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[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:52 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[fescuerescue]

1. Same reason that Bush was never arrested post presidency.

Same reason that Nixon wasn't too.

[brooklynite]

8. So you're saying that the Democratic Attorney General intentionally will NOT indict him?

Last edited Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Present your evidence.

[Fullduplexxx]

46. Mueller handed him 10 counts of obstruction and nothing has been done about it

[fescuerescue]

56. It's your assertion. you present your evidence.

I'm just saying that there is a common thread of this country not prosecuting presidents.

But here is my evidence:

No President has ever been charged with crime. EVER.

[brooklynite]

78. Your statement implies choice and intent...

If I've misunderstood you, please feel free to correct me.

[Firestorm49]

70. Times change. Perhaps we need to re-evaluate

not prosecuting presidents. When someone as dangerous, treasonous, vile and corrupt as TFG comes along, maybe Congress should examine precedent and make a change to avoid putting our democracy at risk. If he broke the law, screw the double standard and prosecute him. By letting him off the hook, it drives a nail into what so many have fought and died for over our history as a nation.

I am furious that there is one set of rules for the wealthy and/ or politically connected, an the rest of us schmucks.

[fescuerescue]

85. Perhaps.

I know this. The day we start prosecuting Presidents, will be the day it becomes commonplace.

I'm not saying I'm against prosecuting Trump.

We just need to be ready for our guys to be prosecuted too, cause I guarantee it will happen.

[Johnny2X2X]

2. In the US

We do not arrest former presidents. We are not a Banana Republic...yet.

[kentuck]

6. Good answer.

But why can't his lawyers and accomplices be charged? We can't go after them either? Or family? What happened to no one is above the law? I suppose that puts a lie to that canard?

[LeftInTX]

24. Yes they can

They were arrested and charged, but Trump pardoned them

Evidence against his family may not be strong enough?

Keep in mind, "everyone" is not "everyone"

[getagrip_already]

36. look back to watergate.....

Even John Mitchel wasn't indicted until late 1973, and he wasn't tried until much later (1977?). Nixon had a pardon and really couldn't be touched.

Short answer (a) is it takes time, and a lot of the evidence was likely contaminated by tfg's goons. Or, (b), it could be that the DoJ wants to stay out of political crimes.

But NYS isn't part of the DoJ and they haven't pulled any indictments yet that we know of. But there is a lot of evidence they are moving to issue indictments at some point.

So yeah, it's frustrating given the overtly obvious pile of crimes they have to choose from. Let's hope garland hasn't just ruled it out.

[fierywoman]

37. This. Follow Glenn Kirschner to understand how long the process takes.

Last edited Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:54 PM - Edit history (1)

[yellowdogintexas]

73. +2 Subscribe to his podcast or his YouTube channel "Justice Matters"

He is so good.
If you watch / listen to Stephanie Miller he is on with her once a week.

I was a voter before Watergate, so I remember a lot. We thought they would never finish.

[fierywoman]

81. I was a voter before Watergate too.

[onecaliberal]

39. We do not arrest former presidents?

Even when they commit treason? Rape? Election fraud, tax evasion, tax fraud? Even when they kill 700,000 people? Even when they urge supporters to hang their own VP on the gallows they built along the national mall while committing sedition. Republicans are one all encompassing crime spree. The fact that Trump, Pence and 99%of their caucus isn’t locked up is the clearest proof yet that america is nothing more than an autocratic banana republic.

[llashram]

55. +++

[lagomorph777]

62. Exactly; banana republics let former presidents get away with murder.

We absolutely should not. Nobody is above the law.

[Tommymac]

79. Corporate Oligarchy is a better description IMO. The 1% Go unpunished ALL THE TIME

Why should TFG and his 1% family and supporters, or those who are pets of the 1%, be any different?

Money rules. The Constitution is paid lip service for them.

Been a thing since the 1880's.

Nothing new to see here.

[Fullduplexxx]

47. I was told no one is above the law

[lagomorph777]

59. Failing to arrest a war criminal or a mass murderer, just because they used the Presidency

to commit their crimes, is what makes us a banana republic.

[librechik]

71. yeah, a Bush banana.

[toasty]

60. So they're above the law? n/t

[overleft]

72. Does this mean he is above being responsible for his actions?

[Blues Heron]

3. seems like anything goes these days

war criminals walking around, traitors living large etc etc

[pwb]

4. Nobody pressed charges.

?

