Hopefully, I am permitted to ask this: if it was appropriate to shoot Ms Babbitt as she was

[Atticus]

violently attempting to invade the House Chamber after being ordered by police not to do so on January 6th, would it be appropriate to shoot members of the anticipated crowd on September 18th if they violently attempt to invade the Capitol Building in violation of police warnings not to?

Same question as to a clearly marked and manned security perimeter established by law enforcement.

[Demsrule86]

1. Absolutely. They need to stay out of the capitol.

[bottomofthehill]

28. It is not that easy to shoot someone over an empty building

Look at the toll it took on Lt Michael Byrd. his actions were clearly justified, but have left an awful emotional toll on him.

[lagomorph777]

2. Yes.

Meet them with a wall of automatic weapons, to discourage them from starting anything. If they choose to start something, mow them the fuck down.

[bottomofthehill]

29. What do you think about the White House last summer

The courthouse in Portland and the police station that was burned. Mowing people down is never a good idea. It is a last resort, and one that leaves deep emotional scars on the shooters. It is not easy to take a life.

[Demsrule86]

3. Also Ms. Babbitt would have let the mob into area which had about 60 Congress people...so

it was appropriate. I believe most if not all the Congress people in that room would be dead had they not stopped her.

[maxsolomon]

37. I don't think that was the intent of most of that mob.

Hostage taking, yes.

They could have brought semi-automatic firearms; those were largely absent, by design. The Fascists who planned the invasion knew not to bring them as they'd have crossed a line with the public.

[Paladin]

4. Without question. (nt)

[OnDoutside]

5. Water canon and rubber bullets for breaking through the security perimeter, deadly force for

breaking into the Capitol.

[bottomofthehill]

30. I wish we had water canons on 1/6. Would have cleared the crowd

[OnDoutside]

48. I agree, all the easily led wouldn't have fancied being soaked in January !

[2naSalit]

45. Yup.

And should that happen, I hope it's cold that day.

[bottomofthehill]

50. About 1500 psi should get the job done.

[2naSalit]

51. Flush them out...

Yes indeed.

[bottomofthehill]

52. Wish they were there in Jan on 1/6.

Even though it was not a freezing cold day, it was cold enough to add misery, and believe me, they deserved misery.

[2naSalit]

53. The same here...

If only. But that was part of the strategy, no response to the mob.

[MenloParque]

6. 100%

Evil doing trespassers must be shot center mass on site! Kid gloves are off, fight fire with fire! Lets go!!

[bottomofthehill]

31. Tresspassers must be shot, need to think that through

I have a deep hatred for the insurrectionists deeper than most, but you don't get to shoot people on site. and trust me, you dont want that to become the norm.

[dalton99a]

7. Shoot them dead without hesitation. They must be killed.

[MiHale]

8. Yes...

And if needed on 9/18 use deadly force. They want a war give it them. They set the agenda, it’s their call if deadly force is used.

[Make7]

9. It should not come to that.

If it does, the plans to defend the Capitol are pretty useless.

There should be plenty of manpower staged this time. Less lethal methods of crowd control should be enough repel anything but hundreds of thousands of fanatical people willing to die for next to nothing.

Lethal force is always a possibility if people's lives are in danger, but if it is employed, I would deem it a failure of the security preparations.

[Mad_Machine76]

16. I agreed with just about everything you said

except for the last part. Ideally, lethal force shouldn't be required and should be a last resort. But I don't know if I agree that having to resort to it is a "failure of the security preparations". Hopefully, since law enforcement isn't going to be neutered like it seemed to be on 1/6, it would not come to that but if people are going to show up with weapons and things get violent, a violent response may be required.

[Demsrule86]

18. They should not be allowed in the capitol preriod. They may have weapons and/or bombs. Now

Now during the women's march, they blocked the White House completely. They were 'skeered' of more than a million peaceful women. But these thugs really are dangerous and the White House must be blocked completely.

