Masks for school children?

[Tomconroy]

Here's a long article from New York magazine. In Britain and Scandinavian countries they don't require masks in schools. I don't really have an opinion. Just food for thought.


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/the-science-of-masking-kids-at-school-remains-uncertain.html

[lagomorph777]

1. How do you not have an opinion?

Even if you don't like kids, this is a great way to spread it in the adult population.

Horrible.

[Tomconroy]

2. Read the article. Masking the teacher makes a difference. Masking kids may not.

There are theories that masking kids can do damage. That's why the Brits don't do it.

[Demsrule86]

3. You are anti-mask and anti-vax too maybe? Kids should wear masks...kids have and will

continue to die of Covid as will those they infect...personally, my kids would be homeschooled or on virtual if they were not in college where they are on virtual right now. I saw the post about maybe not needing a booster. Also, there was a concert I believe in New York where you reported the number of cases actually went down. Really?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

4. A few posts ago they were arguing that everyone should wear masks at home

But apparently kids not wearing masks in schools is okay?

[Demsrule86]

5. The OP has pushed these sort of articles...as I pointed out...ignoring the hundreds that

have a different point of view.

[Tomconroy]

11. If you check you'll find I was the first person on the board to call for a national vaccine mandate.

I believe in doing smart stuff. You need to read more of my posts. For instance check out today's thread on boosters.

[Demsrule86]

23. I read you posts.

[Tomconroy]

6. The Brits and Scandinavians don't care about their kids? The WHO

Doesn't care about children. Did anyone read the article about the CDC study.
We don't wear masks where we should: in the household.

[Demsrule86]

8. Sweden attempted to do herd immunity and killed so many of their citizens...and further more

those countries are tiny compared to our country.

[Scrivener7]

13. Woah, woah, woah! So your position is no masks in school, yes masks in the household?

What is this shit? Why is this here?? SMDH.

[Tomconroy]

15. Don't know about masks in schools. There may be better alternatives. If households are a

Major source of symptomatic and asymptomatic infection aren't masks at home a no brainer?

[Demsrule86]

7. I looked at the study...and it was done in Georgia.

Mask Use and Ventilation Improvements to Reduce COVID-19 Incidence in Elementary Schools — Georgia, November 16–December 11, 2020
Weekly / May 28, 2021 / 70(21);779–784

On May 21, 2021, this report was posted online as an MMWR Early Release.

Jenna Gettings, DVM1,2,3; Michaila Czarnik, MPH1,4; Elana Morris, MPH1; Elizabeth Haller, MEd1; Angela M. Thompson-Paul, PhD1; Catherine Rasberry, PhD1; Tatiana M. Lanzieri, MD1; Jennifer Smith-Grant, MSPH1; Tiffiany Michelle Aholou, PhD1; Ebony Thomas, MPH2; Cherie Drenzek, DVM2; Duncan MacKellar, DrPH1 (View author affiliations)

Also, the first author is DVM...a doctor of Veterinary medicine? This really is a right-wing talking point...these studies exist in order to help DeSantis and Kemp.

Here are two articles...that refute your claim...one actually in Georgia.

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-scientific-studies-suggest-that-masking-can-help-limit-transmission-of-sars-cov-2-in-schools-contrary-to-claim-in-federalist-ron-desantis/

https://www.propublica.org/article/two-school-districts-had-different-mask-policies-only-one-had-a-teacher-on-a-ventilator

At the end of the article cited in your OP...some important caveats are reported...first of all, this is a survey. The information is only as good as those providing it...and we know that many Georgia schools don't want masks in school. But more importantly, the incidence of Covid was self-reported...thus the entire study in my view is hopelessly flawed which is probably why it has been largely ignored.

"The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, many COVID-19 cases were self-reported by staff members and parents or guardians, and prevention strategies reported by administrators or nurses might not reflect day-to-day activities or represent all school classrooms, and did not include an assessment of compliance (e.g., mask use). Second, the study had limited power to detect lower incidence for potentially effective, but less frequently implemented strategies, such as air filtration and purification systems; only 16 schools reported implementing this ventilation improvement. Third, the response rate was low (11.6%), and some participating schools had missing information about ventilation improvements. However, incidence per 500 students was similar between participating (3.08 cases) and nonparticipating (2.90 cases) schools, suggesting any systematic bias might be low. Finally, the data from this cross-sectional study cannot be used to infer causal relationships."

[Demsrule86]

9. You should delete this post.

This is picking and choosing articles that support right-wing talking points which makes the false claim masks for kids are not needed in schools (or masks period) ...there are hundreds of articles and studies that do support mask-wearing for school-age kids. Teachers and Kids have died from Covid. The article you cite is not impressive.

