Pelosi Caves; Machin Gets His Way

[berni_mccoy]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/pelosi-says-biden-s-infrastructure-bill-cannot-wait-social-safety-n1280215

Pelosi says Biden's infrastructure bill can't wait for social safety net bill

WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told Democrats on Monday that passage of the $550 billion infrastructure bill must not wait for President Joe Biden's multitrillion-dollar safety net bill, saying the larger package is not yet ready for a vote.

In a private caucus meeting, Pelosi, D-Calif., said the party must "make difficult choices," because the dynamics have changed and Democrats have not yet agreed to a spending level, according to a source familiar with the meeting.

Say goodbye to the second bill.

[Bettie]

1. And we will not see a reconciliation bill

the only question remaining is whether Sinema and Manchin have decided to cause a government shut down or if they will help to stop that.

[Calista241]

90. The Repubs have stated they'll vote to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling if Dems

abandon the reconciliation bill. That's probably what will happen.

[TheRealNorth]

121. But you are trusting Republicans to keep their word.

Hostage takers will take more hostages if they are rewarded for it.

[Walleye]

2. Oh ye of little faith.

[brush]

3. Your figure on the bill is way off. It's over a trillion...

twice the 550B uou cited. And I wouldn't call it caving. It's being pragmatic. Biden needs a victory now, what with his poll numbers down because of the delta covid spikes and fallout from the Afghanistan withdrawal.

She and Schumer will get the Bill Back Better bill done once they get Manchin and Simema in line. It'll happen. Too much has been invested in it to gibe up.

[berni_mccoy]

4. It's not going to happen. Manchin and Sinema are not acting in good faith.

Their excuses for not supporting the bill are pretzel twisting in 10 dimensions.

[brush]

5. That's your opinion.

[berni_mccoy]

8. This goes against everything Biden, Pelosi and Schumer were saying

Having the vote on the bipartisan bill this week means they waste one of the very few reconciliation attempts they have. They failed to honor their commitment to Biden’s agenda and to the CPC. It’s not going to happen. I like your enthusiasm though.

[brush]

13. With friends like you, who needs enemies. The 3.5 figure...

may come down but the larger bill will pass. Manchin and Sinema have said they won't back the 3.5T figure, not that they won't back anything.

Get on board.

[PortTack]

54. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[berni_mccoy]

80. Personal attacks are all you have. Got it

[brush]

141. Your pessimism on the Dem agenda is off-putting. During negotiations...

parties take stances to start from in order to get more suitable numbers. You must know this...one side comes down, the other side comes up and eventually you meet on a number both sides can live with.

Sinema and Manchin have said no to 3.5 trillion but not no to a lesser figure. Biden and Schumer can be very persuasive. Never say no until it's over.

[berni_mccoy]

146. It's not pessimism. It's reality.

[brush]

147. You say that yet negotiations are still going on.

Here's a Yogism for you (the Yankee great Yogi Berra)..."It ain't over 'til it's over."

[berni_mccoy]

148. Tell you what,

We get a 3.5 Trillion dollar bill passed through reconciliation along with the first bill and I will admit I was wrong.

We both know none of that is going to happen though.

[brush]

149. I keep saying the 3.5T figure is a starting point which will likely change in...

negotiations. It's likely to be lower to get Manchin and Sinema on board.
One side comes down, the other comes up and a figure somewhere in the middle is reached.

There will be a reconciliation bill passed but not at 3.5T. The sausage is still being hashed out in pre-conference discussions.

[Demsrule86]

89. This isn't a mystery or an attack on progressives...the votes are not there. You have to

be able to pass a bill in Congress. This is politics. It is how it has always worked. And without compromise, we won't be able to govern.

[berni_mccoy]

97. Two votes aren't there. And they never will be.

[Bettie]

99. And isn't it odd that for all the screaming about progressives

it is the so-called moderates who are gumming up the works?

[berni_mccoy]

102. Agreed

[Demsrule86]

113. That depends on your point of view. The bill has passed and is ready to go. Holding it hostage to

the reconciliation bill was never a good idea. We need both. And the reconciliation bill is going to have to change...in order to pass Congress...IE compromise. But we need to do it...we get what we can and come back for more. I think some of the policies in that bill like the ACA will wake up Americans who will support the policy and will demand that it be made permanent.

[Demsrule86]

100. That is true to a point. The reconciliation bill will not pass as it stands now. We will have to

compromise. I think we can come up with a decent bill in the end if we work together and don't let as they say the 'perfect be the enemy of the good'...But we are talking about the House at the moment. The votes are not there either for the reconciliation bill.

[berni_mccoy]

103. I know you think it's still going to happen

Reality says otherwise. Manchin is a puppet for McConnell

[Bettie]

108. We've been to this show before and

we all know how it ends.

