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Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:40 AM

Hopefully, I am permitted to ask this: if it was appropriate to shoot Ms Babbitt as she was

violently attempting to invade the House Chamber after being ordered by police not to do so on January 6th, would it be appropriate to shoot members of the anticipated crowd on September 18th if they violently attempt to invade the Capitol Building in violation of police warnings not to?

Same question as to a clearly marked and manned security perimeter established by law enforcement.

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Reply Hopefully, I am permitted to ask this: if it was appropriate to shoot Ms Babbitt as she was (Original post)
Atticus Sep 2021 OP
Demsrule86 Sep 2021 #1
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #28
lagomorph777 Sep 2021 #2
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #29
Demsrule86 Sep 2021 #3
maxsolomon Sep 2021 #37
Paladin Sep 2021 #4
OnDoutside Sep 2021 #5
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #30
OnDoutside Sep 2021 #48
2naSalit Sep 2021 #45
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #50
2naSalit Sep 2021 #51
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #52
2naSalit Sep 2021 #53
MenloParque Sep 2021 #6
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #31
dalton99a Sep 2021 #7
MiHale Sep 2021 #8
Make7 Sep 2021 #9
Mad_Machine76 Sep 2021 #16
Demsrule86 Sep 2021 #18
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #27
Make7 Sep 2021 #24
Atticus Sep 2021 #22
Make7 Sep 2021 #26
Atticus Sep 2021 #32
Make7 Sep 2021 #57
lagomorph777 Sep 2021 #39
Make7 Sep 2021 #58
LeftInTX Sep 2021 #38
padfun Sep 2021 #10
wryter2000 Sep 2021 #11
Sneederbunk Sep 2021 #12
hlthe2b Sep 2021 #13
jalan48 Sep 2021 #14
Prof. Toru Tanaka Sep 2021 #25
obamanut2012 Sep 2021 #15
BlueJac Sep 2021 #17
Texaswitchy Sep 2021 #19
lagomorph777 Sep 2021 #40
Texaswitchy Sep 2021 #41
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #44
Texaswitchy Sep 2021 #47
stillcool Sep 2021 #20
maxsolomon Sep 2021 #46
stillcool Sep 2021 #55
treestar Sep 2021 #21
zuul Sep 2021 #23
tritsofme Sep 2021 #33
gratuitous Sep 2021 #34
joshcryer Sep 2021 #35
iemanja Sep 2021 #36
Vinca Sep 2021 #42
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #43
XanaDUer2 Sep 2021 #49
lame54 Sep 2021 #54
lastlib Sep 2021 #56
LiberalFighter Sep 2021 #59

Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:41 AM

1. Absolutely. They need to stay out of the capitol.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:47 PM

28. It is not that easy to shoot someone over an empty building

Look at the toll it took on Lt Michael Byrd. his actions were clearly justified, but have left an awful emotional toll on him.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:41 AM

2. Yes.

Meet them with a wall of automatic weapons, to discourage them from starting anything. If they choose to start something, mow them the fuck down.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:50 PM

29. What do you think about the White House last summer

The courthouse in Portland and the police station that was burned. Mowing people down is never a good idea. It is a last resort, and one that leaves deep emotional scars on the shooters. It is not easy to take a life.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:43 AM

3. Also Ms. Babbitt would have let the mob into area which had about 60 Congress people...so

it was appropriate. I believe most if not all the Congress people in that room would be dead had they not stopped her.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:13 PM

37. I don't think that was the intent of most of that mob.

Hostage taking, yes.

They could have brought semi-automatic firearms; those were largely absent, by design. The Fascists who planned the invasion knew not to bring them as they'd have crossed a line with the public.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:44 AM

4. Without question. (nt)

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:47 AM

5. Water canon and rubber bullets for breaking through the security perimeter, deadly force for

breaking into the Capitol.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:51 PM

30. I wish we had water canons on 1/6. Would have cleared the crowd

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:16 PM

48. I agree, all the easily led wouldn't have fancied being soaked in January !

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 02:50 PM

45. Yup.

And should that happen, I hope it's cold that day.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:30 PM

50. About 1500 psi should get the job done.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #50)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:44 PM

51. Flush them out...

Yes indeed.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:46 PM

52. Wish they were there in Jan on 1/6.

Even though it was not a freezing cold day, it was cold enough to add misery, and believe me, they deserved misery.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #52)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:48 PM

53. The same here...

If only. But that was part of the strategy, no response to the mob.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:52 AM

6. 100%

Evil doing trespassers must be shot center mass on site! Kid gloves are off, fight fire with fire! Lets go!!

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Response to MenloParque (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:53 PM

31. Tresspassers must be shot, need to think that through

I have a deep hatred for the insurrectionists deeper than most, but you don't get to shoot people on site. and trust me, you dont want that to become the norm.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:52 AM

7. Shoot them dead without hesitation. They must be killed.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:54 AM

8. Yes...

And if needed on 9/18 use deadly force. They want a war give it them. They set the agenda, itís their call if deadly force is used.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:54 AM

9. It should not come to that.

If it does, the plans to defend the Capitol are pretty useless.

