General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf it hasn't already been said, some support for Alec Baldwin as we know
He didn’t intend harm and is heartsick for the harm caused.
What an enormous tragedy, so much sorrow and pain.
None of us are perfect and we all make mistakes. No mistake I make in my daily work would cause a life to be lost or cause an injury. I can’t imagine how he is managing the stress and emotions.
He gave us the best TFG mockery that got under his skin. He’s tried to be a good person and he is a fellow Democrat.
Vibes, prayers, positive thoughts, aloha sent can’t hurt.
Wishing peace for the victims families and his family too.
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SheltieLover
(77,154 posts)I've been think of him & the victims families.
One has to wonder why real "live" ammo was on a movie set to begin with. 
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Weirdly he is pro gun control, but easily shows a Hollywood movie glamorizing guns. Doesn’t make sense.
Maraya1969
(23,422 posts)jimfields33
(19,382 posts)
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)He's an actor. Without having seen the movie how can you say it glamorizes guns? Maybe it does just the opposite.
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)westerns have (from their very inception) perpetrated the idea of heavily armed west (and frontier). And that has certainly been overdone (as purely accurate history). But that's kind of a different argument than just saying , "too many guns."
WarGamer
(18,257 posts)He's pro-gun control but stars in a set of 3 films with gratuitous gun violence.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)is WHY they need actual guns on set, EVER? Modern computer-generated imagery can conjure up entire worlds, so realistic you can almost touch and taste them. There is ZERO excuse for actual firearms on set. CGI can put in a muzzle flash that's realer than real, and don't even get me started on modern sound effect capabilities.
Jilly_in_VA
(13,873 posts)The fault here is apparently with the person known as the "armorer" who was supposed to have a) checked the gun first to make sure it was "cold", and b) retrieved it immediately. At least that's the way it was explained to me by someone who knows a little bit about these things. Guns, even "cold" ones, are not supposed to be left in anyone's hands on set. That's what she said.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Period. Baldwin touched the gun. Beyond that, I will have to wait for the investigation to reveal all the facts. I was sorry to see Baldwin leave the state so quickly where it will be difficult for investigators to ask any follow up questions.
Niagara
(11,593 posts)Is there a reliable source that stated he definitely left New Mexico?
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)"No immediate charges were filed, and sheriff's spokesman Juan Rios said Baldwin was permitted to travel.
"He's a free man," Rios said."
Also it's the 21st century. They can ask follow up questions using email or, you know, telephones.
Niagara
(11,593 posts)Like I said, the only "source" that claimed he left New Mexico quickly was Fox, so I wanted to double check to make sure that I wasn't missing something.
And I'm sure that Alec gave the sheriffs department his business card in case they need to ask more questions later.
2Gingersnaps
(1,000 posts)"leave no grave undanced on in pursuit of bagging a big lib."
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Maraya1969
(23,422 posts)to leave? I'm fairly sure that is what happened. And they can always talk more over a video app.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,096 posts)period.
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)Quotes from her interview for her last film:
She said: "It was also my first time being head armourer as well. You know, I was really, really nervous about it at first, and I almost didn't take the job because I wasn't sure if I was ready but, doing it, like, it went really smoothly."
She added: "You know, I think loading blanks was the scariest thing to me because I was like: 'Oh I don't know anything about it.'
"But you know, [her father] taught me that and eventually, by the time I was trying to figure out how to make a specific blank go when you want it to rather than it hitting the empty cylinders and everything, I figured that out on my own."
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Seems that would be a job that would require training, certification, or at least an apprenticeship of some sort?
Codifer
(1,174 posts)Seems like her father forgot to tell her that a Smith & Wesson cylinder rotates counterclockwise (as seen from the hammer end) and a Colt will rotate clockwise. I had to check and change my post because I had it exactly backwards. I have not fired a round in thirty years.
I hope that streak will not be broken.
wackadoo wabbit
(1,289 posts)The union armorer walked off the set because of unsafe conditions/was fired (I forget which, and it's not important enough to me to spend the time to look it up) that morning/the evening before.
LymphocyteLover
(9,421 posts)Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)Do you have a link? Everything I have read says the union camera crew walked hours before the shooting. The armorer named in the reports was the only one hired to do that job as far as I can tell.
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)this person was with the film well in advance of the walk out. Not a last minute replacement.
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Pretty sure she was on the set from the very beginning.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)If you handle a working gun you are responsible. Period. The gun does not care it is on a movie set.
Cattledog
(6,597 posts)And the process involved in handling guns on a film set.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)On a day prior to Thursday's fatal shooting, there were two accidental discharges within 10 minutes, according to the former crew member.
The issue of gun safety had been brought up by the camera crew and allegedly brushed off repeatedly by producers, said the person, who had already left the set before the fatal shooting occurred.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/crew-members-hospitalized-prop-gun-misfires-set-alec/story?id=80715740
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)Just like we do all good Democrat’s accused of anything.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)professionals hired to oversee those procedures. Even those actors who have handled guns have to acquiesce to the professionals hired to do so and follow their instructions. Quite obviously those policies were insufficient, and/or subject to breakdown, and/or the armorer incompetent, but the situation is not the same as in the world at large.
A major investigation of set procedures needs to come from this and frankly, a move toward CGI over functional guns will/should likely be the result. Some shows (e.g., HBO's Mare of Easttown) have already adopted a CGI-only approach using fake guns.
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Armorer was supposed to have checked the gun before that. Head armorer didn't have much experience.
Those would be the two people most responsible for this, as far as I can tell.
"According to the affidavit, Gutierrez-Reed had placed three prop guns on a cart outside where the scene was being filmed, before Halls grabbed a revolver from the cart and gave it to Baldwin. Halls called out “cold gun!” on set, according to the affidavit."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/alec-baldwin-film-rust-hired-inexperienced-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-reed-before-halyna-hutchins-shooting
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)and in this case, the actor--Baldwin--becomes the unwitting hand behind the tragedy.
womanofthehills
(10,724 posts)When they weren’t filming - with actual bullets.