[Demsrule86]

138. I think something will pass. They are going to put the debt ceiling stuff in it...likely no one will

like it but everyone will have to vote for it.

[TheRealNorth]

122. The CPC gave the conditions

This is not a case of the CPC failing to compromise. This is a demand for unconditional surrender.

[doc03]

9. I agree with you those two Senators are going

to lose the election for us in 2022.

[PortTack]

55. Sinema has gotten a vote of no confidence from the AZ Dems!! She's toast

[TheRealNorth]

126. at this point, they are only useful for allowing judges to advance in the Senate

If it weren't for that, I would say kick them out.

[brush]

15. They've said they won't support the 3.5T figure.

Are you unaware of how negotiations go? That figure will probably come down but the Bill Back Better bill will pass.

[berni_mccoy]

17. They also said it's too socialistic after being asked what $ they'd support

They won’t say. Which means they aren’t supporting anything in the bill.

If they were going to support it, Pelosi wouldn’t be caving right now.

[brush]

20. We'll see. In negotiations you take stances to bargain...

to get a more suitable figure. I know you know this...one side comes down, the other side comes up.

Nothing is carved in stone yet.

[Walleye]

81. Exactly, and we expect Democrats to negotiate in good faith,as opposed to Republicans who lie

[FBaggins]

7. It isn't actually "way off"

The infrastructure bill redirects hundreds of billions of dollars that Congress had already approved. The new spending associated with the bill is quite close to that $550B figure.

[brush]

10. So that's why it's called the 1.1T infrastructure biparisan bill?

Your optimism about Dem leadership's ability to get things done is breathtaking.

[FBaggins]

12. Is that in the bill title somewhere?

Who cares what some people are calling it?

From the White House fact sheet on the bill:

In total, the deal includes $550 billion in new federal investment in America’s infrastructure.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/07/28/fact-sheet-historic-bipartisan-infrastructure-deal/

Perhaps you should take your argument up with them?

[WHITT]

35. Only

$550b is NEW money. The rest was already canned.

[Celerity]

112. the bi-partisan bill has only $550 billion on new spend, the other $650 billion is simply re-upping

pre-existing programmes (mostly transportation related). Biden's proposals (a total of $2.6 trillion in new spend and tax credits) were shredded by almost 80%, down to $550 billion.

The Infrastructure Plan: What’s In and What’s Out (it's brutal)

Biden's original plan:






What was left after they took a 2 trillion USD hatchet to it




They already chopped almost EIGHTY percent of actual new spending out of the hard infrastructure bill

and now Manchin wants to chop another almost 60 to 70% out of the even bigger bill, one that needs ZERO Rethugs votes to pass. PLUS Manchin is now talking about pushing the reconciliation bill off until 2022.


The total new spending on Biden's original 2 bill proposals (hard and human) was $6.1 trillion.

IF Manchin and Sinema stick to their guns and chop out $2 trillion to $2.5 trillion of of the reconciliation bill, then you are looking at a total new spend for both bills of only $1.55 trillion to $2.05 trillion instead of $6.1 trillion.

That is a truly massive 2/3rds to 3/4ers total reduction in new spending, and the vast majority will be from the parts the largest single Democratic caucus in the House (the 96 person-strong Progressive Caucus) all desperately wanted, especially things to address climate change and to help working class Americans. Pete DeFazio, the Chair of the House Transportation Committee has been very, very unhappy for ages about what the bi-partisan Senators did.

[Orrex]

72. Yeah, that's a big comfort

We can take further comfort from the powder that we continue to keep so marvelously dry.

[Demsrule86]

98. We don't have the votes. And at the end of the day, it is what it is.

[Orrex]

101. If only we controlled both houses of Congress and the White House

Can’t wait to see the campaign slogans for the 2022 midterms.

“Vote for us again and this time we promise to do something about anything. Honest!”

[StarfishSaver]

127. Don't hold your breath for those ads because they would be dumb.

You probably will see a lot of smart messages along the lines of: "Send us more Democrats so that we can actually control the Senate and House, overcome Republican obstructionism, and deliver Biden's agenda to the American people."

[gab13by13]

6. Minority rule,

not what our founders intended.

[Lovie777]

11. No, the second bill will happen ....

[doc03]

14. If the Republicans had control of the Congress and

had an infrastructure bill there would be enough Democrats to get it passed. Democrats won't blow up the filibuster for fear Republicans could get Congress again.
If Democrats don't McConnel will blow it up anyway.
He has already said he won't let Biden appoint anyone to the SCOTUS.

[Demsrule86]

38. The Republicans didn't pass anything except a tax cut. They accomplished nothing.

They dearly wanted to get rid of the ACA...but couldn't. And consider that Manchin voted for the ACA or it would be gone. A GOP type from WVA would have voted to kill the ACA.