There should be plenty of manpower staged this time. Less lethal methods of crowd control should be enough repel anything but hundreds of thousands of fanatical people willing to die for next to nothing.

Lethal force is always a possibility if people's lives are in danger, but if it is employed, I would deem it a failure of the security preparations.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:09 PM

16. I agreed with just about everything you said

except for the last part. Ideally, lethal force shouldn't be required and should be a last resort. But I don't know if I agree that having to resort to it is a "failure of the security preparations". Hopefully, since law enforcement isn't going to be neutered like it seemed to be on 1/6, it would not come to that but if people are going to show up with weapons and things get violent, a violent response may be required.

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Response to Mad_Machine76 (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:13 PM

18. They should not be allowed in the capitol preriod. They may have weapons and/or bombs. Now

Now during the women's march, they blocked the White House completely. They were 'skeered' of more than a million peaceful women. But these thugs really are dangerous and the White House must be blocked completely.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:46 PM

27. Love the Seamus Heney quote. I spent a lot of time in the North

Unfortunately, the Capitol Police have no choice but to grant the permit for the protest on 9/18 under the First Amendment. There are conditions though, Peacefully Assembled is the one to cite here. If this crowd returns in its insurrectionist form and behaves similarly, than every single one of them should be locked up. EVERY SINGLE ONE. But if they come to petition their government, no matter how stupid the petition may seem, they have that right. Cross the line and suffer the consequences. This protest is significantly different than 1/6. The House and Senate are not in session, the Members of Congress and their staffs are, for the most part not in the building and all of the forces of government can be brought to bear. The Executive Branch resources will not be blocked like the National Guard, Homeland, FBI, and other federal resources that were not in play on 1/6. I don't think President Biden and his staff will be gleefully dancing around in a party tent while one branch of Government allows an attack on another branch.

The Bolds below are mine, but they show why the USCP must allow for the event to occur until and if such time it goes beyond PEACEFUL, then other actions can ans should take place.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Response to Mad_Machine76 (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:27 PM

24. In most cases, I think lethal force only occurs after the situation escalates.

Which means any attempts at de-escalation failed or weren't really attempted. But I would agree that some people are looking to engage in a lethal confrontation for whatever misguided reason they may have - then there really is only one option. However, having adequate numbers of trained personnel should hopefully be able to prevent such cases before they become deadly.

I worry that there might be some knuckleheads actually wanting people to die in order to start their "civil war". My hope is that security will be able deny such persons of their wish and nobody ends up losing their life.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:20 PM

22. Sadly, we seem go be in a period when events that "should not" occur have become daily events.

I wonder, if it had "come to that" on January 6th, would th here even be a September 18th event to worry about?

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Response to Atticus (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:40 PM

26. Or would it have started more widespread conflict?

The security personnel were vastly outnumbered for most of 1/6. Shooting into a crowd that could overrun your position is probably not a good move for many reasons.

They have essentially made a martyr of Ashli Babbitt, what would happen if there were dozens killed that day? Isn't this protest supposedly about the Capitol rioters in prison? Political prisoners they are claiming. What would the protest be if it was dozens of their side in graves?

ETA:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I'd rather not feed the delusions of anyone believing they are the "patriots" Jefferson spoke of.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:57 PM

32. Essentially, I disagree with everything you said and although neither of us KNOW the

answers to your questions, I am sure my views about those would be very different than yours.

I don't know you, but you seem to believe that letting the insurrectionists have their way is preferable to doing something that might piss them off. Their delusions do not require our "feeding". They are a baked-in "given" that we must deal with.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 07:59 PM

57. Well, you are right that you don't know me.

I don't know you, but you seem to believe that letting the insurrectionists have their way is preferable to doing something that might piss them off.

That isn't what I believe at all. No reasonable interpretation of what I wrote should lead one to that conclusion.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:20 PM

39. Security personnel were outnumbered BY DESIGN. Trump's cronies held them back.

Hopefully that situation has been remedied.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 08:03 PM

58. If that situation hasn't been remedied, something is seriously wrong with security in D.C. ( n/t )

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Response to Make7 (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:16 PM

38. Agree

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:54 AM

10. Yes. In fact, Insurrection should be the death penalty

I think it use do be but not sure.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 11:57 AM

11. Just have enough armed police

They won't try anything. They're cowards.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:00 PM

12. They will be more photographed than on January 6.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:00 PM

13. As soon as any demonstration turns decidedly violent, civil disobedience protections are no longer

a given. Certainly, police have the right to protect themselves, their "charges" (as in the Congresspeople they were protecting) and to preserve Federal property. Indiscriminate shooting to preserve private property is a bit more "iffy," but would likely be defensible if violence had broken out and deadly weapons were likely involved--including fire-setting.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:02 PM

14. The perfect example of a good guy with a gun scenario.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:33 PM

25. Spot-on post.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:05 PM

15. yes

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:09 PM

17. Time to make a statement on securing the capital!

All hands on deck.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:13 PM

19. Some snipers would help.


A few warning shots.