[BeckyDem]

5. Trump should be arrested and charged, as you say. That he is not

is due in part to the circle of reasons why Nixon was pardoned and Bush/Cheney were not held responsible for lying their asses off for a bullshit war. They're both war criminals yet free to rehabilitate themselves because that is a deep flaw/stain in American politics.

[getagrip_already]

53. bush/cheney was a different matter....

Their crimes were largely against humanity, but their actions were absolutely constitutional. Even if they broke federal law in pursuit of state policy objectives, it would be hard to prosecute them if they were just pursuing state objectives. If they were personally enriching themselves, it would be different.

[lees1975]

77. Follow the money trail from the treasury to Afganistan, Iraq and then back to Haliburton...

and Cheney's wallet is right there open at the end of it.

[uponit7771]

7. Without 100% slam dunk, open/shut case I'm GLAD he hasn't been arrested ... YET. Get the evidence

... and over communicate the reason he's detained and make sure the process is open.

The case needs to be like Shaunvin level obvious or we turn into those countries who are always jailing their former leaders.

GQP would do so quickly

[kentuck]

10. Do you truly believe they will someday have an open/shut case?

That they will have enough evidence to convict in a court of law?

I think he will kick the bucket before that ever happens.

[uponit7771]

13. Yes, Putin's Whore saying he's going to go down to the capital with the people is a start ...

... seeing he encouraged people to break the law and the permit for the area they had.

That's just an example ...

Or

Jail the people around him like they did Nixon ...

The cases need to be open and shut though, we don't want to turn into those countries that jail everyone

[onecaliberal]

41. IMO they already have evidence of election fraud that IS a slam dunk.

Listen to the phone calls.

[StarfishSaver]

49. What YOU think is a slam-dunk and what a prosecutor can get 12 jurors to agree is a crime beyond

a reasonable doubt are very different things.

[Demsrule86]

50. I personally don't think he will ever be convicted by any jury...they will all have

Trumper or two on them. Thus, go after his money which he loves more than his kids...and I have reservations about charging a president after he leaves office. They could do it to us too.

[brooklynite]

9. Serious answer: criminal prosecution takes longer than it does on LAW & ORDER.....

[kentuck]

11. Do you expect him to someday be charged and convicted?

Or will the charade simply continue?

I will believe it when I see it.

[brooklynite]

44. So the US Attorney General, appointed by President Biden, is engaged in a charade?

I believe there will be indictments if and when there is evidence of a crime that can be presented to a Jury ("we know he's guilty" doesn't count)

[Demsrule86]

51. Nope I doubt he will be charged ...he is out of office...and lets hope he lose most of his money.

[lagomorph777]

64. Wait...so he can't be charged while in office, and he can't be charged because he's out of office...

So, President equals King?

This criminal cannot be allowed to get away with genocide, election theft, jailing babies (crime against humanity), etc...

[whopis01]

68. No one said he can't be charged because he is out of office.

Many people doubt he will be charged. Saying that isn't the same as saying he can't be charged.

[tinrobot]

12. Be patient. For him to be arrsted, the case needs to be air tight.

There's a number of pending cases, but collecting that much evidence takes time.

[Greybnk48]

14. We arrested Haldeman, Erlichman, Colson, and the rest of Nixon's creeps,

why haven't we at least arrested the Trump cosa nostra? Miller, Bannon (on non-pardoned charges), Stone, Jr. , Eric, and Jar-Vanka. Rudy as well a his ancillary squad.

[quaint]

31. +++

[StarfishSaver]

52. Haldeman, Erlichman, Colson, etc. were not arrested within months of the crime

In fact, they weren't charged until two years after the break-in and weren't convicted until three years after the crimes were committed.

So, according the standard that you brought up, DOJ still has PLENTY of time.

[Grasswire2]

91. Colson doesn't count.

He pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice early on, to get the hound dogs off his back. Indicted in January 1974, pleaded in June. Those co-conspirators who went to trial were not convicted until January 1975.

It was strategic, and smart. He immediately began a PR blitz about his "redemption" via religion and went on to build an unparalleled conservative political power base.

Want to challenge me on this? I do have first-hand, personal knowledge.

