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Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:09 AM

Some of the January 6th defendants have offered been negotiated pleas to misdemeanors with no

jail time and multiple other charges---including some felonies--- dismissed. Some of the justifications for these dispositions include "they were first offenders" who said they "did not realize" crossing police lines and invading the Capitol were crimes and "thought their actions were legal" since "President Trump" requested them.

These are of the same quality as the first offender who claims "I have no idea how that bag of weed got into my purse, but it ain't mine!"; the wide-eyed first offender who cries "Meth lab in my bedroom? How'd that get there?"; or, "She's 14? She said she was 18---honest!"

Of course, all of those excuses would get those offenders no-jail-time deals, right?

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Reply Some of the January 6th defendants have offered been negotiated pleas to misdemeanors with no (Original post)
Atticus Sep 2021 OP
HAB911 Sep 2021 #1
bottomofthehill Sep 2021 #3
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #22
Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #29
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #30
Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #36
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #42
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #2
Bluethroughu Sep 2021 #4
Steelrolled Sep 2021 #5
AkFemDem Sep 2021 #6
Atticus Sep 2021 #9
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #11
Atticus Sep 2021 #14
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #16
Atticus Sep 2021 #21
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #31
Effete Snob Sep 2021 #12
Post removed Sep 2021 #17
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #19
Atticus Sep 2021 #24
Effete Snob Sep 2021 #27
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #20
JT45242 Sep 2021 #7
Tomconroy Sep 2021 #8
Atticus Sep 2021 #13
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #15
Hortensis Sep 2021 #38
Tomconroy Sep 2021 #18
ecstatic Sep 2021 #10
Phoenix61 Sep 2021 #23
Effete Snob Sep 2021 #26
GregariousGroundhog Sep 2021 #37
Silent3 Sep 2021 #25
Elessar Zappa Sep 2021 #28
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #32
Elessar Zappa Sep 2021 #39
Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #33
StarfishSaver Sep 2021 #35
Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #40
Me. Sep 2021 #34
dsc Sep 2021 #41
clementine613 Sep 2021 #43

Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:17 AM

1. Ignorance of the law is no excuse*

Essentially, it means that if someone breaks the law, he or she is still liable even if they had no knowledge of the law being broken. Thomas Jefferson said, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse in any country. If it were, the laws would lose their effect, because it can always be pretended.”


* For some

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Response to HAB911 (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:20 AM

3. They all know what they did

They were all warned, they were all told they were participating in a riot they are all guilty and yet they are all walking. It makes me sick.

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Response to bottomofthehill (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:46 AM

22. When and by whom were they all told they were participating in a riot?

 

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:04 AM

29. I dunno. The cops outside the Capitol?



Police hold back supporters of US President Donald Trump as they gather outside the US Capitol’s Rotunda on January 6, 2021, in Washington, DC. – Demonstrators breeched security and entered the Capitol as Congress debated the a 2020 presidential election Electoral Vote Certification. (Photo by Olivier DOULIERY / AFP) (Photo by OLIVIER DOULIERY/AFP via Getty Images)

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:14 AM

30. When this picture was taken, the Capitol had already been breached at other points

 

And many of the people who came in were far back in the crowd and may or may not have heard the warnings and may not have even seen the police at the barricades
- which were gone by the time they got closer.

There would have to be solid evidence - not that some nebulous group of "they" - that the individual defendant in each case was warned before they went in the building, that they personally heard the warning, and that after hearing that warning, they did not leave.

The prosecutors may or may not have that information. We definitely do not, so it's impossible for any of us to conclude that every single individual defendant is being treated with kid gloves.

I'm certainly not defending any of those people. I think they're reprehensible and is guilty as sin and would love to see them all locked up with harsh sentences. But there's a huge difference between what I think about these people and what prosecutors can prove against individual defendants in a court of law. I'm just trying to explain that this is not as cut and drird as some people think.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:08 AM

36. It's helpful to set expectations.

My priority is the arrest of the conspirators, in particular their chief architect: the President of the United States, who ordered a mob to attack the Congress of the United States and stop the certification of President-elect Joseph Biden. Every excuse for the conspirators’ behavior moves the nation closer to tyranny.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 12:09 PM

42. I believe the arrests and convictions of the insurrectionists are essential building blocks

 

Leading toward the indictment and prosecution of the co-conspirators.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:18 AM

2. Could you please cite specific sources?

 

Thanks.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:21 AM

4. It pisses me off, they are damn domestic terrorists that tried

To take over the government. Could it be any worse?