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Response to Texaswitchy (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:22 PM

40. Snipers don't do "warning shots" - and in this situation, should not.

Shoot to kill. That will warn the rest.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #40)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:28 PM

41. Didn't want to come out and say it.

Wouldn't take many.

It is easy to be tough when the police are not ready and out numbered.

Try it again.

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Response to Texaswitchy (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 02:20 PM

44. Where do you think the warning shots should go in a heavily populated city

The M4 fires a round that is still lethal at 1000 yards, thats over 1/2 mile, in DC.......

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #44)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 03:05 PM

47. I will not say where.

I hope it doesn't come to it.

The crowd might be more stupid then we think.

I would hope rubber bullets and gas would do the trick.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:13 PM

20. they shouldn't have had to shoot her

she never should have gotten that far. It's not like they don't know how to dispel a crowd.
Federal law-enforcement officers stocked up on semiautomatic rifles hours before forcefully clearing protesters from Lafayette Square in Washington, DC, according to whistleblower testimony obtained by The Washington Post.
Officers also unsuccessfully sought to obtain a controversial "heat ray" that can cause second-degree burns, according to the testimony, which was submitted to lawmakers by a top DC National Guard officer.

https://www.businessinsider.com/feds-sought-pain-ray-rifles-lafayette-square-protest-trump-photo-2020-9



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Response to stillcool (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 03:05 PM

46. Undermanned, with no National Guard on the way.

National Guard deployment delayed courtesy of Lt. Gen Charles Flynn, brother of Michael Flynn, installed at the DOD in that specific role by Trump's last-minute Sec Def.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 06:10 PM

55. there had to be so many involved

recently read some ex-feebie warning that the Insurrection rally chatter is on the level of pre-Jan 6th, when supposedly there was no chatter. Such absolute horseshit it's unreal. And yet, hook, line, and sinker.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:18 PM

21. Not unless like her they get close enough

to injure or kill someone. Not just for property crimes.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:24 PM

23. . . .

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 12:59 PM

33. It seems like some are actually rooting for a massacre.

Deadly force should be a very last resort, we should all hope it never comes to that.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:02 PM

34. Remember who was president on January 6; he ain't there no more

A competent administration (and the current administration is that and more) will have a suitable response ready, and leadership won't hesitate to mobilize all necessary law enforcement. It will be quite unlike January 6, when our nation's leaders set a riot in motion and then adjourned to enjoy the violence and mayhem from a safe distance.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:04 PM

35. They won't have the fortitude to invade this time.

Half of them probably have long haul COVID.

It was Trump's speech beforehand and the concerted collaboration beforehand that permitted the first invasion. People who sought to turn the mob into an invasion force and used psyop tactics to rile the mob up. What I may get in trouble for is the fact that most of the mob didn't in fact invade. Had the majority of the mob invaded there would have been nothing the capitol police could've done and it would've been a truly insane scenario where the military itself would've had to get involved. Had Babbit not been shot this is actually very likely to have happened because the mob would've been further emboldened (and at some point would have acquired capitol police weapons).

We're talking a Cliven Bundy style standoff with the government. We are talking having to do the Electoral Count in some other building in DC heavily guarded.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:07 PM

36. I think the distinction is

if the mob becomes violent.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:28 PM

42. I would rather have a massive police presence and plenty of handcuffs to arrest them.

Ashley Babbitt was shot because she breached the last line of protection between the homicidal crazies and members still in the House chamber. I don't want anyone shot to protect windows. I'd rather they end up in jail.

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Response to Vinca (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 01:56 PM

43. Thank You!!!

Deadly force takes a terrible toll on the shooter also. Even when justified it takes a toll.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 04:20 PM

49. I'd be okay with hoses

1/6 must never happen again

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 05:04 PM

54. They're bringing guns this time...

It has to be their biggest regret the first time around

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 07:38 PM

56. Like Area 51--cross the fence, die. Simple--direct--

even a tRumper could grasp it. End of matter.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Sep 7, 2021, 09:21 PM

59. I would be okay if certain those guilty were on the end of it.

But if using snipers for example there would be a problem. Shooting away from Capitol towards insurrectionists there might be innocent on receiving end such as journalists or actual tourists.

If sniper is stationed towards the Capitol those inside guarding might be on the receiving end and causing damage to the Capitol.

Same could be said for those inside the Capitol shooting out into the crowd of insurrectionists outside the building. Unless action is limited to close quarters.

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