[Walleye]

85. Absolutely. We need to shout that a little louder.one thing we can count on is the GOP double cross

[StarfishSaver]

16. No, Pelosi didn't cave

[berni_mccoy]

18. Suuuuure all that talk about passing both together

Was not what they were going for. 20 dimensional chess…

Fucking ridiculous.

[StarfishSaver]

21. Changing strategy/course in response to circumstances is not "caving"

But if you're among those who love finding ways to bash Speaker Pelosi, any port in a storm will do ...

[berni_mccoy]

23. Those "circumstances" are an unexpected betrayal

By two senators who should be strong armed into holding the line.

[FBaggins]

24. Both "cave" and "betrayal" go way too far

This was entirely predictable back in January. Excessive hyperbole is also to be expected... but that doesn't mean that it isn't disconnected from reality.

[berni_mccoy]

25. If it was this predictable, then why did they attempt it?

We’re they just blowing smoke up the CPC’s ass? If so, we will get annihilated in the mid terms

[FBaggins]

32. Perhaps you're brand new to this game?

Never watched politics before?

Making sausage gets messy.

[berni_mccoy]

34. Perhaps you are.

[MineralMan]

44. Who are your two Senators?

It's difficult to discuss politics in WV without knowing your point of reference.

For example, my Senators are Amy Klobuchar and Tina Smith. Neither could get elected in West Virginia or Arizona. And Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema could not get elected here in Minnesota.

So, do tell. Who are your Senators?

[berni_mccoy]

48. That's a sad excuse for failure

[MineralMan]

49. You did not answer my question, nor did you respond

in any meaningful way to what I wrote.

Now, I can imagine why you might not want to tell us who your Senators are. I cannot understand, though, why you cannot understand the nature of elections and how different people are needed to run in different states.

So, I guess we aren't going to find out who your Senators are. Are you not proud of them for getting elected in whatever state you live? Is that it?

[berni_mccoy]

105. I don't answer to you

And your point is not valid

[MineralMan]

119. And you don't have to. I can't do anything but ask.

Your silence is your answer. That's fine.

[dsc]

92. I think either one could be elected in AZ

remember Biden won there, as did both Sinema and Kelly. Neither of your senators are the 2nd coming of Sanders.

[StarfishSaver]

26. How is the Speaker of the House supposed to "strong arm" two Senators into "holding the line"?

In fact, how exactly is the Senate Democratic Leader supposed to do that?

Specifically ("Get tougher... Hold their feet to the fire" aren't actual things)

[MineralMan]

42. How do you "strong arm" any Senator?

They're elected for 6-year terms. Any Senator who has been elected for more than one term understands his or her constituency very, very well.

You can, perhaps, bargain with senators by promising to support bills they want passed, but you cannot bully a US Senator into voting for anything. Bernie Sanders, for example, has voted oddly any number of times, as you may remember.

Clearly, you have a limited understanding of how things work in the Senate.

[lagomorph777]

63. Pork, bribes, Kompromat, whatever it takes.

I really don't give a crap anymore. These blue dogs have to be neutered/spayed.

[MineralMan]

70. Who are your Senators?

Do tell...

[lagomorph777]

71. Tim Kaine and Mark Warner

Not exactly liberal firebrands, but decent people.

[MineralMan]

73. Thanks. No doubt they will vote with the caucus and

Chuck Schumer. Good.

[lagomorph777]

78. Yup!

[PortTack]

60. Agree...stop bashing our dem leaders! They need our support not negative words

[Cha]

142. Exactly.. any port in the storm to use

hyperbolic negative words to describe Leader Nancy Pelosi.

It never works.. Nancy just keeps doing her brilliant job.

TY!

[bdamomma]

57. I don't think she

"caved" either. Rachel did an excellent story on Speaker Pelosi last night.

[Hortensis]

19. Ten house members want to pare the reconciliation bill down.

Last term we had very large house majority and would have passed it easily.

But, because we lost a whole bunch of seats last November, that's changed. (Everyone will remember how
voters were alarmed by terms like "defunding police" and "socialism" being associated with the Democratic Party.)

Manchin could drop dead and our magnificently progressive Biden plan to fix our nation would still be in jeopardy.

[FBaggins]

28. I don't think that it's even necessarily that

At least a couple of them have come around in recent days.

I think their biggest priority is to not be used as a tool to pressure senate moderates only to see the final bill scaled way back. They don't want to cast a vote that doesn't actually result in a passed bill, but which can be used against them in races next year.

[Calista241]

93. THey came around because Manchin and Sinema were envisioning a 1.2t reconciliation bill.

The same size as the bipartisan bill. But there's legit questions whether House Progressives and / or Bernie would support a reconciliation bill that small.

[FBaggins]

107. Manchin and Sinema aren't envisioning the same thing as each other.

For instance - Sinema appears to back the entire climate portion of the current design... while Manchin wants to protect his coal interests/friends.