They managed to take over the building for hours. Back in the day they would have hung or shot every single one in the public square, now they get a ticket.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:23 AM

5. Not suprising

 

When it comes to protests, it seems like charges are frequently dropped or reduced. Or maybe that is the justice system in general.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:24 AM

6. And that's absolutely normal

Mitigating and litigating evidence is used to plea down and in sentencing for many offenders, committing a vast array of crimes. Drug crimes and sexual offenders actually DO get these same deals all the time. That’s why whenever someone does something super awful and the media reveals their previous criminal history we’re all outraged to learn they’d been arrested 34 times before and were out on the streets after serving just 4 months for a rape. It’s not a perfect system, but in general the arc of the universe bends towards justice.

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Response to AkFemDem (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:30 AM

9. Armed insurrection and sedition are not "normal". nt

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Response to AkFemDem (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:31 AM

11. Thank you

 

It's easy to look at isolated cases and assume they are aberrations and gin up outrage, especially among people who aren't familiar with how the criminal justice system works. Facts and context are important. Thanks for providing some.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:39 AM

14. And you have no idea how "familiar" I am with how the justice system works. I have a different view

so I must be ignorant?

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Response to Atticus (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:40 AM

16. Why do you think I was referring to you when pointing out some people aren't familiar with this?

 

Read my post again.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #16)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:45 AM

21. Disingenuity is not helpful. nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:15 AM

31. No, it's not

 

That's why I keep asking you to cite a source for the assertions in your OP, which, so far, you have not produced.

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Response to AkFemDem (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:34 AM

12. The other thing the OP ignores

Is the effect on one's life of being "in the system."

First, these deals have monitoring conditions that last a while. If any of these people steps out of line, or is even pulled over for a routine traffic violation, their probationary status pops up.

These kinds of things dog a person for a long, long time.

In most instances, it has an effect on their behavior. Most people do not want to go through the ringer again, or have their deal revoked and be penalized for what they are required to admit in order to get the deal.

That makes sense to people whose idea of a criminal justice system is oriented toward one that attempts to "get people to behave lawfully."

But there are certainly a lot of people - including people who think of themselves as more liberal-leaning - whose primary guiding principle is "punish bad people" instead of "attempt to influence behavior".

The "punish bad people" thing is also evident in the "ridicule people who die or are injured due to poor judgment or low intelligence" theme (aka "Darwin Award" ) which is common in many posts.

I believe that a lot of this sort of thing may derive from some sort of personal insecurity or frustration which manifests in a desire to see other people feel pain of some kind.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #12)


Response to Post removed (Reply #17)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:43 AM

19. You really don't like being challenged, do you?

 

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:47 AM

24. It is straw men and disingenuity I dislike. nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:58 AM

27. "Everyone who disagrees with me is a liar" is not a useful position


Whether the criminal justice system should be primarily punitive, or whether it should be primarily focused on modifying behavior is not a question of whether people are being honest in their opinions. It may be a measure of emotional maturity or experience in what is the most efficient route toward maintaining an adequately civilized society.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:44 AM

20. +1000

 

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:28 AM

7. if they were white and middle class -- likely so. If they were white and rich all would be dropped

Kraft the owner of the Patriots (billionaire) -- caught on videotape dead to rights for solicitation and other crimes. Charges dropped.

Son of Carl Lindner [former owner of Reds billionaire] (this was decades ago) arrested with large amount of cocaine. Charged with misdemeanor possession and given a fine.

Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, etc. all had their crimes covered up by the white power establishment (see Bill Barr).


Milken brothers led to the partial collapse of the economy twice (junk bonds and the mortgage crisis) -- only one brother charged with minor charges on junk bonds.

Enron dude...
All the C-suites of the banks who caused the mortgage bubble -- walked away with almost nothing.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:29 AM

8. I think you have to examine each case individually to see the

reasons for the disposition. What is someone guilty of if they just wandered in and out of the Capitol after the doors were open and after Congress adjourned? Trespass for sure. Maybe not much else. As I understand it under the federal sentencing scheme a misdemeanor offender can get prison or probation but not both. So judges are opting for a period of supervision.

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Response to Tomconroy (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:36 AM

13. Do you believe anyone who entered the Capitol just "wandered in"? Were they not there to

"fight like hell" and engage in "trial by combat" to "stop the steal"?

In my book, that's more than trespass and these deals would be scoffed at if the defendants were BLM protestors opposing "president" Trump.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:40 AM

15. Some actually may have - but it has to be determined on a case by case basis

 

That's why blanket assumptions about every case without knowing the facts of each individual case and defendant are not useful.