[Tomconroy]

10. All studies have limitations described in them. My curiosity about this issue arose when I read an

Article in the Times about the UK not requiring masks in schools.
The right wing talking point is that masks are a matter of personal choice for parents. At least that's what I understand.
The point I found interesting besides the lack of evidence that they help was the conclusion by the Brtish, the WHO and other countries that masks harm children. I guess you would call that a foreign talking point. I hope they aren't banned.
The Times article made me think. That isn't always a popular thing to do.

[Phoenix61]

16. The WHO never said masks harm children.

They say children should wear masks. What Britain said was the benefit didn’t outweigh the harm. The “harm” was based on one persons beliefs as there have been no studies on the impact of masks on children. They had an extensive system in place from education “bubbles” to twice weekly testing to manage covid.

[Demsrule86]

21. That is what I found too.

[Tomconroy]

28. The WHO says no masks for children 5 and under. 6-11 a

Number of factors need to be weighed. 12 and up masks like adults. At least that's what I found.

[Phoenix61]

29. Yes, the only no masks for 5 and under is they

are unlikely to be able to wear them correctly.

[Tomconroy]

30. No

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-children-and-masks-related-to-covid-19

[Phoenix61]

31. Aug 2020. Not the current advice. nt

[Tomconroy]

32. I could be wrong. Would you like to post a link?

[Phoenix61]

33. WHO video

[Tomconroy]

34. Maybe. You would think they would change what's accesible

In their written guidelines. The video seems like it is trying to present a simplistic guide to a more nuanced issue as described in the published guidance.
I think the WHO would make a big announcement if they felt masks were no longer a threat to childhood development. It's obviously a significant issue in parts of europe.

[Demsrule86]

17. Did you read the the 1000's that go against this finding...did you realize it was in Georgia...

an anti-mask state? The data was collected by survey...I can tell you my sister lives in Georgia and school systems are lying their butts off...and there was no way to verify the reported numbers of those kids who did get Covid...as there was little testing. This anti-mask BS is a right-wing talking point and not supported by the vast majority of testing and studies.

[Demsrule86]

20. You cherry pick studies, and I have seen your other posts as well about not needing a booster, and

how a concert in New York did not spike Covid...it seems to me that you have an agenda and look for articles that support your theories...nothing wrong with that I suppose...we all tend to do that. But masks for all including children, and Covid boosters, and not being in a crowd without masks at concerts are all behaviors that save lives. Thus I reject your conclusions and feel that they are based on flawed studies mostly.

[Tomconroy]

22. You never saw a post of mine about not needing a booster. Go and check even today's thread

About boosters. I can admit I can be wrong. Now you can too.

[Demsrule86]

25. Here you go...from the article you posted.

“Current evidence does not, therefore, appear to show a need for boosting in the general population, in which efficacy against severe disease remains high,” the scientists wrote, adding the wide distribution of boosters is “not appropriate at this stage in the pandemic.”

An expert review of scientific evidence to date has concluded that Covid-19 vaccine booster shots are not needed at this time for the general public, a group of leading U.S. and international scientists said Monday in the peer-reviewed journal The Lancet.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15849961

[Tomconroy]

26. By any chance can we bet a martini on this one?

I didn't post that article. Scroll down the thread and send me a martini.
PS: The guy who did post the article was unhappy with it.

PPS: It's been a few minutes. Where's my martini?

[Scrivener7]

12. Why are some STILL trying to debate masks EVEN HERE?? Just wear the fucking mask!!

[Tomconroy]

14. The Brits feel masks harm kids. They do a lot of testing and isolation. And it seems

To be working out. Of course that costs more money. Maybe we don't love our kids as much. Even if you believe in masks the latest info seems to be the only ones that work well are those N95 ones but because the fit needs to be precise they may not be a good match for kids. Maybe we should spend some more money and follow the Brits lead?

[Demsrule86]

18. I think the Brits have done a crappy job on Covid considering their size and that they chose

to isolate themselves via Brexit...so no. We do not need to follow anyone's lead-the Brits can't even put food on their supermarket shelves and are governed by a right-winger.

[Dorian Gray]

19. I think the conversation around this is a hot button

and To be honest, I'm happy that my daughter's school is requiring masks, even for the younger kids (They have a pre-k program for 2-4 year olds). I think my ten year old is fine wearing a mask and I'm happy that her classroom needs it. I want her to be vaccinated asap, so all mitigation is good.

I do understand why some parents of younger kids are wary of mask wearing. I've read the arguments made in the UK about why it isn't recommended. I've read arguments about speech development, especially for kids who are delayed in speech. I think there could be a more nuanced approach where the youngest kids don't need to wear it.