[Hortensis]

106. True as you say for one of their motivations. And they and the senators

are also using each other to add strength to positions they want to take.

[Demsrule86]

39. Elections have consequences. Clyburn has said that 'defund the police' and other similar

messages caused this. He has forgotten about politics than most people ever learn. I take him at his word. We need bigger majorities. And they won't come from safe blue districts but from purple and red districts.

[TheRealNorth]

124. Here in the Twin Cities, we have a police force in Minneapolis that is out of control ...

They were shooting people with rubber bullets for the lol's. Reform is needed, and if the only way to do that is replacing the existing police force with a Department of Public Safety (which at this point seems to be the only way), then that is what needs to be done.

[Demsrule86]

135. There is no doubt reform is needed but the defund the police slogan was a disaster for us in the

House and I think we might have done better in the Senate too.

[TheRealNorth]

140. How many George Floyd's will it take...

Before it is politically convenient for moderates to do something. Give me a number of how many George Floyd's and Philandro Castilles have to die, so I will know not to bother you again because it's not politically convenient to take REAL action.

The issue is that moderates act like scared children and accept the Republican framing of the issue. The fact that some (not all) on the left have used the term "defund" is because all other attempts at reform have been utter failures. I think the unfortunate reality is that there are some PD's have to be destroyed in order to be rebuilt, because there is no other way to get rid of the "bad apples".

[NewsCenter28]

144. Except the key to those bigger majorities

is the American Families/American Jobs Plan. Certainly not this concoction of Moscow Mitch and his ole' buddy, "I love coal" Joe M.

[bdamomma]

59. can

you add McConnell to your drop dead list too.

[Hortensis]

111. :) Inked in and coffee stained years ago. Sinema, whose latest fundraiser

with opponents of the reconciliation bill is this afternoon, was added only a month or so ago after opposing allowing Medicare to negotiate drug costs erased any remaining hopes. She must be planning to use McConnell's method of getting reelected -- use megadonor money to swamp opponents with mud until voters can't even see them.

[Shanti Shanti Shanti]

22. LOL, she didn't cave, the votes weren't there, thats just reality, no magic wands to get your way

[StarfishSaver]

30. It's too bad that none of the people accusing Speaker Pelosi of "caving"

have managed to get themselves elected Speaker - because, boy, if they had, they sure would do this differently and, unlike her, they would get it RIGHT!

[panader0]

27. "The sky is falling! Abandon all hope. True sailing is dead!"

Pelosi is not caving. She's the best person to have in her position right now.

[getagrip_already]

29. Manchin gets shite.... pelosi doesn't care what he says or wants......

She didn't bring the bill to a vote because there are ten some odd "moderate" dems who won't vote for it in its current form.

The bill wasn't killed, just postponed. It will get a few alterations and the house will pass it. All a part of the process.

Pelosi didn't want to vote on infrastructure until the house passed the stimulus package. It was a negotiating tactic she has now dropped. Infrastructure will pass and then she will do what needs to be done on the other bill.

People get all upset over the process that has always worked just this way.

[Fiendish Thingy]

83. Actually the moderate want to pass the bipartisan bill now to kill the reconciliation bill

It’s the CPC that won’t vote for the bipartisan bill before the reconciliation bill passes.

BTW, the bipartisan bill has already passed the senate, so there won’t be any modifications in the house. The question is t over the bill “in its present form”, the question is over the timing/sequence of the votes.

[Demsrule86]

96. That is not true. It has never been true. Moderates know the votes are not there to pass the

reconciliation bill as written and fear that McConnell will succeed in killing both bills...and let me just say the moderates won the majorities for us...thus they have a right to have some say in both bills. They are not in deep blue districts and have to be careful with reelection issues. Until progressives can compete in red/purple states and or districts, compromise will be necessary.

I am a progressive. I love the reconciliation bill. However, see don't have the votes. Our side can't win a majority without moderates. And they will have their say in terms of legislation. And why shouldn't they- to be fair? Maybe we need to get out and win hearts and minds so more folks like us can win in more states and we can attain a progressive majority. But that will take time.

Now I want the infrastructure bill passed. It has good stuff in it. And we need it if we are going to win the midterms in terms of the House and the Senate. I also want to work on passing a reconciliation bill that should include the debt ceiling crap...we will all have to compromise. That is how it works.

[Fiendish Thingy]

114. The moderates in Gottheimer's gang who want to kill reconciliation are mostly in safe seats

The “moderates who won the majorities for us” in swing districts have had the courage to support the two track process along with the progressives, and are not part of Gottheimer’s Sabotage Squad of just 9 or 10 saboteurs in safe districts who take in tons of donations from corporations opposed to Biden’s BBB plan.

