"Manchin demands progressives pick only 1 of 3 family policy priorities"

[bluewater]

Link to tweet

So, Manchin is making it clear he wants to kill programs regardless even if his bottom line funding number is met.

Is this actually a popular position with moderate and centrist Democrats?

[CentralMass]

1. It depends on the level of sycophancy of the individual.

[bluewater]

6. One person is calling fully funding all programs for fewer years an "accounting gimmick"

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.

[CentralMass]

17. The Bottom line is that Manchin, who along with Sinema, are the only two out of

48 who dont support Biden's $3. 5 trillion dollar budget is now dictating what should be cut. Manchin is an impediment. His is acting like an agent representing the GOP. Trying to characterize his actions to be based on some noble Democratic conservatism is bullshit.

[area51]

77. +1 n/t

[FBaggins]

2. No surprise there

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.

[bluewater]

4. What "accounting gimmick"?

The notion that "we'll just implement all the same policies and use an accounting gimmick to look like we hit whatever number he gives us" was never plausible.

Since when is fully funding all the programs for fewer years an "accounting gimmick"?



I'm not going to entertain that as a serious argument worthy of further discussion.

Good day.

[qazplm135]

18. don't waste your time

not a serious argument.

[bluewater]

19. ikr

[FBaggins]

20. What else would you call it?

Everyone knows that there's no intention of actually canceling a program just because you only budget for it for a limited number of years... and of course the tax increases get scored over the entire ten years.

If he's worried about too much spending, does anyone really expect him to say "Oh... you're not creating a new benefit? Just a temporary one for two years? Okey dokey." ?


I'm not going to entertain that as a serious argument worthy of further discussion.
You've been doing quite a bit of that dodging of late. Getting dizzy?

[bluewater]

31. Um, its called fully funding all the programs for fewer years. Pretty clear, no?

When the money runs out, the program stops.

If people wish the program to continue, more funding must be allocated.

But everyone knows that's how funding programs works, right?

The issue Manchin and others have with that is they are afraid the programs will be popular and that voters will want them to continue and back further funding.

But, hey, if anyone wants to try and call normal program funding an "accounting gimmick", that's just a bit too disingenuous for my taste.

So, once again, I am done.

[FBaggins]

38. Such an odd notion of "done"

It appears to translate to “I can only debate straw men… so please don’t reply”

“Disingenuous” here is the ridiculous notion that Manchin/Sinema didn’t actually object to the totality of new spending… only what it would cost over some artificial period.

Why not pass everything and just score it through next November? Then with the tax increases we could pretend that it was really a massive deficit reduction bill?

Accounting gimmick is exactly what it was… and it never had much chance of passing muster with either of the holdouts:

[wellst0nev0ter]

43. And the $1.5 trillion BIF is over five years

Another accounting gimmick, right?

I swear to god, these objections are now being made out of thin air.

[bluewater]

46. The Definition of Sophistry is...

sophistry

[ˈsäfəstrē]
NOUN

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
"trying to argue that I had benefited in any way from the disaster was pure sophistry"
synonyms:
trickery · deviousness · deceit · deception · dishonesty · cheating · duplicity · guile · cunning · artfulness · wiliness · craft · craftiness · evasion · slyness · chicanery · intrigue · subterfuge · strategy · bluff · pretense · fraud · fraudulence · sharp practice

a fallacious argument.
synonyms:
specious reasoning · the use of fallacious arguments · sophism · casuistry · quibbling · equivocation · fallaciousness · fallacious argument · fallacy · quibble · paralogism

[FBaggins]

52. Now do "done"

Should be entertaining

[wellst0nev0ter]

71. I like arguing in circles

Not a waste of my time at all

[bluewater]

79. lol

[FBaggins]

51. Not at all

How would that even make sense? “Hard” infrastructure projects don’t create ongoing programs. You build the bridge and it’s done. You can’t build half a bridge and cut the calculated expense in half. If someone wants to reduce the BIF, they have to pave fewer miles of road.

By contrast - you can’t create universal pre-k and pretend that it just exists for two years so that’s all we’ll fund.

You can swear to whatever you like - but you can’t pretend that something costs less just because you’ve decided to only look at part of the program. The accounting gimmick would have been an entirely transparent attempt to get everything we wanted but make it look cheaper.

