mean it's not happening" etc. etc. ad nausea.



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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:41 AM

35. No kidding. We know that, and yet they'll be along every time

We were patient when Fitzgerald investigate BushCheneyCo and all that patience did was buy time for their lawyers to use Lewis "Scooter" Libby to obstruct so that none of the others would get indicted. It worked. And MF45 pardoned him.

We were patient, let Mueller do his job, and the only thing that patience accomplished was provide time for MF45 to appoint a corrupt AG who enabled Mueller's crony supervisor to "land the plane".

Fuck all this patience. The criminals operate openly. There has to be something they can be convicted of immediately, then await trial on everything else while incarcerated. That's how you send a message to future criminals.

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Response to FoxNewsSucks (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:14 AM

41. Even the Insurrectionists who do face charges, are given light sentences

it's beyond mind boggling. seriously, our "Justice system" proves over and over and over again, we don't have "equal justice" , never did but we keep trying to prove we do, and are admonished when we lose trust and faith.



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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #41)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:44 PM

53. And allowed to go on vacation.

I was stunned that that was allowed. WTF?

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:12 PM

48. Yep.

As much as that is said one would think DT and his crew are master (lvl100) criminals that did extraordinary jobs at concealing their crimes. When in reality most we’re done right out in the open or are recorded on discs

How is “I just need you to find 11,780 votes” not been charged yet for the election interference it is. If there was a recording of Joe Biden saying that he would been in jail months ago.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 01:01 PM

57. well it is true

anything legal takes longer than people want it to. It is the nature of it. The legal system is not there to assuage our feelings or do what we want when we say jump. And if you are not an expert in it, then why do you think you know? Even Tribe is not actually trying to handle it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #57)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 04:41 PM

63. i know legal matters in court takes time

At this precise moment I'm waiting for a phone call from attorney who is representing a neighbor of mine involved in an "Elder Abuse" case as a defendant. I'm a witness for the defense. The charge is not only specious, it's the other party that is actually guilty of harassment at the minimum.

This matter should have been judicially settled on the first hearing. But it's dragged on due to very wily accuser, who has found and invented all manner of excuses for the case to be continued at the expense of the defendant.

But the fact remains, charges were made. It's being processed in court. It will hopefully be decided in favor of the defense, but either way it's proceeding along.

And though I'm at the moment out of state, I'm being called to testify via zoom next week. The hearing will not be delayed for any flimsy reason or whether or not I make an "appearance".

There is no legal proceedings for the crimes Trump has done. There is no investigation. There are no charges being made.

And that's the hard cold truth of the matter, because the Attorney General and the DOJ or the FBI will not proceed with any of these measures to bring justice to address any of these egregious crimes made be him, his family and his syndicate of mobsters, his insurrection-cult lieutenants etc etc etc.

NOTHING. We are waiting for NOTHING to happen that should be happening. We are waiting for Justice, but we wait in vain.

We are waiting for NOTHING but favorable outcomes for the entire family.

That is what is also true.










,

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #63)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 04:45 PM

64. Prosecutor usually make sure they have the evidence

they have the high burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

And it is not as cut and dried as people think, as you can see.

People will say "it's a slam dunk case" but no case ever is.

Also Garland knows it will be a circus to indict Trump, so it is wise to be careful. If he'd filed already, this same board would have criticisms, possibly that he filed too early and hadn't pinned down the right witnesses. Then he would be slammed him for every motion ruling and evidence ruling that did not go our way.

I don't know how people feel so confident to judge others on their job performance; they would likely not tolerate such criticism directed at their job performance by people who don't have the first qualification for said job.

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Response to treestar (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 05:18 PM

66. Have you heard of the Mueller Report?

Obstruction of Justice has been setting there ready to go for six months now.

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Response to Sewa (Reply #66)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 02:36 PM

82. Just a report

And does it contain evidence of a crime? It can't be judged at all until a statute is identified.

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Response to treestar (Reply #64)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 07:34 AM

77. Job performances and judicial objectives, I would suggest are distinctively different matters

Obviously, the public isn't "in the room" where these matters would be discussed and decisions made.

We can only judge not the performances, but actions which would be revealed in the public domain. Matters and decisions discussed within the room are judged by what if any legal procedures are subject to public scrutiny as would be in any form of democracy.

It's really not that complicated. I haven't been plugged in daily news in recent weeks, but when I do check in, I haven't come across any articles indicating anything going on in SDNY , I think Vance has retired at this point? I'm not positive, but I haven't read or seen much if anything on that front. What's happened with those cases?

As far as everything related to Jan 6th, everything in the public domain. and there has been significant "out in the open" evidence.

It's almost like saying, well we saw the guy shooting everyone on the street with a automated rifle but we're not sure if he should be arrested and charged because there's not enough evidence he committed any crimes. There has to be more investigation.

That is the analogy.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #77)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 02:37 PM

83. It is that complicated

the defense will fight every piece of evidence. It needs to be prepared. Especially when all eyes will be on it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #83)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:06 PM

84. definitely true. way too much to expect from a small district office

are we suffering from a deficit of competency in the FBI/Justice Depts? I recently read FBI has 30,000 Agents nation wide,

Or are there too many sympathizers for insurrectionists and stop the steal occupying top echelon of these agencies, putting their thumb on the progress of potential investigations?

i'm beginning to suspect that is the case, but less I be accused of CT, wasn't there a report posted here on DU in the past couple of weeks or so of the office that oversees Justice essentially stating that "there's nothing to investigate" ?

