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Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:25 PM

Progressive ideas/reforms can be abused and needing reform, too: Talking the Recall

As that history says, the Progressive Era initiatives/reforms were intended for "direct Democracy," ways to correct/sidestep legislatures and elections, to fix things done wrong via the institutional channels. Fine.

But what pops up in California (do the other states do it the same way?) is an abuse of the Recall - not just for incompetence, criminality, corruption - but for partisan overturning elections and/or personal ambition (am looking at you/AHhhnuld).

So can our governing systems be reformed, fixed, improved - keeping the good parts - without doing things by collapse and revolution, please?

*** And my personal peeve: Caucuses. They violate the Secret Ballot, suppress those introverts who don't want to blab in public, expose personal views to neighbors/possible co-workers/possible bosses/strangers. Where do those fit in the Progressive reforms?

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https://lao.ca.gov BallotAnalysis Initiative
In 1911, California voters approved the constitutional processes of initiative, referendum, and recall. Through these processes, voters can adopt a change in law (an initiative), disapprove a law passed by the Legislature (a referendum), or remove an elected official from office (a recall).Oct 8, 2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era
Progressive Era

.... Many Progressives sought to enable the citizenry to rule more directly and circumvent machines, bosses and professional politicians. The institution of the initiative and referendums made it possible to pass laws without the involvement of the legislature, while the recall allowed for the removal of corrupt or under-performing officials, and the direct primary let people democratically nominate candidates, avoiding the professionally dominated conventions. Thanks to the efforts of Oregon State Representative William S. U'Ren and his Direct Legislation League, voters in Oregon overwhelmingly approved a ballot measure in 1902 that created the initiative and referendum processes for citizens to directly introduce or approve proposed laws or amendments to the state constitution, making Oregon the first state to adopt such a system. U'Ren also helped in the passage of an amendment in 1908 that gave voters power to recall elected officials, and would go on to establish, at the state level, popular election of U.S. Senators and the first presidential primary in the United States. In 1911, California governor Hiram Johnson established the Oregon System of "Initiative, Referendum, and Recall" in his state, viewing them as good influences for citizen participation against the historic influence of large corporations on state lawmakers.[105] These Progressive reforms were soon replicated in other states, including Idaho, Washington, and Wisconsin, and today roughly half of U.S. states have initiative, referendum and recall provisions in their state constitutions.[106] ....

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:29 PM

1. in CA petition signature gatherers are paid per signature. that means big $ must be available for

initiative sponsors. signature gathering is a refined art as each person tries to get people to sign the petitions that pay the most. these gatherers dont give a crap about the content. they'd sell their own mothers into death camps if the pay per signature was high enuff. and they lie through their various teeth as well.

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:36 PM

2. Interesting. So is anybody with governmental influence and power interested in fixing things?

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Response to UTUSN (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:44 PM

3. (re: your personal pet peeve-- the idea of a caucus has always bugged the hell out of me.

for years i thought maybe it was because i just didn't understand it. nope. i understand it as much as i ever will and i think it's fucking bizarre and for the same reasons you stated)

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Response to orleans (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:46 PM

4. Thank you. Adding the part about having to vote TWICE - by ballot and then by caucus

with working people needing to go back for the evening meeting for the vote that "counts".






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