Subduing Suspects Face Down Isn't Fatal, Research Has Said. Now the Research Is on Trial.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

Last edited Mon Oct 4, 2021, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/02/us/police-restraints-research-george-floyd.html?referringSource=articleShare

The medical examiner’s findings thrust the Black family into one of the most contentious issues in American policing today: unarmed people who die after being restrained. The debate, playing out in autopsy rooms, courthouses and police training sessions across the country, hinges on a body of research, conducted primarily by a small group of doctors in San Diego over the last three decades, that concludes that prone restraint is safe and that deaths like those of Mr. Black and Mr. Floyd are caused by factors that have nothing to do with police tactics.

The research, which began as a defense for four California sheriff’s deputies involved in a fatal encounter, has easily dominated the peer-reviewed literature on this niche topic. It is widely cited by medical examiners, including Dr. David R. Fowler, who signed off on the autopsy of Mr. Black. It has been used to defend the police in scores of cases across the country, including in the deaths of Mr. Floyd in Minneapolis, Daniel Prude in Rochester and Humberto Martinez in Pittsburg, Calif., whose family was awarded $7.3 million in a settlement last year.

The precise number of in-custody death investigations the San Diego research has influenced is impossible to know, in part because it has been used to ensure that such cases never reach a courtroom. A joint investigation by news stations in Minneapolis and Denver counted more than 113 police prone restraint deaths since 2010, costing taxpayers $70 million in wrongful death payouts. Criminal charges against officers in such cases are exceedingly rare.

But as fatal police encounters draw increasing scrutiny, so has the research — a growing chorus of experts argues that it is flawed and has been too broadly applied. The studies do not, and ethically cannot, replicate the stress and violence of real police pursuits, and critics say they fail to take into account the physical vulnerabilities, including drug use, obesity and pre-existing health conditions, of many people who wind up being subdued.

[hlthe2b]

1. Not even supported by studies in animals. Where the hell have other pathologists been?

I assume they were intimidated by the controversy...

[brush]

2. Maybe subduing George Floyd in the prone position would've been safe...

IF FOUR MURDEROUS COPS DIDN'T HAVE THEIR BODY WEIGHT ON HIS BACK AND NECK.

Sounds like gaslighting to me.

[Nevilledog]

3. Kick

Pssst.....you might want to edit the OP to close the excerpt....it screws with trying to reply.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Whoops, thank you!

[Jim__]

5. A number of studies were cited in the Floyd trial.

I can't read the Times article, so I don't know if it discusses this.

Whenever the defense cited a study that said the hold was not dangerous, the prosecution asked for the amount of time the people in the study were held in the prone position. According to Dr Tobin, an expert in human respiration, George Floyd died after being held in the prone position for about 5 minutes (IIRC, the exact time of death was at 4:53 in the prone position). One defense witness, the former ME of (I believe) Maryland claimed that they were held for extensive time - I don't believe he quoted a specific length - but his testimony was not very credible - he also claimed that he did not notice that Floyd called out less frequently and less loudly as time passed and that any claims about loudness or frequency were just subjective.

Dr Tobin's testimony would definitely lead you to conclude that the amount of time held in the position was critical. He also noted that Floyd was handcuffed and his hands were pushed up high onto his back, aggravating the situation.

Does the Times article discuss the amount of time someone is held in the position, or other factors such as the position of the prone person's hands, the position of the officers holding the person in the prone position, or other factors that might play a role?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. .

Does the Times article discuss the amount of time someone is held in the position, or other factors such as the position of the prone person's hands, the position of the officers holding the person in the prone position, or other factors that might play a role?

No -- the article talks about how the prone position itself is being reviewed as a cause of death, not based on time.

A hint: If you have fast fingers, you can click on the nytimes link, "select all" by hitting command-a, then "copy" (command c), and then past the entire story into a word document to read.

[Jim__]

7. Thanks for that hint - it worked.