I'm forgetting the acronym of the office at the moment. Maybe in the morning I'll recall or someone will remind me.

I'm just so saddened, and disheartened at a loss to describe it anymore.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 09:58 AM

23. Since truth is no longer a criteria for justice...

All Trump needs, in the end, is ONE juror with a red hat.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:01 AM

25. I agree with Professor Tribe.

Whether or not people realize it, the rule of law is on trial.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:02 AM

26. There has to be success in nailing Trump.

There is no room for failure. Do it right or don't do it.

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Response to twodogsbarking (Reply #26)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:52 AM

38. "Don't do it" is also a failure.

Do it right, but it does need to be done.

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Response to JHB (Reply #38)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:47 PM

55. Oh yeah.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:08 AM

28. There won't be riots or civil war.

The vast majority of anyone who would do anything besides post angry comments online or gather in groups of 30 with signs were already identified after Jan 6th. Most people are all talk and would not lift a finger to help him in any way.

This notion that there are millions of MAGAs ready to take up arms to defend him is a myth. There would be some rallies here and there. There would be Congress people screaming and yelling. But there would be no wide spread riots.

Prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #28)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:08 AM

40. totally agree.....

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Response to Jon King (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:58 AM

81. We have a winner!

I heard that people are already embarrassed to admit they still support him. Everyone is saying that.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:09 AM

29. Absofuckingloutely!

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:12 AM

30. Let me remind you all of something

Michael Cohen signed a cooperation agreement with the consent of his attorney where he agreed to plead guilty and go to prison in exchange for his testimony against Donald J. Trump in the prosecution - at minimum - of the same crimes Cohen plead to regarding the Stormy Daniels payoff. It would be prosecutorial misconduct for DJT to not be charged per the terms of the agreement. DOJ can't tell Davis "We appreciate your client going to prison and all, but we are dropping the case against his co-conspirator for the good of the country". That isn't going to fly. Trump being referred to as "Individual 1" means there is a separate indictment.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:17 AM

31. No healing until justice is done.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:18 AM

32. Mr. President, the American people want to know, are you as pissed off

over the 1/6 coup attempt as we are? it doesn't seem like it.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #32)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:35 AM

33. Yes. I compare it to the Church's seeming reluctance to fully pursue the child molesters

in their ranks in that they (hierarchy) have NO IDEA how much the "butts in the pews" are incensed about this situation as are decent Americans livid about 1/6 and trumpism, in general.

Both protected and powerful groups live in their bubbles and think, ultimately, it will all just fade away in our minds as there are SO many other things to worry about.

Nope we can handle multiples issues that infuriate us.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:45 AM

36. That is all true. Yes, it takes time to get an airtight case

and that is important.

Some matters don't have an urgency, so time is not of the essence. That's not the case here. The crimes of MF45, his corrupt family, and his criminal administration not only need to be prosecuted correctly, they needed to be prosecuted swiftly. Crimes against democracy should be considered a national emergency.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 10:45 AM

37. Trump is basically a mob boss... would bet that he is not on record of telling anyone to do anything

You can know someone is guilty but you have to be able to prosecute them successfully...and what are the chances of a Trumper being on a jury and there is no guilty verdict? I would say very high... I think he is guilty and losing the presidency and as much money as we can pry out of his grubby hands at the state level, and sicking the IRS on him may be all we will ever get.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:25 AM

43. If they want a "civil war" then I'll get my ammo ready.

I would rather die than live in a "fascist" state.
I AM ANTIFA

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 11:39 AM

44. So we have a crisis of Courage?

Does the DOJ have the courage of its convictions? Or is it being led by a rationalizing coward who will justify his weakness by claiming that he’s protecting the nation from instability?

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 12:02 PM

46. This goes all the way back

To when Gore won the election but conceded anyway without a fight.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 01:03 PM

58. "to me" that is compelling proof

It must seem so to Mr. Garland. And under what statute? I don't see what statute is quoted here.

the rule of law is thrown out the window by prosecuting cases that don't have enough evidence to prove the elements of the charge. Even as a lawyer, I know you'd have to find the statute that this statement (and is there admissible proof in court, because publication in the media does not provide a foundation). Even nonlawyers should know that.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 03:16 PM

60. Laurence Tribe speaks truth and always has

Our systems are corrupt, though. If the laws were to be adjudicated in the manner spelled out in the Constitution, this wouldn't even be a question. But gangsters have insinuated themselves in every aspect of government and at every level, including our courts. We can claim to be a country abiding by the rule of law, but that's a lot of sanctimonious bullshit. It's the system we want, it's the system we herald and abide by, but it's not the system in place.

Trump was the beginning of the end. Unless we proceed with prosecution of the head of the beast, that end is accelerating.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 03:23 PM

62. I agree

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 05:43 PM

67. .

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 06:57 PM

68. K&R

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Mon Aug 30, 2021, 08:54 PM

70. Yes

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 02:39 AM

73. Justice delayed is justice denied

We have been denied justice. Plain as that.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 06:59 AM

76. No offense Mr. Tribe

But the 'rule of law' has been out the window for a lot longer than this issue. Just ask anyone who is not white about it.

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Response to FM123 (Original post)

Tue Aug 31, 2021, 09:25 AM

80. Kicking... nt

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