McConnell can’t kill either bill- it’s out of his hands.

The moderates don’t “know the votes aren’t there to pass the reconciliation bill as written” because the damn bill hasnt been written yet, only the budget targets have been established. The reconciliation bill is currently being “pre-conferenced” (Jayapal’s term) between the house and senate committees, so that the versions voted on by house and senate match exactly, and so the support of Manchin and Sinema is known before the vote. Once this process is done, after some convoluted procedural moves to get each segment out of committee, then the bill will come to the floor of the senate for a vote. Only Manchin or Sinema can obstruct this process, by taking a public stand on the floor of the senate to block the bill from moving forward.

I, for one, am thankful for the principled conviction of Jayapal and the CPC, as well as the courage of the moderate reps in true swing districts, who put the good of the country and passage of Biden’s agenda above their re-election hopes.

[Demsrule86]

115. Maybe...but there is no reason not to pass the infrastructure bill and the reconciliation bill could

take quite a while. I don't believe in holding bills hostage...the infrastructure bill is a win for the American people. There is good stuff in this bill. This is the first bi-partisan bill in more than a decade...it is a BFD. With a 50 50 majority, we are lucky to get it...I don't know if the reconciliation bill will pass -but compromise will be a must. I hope it does pass. But I see no reason to wait.

[Fiendish Thingy]

125. The *only* reason to pass the bipartisan bill first is to KILL reconciliation

Your position is akin to if the police hostage negotiator said “I don’t GAF, I’ve got my pension, go ahead and shoot the hostage”.

Passing the bipartisan bill now guarantees the death of reconciliation.

Thank goodness we have a strong principled CPC to counter the craven, bought and paid for Gottheimer Gang.

[Demsrule86]

134. There are two separate bills. I do not believe the infrastructure bill will kill anything.

It needs to be passed and if the votes are there and I see Biden is meeting with both Sinema and Manchin then it will pass. I do not believe moderates will vote against the bill after we have a final version which we don't right now. They are right...the bill is not even written. There is no reason to wait on infrastructure. I hope we get both bills but there should be no hostage-taking of bills in Congress.

[NurseJackie]

31. No she didn't.

[Demsrule86]

33. I think we will get the second bill but less money...I am very relieved we will get

the bill passed...something done. And we should concentrate on winning the midterms...we need a larger majority. Why anyone thinks a 5050 majority with the VP breaking the tie is a workable majority is beyond my understanding. We get what we can and come back for more. It is how politics works.

[MineralMan]

36. Nobody "Caved." You are mistaking strategy for surrender.

What might pass in the House might not in the Senate. We Democrats are not in a position of having massive strength. We have no excess votes to spare, so we're stuck with trying to find a way to get things done. That generally means backing away a little from the ideal to get the possible.

I'm pretty sure you do not have any personal experience as a legislator nor as a leader of legislators. If you did, you would understand the situation better.

However, I am glad you did not use the same epithet with Speaker Pelosi that you used on Manchin yesterday.

[MichMan]

47. What is the strategy of making frequent statements in the press that you later have to go back on?

First the Speaker said a few weeks ago that the House would NOT take up the BIF unless the Reconciliation Bill passed at the same time. Repeated adamantly several times that the two were linked together.

Now that is gone, and now they are planning a separate vote on the BIF that was promised to be Monday Sept 27 per a deadline. That date passed, and it is now said to be this Thursday. (maybe)

She was adamant that 3.5 trillion was the right amount and they were not interested in reducing it. Now we are told that $3.5 trillion is just a number and to expect it to be smaller.

I get that there are a lot of negotiations and things can change, but why keep making firm statements about what you are going to do just to turn around and reverse them? It would have been better to let the process work out before making promises and deadlines that couldn't be kept.

[getagrip_already]

51. because it works until it doesn't.......

Politics is not a game to be played meekly. It's not all kumbaya.

It's even worse for a leader or a whip.

Look at the mistakes obama made. For a while, he was essentially negotiating with himself, whittling down his proposals with no concessions from the other side just to be realistic. That was a rookie mistake pelosi doesn't make.

I know people don't like the process. But we will eventually get a bill passed. But we will zero gop votes to do it, so it is an internal battle.

So yeah, she will draw a battle line and fight to hold it, but won't die on some hill just to make some point. It's what leaders do.

[MineralMan]

66. Well, legislative leaders often make such statements, but

they are always ready to adjust if things do not work as they hope. Nancy Pelosi is very good at what she does, but she is not a miracle worker.

See, the thing is that it is always good to take a strong position that represents the ideal situation. However, it is even better to be able to adjust that expectation if an adjustment is needed.

Some people are willing to throw everything out if they cannot get everything they want exactly as they want it. In politics that just ends up accomplishing nothing at all. In one's personal life, it leads to failed businesses and other personal relationships.

