Losing Europe

[Woodswalker]

We fought to keep Europe from being totally controlled by the Russia in WW2. The EU is the world's largest economy meanwhile America's leaders have been warning of China's ever growing economy but what about Europe? Seems our country has done everything to piss off Europe from Rumsfelds comments about Old Europe and now especially after four years of Mango Mussolini in the Whitehouse Europe pretty much has the shits of the good ole US of A. Putin's Pipeline is further evidence that the EU is getting into a my cosier position with Russia. I've visited Europe on a yearly basis until Covid and I can tell you Europeans think we're a country of Nitwits and they have Zero trust in us.

[Sherman A1]

1. Pretty sure that Germany not Russia was the opponent in WWII

[Irish_Dem]

3. Right after WWII, the Truman Doctrine/ Marshall Plan provided huge amounts of money to Europe

to prevent collapse which could lead to Communist takeover. We also joined NATO. All designed to protect Europe from Russia.

Probably what the OP meant.

[Sherman A1]

6. Granted, but not what was posted

An error on such easily available facts pretty much makes the rest of the points not worthy of consideration to me.

[Irish_Dem]

11. It was just once misplaced word. But I hear you.

However, writing standards have changed a great deal.
Especially with younger folks.

I am a mentor to college freshman, and you would not believe some of their emails to me.
I just try to go with the flow. But try to guide them towards better writing skills.

I thought the OP had some credible information about his personal experience in Europe.

[Sherman A1]

14. The OP may have had information of value

But, it is lost.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. But they also said "fought" - which means during the war, not after

when it was a question of deterrence in Europe, not fighting (if the USA fought communism, it was in Korea and Vietnam).

The OP's anecdote about Europe is simplistic, rather than credible.

[Woodswalker]

15. No Era

Your just reiterating old stale lessons taught in elementary schools across America from last century my friend

[Sherman A1]

18. Sure, you just go right ahead with your view

Of a world with alternate facts……..

[Woodswalker]

7. Thankyou

[Irish_Dem]

12. You are most welcome. Keep posting, you make good points and have a valuable point of view.

[cinematicdiversions]

8. Well that is only because Hitler bombed Pearl Harbor. NT

[Sherman A1]

17. Precisely

[Woodswalker]

9. I'm pretty sure

That we sent 100s of thousands to Europe during WW2 to hold the line against Stalin who would have pushed thru central Europe if he still had the resources

[Sherman A1]

16. The enemy was Germany

The Soviets were our allies and we sent a whole bundle of stuff directly to them to support their efforts in fighting Germany. It was a big event and there are numerous books on the subject.

[Russian Spook]

28. Germany was our opponent during WWII but if we had not attacked Germany,

Russia would have ended up controlling more of Europe than they did, if not all of it. So in a way, we did save more of Europe from Russia. If we had not attacked on D-Day, Hitler would have still needed to keep troops on his Western Front. Is that a fact, no, it is my opinion, no one knows for certain what would have happened.

[Sherman A1]

31. A lot depends upon which counterfactual scenario you are wishing to work through

Assuming that we had not opened a second front (or that the British had succumbed) and the US adopted an isolationist stance then the Soviets would have likely lost or sued for peace following a through drubbing and ended up with a country much smaller and farther to the East.

Had we just left Europe to its own devices and let the Brits make their own way the Soviets would have likely ended up as above or perhaps slightly better.

Remember that it was not just a second front but a tremendous amount of equipment and material that was shipped to the Soviets by the Western Allies, without that Lend Lease you are very possibly looking at a stalemate on the Eastern Front.

[Russian Spook]

32. I was not writing about the Lend Lease only the use of military engagement.

I was answering a post on what if we pulled all of our troops out of Europe. But to answer your post, with the Lend Lease which we would have continued since we did not want Germany to control Europe, Russia was already on the offensive. Stalin did not care how many Russians died as long as Russia won The Great Patriotic War. Once Stalin knew that Japan could not attack Russia it freed up those troops on his Eastern front.

[Sherman A1]

33. No second front

Means a loss for the Soviets or at best a stalemate. Even the Russians had a finite number of warm bodies and without pressure from the West, their opponents are likewise able to redeploy significant amounts of resources.

[Russian Spook]

34. Russia wouldn't have a second front, but Germany can not count on not having one.

They can never be sure that the US won't join the fight. But if the US doesn't join the fight how does that change American history. Will Eisenhower ever become president? Will there be a NATO? Considering the possibilities I believe that we are better off with the way it turned out.

[Sherman A1]

35. You missed the point, but yes we are better off than

What could have been.

[Woodswalker]

36. So your basically parroting old lessons

The very same lessons I received as an elementary school kid in the 60s and 70s on how America the great nation went in and fought and destroyed Hitler and Nazism. I had a father who served as an infantryman in the Deutsche Wehrmacht and was enlightened to a different aspect of this part of history. His happiest day was when his division of 10+ thousand men were sent to fight the American advance thru Italy. Numbers speak the truth, Russia lost 30 million plus, Germany 11 million plus, even the French who we perceive as cowards lost 3 million fighting the Germans. We had about 1/2 million die in WW2. Russia fought a war unimaginable to most Americans and were the ones who defeated Hitler. I believe you may be the one holding on to old worn counterfactual beliefs. We did not defeat Hitler.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. I don't think you know what "counterfactual" means

It means a scenario based on some party doing something different than they really did in history.