And. Nixon, criminal as he was, and his henchmen never were involved in violent overthrow of the government of the United States or subversion of a legitimate presidential election. This time, the plotting for violent insurrection has not stopped. The perpetrators must be interrupted on their mission. Justice delayed is justice denied.

[Duppers]

63. Exactly!

T Y!

[Jose Garcia]

15. What specifically would you charge him with?

[kentuck]

17. There you go!

Obviously, they have nothing on him.

What has he done that one might consider a criminal offense?

[Hortensis]

16. Lessons in power are everywhere: Tthe various people and groups who have it,

how it's used, how struggles over it play out.

The ways in which principles are both be a critical source of power for us and huge limitation how how it's used.

Instead of asking why can't the world be the way it should be, it might be more useful to took at what happens and doesn't, including delays, in terms of power. Especially in this era of great, implacable clashes of powers when the stakes are enormous.

Then come tell me because I'm too lazy and worn down these days to try to do deep dives into the smoke to find whatever those there are saying.

[Tomconroy]

18. The DOJ is slowly building some conspiracy cases

Against the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and 3 percenters. You start at the bottom, get some people to cooperate and keep moving up the chain. Roger Stone was hand in glove with the Proud Boys. I:m not saying Trump will be charged but I haven't ruled it out yet. A search warrant issued last week mentioned the crime of 'seditious conspiracy'.
That's what Trump will get charged with if it happens.

[kentuck]

22. He could be found guilty on all charges...

...and then pardoned by the President of the United States.

And that could be the best solution to the entire seditious conspiracy charge. No prison time. Just a guilty verdict.

[fescuerescue]

67. Those idiots are all disposable

The difference is magnitude between prosecuting a proud boy and a President is off the scale.

[Tomconroy]

74. You don't understand how conspiracy cases are made. You

Start with little fish and see where it takes you.

[fescuerescue]

86. Nobody ever understand how deep the conspiracy goes.

do they?

[BeckyDem]

19. Trump Has Justified Breaking One of America's Most Sacred Norms

About the author: Paul Rosenzweig is a principal at Red Branch Consulting. Twenty years ago, he served as a senior counsel in the investigation of President Bill Clinton.

In the 240 years since America’s founding, no former president has been indicted for criminal conduct. This isn’t because they were angels—far from it. And it isn’t because post-term indictment is not legally allowed.

Instead, it is because Americans don’t like the idea of criminalizing politics. Both parties and the public see the prospect of post-term immunity as a guarantee that the country’s politics will remain civil and that power will transition peacefully from one party to the other. That is what drove President Gerald Ford to pardon Richard Nixon. And it’s one reason why the Office of the Independent Counsel decided not to indict former President Bill Clinton.

The presidency of Donald J. Trump has upended those calculations, and the resistance to post-term investigation may now come at too great a cost. When he leaves office, whether in January or four years later, the next administration or one of the states can and should investigate citizen Donald Trump—a former president whose legal status will be no different from that of any other American. The risk of politicization of such an investigation is far outweighed by the danger posed by failing to uphold our nation’s values. To protect future presidents from retributive investigations once they leave office, however, any investigation should be limited to Trump’s conduct before and after his presidency, not his behavior while he was president. If the findings of such an investigation justify it, prosecutors should indict the former president for violations of criminal law.

I come to this view reluctantly. The risks in the approach are both real and substantial. But after having served as a prosecutor in the Department of Justice, as a senior counsel in the Whitewater investigation of Clinton, and as a Bush appointee at the Department of Homeland Security, I’ve come to recognize that challenging, balanced judgments of the sort necessary today are sometimes forced on us by circumstances beyond our control. Hard choices do, sometimes, make bad law, but they cannot always be avoided. To decline to investigate Trump’s alleged criminality after he has left office is itself a choice—and it’s the wrong one.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/case-criminally-investigating-ex-president/616804/

[kentuck]

23. Some might say that he did not "criminalize politics"...

In so much as he "politicized criminality".

[FalloutShelter]

26. I think we have a BINGO.

[BeckyDem]

27. Maybe. but for me, the last straw was his call for the insurrection.

He should be tried for his crimes or we will continue to struggle as a democracy. The Republican Party is his enabler, I will never forget that they had the opportunity to be rid of him and did the opposite.