Also, crew was pissed because they were working 13 hr days in Santa Fe and their hotels were in Albuquerque because Santa Fe hotels were too expensive. They said it was dangerous for them to drive so far when they were exhausted.
soldierant
(9,292 posts)every professional can trust the other professionals with whom he or she is working.
I am sure Baldwin trusted the Assistant Director. The Armourer was supposed to be one link away from him in the chain.
I'm not being very coherent, I realize.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)On a day prior to Thursday's fatal shooting, there were two accidental discharges within 10 minutes, according to the former crew member.
The issue of gun safety had been brought up by the camera crew and allegedly brushed off repeatedly by producers, said the person, who had already left the set before the fatal shooting occurred.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/crew-members-hospitalized-prop-gun-misfires-set-alec/story?id=80715740
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Just that a movie set is different than your responsibilities outside such confines. Whether it should be or not, is up for debate. As is whether even guns that accept blanks should be allowed at all anymore--as opposed to fake props with CGI applied for the shooting effects. As I said, HBO is already moving in this new direction. I suspect many many sets will in the future, despite the added cost.
COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)The gun is always loaded. You may check it and be certain it's unloaded, but it's still loaded. You always treat it that way. I learned that from before my Army time.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)Killed by an "unloaded" gun. Tragic.
druidity33
(6,869 posts)(supposedly) with blanks. Can you distinguish between a blank and a real shell without removing it? That's what the freaking armorer is for! I wouldn't trust an actor to do any of that! They're actors fer chrissakes! He's supposed to be shooting that thing at people! It's not the real world! He was handed a gun and told it was "cold" by the professional whose job it was to check on these things. Are you trying to suggest that Alec Baldwin is somehow responsible because he didn't check the bullets?
OrangeJoe
(555 posts)While this post has a whiff of concern troll combined with "just asking questions", the main take away I've seen on this requires one to play a little game of mental substitution. In general we have seen very little criticism or snarkiness from fellow progressives on this event.
However, let's say an actor who was very critical of the Democrats, especially Hillary, had suffered this same event. Can you imagine all of the conspiracy theories that would have blossomed claiming that somehow "Killary" had arranged (probably sneaking onto the set herself) to load the gun with a live round just to discredit the MAGA supporting actor?
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)last night.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Alec Baldwin's family was spotted packing up to head to the Hamptons on Friday following the deadly shooting on his movie set.
Baldwin's assistants were seen packing luggage into cars a day after the actor fatally shot cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, 42, on the set of his upcoming movie "Rust." Production on the set of "Rust" has been halted indefinitely after the prop gun was misfired at Bonanza Creek Ranch, in New Mexico.
https://www.yahoo.com/now/alec-baldwin-family-spotted-packing-193210701.html
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)They probably left so they could avoid being hounded by the press. He is fully cooperating with the investigation yet some folks want to see his head on a pike. Why is that?
MustLoveBeagles
(14,921 posts)I'm cutting him some slack because we don't know the full story yet and he's cooperated with investigators. If he wasn't cooperating and behaving like an entitled asshat I'd feel differently. Also he's listed as one of several co-producers on this movie. Did that mean he had the authority to make decisions on the set or was he only an investor in the project and the title was merely honorary?
I have to say I'm not liking the rush to judgement. I don't understand the need to kick him when he's down. I think the only facts we can be certain about is that there was lax to non-existent gun safety protocols and a union dispute over lodgings, withheld wages and the previously mentioned safety concerns that led to a walk out. Let the investigation play out. If it turns out he's culpable in some way then he needs to held accountable.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Protocals among other things. If anyone is charged it looks like it will be him. He should never work in the industry again.
Merlot
(9,696 posts)Every one has a job to do. It was someones job to make sure the gun was not loaded.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Merlot
(9,696 posts)The actor is not a gun safety professional and would have no way of knowing what is in a gun. The actor would trust the professionals to do their job, the same way the actor has someone else do hair, make up, and costume to ensure continuity. The actor arrives on set to deliver their lines and do what is told/expected of them.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)And he would have had knowledge of safety issues on the set.
The day before the deadly incident, a large number of people in the camera department resigned over reasons including an apparent lack of safety protocols, a member of the camera crew who quit the production told ABC News.
On a day prior to Thursday's fatal shooting, there were two accidental discharges within 10 minutes, according to the former crew member.
The issue of gun safety had been brought up by the camera crew and allegedly brushed off repeatedly by producers, said the person, who had already left the set before the fatal shooting occurred.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/crew-members-hospitalized-prop-gun-misfires-set-alec/story?id=80715740
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)How many more times you going to parrot this exact same stuff?
ForgedCrank
(3,034 posts)because what he is going through is a terrible thing for anyone to have to endure, and I hope he finds his way through it.
But I don't think we can call Baldwin a good guy. He has had a rather checkered history of bad behavior. But none of that is even relevant in this matter. He has also done a lot of good work for us in the public eye.
I find it to be pretty low of anyone to accuse him of doing anything like this on purpose, and I really hope they knock it off.
He is probably going to be dealing with this for years in the civil world, and will be forced to relive this way too many times during litigation actions. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
Niagara
(11,593 posts)He also attended the private memorial for Halyna Hutchins and her family knows that this was a tragic accident.
He has said some questionable things in the past, but like you said, none of us are perfect.
Today is his daughters (Ireland) 26th birthday. I gave her a shout out so hopefully it makes her day a little less crappy.
COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)I think he's done some really obnoxious and crappy things (especially to Ireland) but I'm willing to give him a break on this and at least have some normal person sympathy.
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)but if I reflect on the top five worst experiences any human could ever have to live through, this is pretty high on my list.
1. Parent having to bury child
2. Accidentally killing someone else
3. Victim of violent assault or rape
4. Being bombed out of your house in a war and becoming a refugee
5. Illness takes away your ability to live independently
To me, those are the experiences that would leave me really struggling to find the strength to continuing living myself.