Everything is flexible until the bills pass. That's how legislative action works. Expecting the ideal to always be enacted is just foolish. Such at thing almost never happens. We wanted universal health care. We got the ACA. The first was the ideal. The second was what was possible at the time. Had we not gotten either, we'd be screwed. Adjustments are always required in our expectations if our expectations are for the ideal thing to take place.

[joetheman]

37. W.VA must be bombarded with truth flyers and Biden ads where ever possible. nt

[Demsrule86]

40. WVA is a red state...crimson...it is a miracle that Manchin has survived. And when he is gone, there

won't be another Democratic Senator for decades. No flyer or truth bombs will work in that state.

[NurseJackie]

53. Thank you for sharing your voice of REASON!!

[Demsrule86]

58. You too! One poster actually said it would be better if Manchin was a Republican which would put

McConnell in charge of the Senate. Politics is the art of the possible.

[dsc]

110. at some point we would be better of at least politically if McConnell were in charge

consider the debt ceiling. If the Senate were in GOP hands then he couldn't pull this crap. At some point our having to take blame will overtake the benefit of us having nominal control of the Senate.

[Demsrule86]

116. That is just not true. And I suppose SCOTUS doesn't matter...it is never a good idea for the GOP to

be in control.

[dsc]

118. appointments is the one place where it matters alot

but Breyer is being pig headed so we apparently won't be getting any SCOTUS appointments anyway. At some point we will be blamed for not getting stuff done. The solution is to ditch the filibuster, but since that apparently can't happen, then we are stuck in a horrible dynamic of having enough power to be blamed but not enough to actually avoid blame.

[Demsrule86]

120. Breyer needs to be persuaded to retire IMHO. I fear for our country if McConnell is in charge of

anything in 2024. It is always better to be in the majority. And the infrastructure bill is worth passing on its own merits. The idea that you win when you lose is foolish. And the price that GOP would demand to pass debt ceiling increase if they are in power would be watering down longstanding Democratic policies like Medicare, Medicaid, and even the ACA.

[Demsrule86]

117. I would add that adding to our majority rather than caving to the Republicans would make more sense

[StarfishSaver]

128. You really believe that?

Wow.

[dsc]

130. We haven't hit that point yet

but if we wind up having a default of the debt on entirely our hands, we won't win another majority for decades.

[StarfishSaver]

132. I don't think that will happen

A default would financially devastate too many major Republican campaign donors, among others whose water McConnell and his team carry.

[MineralMan]

41. To what end, exactly?

That state elected Joe Manchin. If they hadn't, they've have elected a Republican. Manchin is who he is. He got elected by being who he is. Campaign ads for Biden won't change that, and I don't have any idea what you mean by "truth flyers." There's no election coming soon that would change anything.

[Demsrule86]

43. And you know this can all be traced back to the message voters who stabbed Obama in the

back in 10 and 14...leading to a takeover of states by the GOP and the loss of the House -also the Senate so that we never really were able to do much of anything including confirming a SCOTUS pick.

You would think we as a party would have crawled across broken glass in order to make sure Hillary won with a SCOTUS nominee at risk...however the 'but her email crowd' assured us that the courts didn't really matter and refused to vote for the only candidate who could stop the GOP madness. We need to go all in to increase our majority. You want Progressive policy, give Biden a bigger majority in 22 and 24.

[MineralMan]

46. But, then there would be nothing to complain about.

[StarfishSaver]

56. And there it is, in a nutshell

[Demsrule86]

64. haha, Good point!

[StarfishSaver]

52. Exactly!

They sure showed THEM, didn't they?

[PortTack]

65. ++++++ I can't count the number of times I posted during the '16 campaign remember SCOTUS

[Demsrule86]

74. I used it for GOTV...we have a script but I was so concerned I pushed that issue...it would

be a different world if Al Gore and Hillary Clinton had won. If we had President Obama's back and had voted in the midterms and saved the House and the Senate...but this I want it now or I am sitting home or voting for a fucking Green will be the ruination of the Democratic Party and the Republic.

[NurseJackie]

67. It's always the same ones. The "but-her-emails" crowd and the "Dems-are-Coastal-Elites" crowd...

It's always the same ones. The "but-her-emails" crowd and the "Dems-are-Coastal-Elites" crowd... and when not attacking our party's stalwart leaders, they're busy attacking the Democratic party itself.

Stop me if you've heard these smears and LIES before: "Democrats are weak" ... "No difference between the parties" ... "Democrats are corrupt" ... "Democrats are ideologically bankrupt" ... "Democrats are war-mongers" ... "Democrats are the party-of-the-elite" ... "Democrats are do-nothings".

The thing is... people who repeat those lies and insults and smears don't achieve the goal of "purity" that they desire. Instead, the only thing they accomplish is to create division and suspicion. They foment distrust and resentment.