[bottomofthehill]

27. Love the Seamus Heney quote. I spent a lot of time in the North

Unfortunately, the Capitol Police have no choice but to grant the permit for the protest on 9/18 under the First Amendment. There are conditions though, Peacefully Assembled is the one to cite here. If this crowd returns in its insurrectionist form and behaves similarly, than every single one of them should be locked up. EVERY SINGLE ONE. But if they come to petition their government, no matter how stupid the petition may seem, they have that right. Cross the line and suffer the consequences. This protest is significantly different than 1/6. The House and Senate are not in session, the Members of Congress and their staffs are, for the most part not in the building and all of the forces of government can be brought to bear. The Executive Branch resources will not be blocked like the National Guard, Homeland, FBI, and other federal resources that were not in play on 1/6. I don't think President Biden and his staff will be gleefully dancing around in a party tent while one branch of Government allows an attack on another branch.

The Bolds below are mine, but they show why the USCP must allow for the event to occur until and if such time it goes beyond PEACEFUL, then other actions can ans should take place.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Make7]

24. In most cases, I think lethal force only occurs after the situation escalates.

Which means any attempts at de-escalation failed or weren't really attempted. But I would agree that some people are looking to engage in a lethal confrontation for whatever misguided reason they may have - then there really is only one option. However, having adequate numbers of trained personnel should hopefully be able to prevent such cases before they become deadly.

I worry that there might be some knuckleheads actually wanting people to die in order to start their "civil war". My hope is that security will be able deny such persons of their wish and nobody ends up losing their life.

[Atticus]

22. Sadly, we seem go be in a period when events that "should not" occur have become daily events.

I wonder, if it had "come to that" on January 6th, would th here even be a September 18th event to worry about?

[Make7]

26. Or would it have started more widespread conflict?

The security personnel were vastly outnumbered for most of 1/6. Shooting into a crowd that could overrun your position is probably not a good move for many reasons.

They have essentially made a martyr of Ashli Babbitt, what would happen if there were dozens killed that day? Isn't this protest supposedly about the Capitol rioters in prison? Political prisoners they are claiming. What would the protest be if it was dozens of their side in graves?

ETA:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I'd rather not feed the delusions of anyone believing they are the "patriots" Jefferson spoke of.

[Atticus]

32. Essentially, I disagree with everything you said and although neither of us KNOW the

answers to your questions, I am sure my views about those would be very different than yours.

I don't know you, but you seem to believe that letting the insurrectionists have their way is preferable to doing something that might piss them off. Their delusions do not require our "feeding". They are a baked-in "given" that we must deal with.

[Make7]

57. Well, you are right that you don't know me.

I don't know you, but you seem to believe that letting the insurrectionists have their way is preferable to doing something that might piss them off.

That isn't what I believe at all. No reasonable interpretation of what I wrote should lead one to that conclusion.

[lagomorph777]

39. Security personnel were outnumbered BY DESIGN. Trump's cronies held them back.

Hopefully that situation has been remedied.

[Make7]

58. If that situation hasn't been remedied, something is seriously wrong with security in D.C. ( n/t )

[LeftInTX]

38. Agree

[padfun]

10. Yes. In fact, Insurrection should be the death penalty

I think it use do be but not sure.

[wryter2000]

11. Just have enough armed police

They won't try anything. They're cowards.

[Sneederbunk]

12. They will be more photographed than on January 6.

[hlthe2b]

13. As soon as any demonstration turns decidedly violent, civil disobedience protections are no longer

a given. Certainly, police have the right to protect themselves, their "charges" (as in the Congresspeople they were protecting) and to preserve Federal property. Indiscriminate shooting to preserve private property is a bit more "iffy," but would likely be defensible if violence had broken out and deadly weapons were likely involved--including fire-setting.

[jalan48]

14. The perfect example of a good guy with a gun scenario.

[Prof. Toru Tanaka]

25. Spot-on post.

[obamanut2012]

15. yes

[BlueJac]

17. Time to make a statement on securing the capital!

All hands on deck.

[Texaswitchy]

19. Some snipers would help.

A few warning shots.

[lagomorph777]

40. Snipers don't do "warning shots" - and in this situation, should not.

Shoot to kill. That will warn the rest.

[Texaswitchy]

41. Didn't want to come out and say it.

Wouldn't take many.