What's not helpful in those situations? Armchair investigators immediately scrutinizing why you didn't check up on your child more often or why you left the alarms off that night or why you ate so much salty food or why you didn't check that the prop gun you were handed by someone whose job it is to ensure firearm safety on set had been safely prepared for you.
Seriously? Even if it is the "number one rule of gun safety" that's not a reason why we can't feel compassion for Alec Baldwin (and everyone else working their way through what must be almost unbearable guilt right now). People make mistakes. I think the point here is that the consequences are so unintended and so disproportionate to the level of culpability of any one individual that it's actually really callous to be piling on right now.
NH Ethylene
(31,296 posts)Niagara
(11,593 posts)I liked him before I heard the voicemail message that he left for Ireland some years back. He's well known for his homophobic slurs as well.
He's obviously distraught that this tragedy happened. I'm willing to give him a break this tragedy too. I'm hoping that he finds a therapist to help him through this ordeal. It certainly can't hurt.
Joinfortmill
(20,206 posts)Lunabell
(7,309 posts)How tragic for all, but he has to live with the pain of this for the rest of his life. A life was ended at his hands through a freak accident.
Skittles
(169,802 posts)horrible
Hulk
(6,699 posts)I can't imagine the mental anguish this would cause anyone with a conscience. He must be dealing with a weight, unimaginable.
Of course "cheap characters" will find glee in making his life a hell to live through.
How does one feel when they accidentally kill a pedestrian, or cyclist, or some other terrible accident.
fox-propaganda's slew of unscrupulous deplorables want to pour salt in his deep wound in vengeance for him mocking their orange puss-head cult leader. Such sick, disgusting sewage dwellers.
jrthin
(5,215 posts)
2naSalit
(100,289 posts)
tavernier
(14,294 posts)and in no way his fault.
I do wonder as a producer, was he aware of the shoddy unprofessional and rushed way this film was being put together? There were so many worker safety complaints among other things. I was surprised to read the list of grievances by the crew in the LA times. Normally don’t the actors support the crew, or as a producer was he more restricted due to budget issues? I think he will be called to answer some of those types of questions.
COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)This movie will probably never see the light of day.
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,173 posts)The Twilight Zone was more of a tragedy. There was a trial and yet the movie got released.
COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)If I read correctly, this was being done for less than $6M...not much room for expenses. But I hear what you're saying....
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,173 posts)I see your point as well. This is more of a low budget while Twilight Zone was more of a mega movie. Sad either way.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)or even being psychologically capable of, appearing on a set again for this movie, and he was the star. They would have to start over with a new lead. I doubt it will happen.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Like whether to go with a union shop, and all the accompanying safety regulations that affect cost but save workers' lives.
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)Do we have any evidence how they split up the responsibilities between them?
I know on a lot of productions they'll make the star one of the "producers" without any actual responsibilities because they stake some money on the project and then afterwards they get more of the profits. It doesn't necessarily mean he was the one solely responsible for making budget decisions.
Without the details of the specific arrangement between the twelve of them, I don't think you can say "he's a producer therefore the buck stops with him on every decision made in the production".
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)He was not "just an actor" working a job, doing what he was told.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)He was just one producer among others on the project, The responsibilities for various aspects would have been split among them according to their areas of expertise.
I do not know exactly what happened any more than you do. But, one possible scenario that is not unusual in movies is that someone gets an idea to do a particular film, but lacks money. He/she makes several contacts to drum up interest and financial contributions. These contacts hash out ideas and it occurs to them that drawing in a big name increases chances of more people willing to invest in the project.
So they contact Baldwin to offer the starring role. He thinks it has possibilities but needs some script changes and wants a say in making them and in who will play some of the roles. They agree because it means getting him and getting more financial backing due to his name. He agrees to invest funds in it, too, since he believes that his changes make the film more likely to succeed.
So they include his name as one of the producers, but his production contributions and responsibility areas are limited to script reviews and changes, getting some actors in certain roles, and chipping in some of the money. He might suggest someone to do the actual filming, based on his experience and contacts. But his expertise is in the artistic side - acting, script and story development. Also, as the lead actor, he will be too busy to get involved in the practical side of production.
So the practical side is handled, as usual, by the production company that asked Baldwin to be in the film. They do the hiring of directors, film crew, actors, and various props departments like wardrobe, makeup, and the person who handles the weapons and ammunition. The production company makes decisions about handing safety complaints, employee walkoffs and hiring replacements. That is not Baldwin's area of expertise, so he does not get involved in it.
I do not know if that is exactly how it happened. It is just a likely scenario based on some of the known facts and on how film production operates. We know, for example, that it was a low budget film. We know that it is the production companies that do the staff hirings, firings, and replacements of people on the sets. We also know that production companies try to boost financial investment through the use of big name stars and that they offer stars some control over the creative process in writing and acting in order to persuade them to take the lead role and to invest some money in the film. In return, the lead actor gets billing as one of the producers for his artistic contributions. We know, if the reports are accurate, that Baldwon contributed some of the money for the film.
I doubt that Baldwin was involved in the hiring of replacements for employees who walked off the set, or in the hiring or supervision of Gutierez, who handled the arms and ammunition. But, since Baldwin was one of the financial contributors, is listed as one of the producers, and is the one who fired the gun, it is very likely that he will be named in civil suits.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)He was on set & had to be aware of the problems that had been occurring. He had the power to stop it.
That's on top of the really weird assumption that if someone is going to handle a gun because it's their job, they have no responsibility to learn and follow all gun safety rules and guidelines. I mean, sure - it works for cops, but it shouldn't.
wnylib
(25,355 posts)Baldwin trusting that the production company was handling the situation. But, people will believe what they want to.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)The my cousins sisters husbands brothers girlfriends neighbors hairdresser statement of all knowing fact.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Baldwin wasn't the line producer but I suspect you'll say hang him high anyway.