[kentuck]

30. I think that is the bottom line.

Do we throw the idea of justice out the window? That is a great challenge for our democracy. Whether or not we can still call ourselves a "democracy"? I do not see how it could be swept under the rug and forgotten about and still survive?

In my opinion, in the most compromised solution, he would be tried and convicted for "seditious conspiracy" and pardoned with no opportunity to ever run for office again. That would be best for our country, in my opinion.

[BeckyDem]

42. +1. I am afraid if we don't.

[David__77]

20. Because the US is a banana republic.

A place where a fascist white supremacist criminal roams free to a lead major political party simply because he once held presidency.

[Bettie]

21. Because he has never faced any real consequences for anything he's done

and he never will.

Such is the power of celebrity combined with being a "rich" (or appearing rich) white man.

[BeckyDem]

25. Can a sitting U.S. president face criminal charges?

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Constitution explains how a president can be removed from office for “high crimes and misdemeanors” by Congress using the impeachment process. But the Constitution is silent on whether a president can face criminal prosecution in court, and the U.S. Supreme Court has not directly addressed the question.

excerpt: The 1973 and 2000 memos are binding on Justice Department employees, including Mueller, according to many legal experts. Mueller was appointed in May 2017 by the department’s No. 2 official Rod Rosenstein.

But some lawyers have argued that the nation’s founders could have included a provision in the Constitution shielding the president from prosecution, but did not do so, suggesting an indictment would be permissible. According to this view, immunity for the president violates the fundamental principle that nobody is above the law.

Nixon himself in 1977 offered an opposite view when he told interviewer David Frost, “Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-indictment-explainer/can-a-sitting-u-s-president-face-criminal-charges-idUSKCN1QF1D3

We don't become a Banana Republic by holding elected presidents accountable to the law.

[ancianita]

82. New York's AG, having filed 15 felony charges against Trump Org, is heading in that direction.

When Trump Org's three principals plead "not guilty" as evidence of crime piles up, they inevitably point, without saying so, to the only principal that actually broke the law -- their boss.

There's no immunity in New York. His only hope is a Republican governor who'd confer a pardon, aka, the 'immunity of history.'

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-organization-charges-07-01-21/index.html

Overall, it's not over yet. Trump is not out of the woods. I'd bet he wasn't in NYC on 9/11 just for the ceremony of the day.

[BeckyDem]

84. +1. Fingers crossed and all that.

[tenderfoot]

28. Oh but don't you want the nation to heal? Let's put the past behind us.

That seems all that will happen.

[Ferrets are Cool]

29. I will believe it when I see it

Jr is still walking around a free man even though he is responsible for the murder of almost a million children, women and men in Iraq...all for oil and penis size.

[Septua]

32. It's the "intent" thingy...

Everybody knows what his intentions were but the legal pundits say what we know isn't that easy to prove in court.

If the Special/Select Committee manages to get Jordan, McCarthy, Gaetz et al. truthfully answering questions, the outcome may result in irrefutable 'intent'. But even then, someone will have to have the balls to charge him.

[Paladin]

33. I'm settling into the notion that he's going to get away with it.

Every goddamned bit of it. As is always the case, Democrats are too nice for their own good, and trump and his scumbag family will be the direct beneficiaries. I'm trying to adopt a care-free attitude about this, but I'm not there yet...

[Mad_Machine76]

34. Arresting high-level political figures isn't easy?

Have *any* Presidents ever been arrested, convicted, etc. for things that happened while in office? If anybody deserves to be the first, it's Trump to be sure and I know that we've all seen some s**t happen before our very eyes, but developing a criminal case against him is probably pretty difficult, especially in our current charged political system. That's about the only speculation I can offer.

[malaise]

35. I still think he will be

Let's get on with the Select Committee hearings.

[Septua]

38. His arrogance may well be his downfall

If he wasn't so self-serving, egocentric and arrogant, he'd have quit while he was legally ahead and just faded into history's shadows.

[Celerity]

40. it is unlikely he will ever be held to account

because, well I will let the lads from Emilia-Romagna explain

Raw Power - Raw Power

Label:
Meccano Records – TOLP 845
Format:
Vinyl, LP, Album
Country:
Italy
Released:
1984

[Beachnutt]

43. Here is a link

to all that is going on
https://www.justsecurity.org/75032/litigation-tracker-pending-criminal-and-civil-cases-against-donald-trump/

[ancianita]

88. Thank you.

The timeline of their progress shows that he could die before any of these civil procedures end in conviction. It's not looking good so far, and I consider myself a long game Democrat.