You seem to think that "old lessons" must be bad. That's revisionism at its worst. Old lessons may just be the simple facts. The USA fought in Europe because Germany declared war on the USA. It was not because Russia was seen as about to take over Europe. I'm not sure you can call you dad's joy at fighting Americans as "enlightened". If you just mean "so he wouldn't get killed in a horrible attritional front against the Russians", that's just relief about the relative conditions.

Your numbers are not relevant about whether "the USA fought in Europe to stop the Russians", as you claimed.

[Woodswalker]

37. Your right, we did send the red army Spam

[Sherman A1]

38. And trucks and aircraft and tanks

And food and submarine chasers and landing craft………..

[JI7]

2. Isn't this how things have been for a long time ? And they have good reasons for thinking we are

nitwits . Just look at Trump and his supporters. That's what they are talking about . Things like guns , religion and other things that make us backwards compared to other wealthy countries.

[luv2fly]

4. "Europeans think we're a country of Nitwits"

If the shoe fits...

[llmart]

10. Some Americans think we're a country of nitwits also.

n/t

[jimfields33]

19. I wish we'd bring our troops out of Europe then

Let them support the defense of their own country. We always say that Europe has free medical and school. Of course they do when we’re taking care of their military portion.

[Irish_Dem]

20. Exactly, bring home our troops and we can afford free healthcare and education like Europe.

And all the other cradle to grave benefits they enjoy.

[jimfields33]

22. +1,000

[Russian Spook]

29. If we take our troops out of Europe it would be a sign of weakness and also a sign

that we would not protect Europe from a Russian invasion. We would have to leave Europe to defend itself or we would have to go to war with Russia. Either way, it would end up costing us much more economically or in the loss of troops. It most likely would start WWIII. I am not an expert on our military, but there must be some downsizing that could be done to our military that would not affect our defensive capabilities but would allow us to do more for our people.

[Irish_Dem]

21. Yep, cannot argue with their logic.

[GoCubsGo]

24. Trump says pretty much the same thing every time he's given a microphone.

It's always, "They're all laughing at us." No. No they are not. This is just another of this person's posts that are aimed at discouraging and disheartening Democrats. They pop up every day.

[luv2fly]

25. You don't get to define my intent

Sorry, you don't have that right. The post is not designed to discourage and dishearten Democrats as you so inaccurately portrayed, but rather shine a light on how the world outside of our borders looks at us at times.

[GoCubsGo]

30. I'm not defining anything.

Just pointing out what comes out of Trump's yap every time he opens his mouth. The OP isn't "shining a light" on anything. I can see whats going on, and I'm not seeing Europeans calling anyone "nitwit," other than our former President and his cult followers. But, if you want to believe him/her, have at it.

[Klaralven]

5. Prior to WW I, democratic France and autocratic Russia were allies

There is no reason why conflict between democratic and autocratic nations is inevitable.

We have been friendly with and allied with numerous autocratic regimes, such as Saudi Arabia.

[Woodswalker]

13. Germany and Russia have been close historically

Hitler sent millions of German Communists to death camp. Many Russians have German last names. Many Germans of the era migrated to Russia in the early part of the 20th century.

[betsuni]

23. What?

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. Data, not anecdote: European view of USA far more favorable in 2021

up between 22% and 34%:





and, unsurprisingly, confidence in the president jumped even more:



https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/

[Celerity]

39. That data's from March 12 to May 26. 10 quid says those numbers have dropped, perhaps a lot.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. I doubt they've dropped much.

I don't think that many people in Europe are that pissed off about the way the withdrawal from Afghanistan happened (there will be some, though maybe not as many, who now approve of the USA because of it); and Biden has continued to be Not Trump, in all sorts of ways.

[Celerity]

43. Dust ups with Germany and France for instance, happened after that survey. Let me know when you get

newer numbers and we shall see.

Obama started out massively popular over here, and ended up not so much at the end, especially in nations like Sweden who were so deleteriously impacted (granted in Sweden's case in substantial part due to a systemic string of self-inflicted wounds by oblivious, dogmatic, and profoundly hubristic politicians, whose poor choices led to them giving the fucking white national Sweden Democrats a clear and growing foothold in our Riksdag) by the Libyan and especially the Syrian US/UK/NATO led empiric conflicts and their resultant explosions of refugee flows.

Of course Trump, with his seemingly bottomless, endless capacity for multivariate shitbaggery, has changed the dynamics to a large extent, but simply being 'not Trump' will nor work long term here to the level it might (or might not, that is the nation-in-the-balance trillion+ dollar question) work in the US.

cheers

[mathematic]

42. I'm sure your european friends consider you "one of the good ones"

LOL. You need new european friends. It's exceedingly unlikely that a person that negatively stereotypes a whole nation doesn't secretly harbor those same negative thoughts against individuals from that nation.

[DFW]

44. Quite a few assumptions on this thread

I’m betting precious few posts, including the OP, are from people that live here in Europe and speak at least three European languages besides English (so as to talk with more than hotel staff, academics, and tour guides).

Anyone who has seen local broadcasts about the USA in countries like France, Spain or Germany know that the people here are well aware of the internal political split in the USA, the pervasive media lying led by Fox “News,” and the fact that the crazies control far more territory than their numbers justify.

Also, the persisting myth that things like medical care and education are “free” here are laughed at by Europeans, including my SPD/Green voting wife here in Germany. None of that is free here. Teachers, professors and doctors all work for pay here, just like anywhere else. It is just paid for differently.

Ask a typical man or woman on the street in Germany, France or Spain where the most nitwits per capita are to be found, and the typical resident will answer, “Germany,” “France” or “Spain,” depending on where you find yourself, and how well off financially that person is. The grass is always greener—it always has been, and probably always will be.