Withywindle
(9,989 posts)Sounds like the production was already falling apart due to terrible working conditions. Can't imagine anyone being excited to return to it now.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)He certainly could be civilly liable. (Possibly criminally, too, depending on what truly happened.)
I don’t know if insurance or performance bonds will truly cover something like this, either.
It sounds like it was a low-budget film, so you’re probably right.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)They will not be able to go after anyone perso in civil court.
elias7
(4,229 posts)Alec Baldwin has no blame, though like most of us with a conscience, I’m sure he feels guilt and great pain.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)Most accidents are a mistake by someone. There was apparently a lot of mistakes going on at this filming.
The day before the deadly incident, a large number of people in the camera department resigned over reasons including an apparent lack of safety protocols, a member of the camera crew who quit the production told ABC News.
On a day prior to Thursday's fatal shooting, there were two accidental discharges within 10 minutes, according to the former crew member.
The issue of gun safety had been brought up by the camera crew and allegedly brushed off repeatedly by producers, said the person, who had already left the set before the fatal shooting occurred.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/crew-members-hospitalized-prop-gun-misfires-set-alec/story?id=80715740
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)
INdemo
(7,024 posts)Someone in prop department that was a MAGA set the prop gun up with live amination as payback from Trump for all those SNL skits.
niyad
(129,836 posts)knew the whole family many years ago, when Alec and his brothers were young. That was her first thought.
Tumbulu
(6,620 posts)especially since a bunch of new non Union people came to work on the set just a few hours before.
niyad
(129,836 posts)vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)mahina
(20,455 posts)It just doesn’t seem like there’s any way that I don’t know it could’ve made it in the chamber without somebody doing that on purpose
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)There was a rumor that they were sleeping in their cars. Sleep deprivation does strange things to people.
That hadn’t occurred to me. But MAN, that wouldn’t surprise me.
OMG…
Farmer-Rick
(12,508 posts)The real murderer loads the prop with live ammo to get someone else to pull the trigger.
My daughter works on sets in LA and this scared the crap out of me. Of course I had to call to make sure she was alright. She said that normal protocol was Not followed and everyone was mourning the death of the director.
But I wouldn't put it past some crazy MAGA setting it up to get back at the libs.
COL Mustard
(8,015 posts)Ms. Hutchins is dead, her husband is a widower and their son lost his mother. On top of that, Alec Baldwin has to live with the knowledge that he caused it. I don't know if I could get through one day, let alone live the rest of my life like that. I really don't.
I wish everyone involved the peace they need.
apcalc
(4,524 posts)
YDogg
(6,683 posts)I'm not convinced otherwise.
mahina
(20,455 posts)
ecstatic
(35,013 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)...and you simply trust that everyone else has done their job properly every time so you don't kill anyone.
I'm sorry, I cannot absolve him completely nor anyone else on that movie set.
I know I should.
But guns are dangerous.
Every time they are handled they must be treated as something that can kill.
And from what I've read, that set was a disaster waiting to happen. And as a side note, this is why unions are so incredibly important for worker safety: they force layer after layer of safety regulations and procedures to be followed. Proudly.
But I also have to ask: Why did he point the gun at the assistant director and pull the trigger?
apcalc
(4,524 posts)
11 Bravo
(24,282 posts)apcalc
(4,524 posts)JI7
(93,277 posts)meadowlander
(5,099 posts)And anyone who works on a complex project with health or safety or significant financial risks knows that no one individual can be expected to be all over every aspect of it. That's why people work in teams and you need to be able to trust that the other people in your team are competent and on the ball. And even then, shit happens. That's why insurance was invented.
He hired someone whose job it was to ensure gun safety on set. Something, somewhere went wrong. When we have the facts, we can make an informed assessment of what portion of blame falls where.
They were rehearsing a shot, probably with the gun pointed at the camera where the director of photography and director were hunched over monitors lining up the shot. He pulled the trigger because he had every reason to believe it was a "cold" prop gun that was not capable of hurting anyone.
It seems pretty clear from what we do know that he didn't intend to hurt anyone and neither did anyone else on that set. They must be going through life-shattering levels of guilt right now.
Given that, I just can't find the motivation to pile on with the gun safety finger-wagging especially when we still don't know a lot of key facts.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)He talked of the incident as a terrible thing that just...happened. On its own, with blame spread thin and wide so really nobody is to blame, right?
Random Boomer
(4,386 posts)The direct responsibility lies with the Head Armourer. That is there job: to ensure the appropriate weapon is used and that everyone on the set knows exactly what it is, such "cold" or "hot".
The backup on that responsibility is the 1st AD. They double-check what the armorer has provided them, and they also make sure everyone on set is aware of the presence of a hot/cold gun.
Negligence and/or incompetence in both those positions is necessary for such a tragedy to occur. No one else on set bears that responsibility; it's not their job.
Secondary responsibility lies with the director/production company if they hired an armourer without sufficient training and experience, and same for the 1st AD.
That's the trail of responsible parties, not the actor who was handed a weapon. It's not the actor's job to double-check or second guess or do anything other than hit their mark and play their scene as directed.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)And by that I mean union crews who make sure worker safety is paramount?
Random Boomer
(4,386 posts)I specifically said that the production company was also responsible.
And if Baldwin is part owner of that production company, then he absolutely bears some responsibility, but not as the actor who pulled the trigger on a hot gun he was told was cold.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Suddenly actors are given this weird pass. It's a job, like any other.
If part of your job was to point guns at people and pull the trigger, you'd make damn sure you knew what you doing and you'd make damn sure you knew how to do it without killing people, right?