[Septua]

45. Difficult to believe...

..but some 'worst president' rankings don't put Trump at the top of the list. Some have him way down on the list in fact. Attempted coup d'état is apparently not a metric used in assessing one's rank.

[Fiendish Thingy]

54. Most prosecutors won't indict white collar crime unless they are sure of a conviction

His company has been indicted, and charges against him as an individual may yet be forthcoming- watch NY and Fulton county GA for the most likely sources of indictment.

John Mitchell didn’t go to prison for nearly two years after Nixon resigned, but he went.

[former9thward]

75. Mitchell and the other Watergate defendants were indicted while Nixon was still president.

So a little different situation. And if Trump's company is convicted the most it faces is a fine.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

57. because Banana Republic, we are one and nobody wants to admit it

Twice impeached and guilty both times. If the Repubs would have come to the table we as a country could have banned him from running but they were worried about the literal blowback of that decision.

DOJ/NYAG needs a little easy case. like Taxes, convict and house arrest and HUGE fine. They everybody sees he is not above the law other wise we may get a smarter version who causes even more trouble.

[bucolic_frolic]

58. Easy peasey lemon squeezy

The history is widely known. The collusions and cohorts too.

Either he has the dirt on everybody from the last 50+ years, or no one wants to risk sitting an unbiased jury and letting him off the hook. As for 2024, an indictment is as good as a conviction, but an acquittal risks reinstatement.

Or, back in reality, maybe they're just crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's. Can't be too safe, this one is a wriggler.

[Thomas Hurt]

61. The establishment does not want to set a precedent of indicting and trying former Presidents...

[Marius25]

65. The US will never arrest a current or former *president*

[jalan48]

66. Trump figured out pretty quickly once he was in office that he would be immune to prosecution from

the next administration. What ever happened to NY bringing him down once they got his taxes?

[Joinfortmill]

69. It's coming.

[Mr. Evil]

76. Because he's one of the ruling/ownership class.

They tend not to arrest/indict their own regardless of how detestable they may be. And TFG pushes the limits to be certain. The only time they go after one of their own is if one of them does something egregious against one of their own... Bernie Madoff.

Besides, they just might be waiting him out. One more bucket of KFC, 2-3 more Quarter Pounders...

[brooklynite]

80. BIden and Garland are part of the ruling/ownership class? Good to know.

[Mr. Evil]

93. I didn't say that.

Just ask yourself how many wealthy and/or well established republicans have spent any significant time in a courtroom facing charges for anything.

TFG could've been jailed for:
money laundering
election tampering/fraud
tax evasion
rape
sexual assault
theft (not paying for services rendered - thousands of times)
sedition
directly responsible for over 500,000 American death due to his lying and non-response to Covid-19.

I'm not attacking Biden and Garland but, he's still free and running amok at Maga-Lardo. I'm guessing Garland and the DoJ think that arresting that utter buffoon would be breaching some sort of unwritten protocol.

[brooklynite]

94. ...and those decisions are up to the AG who serves at the pleasure of the President..

I’m willing to accept that framing a pros caution is not an instantaneous to do des even if “else know he’s guilty”. You claim that this is an intentional decision by “the ruling class”; but the decision being made is by AG Garland, and President Biden is keeping him in office. So what am I getting wrong?

[onethatcares]

87. as a Bizzaro cartoon on my desk says,

"Welcome to America. Keeping the wealthy out of prison for over 200 years"

the cartoon shows a doorman with his hand on the Ellis Island First Class Entrance door knob.



Steal a loaf of bread to feed your family, go to the system and never get out of it. Cheat hundreds of thousands out of their savings, get a medal and speeches in your honor.

[Mr. Evil]

92. Yup.

That just about covers it.

[KS Toronado]

83. New York Grand Jury will indict him first!

For financial crimes, money laundering, tax return fraud, etc. IMHO

[Irish_Dem]

89. When he became president he got a get out of jail free card. For life.

He will put the country in great danger and get away with it.

[Grasswire2]

90. Hey! Look forward, not back! (/sarcasm)

Too many times, Republican crimes have gone unpunished.

And now the piper demands his pay.