Do you really think that Manchin doesn’t know that if he votes for a $1.5T version of the plan that is unchanged over the original except in the number of years… that he isn’t effectively voting for $3.5t (really more because the original proposal already implements over time or sunsets some programs)?

[wellst0nev0ter]

70. "Because infrastructure maintains itself and is self-sustaining"

Also, it takes $4.6 trillion to fix all the infrastructure, but we're okay with $1.5T and five years

[redstatebluegirl]

3. BS he has so many poor people in his state who need help!

What an awful Senator!

[Omnipresent]

23. West Virginian's need to bombard his offices, with...

Signs that say, “Read the polls Joe, West Virginia needs help!”.

[Scrivener7]

5. Of course it isn't a popular position. Saying he is in opposition to progressives rather than he

is in opposition to the vast majority of Democrats is a much better way to foment division within the party, though.

[Hortensis]

24. I think he's distracting WV conservatives away from their own support

for these policies by painting them as "progressive" extremism.

[C_U_L8R]

7. Manchin this, Senator

Isn’t everyone done with this self-serving flat-headed weasel.

[Fiendish Thingy]

8. Stop listening to what Manchin says, only watch what he actually does

Manchin is reacting to Sanders’ press conference yesterday demanding that Manchin state specifically what he supports and what he wants to cut. This is Manchin’s way of saying “fuck you, Bernie, here’s a Sophie’s Choice for you”.

I will be surprised if this has much impact on the final results of the negotiations.

[bluewater]

10. Manchin has repeatedly said he does not want to expand the social safety net.

He has warned us all now multiple times that his objection isn't just over a bottom line funding level.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but I think Manchin will continue to oppose enacting all the programs in President Biden's Build Back Better agenda.

Time will tell.

[Fiendish Thingy]

49. No stalemates or impasse reported yet, just a frustration with lack of specifics.

If Manchin balks at countering the rest of the Dems positions, The committees would be left to bring their reports to the floor for debate and approval/rejection. Then Manchin would have to actually do something, in the form of taking a stand and voting for/against making the committee’s report part of the bill. So would Sinema.

Manchin is trying force the Dems into a Sophie’s Choice, and they’re not having it. He will either have to negotiate in good faith, with specific counteroffers, in private, or be forced to block the committees’ reports when they come to the floor.

[Irish_Dem]

13. So you think Manchin is not sincere, but just doing kabuki theater for his donors?

[qazplm135]

16. I think Manchin

should get to work on negotiating. I think Sinema should get to work negotiating.

I think they should be prepared to give up at least something as opposed to requiring that the other side keep giving up things until t hey are happy.

I think I've heard enough talk, I'd like to see some work getting done. I'd like to see everyone STFU until they have an actual deal or at least the outlines of a deal ready. We know full well where everyone more or less stands. They've made their points and the news clear. Enough. Get to work.

[Irish_Dem]

21. But we don't know who they are really working for.

[qazplm135]

28. I assume

themselves.

Regardless, I'm tired of hearing about Dem disunity coming from our own side.

Do your fighting in private. Be team players.

[Irish_Dem]

33. I am beyond tired of it too.

However I am not sure the two senators in question will stop playing games any time soon.

[CentralMass]

30. What does that mean at this point ? What he has done is openly state he will not vote for this

bill that President Biden and 48 of the 50 members in the caucus want.
We are watching what he does.

[Fiendish Thingy]

45. The actual sausage making (of which these statements are not a part of) happens in private

I have yet to hear of any leaks that the process is stalled or the sides are at an impasse.

Manchin is trying to force the rest of the Dems to negotiate with themselves, but it’s not working.

There will be a bill that he votes yes on.

[CentralMass]

59. What will be left of the bill after his demands are met ?

[Fiendish Thingy]

60. Who says his demands will be met?

As Sanders said yesterday, he could demand that the bill include Medicare for all, but it wouldn’t make into the final bill, even if he threatened to block the bill.

[CentralMass]

63. The bill has already been watered down at least once due to Sinema and Manchin's

Last edited Thu Oct 7, 2021, 06:34 PM - Edit history (1)

stated refusal to vote for it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/04/politics/progressives-biden-spending-package/index.html
&quot CNN)President Joe Biden said in a virtual meeting with a group of House progressives on Monday that the top line of the social safety net package needs to come down to somewhere between $1.9 trillion and $2.2 trillion, according to two sources familiar with the call.