This weird idea that actors are absolved from all that because, "they have people to do that for them" is the same reason extremely wealthy people in our country are never held accountable for their actions, either. The blame is intentionally spread to thin when at the end of the day it really is still the responsibility of whoever pulls the trigger to make something happen.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)It's not mentioned much if at all in the media that Baldwin also has the title of Producer on this film. It's his project from soup to nuts, although I believe there may be a second producer he was the one on-set.
marie999
(3,334 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)is being advised to be careful with what they say just like the cops do when they kill someone accidentally.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)niyad
(129,836 posts)
TFRD
(205 posts)I really feel for all those exposed to this; it's a tragic accident.
brush
(61,033 posts)round should've ever been in the gun put in Baldwin's hand.
yardwork
(68,988 posts)
Chicagogrl1
(615 posts)
Jetheels
(991 posts)Alec Baldwin’s stunt double was handed a supposedly cold gun and it fired a real bullet. This happened two times already. On this very set. Earlier that day many crew walked off the set citing dangerous working conditions. Who would fire a gun after it already happened twice and numerous crew members left the bad unsafe working conditions on thus set. There was already enough evidence that this set was not in proper working order. And who put real bullets in the gun. I think many people are responsible, including Alec Baldwin.
I would never point a squirt gun at anyone, in this day and age.
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Cold gun means no blanks. Empty.
trof
(54,274 posts)Poor guy.
I feel so sorry for him.
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)Why did Baldwin pick up any gun, even one he thought wasn't loaded, point it at someone and pull the trigger?
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Where a person he portrays points the gun and pulls the trigger? He was given the gun and told the gun wasn't loaded with anything, even blanks.
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)LisaL
(47,358 posts)the filming. They were rehearsing when this happened.
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)LisaL
(47,358 posts)This was a rehearsal. The gun was supposed to have been empty (no blanks).
During the actual filming cinematographer was going to move to a different location. The camera was going to stay in that position, but cinematographer was going to be in a different location.
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)But that's just me...
LisaL
(47,358 posts)So the gun wasn't supposed to fire anything. There are safety gun rules on a movie set. Gun should have been checked prior to being given to Baldwin.
Response to LisaL (Reply #103)
Post removed
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)he was rehearsing a scene - with a prop that had been handed to him (after supposedly being checked by two other individuals) and declared "cold" (no ammunition of any kind). You appear to be working very hard to assign a major portion of blame - to a person that clearly doesn't deserve it.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)a couple on this thread who are just a bit too zealous to chime in with their "expertise" in all matters cinema and legal.
Happy Hoosier
(9,423 posts)He didn’t put the bullet there. But once you have a gun in your hand, you hold a great deal of responsibility. A 10 second check could have broken the chain of failures. His was not the only link in that chain, or even the biggest, but it was one.
Happy Hoosier
(9,423 posts)The scene called for Baldwin to draw the gun, aim it at the camera and fire.
The DP and director were there.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)To immediately give Baldwin a pass? Is it because he is an actor? Or because we liked him on SNL?
LisaL
(47,358 posts)He is an actor. He as given a gun and told the gun wasn't loaded. Movie set had an armorer who was supposed to check the guns.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)I am willing to give a presumption of innocence at this point.
However he is an actor who should know safety protocols and if the assistant director gave him the gun instead of the armorer is that per protocol? If not he may have responsibility to ask that the gun be checked.
Also being producer he may bear some responsibility if standard safety procedures were not being followed.
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Assistant director then picked it off the cart and handed it to Baldwin, claiming the gun was "cold" which means empty.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)"Guns on a cart" are not under positive control. If that is the standard, then the armorer, or trained assistant, should check the guns as they go on the cart. A person in charge of the cart stays with it until the guns are given to the actors. If the actors do not get them personally, 9ne specific person per actor should get the gun from the cart delivering it directly to the actor.
At no point would a checked weapon be out of sight of an authorized person. If there is any interruption to the chain of custody the armorer must personally recheck it
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)here. Is this based on your knowledge of procedure existing on other film sets? Union rules?
Are you claiming this actual standard protocol? Or just something you think is desirable?
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)But if I were in charge that is the process I would implement.
If the prop guns are just left on a cart waiting for a scene they are not safe to me. You do not know when, or even if, they have been checked.
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)Look, there is absolutely no doubt that procedures and safety measures failed here. (both spectacularly and tragically) But I think I'll take my advice on what should be done - from the union guys and the people that actually work the sets.
And if what you're trying to imply here (as are others on this thread) is that someone is deliberately sneaking around to fiddle with and 'sabotage' these weapons ... Calling a hearty BS on that crock as well.
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sarisataka
(22,257 posts)I need a lot more evidence before I invest in the mysterious magat or disgruntled union worker theories.
My suspicion is that standard safety protocols were not being followed due to a combination of carelessness and budget constraints. Being young and inexperienced the armorer did not assert her authority or was ignored older production staff.
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)it's been established (or at least alleged) that things were pretty rickety with this shoot. I don't think you need to go a lot further ....
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)"An assistant director on the film set of "Rust" was the subject of complaints over safety and his behavior on set during two productions in 2019, two people who worked closely with him tell CNN.
The complaints against assistant director Dave Halls include a disregard for safety protocols for weapons and pyrotechnics use, blocked fire lanes and exits, and instances of inappropriately sexual behavior in the workplace...
Maggie Goll, an IATSE Local 44 prop maker and licensed pyrotechnician, said in a statement to CNN that while working on Hulu's "Into the Dark" Anthology Series in February and May of 2019, Halls neglected to hold safety meetings and consistently failed to announce the presence of a firearm on set to the crew, as is protocol...
She adds that the prop master would "announce each day when a gun would be required on camera, the disposition of that weapon -- whether it was a rubber/plastic replica, a non-firing option, or a 'cold' functional, but unloaded option, allowing anyone to inspect said weapon prior to bringing it to set and presenting it to the talent. (...) The Prop Master frequently admonished Dave for dismissing the talent without returning props, weapon included, or failing to make safety announcements."