What useful purpose does it serve? It's just another example of how people are oddly willing to do and say things that create an atmosphere of fear and hopelessness and negativity. Negativity generates apathy. Apathy discourages voter turnout. Low voter turnout gives Republicans a chance to steal the elections.

[Demsrule86]

75. I believe such folks encourage low voter turnout...you hold our leaders feet to the fire and we

all get burned. How about the Democrats are too nice? Right...which is another way of calling them weak.

[NurseJackie]

84. I'm sick of it! And then after the sabotage and kneecapping is complete...

... those who hate the Democratic party the most will be the ones who BOAST and BRAG the loudest with their "told-ya-so" taunts. There are plenty that I encounter online on a daily basis, but one of the most obnoxious ones is Michael Moore.

I believe such folks encourage low voter turnout...

Yes, they do. These are the ones who seek to intentionally damage the Democratic party with their toxic rhetoric. It's the same everywhere you look... from "Our Revolution" to "Justice Democrats" to "Brand New Congress" to "The People's Party" to "The Forward Party"... all toxic, all dangerous, all divisive. None of them are friends of Democrats, or of Democrat leadership.

[Demsrule86]

87. I despise Michael Moore, Justice Democrats, Greens, the People's Party(Nina Turner) and

all the rest. Sinema was a member of the Green Party before running as a Democrat which is kind of amusing if you think about it.

[NurseJackie]

94. Her tenure is limited. Obsessing over her is a waste of time... I don't know why people bother.

That's why I frequently comment to others and remind them that it's better to work on what we CAN do rather than remaining motionless and griping about all that we can't do.

[Demsrule86]

104. I agree...can't see her running again. My fear that we run a Democrat who is to far left to win this

purple/ red seat.

[mcar]

131. Now they are the same ones who are complaining

about our Democratic leaders having trouble getting things passed. We could have had President HRC and 3 liberal SCOTUS justices but no - "I'm voting my conscience," and "SCOTUS isn't important" took priority for some so-called progressives.

As President Obama often said "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." It is a mature outlook toward governance. But the purity crowd will run Democrats down until they succeed, again, in depressing the Democratic vote.

Makes me so angry.

[mcar]

129. This +1000!

[NewsCenter28]

145. We took the opposite messages from 2010 to 2014

I believe we lost those 2 elections because the Obama administration was too moderate. A bolder progressive agenda in 2009/10 when we had a safe 60 votes in the senate, along with a better campaign in the MA special senate election in January 2010, probably would have prevented the tea party wave and Speaker Boehner.

[Hotler]

45. Fuck it.................. Nothing to see here folks, move along. nt

[Patton French]

50. And there it is..

..this may put both at risk.

[TheRealNorth]

61. I see no reason why we should approve a 1 trillion dollar give away...

To the construction industry, without getting an equal amount of what the progressive caucas wants. The only reasons Republicans are okay with the1 trillion is because th money is going to "their" guys.

[Demsrule86]

76. Seriously, it has been posted here. That bill has good things in it...and we need roads and

bridges...it also will stimulate the economy. We need to get something...this attitude is why we lose when most voters agree with us on a variety of issues. I suggest you read what is in the bill.

[sarisataka]

62. "Democrats in disarray...

...again"

[Demsrule86]

79. Democrats are not in disarray...I have said for a while now the reconciliation bill was in trouble.

The amount of spending will have to be lowered and some programs eliminated...that is a fact and even then, it will be a tough sell. We have a bare majority and some want to go after policy that is unattainable with our small majority. Get what you can. Show folks, we can be bipartisan and get things done...win the midterms, and come back for more. We may be able to pass the reconciliation bill after we reach a compromise. I hope so. Politics is the art of compromise.

[NewsCenter28]

143. Love ya Demsrule86 otherwise

But aren't you tired of eating shit sandwiches? There's no reason why charlatan corrupt useless assholes like Sinema and Manchin should be rewarded.

Also, this bill was written by Mitch McConnell. If we just get this one passed, we are saying that only bills Mitch approves of become law. Everything else dies. That's unacceptable to me.

Also, why are progressives always handed shit sandwiches while Mitch gets his way every. single. time? I thought Trump was God Emperor. It's becoming apparent Mitch is the real god emperor. I want him dethroned.

Chris Cuomo on CNN showed last night how the 3.5 T infrastructure bill is massively popular. It's the ticket to the midterm success that we want. Not the shit sandwich Manchin and his best buddy, McConnell, wrote.

[House of Roberts]

68. OK, so they put the so-called 'Bipartisan' bill up for a vote.

The Progressive Caucus makes good their threat to vote against the bill without the larger bill passing first.

Can Nancy Pelosi get enough Republicans to cross over and vote to pass the bill anyway?

Or is this bill going to die too?