Having said that, I also know quite a few 3 and 4 year olds who are better at wearing their masks than adults are. It's what they know and they're quite comfortable with it.

[liberal_mama]

24. The kids need to be masked for everyone's safety, in my opinion

When my 3 kids were young, children were little germ factories. Has this changed now?

My kids brought home every contagious cold, flu, stomach virus, ect when they were in school. It was such a nightmare that I ended up homeschooling my youngest son, who had severe asthma, because I couldn't deal with it anymore. Any virus, even a mild cold, was a trigger for his asthma.

This Delta variant is so contagious. My kids would definitely be wearing the mask if they were in school now. To be honest, I probably would have homeschooled all 3 of them rather than send them to school during a pandemic, but I know some parents don't have that option. My husband and I made big sacrifices to homeschool our youngest child back then.

Don't people care about children anymore? Children are suffering in hospitals and dying from Covid. These "unmask our kids" people disgust me. After the pandemic ends, I will never forget who didn't care about the lives of others.

What about the teachers? They are supposed to breathe in Covid all day from the unmasked children?

[Klaralven]

27. Children should be masked, and I haven't seen a problem with any of my grandchildren about masking.

That said, masking of teachers is probably a lot more important than masking children, and teachers should wear high-quality, N95 masks.

First, masks are more effective at preventing an infectious person from spreading Covid than they are at preventing infection of a well mask-wearing person.

So consider the two cases that either an infected teacher comes to school or an infected student comes to school.

If it is the teacher who is infected, the teacher's lung capacity is larger than the student, the teacher is more active, and the volume of infected breath exhaled will be larger for an infected teacher than an infected student.

Furthermore, the teacher will be talking for more minutes during the day than the typical student. The vocal cords produce a fog of viral particles, which the mask can greatly reduce. So the teacher's mask will collect a much greater volume of viral particles produced by talking than will a students mask.

Finally, teachers, being adults, can wear their masks correctly and consistently. While students should do the same, they are generally less disciplined, making their mask wearing less effective.

More important than masks, 100% of teachers and eligible students should be vaccinated.

[Evan1980]

35. COVID has flipped the social contract vis a vis kids.

Older people are supposed to make sacrifices so that kids don’t have to. Throughout this pandemic though we’ve had kids make sacrifices to protect old people. First we made them stop going to school and playing with friends. Now we want them to wear masks in school and still limit their social interactions because we’re afraid they’ll give us cooties. Even after we’ve gotten vaccinated.

I can’t imagine being an 8-10 year old kid and all the adults in my life are scared I might kill them.

[mn9driver]

36. Another Covid related gem for the straw man books.

Children must make “sacrifices” so that old people don’t have to? How selfish of those oldsters to not want to die of something that can be somewhat mitigated by mask wear.

I’m sure that those kids will always be grateful to the deceased adults in their lives who protected them by not making them “sacrifice” and wear a mask, thereby spreading the virus and killing off parents, grandparents, teachers and coaches.

What a strange way to view the world and the relationship between children and the adults who raise them and educate them.

[Crunchy Frog]

37. How about children who bring it back from school

to their unvaxxed parents, and end up with one, or sometimes both of them dying.

I've read accounts from medical workers of children sobbing at their parent's death beds, blaming themselves, telling the parent that they're sorry.

They will have to live for the rest of their lives with the belief that they killed their parent.

That okay with you?

[Evan1980]

39. Their parents should be vaccinated.

But why would a kid believe they killed their parent, not the disease? If the parent died in accident taking them to baseball practice, is that the kid’s fault?

“Do this or your mom will die”. I’m just not down with guilt tripping kids this way. Especially little kids. I can only imagine the effect all this is going to have on childhood development.

[Zeitghost]

38. I doubt they have much real world effect

Drive by most High Schools at 3:00, the masks come off and the kids go about their normal social lives. The town I work in has off campus lunch and I run into mobs of teens downtown if I don't time my lunch right. The kids are all piled into cars together, making out, sharing cokes, etc. Maybe there is some benefit at the younger grades, but with HS kids I doubt it's doing much.

Mask effectiveness is highly dependent on wearing the right masks and doing it correctly and that just isn't going to happen regularly with kids, hell most adults, even those who claim to take COVID seriously don't wear them correctly. At this point I think it has unfortunately devolved in to virtue signaling and security theater with little real world protection. I watched a group of four young professionals going to lunch exit a car, place masks on in the parking lot on the way to the door (masks are not required in restaurants here in California), wore them at the table until food arrived, removed them to eat, placed them back on to exit the restaurant and then removed them before getting back in the car. I can't be certain, but demographics and the location I was in would indicate these were not right wing anti-maskers and incidents like this are not uncommon in my daily travels.