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Was that before or after you found it was Alec Baldwin? Did you read up on how sets handle guns normally? Where did you read that it was the actor and not the host of others and especially the armorer who have the SPECIFIC responsibility for checking every prop gun on the set? That they are hired SPECIFICALLY for that function. To be automatically blaming the actor--few who are gun experts in the real world--for a function that is assigned to experts tells me something. A bit like blaming the surgeon for not checking the disinfection work of everyone who prepared the Operating Suite from the day before. If he or she used an instrument not fully sterilized, well they pulled the proverbial trigger after all (despite the scores of those specifically trained and assigned to perform that disinfecting function). Do you have that expectation as well?
If, and that is a big IF there are procedures specific to that set that require the actor to second guess the actual experts who have already told him that in doing THEIR jobs, the gun is safe then I'd agree with you. But, I've seen nothing of the kind except speculation/accusations from amateur gun owners who have never stepped on a set and had no idea how it works. The latter, who by the way, we rarely hear from when the subject of gun safes is brought up after a child dies or shoots another from an unsecured gun. (How dare we tell a private gun-owner how to secure their own gun! ) But, an actor surrounded by experts assigned to that task? Hell yeah.
So, while I tend to agree with those who question whether functioning guns should be allowed on sets at all, rather than fake props aided by CGI special effects, I'm going to let the investigation play out. Will Alec (the producer, not as the actor) face civil liability for procedures not followed or that could be shown to be criminally negligent? Of course. That is a related but separate issue from holding him criminally or civilly responsible as the actor who inadvertently fired a live round-filled gun.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)You would have come across my post which I will copy here for your convenience. It is my answer to "What should be done with him [Alec Baldwin]?"
I am willing to give a presumption of innocence at this point.
However he is an actor who should know safety protocols and if the assistant director gave him the gun instead of the armorer is that per protocol? If not he may have responsibility to ask that the gun be checked.
Also being producer he may bear some responsibility if standard safety procedures were not being followed.
As I noted, I am not automatically blaming the actor (nor do I care if it is Alec Baldwin or Scott Baio).
Some here who claim knowledge of Hollywood procedures (I never have made such a claim) have indicated it is usually the armorer who would hand out weapons not an AD. If that is correct, then the actor should be asking for verification of a safe gun especially with recent accidents on set. If it is standard for the AD to hand over the weapon then I place no blame on the actor.
If the hospital cafeteria dishwasher handed your hypothetical surgeon the instruments saying they were clean I really hope the surgeon would stop and ask some questions.
As for your allusion to gun safety and security it is something I have always promoted. Once again, here is the link to get free gun locks- https://projectchildsafe.org/safety/get-a-safety-kit/
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Your comment about the surgeon being personally responsible for assuring everything that goes on the hospital shows a degree of ludicrous assumptions that demonstrates a lack of serious consideration IMO. So, I won't waste further time with you.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)You thoroughly defeated the argument
Please do not waste more time as I'm sure you will be busy building more of the same.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)wow...And I thought what JD Vance posted was bad... Clearly you win on THAT score.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Let me make it simpler for you
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Do you take ANYTHING seriously? Uggh.
Exploiting someone's horrendous tragedy to score points re: your personal ambivalence towards someone or some issue is disgusting to me.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Probably having seen much more first hand than you have.
What I do not take seriously is people who ignore what is actually said but put words in other people's mouths then attack them for what they never said.
Another thing I won't do is give anyone a pre-emptive pass just because I am a fan. (Just watch Beetlejuice again this weekend, one of my all time favorites) Until there is an investigation the actor, armorer, AD and any of the cast and crew who had access to the gun are potentially liable.
BTW- you are still wasting time on me
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Exploiting this tragedy for your or anyone else's agenda is disgusting. Trump JR is selling t-shirts that say "Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people." Is that really who you wish to emulate with your callous dead body post? A woman died senselessly. That SHOULD matter to us all.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)The "body" was made of straw- like your argument.
My agenda is justice for the victim- you may remember someone really did die in this incident, she is the victim.
I want whomever is at fault, whether it was negligent or intentional, to face the appropriate consequences. I'm sorry if that disgusts you but I cannot control your feelings.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)It is not a joke, whether your jpg was a real or fake body.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Why do you attack with false arguments?
Did I ever say it was all Baldwin's fault? No, in fact I had specifically posted I presume he's innocent.
Did I say your hypothetical surgeon was responsible for personally overseeing pre-op sterilization procedures? No, but I did say they should ask questions if a person clearly not authorized to handle surgical tools brings them to the OR.
Yet you make a strawman arguments then get offended when I point it out. You still have never addressed any of the points I have actually posted, just the ones you made up and making incorrectassumptions.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)and constructive discussion in your mind, I think you are in the minority. If you have come to change your mind about original points made in your earliest posts, then good on you. About time, but better late than never.
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Since the start.
I will neither condemn nor excuse anyone without supporting facts.
And here you are still wasting your time...
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Happy Hoosier
(9,423 posts)The weapon was cold. Once you have the gun in your hand, it’s your responsibility. Why not take the 10 seconds to ensure it is safe?
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)sarisataka
(22,257 posts)And if they are not being followed he should stop and have everything checked.
I don't expect any actor to be any expert in any field but they should be aware or risks on the set and the measures to mitigate the risks.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)sarisataka
(22,257 posts)Is can be achieved safely. They would never in a million years put an untrained person in a fire suit.
Kaleva
(40,235 posts)Like they use stunt people to do scenes that would be far too dangerous for an actor to do.
Or they just use replicas that are incapable of actually firing and they work in the effects in editing.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)In a situation like this though, that training would be an added cost put on the Producer's plate.
As would deciding to use union crews who have strict procedures to follow that are designed for one reason, and one reason only: worker safety.
So I blame the producer(s) of the movie. They make the profit and they are are ultimately responsible for everything that happens on a movie set.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Happy Hoosier
(9,423 posts)No one should be handling a gun without being trained inits operation, including how to load it and especially how to determine it is not loaded with live ammo.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Give this celeb a pass because he creates entertainment products that is enjoyed and consumed by “our side.”
uponit7771
(93,491 posts)... than being involved in an accident.