It is easy to be tough when the police are not ready and out numbered.

Try it again.

[bottomofthehill]

44. Where do you think the warning shots should go in a heavily populated city

The M4 fires a round that is still lethal at 1000 yards, thats over 1/2 mile, in DC.......

[Texaswitchy]

47. I will not say where.

I hope it doesn't come to it.

The crowd might be more stupid then we think.

I would hope rubber bullets and gas would do the trick.

[stillcool]

20. they shouldn't have had to shoot her

she never should have gotten that far. It's not like they don't know how to dispel a crowd.

Federal law-enforcement officers stocked up on semiautomatic rifles hours before forcefully clearing protesters from Lafayette Square in Washington, DC, according to whistleblower testimony obtained by The Washington Post.
Officers also unsuccessfully sought to obtain a controversial "heat ray" that can cause second-degree burns, according to the testimony, which was submitted to lawmakers by a top DC National Guard officer.

https://www.businessinsider.com/feds-sought-pain-ray-rifles-lafayette-square-protest-trump-photo-2020-9

[maxsolomon]

46. Undermanned, with no National Guard on the way.

National Guard deployment delayed courtesy of Lt. Gen Charles Flynn, brother of Michael Flynn, installed at the DOD in that specific role by Trump's last-minute Sec Def.

[stillcool]

55. there had to be so many involved

recently read some ex-feebie warning that the Insurrection rally chatter is on the level of pre-Jan 6th, when supposedly there was no chatter. Such absolute horseshit it's unreal. And yet, hook, line, and sinker.

[treestar]

21. Not unless like her they get close enough

to injure or kill someone. Not just for property crimes.

[zuul]

23. . . .

[tritsofme]

33. It seems like some are actually rooting for a massacre.

Deadly force should be a very last resort, we should all hope it never comes to that.

[gratuitous]

34. Remember who was president on January 6; he ain't there no more

A competent administration (and the current administration is that and more) will have a suitable response ready, and leadership won't hesitate to mobilize all necessary law enforcement. It will be quite unlike January 6, when our nation's leaders set a riot in motion and then adjourned to enjoy the violence and mayhem from a safe distance.

[joshcryer]

35. They won't have the fortitude to invade this time.

Half of them probably have long haul COVID.

It was Trump's speech beforehand and the concerted collaboration beforehand that permitted the first invasion. People who sought to turn the mob into an invasion force and used psyop tactics to rile the mob up. What I may get in trouble for is the fact that most of the mob didn't in fact invade. Had the majority of the mob invaded there would have been nothing the capitol police could've done and it would've been a truly insane scenario where the military itself would've had to get involved. Had Babbit not been shot this is actually very likely to have happened because the mob would've been further emboldened (and at some point would have acquired capitol police weapons).

We're talking a Cliven Bundy style standoff with the government. We are talking having to do the Electoral Count in some other building in DC heavily guarded.

[iemanja]

36. I think the distinction is

if the mob becomes violent.

[Vinca]

42. I would rather have a massive police presence and plenty of handcuffs to arrest them.

Ashley Babbitt was shot because she breached the last line of protection between the homicidal crazies and members still in the House chamber. I don't want anyone shot to protect windows. I'd rather they end up in jail.

[bottomofthehill]

43. Thank You!!!

Deadly force takes a terrible toll on the shooter also. Even when justified it takes a toll.

[XanaDUer2]

49. I'd be okay with hoses

1/6 must never happen again

[lame54]

54. They're bringing guns this time...

It has to be their biggest regret the first time around

[lastlib]

56. Like Area 51--cross the fence, die. Simple--direct--

even a tRumper could grasp it. End of matter.

[LiberalFighter]

59. I would be okay if certain those guilty were on the end of it.

But if using snipers for example there would be a problem. Shooting away from Capitol towards insurrectionists there might be innocent on receiving end such as journalists or actual tourists.

If sniper is stationed towards the Capitol those inside guarding might be on the receiving end and causing damage to the Capitol.

Same could be said for those inside the Capitol shooting out into the crowd of insurrectionists outside the building. Unless action is limited to close quarters.