Biden told the group, according to one of the sources, that was the range he felt Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema would accept but did not specify further within that range."

[leftstreet]

9. The GOP would never let a rogue rep do this

They'd threaten to strip them of committees, bully them, blackmail them...whatever it takes to force the party line discipline

Ugh
This is why Democrats lose

[maxsolomon]

11. Well, he's not a Congressional Rep

he's a Senator who knows he's got power to wreck everything.

Sen. Sanders wants him to SPECIFY which policies he objects to, instead of using generalities. This feels like another way to avoid specifics: pushing the choice back on to others.

[leftstreet]

14. Yes he's a Senator

My point was the GOP would never allow him to have the "power" to wreck their agenda

[maxsolomon]

35. I guess.

Has the GOP been in this situation previously? Only controlling the Senate because they also controlled the Vice Presidency? I don't think so, at least not during my life.

I'm trying to imagine a "moderate" like Romney (I hesitate to call him that) objecting to some GOP cruelty or giveaway in a bill, but I just can't.

Maybe our tent is just bigger and this frustration comes with that territory.

[Hortensis]

26. Leftstreet, senators are FAR MORE POWERFUL than congressmen

They represent whole states, and their power comes from the people of those states, not from McConnell or Schumer. They're also elected for 6-year terms specifically to make them even more independent and harder to "bully. Stripping Manchin of his committee assignments wouldn't force him to move a centimeter on anything.

[leftstreet]

54. Maybe Schumer could get training from McConnell

You're not wrong, senators are powerful

Unless they're McConnell's senators

Schumer (and Pelosi in the House) have had YEARS of experience in "leadership," and yet again they're facing major losses in the midterms because people don't vote for weak representation

[Hortensis]

62. McConnell's senators are all strong conservatives, most authoritarians,

either leaders or followers, and they've all been corrupted or were rotten from the start. The old-time GOP senators who wouldn't go along have been purged from power over the past 15-30 years, and some of them were replaced with outright sociopaths. Seriously.

There is no comparison of these lawless renegades with Democratic senators and our leadership, both in what they could and what they would do. Virtually all, or all, the Republican senators belong in prison for the rest of their lives. Also seriously.

[Calista241]

29. You don't think the Repubs would give him a chairmanship or two if he flipped parties?

[FreepFryer]

12. It's also a formulation that allows him to keep his "1.x vs 3.x trillion" objection dynamic alive.

Manchin is working against the Democrats, he is not merely unaligned. He will work this angle right up until his thumbs up/down moment. We can’t forget Sinema’s.

[Carlitos Brigante]

15. I especially love his "entitlement society" comment. Is it not entitlement to demand

a state university lie about his no good, grifting daughter getting a degree she didn't earn. Did he feel entitled when university officials had to take the fall because of his corruption? I wish someone would ask him that.

[jalan48]

22. The Fossil Fuel Industry has spoken.

[msongs]

25. like sinema he is unwilling to choose what he wants, dump responsibility on others nt

[Fullduplexxx]

27. You pick it manchin you tell us what we're not allowed to have

notal

[BeckyDem]

36. Shameful.

[Silent3]

37. I want to see a public debate featuring Sanders, Klobuchar, Manchin, and Sinema

Make them answer tough questions, in public, on the record.

Not that it will ever happen, but a man can dream.

[regnaD kciN]

39. The thing is, this can go on forever...

…unless Biden himself steps in and negotiates a settlement. And that might entail giving up a lot of BBB to placate two Senators, which I will hate, but which will mean we know what the POTUS himself views as non-negotiable. At that point, it can’t be framed as “Manchin and Sinema versus ‘the progressives’” – it will be them against their own president and their own party.

[PA_jen]

40. Who the Freak does he think he is to dictate the Biden agenda.

I am sorry but this is sick that a Senator is dictating to the President of the United States of his own party. And This to me is proof that Manchin knows the Build Back Better Plan would basically hurt his business and his bottom line. Some one needs to start running Ads airing all of Manchin's dirty laundry.

This is what humoring and playing along with Manchin and Sinema.