The M$M is doing similar and its beyond stupid
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)slightly more creepy. Baldwin isn't a victim to me. The ones with bullet wounds and expired pulses are.
YMMV
Paladin
(32,329 posts)"Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people." See related thread here in GD.
That's the sort of company you'll have to keep...
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Do they sell that t-shirt because thats the shirt I'd wear if you are trying to play dress up with me.
Paladin
(32,329 posts)I'm betting he's better at dress-up than I am, as well.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Figured you would know as you introduced trump to this discussion
But when you are taking orders, "Negligence with firearms kills" in size large please. I prefer US/Union made cotton Ts.
obamanut2012
(29,201 posts)It is ridiculous for anyone to be blaming the actor -- any actor -- for this. They are not the armorer, they are not the prop master, they are not the AD.
And, he is not the producer. He is a producer ie given the title as a creative for more points and credits. Elziabeth Moss is a producer for The Handmaid's Tale. It is a creative honor and a monetary one. She does not have a say over the production. She is not THE producer, and neither is Baldwin.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)That's cool we are all sorted out where we stand on the hypothetical.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)his upcoming projects, he stayed in NM longer than required, he is going to face a huge civil liability as a producer and half the world is hating on him via social media. I wouldn't be surprised if he's receiving death threats and that's why his family left the city. Do you want him to nail himself to a cross now?
sarisataka
(22,257 posts)I am asking nothing of Mr Baldwin nor am I condemning him. He is not the subject of my inquiry.
BobTheSubgenius
(12,172 posts)...life safety systems in public buildings. The legal and civil damage exposure was in the millions, and human life was always at stake. It could be nerve-wracking, and I was certainly pressured more than once to sign off on something that I hadn't actually inspected. The scissor lift having been moved from the site, for example.
I ALWAYS stuck to my guns and made specific notations on my report, if necessary. One of those notations got "our" company dismissed from a lawsuit on the first day.
It's just not worth making someone else's day for them when it could mean huge payouts from your company, and the possible end of my career.
And this story is way, way worse. As far as I know, no one ever died from an oversight in our little sphere, although lots of property was damaged over the years.
Response to mahina (Original post)
xfile-gg08-0000f5d7 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Aussie105
(7,664 posts)only losers.
Let the law follow it's due process and let blame fall were it must.
It won't bring back the dead, won't heal the wounded or heal the mental scars this caused.
Why would there any be live ammo on a movie set? I was in the military. Even then we were told a blank round (always painted blue) still had a range of like 25 meters. Never point your weapon at anyone and never pull the trigger, knowing you had blank rounds. They said a blank round could kill a squirrel at 25 meters.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)I feel for Alec, and I grieve for the DP.
I’m also angry that it took this tragedy to drive home the issue that the film union almost went out on strike over.
Workers are being treated more and more like commodities and interchangeable parts.
RandySF
(81,402 posts)
Kablooie
(19,057 posts)Not aiming any gun at any person, empty or not, is rule number one.
Also live ammo is not allowed on any set.
If he knew there was live ammo on set and crew members were Target shooting with it he is squarely responsible.
Deep State Witch
(12,598 posts)He did it. How many scenes have we seen with the hero pointing a gun directly at the camera and firing? Especially in Westerns?
If Baldwin is guilty of anything, it's being a producer and hiring non-union crew when the union folks complained about safety. However, on a set, the director is the one in charge, not the producer.
Kablooie
(19,057 posts)In matters of safety. The AD can shut down a production of safety issues are found and union crew members will follow his order.
In this case Baldwin was rehearsing and pointed a gun at a person. That is not acceptable in any situation. All guns are to be treated as loaded even if you know it’s not.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Kablooie
(19,057 posts)Not his job to manage the set but he must have been aware of what was going on.
kentuck
(115,155 posts)Never point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at another person.
stopdiggin
(15,074 posts)were never shot - employing this standard? It's an easy thing to say ...
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Per CNN, the guy had a long-standing pattern of what I would call toxic masculinity. Lax with firearms, explosives and safety protocols, had complaints lodged against him on prior movie sets.
This is so tragic, I was thinking of poor Alec Baldwin this morning.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)any actor.
uponit7771
(93,491 posts)
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)that the job of gun safety doesn't really fall on the actors. The armorers and assistant directors account for the fact that the actors are busy concentrating on THEIR ACTING ROLES and not on the specifics of gun use. As a producer (one of several, as I understand it) he may bear some liability for general safety of the production, but the personnel who were supposed to maintain gun safety ultimately let down Hutchins, Souza and Baldwin.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)responsibility for the actor is not unlike the surgeon being PRIMARILY responsible for ensuring the sterility of instruments and OR before they operate!) So, I suppose they would be willing to delay emergency surgery for the 3-5 hours required while their surgeon personally supervises sterilization of instruments and cleaning of the operating room (or the week-10 days for bacterial cultures to come back obtained from EVERYTHING) before that surgeon declares it safe to operate. (Unbelievable).
I'm happy to see this result in a "no live-capable guns on sets" policy in the future, but mere props plus CGI enhancement. But this excoriation of Baldwin for something he was NOT the professional hired to perform--when even the limited information available to date show that that professional was clearly not supervising or overseeing-- suggests to me something other than mere "concern."
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)People obviously can't separate how they feel about someone from the actual event and circumstances, even though they should. I see a lot of gun-nuts really coming after him (I didn't realize he supported gun control), in addition to the usual MAGA's. It could have been any actor in that situation, but it's almost gross to see the barely-disguised glee (even here) because it's Baldwin.
hlthe2b
(112,956 posts)Exploiting this tragedy is incomprehensible to me.
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)thing at that moment in time--immersed in a role and concentrating on it--and other professionals let them down. They're all human, none of them want to be responsible for taking the life of a colleague.