What about the debt ceiling and the upcoming fiscal year budget? How do those get through, or are we going to end up with a continuing resolution and a meager debt ceiling increase?

[Demsrule86]

82. I sincerely hope not or we will lose the House and Senate in the midterms and God help us in

24. Progressives have no reason not to vote for the bill. There is nothing bad in it. And there is good stuff people.

[Calista241]

95. Depends.

If Manchin and Sinema and House moderates communicate to the Repubs in the House and Senate that they won't be supporting the reconciliation bill, then the bipartisan bill will likely pass.

The Repubs in the Senate will also support the funding the government and raising the debt ceiling. They'll probably insist on getting promises from the Dems in writing that they won't support the reconciliation bill, but they'll view that as a crushing defeat for Biden.

[stillcool]

69. Huh. I think I'll wait and see before

I acknowledge that the horse is dead.

[Fiendish Thingy]

77. The CPC will kill the bipartisan bill if it comes to the floor before the reconciliation bill passes

Pelosi won’t bring the bipartisan bill to the floor if she doesnt have the votes- which she doesn’t.

Unless 60+ Republicans are willing to vote “yes” on the bipartisan bill (only 5 are on record currently), the scheduled Thursday vote will not happen, and we will continue to wait for the reconciliation process to finish and for that bill to pass the senate.

[Demsrule86]

86. And then we get nothing. I will never forgive any politician who votes agoinst this bill...

They better not show up in any presidential primary is all I can say. I will never support them in a primary and I bet I am not alone. We passed this bill...vote on it. Accomplish something for the people.

[Fiendish Thingy]

91. Pelosi won't bring the bill to the floor unless she has the votes, which she doesn't

So you won’t have to worry about donating to 60+ primary opponents of CPC members who oppose voting for the bipartisan bill before the reconciliation bill, because they won’t get a chance to vote against the bipartisan bill.

It just means that the scheduled Thursday vote won’t happen, and Pelosi will postpone any vote until after the senate passes the reconciliation bill.

Pelosi may have saidthe two bills are delinked, but she also said she won’t bring any bill to the floor unless she has the votes to pass it. It doesn’t appear that Gottheimer’s gang can count on 60+ Republicans voting “yes”, so, despite the delinkage, for all practical purposes, thanks to the CPC, we are still on the Biden-approved two track process to pass his full agenda.

[Demsrule86]

109. If they kill the bipartisan bill whether, they vote on it or not...they are my list. And it is

not out of spite. We are talking about the Primary here. I always vote Democratic no matter what once a primary is finished. And I agree more with progressives than moderates.

We have to govern period. And this bill is already passed and needs to be sent to Biden's desk for a signature...for the sake of our party in the midterms and for our Republic. Handing Congress back to the GOP would threaten our Republic ahead of the 24 presidential elections. We must do everything we can to prevent this. And that includes passing the Infrastructure bill.

[Fiendish Thingy]

123. It won't be the progressives who kill the bipartisan bill, only Manchin & Sinema can

The progressives will vote yes on the bipartisan bill after the reconciliation bill passes. The only obstacles to passing the reconciliation bill are Manchin and Sinema.

Not passing the bipartisan bill on Thursday doesn’t mean the bill is dead, it’s just in suspended animation pending Manchin and Sinema’s actions…

[Demsrule86]

136. The bipartisan bill has passed the Senate...nothing needs to be done on it...and if you mean that

holding it hostage to try to leverage Manchin and Sinema. I think that is a terrible idea for a number of reasons...the first is it won't work. I don't think either gives two shits about any bill. Secondly, it is playing politics instead of working for the people. We need that infrastructure to help rebuild America...and I promise you if a bridge falls down and it might...we will be blamed...We need to prove we can govern in order to win the midterms...we need this bill regardless of if the Reconciliation bill passes. I believe some version of the bill will ultimately pass in the end. Let's have no hostage-taking of bills in a Democratic-controlled Congress. Progressives need to stand down and work on their bill so it can pass Congress and people want to vote for it. We need both bills.

[Fiendish Thingy]

139. The reconciliation bill is already being held hostage

Passing the bipartisan bill first is equivalent to shooting the hostage.

You say you don’t want to hold a bill hostage, but it’s too late. Your only choice is whether the hostage lives or dies.

[Demsrule86]

137. I hope she has the votes...I can tell you...it is a disgrace to hold a bill hostage for any reason.

[Calista241]

88. It's over. They'll probably blame the reconciliation bill failure on Inflation. n/t

[BradAllison]

133. And that will be that

Another half assed bill that will do little to stop the oncoming tide.

Republicans will rejoice at every bad piece of news the economy brings.

Drip drip drip.

Election night 2022 we can all sit here and point fingers.

Should be good.

With Kryyyyyyyysttten and Pharma Joe having never worried their little heads once.