[aocommunalpunch]

41. LMAO

GTFOH. He can say which programs he wants to CUT. My criticism is that he is acting cowardly.

[BeckyDem]

42. Do they care that, today, the United States government ranks DEAD LAST in child care spending?

Link to tweet

[bluewater]

50. +1000

[Celerity]

53. Melanoma Trump's Slovenia spends 23.3 TIMES more per child than the US on early childcare

[BeckyDem]

57. omg. This situation has become so depressing. ugh

Last edited Thu Oct 7, 2021, 07:04 PM - Edit history (1)

We should have been able to celebrate.

[Klaralven]

44. I'd keep the high-quality child care and extend it to above 5 years of age

Child care is a problem for working families that we should actually try to solve, not just band aid it for the youngest kids.

Universal pre-school probably doesn't deliver much if you have good child care. Studies have shown that kids not going to pre-school rapidly catch up in first and second grade.

The 12-week family leave affects a small number of people for a short time. Not clear it solves anything. Lots of workers have some family leave now.

[mathematic]

47. Another thread where people would rather Manchin decide where to spend $ than Sanders

Baffling.

[CentralMass]

64. Joe Biden and 48 Senator disagree vs Manchin

[FBaggins]

65. And 52 senators disagree with Sanders

Guess how that normally works out?

[CentralMass]

68. Again Sanders did not author this infrastructure bill and the President and 48 Senators

were onboard with the original $3.5 trillion dollar package. Sanders and the 48 are on board with the Presidents agenda. Your putting Sanders demands vs Mancins up as some argument doesn't make sense.

A quote from Sanders
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-agenda-sanders-manchin-senate-democrats/2021/10/06/96fdee98-26e3-11ec-a6ad-9ee7deda7f34_story.html
"I could, in five minutes, go to Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, and say, ‘Chuck, I can’t support this bill unless you have a Medicare-for-all provision.’ But I’m not going to do that,” Sanders said. “It is wrong and it is really not playing fair that one or two people think that they should be able to stop what 48 members of the Democratic caucus want, what the American people want, what the president of the United States wants.”

[FBaggins]

72. Why does that matter?

He's the one making the "2 vs. 48" claim.

I could, in five minutes, go to Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, and say, ‘Chuck, I can’t support this bill unless you have a Medicare-for-all provision.

No... he couldn't. Because there's a big difference between being one senator on the far left of the party vs being one senator in the middle of a 50/50 senate. If the question were Medicare for all. there would be 70 votes against Sanders... not 52. He would have zero chance of getting what he wanted... while Manchin is not at all in the same position.

[FBaggins]

66. I doubt that there's anyone her who would "rather let Manchin decide"

I think there are just a number who have recognized that a 50/50 Senate gave him the power to do so… and a number that are still dealing with the denial stage.

Living with reality is not at all the same thing as thinking things couldn’t be better.

[spanone]

48. I'm damn tired of him.

[apnu]

55. Manchin beats up strawman, gets winded. (nt)

[Silent3]

56. Manchin's version of Sophie's Choice?

Kill two of your three priorities, or I kill them all?

[Celerity]

58. Manchin demands Biden, Democrats make 'Sophie's Choice' among plans for helping working families

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/10/7/2056772/-Manchin-demands-Biden-Democrats-make-Sophie-s-Choice-among-plans-for-helping-working-families

[Hekate]

61. Can I tell him to go to hell now?

[FBaggins]

67. Sure!

As long as you’re willing to live with the consequences that “Hell” involves McConnell taking over and the rest of us dealing with hell on earth.

[Generic Brad]

69. That's still not specific enough

He has to tell us specifically who he hates and wants to fail so their wrath has an opportunity to come crashing down all around hum.

[Takket]

73. why is he asking fellow Democrats instead of his constituants which programs they don't want?

[Rhiannon12866]

74. Twitter replies:

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Mr.Bill]

76. We should put billboards all over his state

to let the people know which two programs he is denying to them.

[Rhiannon12866]

78. Good point, most people don't follow the news that closely...

[sarcasmo]

75. Manchin only cares about 1/3 of the family programs. Beyond Frustrating.

[Wounded Bear]

80. Manchin demands that Dems make Sophie's Choice on Biden't plan...