LAS14
(15,465 posts)... unless you're willing to kill them. Not even an empty gun. Inexcusable.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Those guys on CSI, well they mean to kill others on the set. Clearly, because they point unloaded guns at people all the time. ARREST THEM ALL NOW! INEXCUSABLE. Yeah, see how ridiculous that sounds discussing an accident during the filming of a movie,
Joinfortmill
(20,206 posts)and expert said on Rachel, I believe, that he should have done a final check before firing. Sometimes protocols are the difference between life and death.
BootinUp
(50,980 posts)And someone dies… it just really bothers me, especially the gun incidents. It seems impossible to fathom. But it seems clear that safety was not taken seriously by some on this project. It’s too bad they can’t have a do over. That’s why safety needs to be prioritized, that’s why there are laws and regulations and fines. Because this is serious stuff. I have worked in manufacturing chemical industry my whole life and been fortunate to work in environments where safety was prioritized. But even there accidents happen. People lose fingers, are seriously burned, equipment can fall, there are many hazards.
Once I attended a safety meeting and a guest speaker was someone who worked at a chemical plant loading trucks. He was horribly burned in an accident. A very intelligent man who was trying to do his job right. But one day he took a safety shortcut. So he gives talks about the importance of following safety rules now.
I wish the families of the victims and all the other people involved some peace and strength so they can go on with their lives and not be permanently affected.
Deep State Witch
(12,598 posts)The Trump-humpers are having a great laugh at his expense. Exploiting a tragic accident for political gain. Sickos.
LAS14
(15,465 posts)inthewind21
(4,616 posts)It was pointed at the camera she was behind.
LAS14
(15,465 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Joel Souza, the film director who was hit in the accidental shooting, gave investigators details as he was recovering at Christus St. Vincent Medical Center on Friday.
The shooting happened inside a set church at Bonanza Creek Ranch Thursday afternoon. Souza said the scene involved Baldwin sitting on a church pew and the pulling the prop gun across his body and pointing it directly at the camera.
LAS14
(15,465 posts)IbogaProject
(5,639 posts)He should be ejected from the Screen Actor's Guild, the "armeror" wasn't in the respective union. This is a clear cut case of strike breaking leading to a death. I have zero sympathy for him and he should be shunned like a pariah.
LisaL
(47,358 posts)Is there a union for armorers? How do you know she wasn't in a union?
IbogaProject
(5,639 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 24, 2021, 07:45 PM - Edit history (2)
I'm not sure the specific union, but there have been issues all over this year due to so many productions crowded together trying to do 2 years work done all at once. that is what the recent issues with the behind the camera union has been about.
https://variety.com/2021/film/news/rust-halyna-hutchins-death-alec-baldwin-production-1235096161/
And other reports state that there were many safety and work quality of life issues that had already precepted crew members quitting the production.
obamanut2012
(29,201 posts)
Pathwalker
(6,603 posts)n/t
Wingus Dingus
(9,173 posts)
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)the lives of everyones' families.
The person responsible for handing him that gun, after checking its safety must be fully investigated and let the appropriate consequences be given out.
The solution to this...no active firearms on set, add the special affects later, we have the technology to prevent this from ever happening again.
Kaleva
(40,235 posts)Your last sentence would be a good solution.
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)Are for the experts to handle on a set, that's their job. How would an actor even know if the props were just that or real bullets?
I don't understand why these guns, bombs or other crazy effects ever have to be near anyone on set, ever again.
Technology has got this.
Kaleva
(40,235 posts)I do agree that it should have been an expert that handed the gun to Baldwin and not an assistant director.
And with modern technology, real working guns aren't needed anymore.
Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)That should be between the expert and actor.
Maybe something will change in the industry because of this, I hope.
Kaleva
(40,235 posts)Bluethroughu
(7,215 posts)Iggo
(49,687 posts)That doesn’t change the sad fact that it’s horrible how it went down and it’s a terrible thing to have to live with.
But big picture, the buck may stop at the top.
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)Meanwhile, a 911 call from the “Rust” shooting reveals there was perhaps more frustration with Halls. A crew member criticized him to the dispatcher.
"And this (expletive) AD that yelled at me at lunch, asking about revisions, this mother (expletive.) (inaudible) He's supposed to check the guns. He's responsible for what happens on the set."
KOB 4 also learned just hours before the accident, several crew members walked off set, saying conditions were not safe.
Over the last four days, KOB 4 has heard from multiple people with experience firing guns on New Mexico movie sets who said live rounds should be nowhere near any prop guns and multiple people should be checking each gun
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)many of which were preventable. Accidents are investigated, disciplinary actions are taken as appropriate, processes are changed, including better education, and life goes on.
I think that film crews are not so inept that they can't keep real ammunition out of prop guns.
meadowlander
(5,099 posts)Do you blame:
Donald Trump for knocking over the Diet Coke
The guy who designed the red button in a way that's vulnerable to Diet Coke
The White House chief of staff who didn't stick to his guns on banning Diet Coke on the Resolute Desk
The secret service agent who didn't catch the Diet Coke before it tipped over
The signals operator who didn't verify that it was a legitimate signal
The general in charge of nuclear protocols for not building in better safeguards
The schlub in the bunker who turns the key without checking the TV news first to confirm something is really going on
They all have some liability. But the primarily culpability doesn't fall on the schlub in the bunker. By the time he fucked up there was already such a massive chain of cascading failures that it's a bit much to pile it all on him because he turned the key.
So yes, in an ideal world Alec Baldwin should have checked that the gun was actually cold. But given the system in place and the number of safeguards that were supposed to be in place to ensure that this situation could never arise in the first place, I can't see that he's the main villain here.
Quixote1818
(31,126 posts)JI7
(93,277 posts)This will probably take some years off of Baldwin's natural life from the emotional hurt and guilt .
Hekate
(100,132 posts)mahina
(20,455 posts)Mahalo Hekate !
🤙🏼🤙🏼