Do you have a source for your OP? It would be helpful to know which cases you're referring to and the facts of each one.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #15)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:15 AM

38. Agree with Starfish Saver. Case by case.

Some of these people were great fools who believed they were patriots reclaiming a nation taken over by traitors. Useful idiots for those still using and victimizing them. Guilty; needing a babysitter is no defense, but it should be considered when charging and sentencing.

And some are in a whole different class of traitors and criminal conspiracists. And wannabe murderers. The ones racing to capture legislators before they could be gotten away, while others were taking selfies or urinating on the floor to demonstrate their contempt for government.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:42 AM

18. Without a social media confession it's hard to know what

Was in someone's mind when they entered the Capitol. Were they there to interrupt the proceedings or merely to protest the result of the election (which is protected free speech)? That's exactly the issue being raised to defend some of these cases.
The example of people interrupting the Kavanaugh hearings is being brought up a lot. Were those people trying to stop a congressional proceeding or just expressing their free speech rights?

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:31 AM

10. Our justice system is a joke. There needs to be a lot more consistency

and fairness.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:47 AM

23. Probation can mushroom into a ridiculously

lengthy time in jail. For the people for whom this really was a one off-caught up in the crowd didn’t engage with any LEO’s they’ll finish the terms of their probation and life will go on. For the dumbasses who knew what they were doing? They’ll end up in jail for Violation of Probation. They’ll get caught drinking or hanging out with someone they aren’t allowed to hang out with or caught at another rally… it’ll happen. And since they already plead guilty they’ll serve whatever the original sentence was.

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #23)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:54 AM

26. Precisely


It all depends on whether your idea of a criminal justice system goal is "modify behavior" or "punish bad people".

These kinds of deals have a way of weeding out people who cannot exercise sufficient self control and have no interest in modifying their behavior.

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Response to Phoenix61 (Reply #23)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:09 AM

37. This is 100% spot on.

I have a friend who was convicted of operating while intoxicated, and she basically offered to serve a longer jail sentence in exchange for not being put on probation. I don't know what the details of the probation would have been, but the judge offered her 14 days in jail with probation afterwards or 60 days in jail with no probation afterwards. She took the later offer. She just wanted to get it over as quickly as possible and move on with her life.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 09:48 AM

25. Apart from the obvious white privilege and leniency on right-winger issues...

...another reason you're going to see a lot of 1/6 insurrectionists get off easy is that the legal system is swamped with all of these cases. The courts simply don't have the time to prosecute a lot of contested charges.

So remember, kids, if you want to do something illegal and get off easy, do it in a big crowd of people all breaking the law at the same time.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:01 AM

28. Unfortunately,

plea deals are very common in federal cases. I think it’s done to keep the courts functioning efficiently. I don’t think they should plea down any of the accused felons, however. They need the book thrown at them.

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Response to Elessar Zappa (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:23 AM

32. "Throwing the book" at someone sounds good

 

But it's easier said than done - and whether that's worth doing always depends on the individual facts and available evidence in each case.

Prosecutors usually want nothing more than to throw the book at people. But if they can't guarantee that that book will actually smack them down - and the defendant stance a good chance of being acquitted and walking free if it doesn't - the prosecution is wise to work out a plea deal that will guarantee a conviction, even if the sentence won't be as harsh as it would have been with a conviction at trial.

A conviction and lesser sentence is always better than a dismissal or acquittal.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #32)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:45 AM

39. I agree with that but

I’d hate to see those who assaulted the Capitol police get a light sentence. I hope those receive serious time.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 10:38 AM

33. Please post links to all felony to misdemeanour plea bargains

Out of over 600 arrests, I bet the number of felony to misdemeanour plea deals is in the single digits, and probably include cooperation agreements with the DOJ having the option to submit superseding felony indictments.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:06 AM

35. Good luck - I've asked for this repeatedly, but none have been forthcoming

 

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #35)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:53 AM

40. Yeah, I'm guessing it was just vengeance driven hyperbole

I understand the sentiment, but if we succumb to bloodlust, we are no better than the insurrectionists.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:02 AM

34. This Is Why Judges Are Raising Hell About These Convenience Deals

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 11:59 AM

41. I would hope the weed one would

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Fri Sep 10, 2021, 01:35 PM

43. Every one of them should serve life in jail.

If I believed in the death penalty, I'd say that they deserve that.

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