Scientists skeptical about a physical cause of "Havana syndrome"

[Doc Sportello]

snip

Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive neuroscience at the University of Edinburgh, told Salon that he has serious doubts any kind of "syndrome" actually exists, at least based on the 2018 paper published in JAMA.

"Those data do not support the existence of a new syndrome, as the cluster of the reported symptoms are not consistent and as anyone assessed using the criteria used in the JAMA papers would result pathological," Della Sala pointed out. "It is a statistical fact."

He emphasized that this does not mean people are being untruthful when they claim to be sick. It merely indicates that the naming of a syndrome should be based on thorough scientific evidence.
"This does not undermine the fact that several people felt unwell," Della Sala explained. "However, before postulating questionable new syndromes, it may prove fruitful to analyze the data for what they tell us, exempt from political prejudices and pressure."

snip

Dr. Robert Baloh, a professor of neurology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, said the idea that a sonic weapon caused selective brain or inner ear damage "is not physically possible." Though the microwave weapon theory is speculative, "8 of the 21 initial 'victims' in Cuba actually recorded the sounds as they were occurring and expert analysis of the sound concluded that they were crickets. The simple fact that they were able to record the sounds rules out microwaves as the source," Baloh says.



https://www.salon.com/2021/10/21/scientists-are-skeptical-that-havana-syndrome-is-anything-more-than-a-psychogenic-illness/

[underpants]

1. Very interesting

Thanks

[Arazi]

2. Animals react to changes in the environment - approaching storms, hurricanes, snow etc.

You can personally observe birds getting agitated, noisy, and very nervous as a storm approaches then they fall silent in the moments before it hits.

I'm curious if crickets are reacting to some environmental factor they're detecting that we can't see, hear, or taste.

These folks have observable brain damage. And most are/were at the apex of their careers (iow, not histrionic). Something happened to them

[Irish_Dem]

3. I agree.

Too many responsible, high level adults reporting the same symptoms.
Just because the scientists cannot yet measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Doc Sportello]

6. I'm sure they believe they have a syndrome

This article points out past examples of what are called psychogenic illnesses. But to say they have "observable brain damage" has to be confirmed by tests. Do you have a link that reports on any tests confirming actual physical effects or causes?

[Arazi]

28. Almost every article I've read describes brain injury or damage

Just a couple of samples but there are many that indicate actual brain injury

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/13/havana-syndrome-brain-injury-130-incidents

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/seized-some-invisible-hand-what-it-feels-have-havana-syndrome-n1281326

[edhopper]

10. They are not saying the physical symptons are not real

they are saying that the cause is questionable.

[Doc Sportello]

14. Thank you

You got it. The point was that microwaves can not cause these symptoms. It may be something else, but not microwaves.

[edhopper]

20. The science behind any sort of attack

is very sketchy.

[Doc Sportello]

23. Yes, but anecdotal evidence is convincing to most people

That's part of the reason I posted the article. I think it's part of our evolution as a species. A comment from a friend or a stranger who tugs at your heart will likely mean more than scientific fact. You saw it on several posts here that talked about the type of people making the claims or about their symptoms, which of course are not scientific proof.

Science isn't perfect or all-knowing but it is the best antidote we have to several, what I would call common societal diseases, such as disinformation and hysteria.

[edhopper]

25. A good analysis

Not to open a bag of worms, but you hear the same things about UFOs.

[Doc Sportello]

7. Thanks for your input

Great to hear about your recovery.

[Doc Sportello]

13. That must have been agonizing

You are an example of what is possible if you get help, meaning the right help.

[Voltaire2]

9. No shit.

But heck ‘Havana Syndrome’ is great for war mongering and pandering to Cuban fascists in Miami.

[Qutzupalotl]

11. Suppose what they recorded was not all of what they were hearing.

They experience a condition that affects their craniums and registers to them as sound, and there happen to be crickets in the background. When the victims play the recording back, it triggers the memory of the experience for them, but to everyone else, it’s just crickets.

Obviously cricket sounds do not explain the other ailments, which are serious.

On edit: The psychosomatic explanation also seems inadequate. Those are usually brought on by some suggestion that the person is getting sick. What would be the impetus here? And why only diplomatic staff, in areas friendly to Russia? That is more than coincidence.

[pillbug]

12. Crickets, etc. could be intentional, to sow confusion and condescending dismissals of complaints.

It'd be an easy feature to add while using a brain-scrambling microwave or other such weapon.

[Doc Sportello]

16. One third of those recordings were crickets

Eight out of 21. Which makes it highly likely that that is what they are hearing. Could it be something else? Yes, but the point of the article is that microwave technology is very unlikely (impossible according to one scientist) is the cause.

Also, the ailments may be serious but those do not preclude psychosomatic causes.

Lastly, the article doesn't claim that the possible causes are psychosomatic, or symptoms not real. Those are possible explanations. We just don't know for sure yet.

Anecdotal information is frequently used in cognitive science and even neuroscience research because it has to be. You can't go probing a living brain. Other measures like fMRI and CT scans are very valuable, and can be combined with self-reporting data. But researchers can't just take the words of those reporting symptoms and accept them as fact.

[Qutzupalotl]

30. That means the other two-thirds were not hearing crickets

or not necessarily even hearing sounds, but rather feeling the effects of some unknown cause and experiencing it as sound (among other symptoms). Most were “hearing” something that did not involve crickets, so it seems more likely that crickets are not the cause — and of course cricket sounds do not explain the other symptoms.

I’ve never had a microwave shot into my brain, so I have no frame of reference for ruling in or out the experience of sounds or other symptoms. But I think it’s a leap to say that since they heard (or experienced) sounds, that that can rule out any particular cause, including microwave.

At any rate, the speculation is that if it is in fact an attack, this is simply an unknown weapon, not necessarily microwave-based; so even if we can rule out microwaves, we still do not know whether it was an attack using another means.

[Doc Sportello]

31. As in the snip, one scientist does rule out microwaves as a cause

This part here:
"Dr. Robert Baloh, a professor of neurology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, said the idea that a sonic weapon caused selective brain or inner ear damage "is not physically possible." Though the microwave weapon theory is speculative, "8 of the 21 initial 'victims' in Cuba actually recorded the sounds as they were occurring and expert analysis of the sound concluded that they were crickets. The simple fact that they were able to record the sounds rules out microwaves as the source," Baloh says.

The article doesn't rule out another cause, but does include the possibility that they are psychosomatic, and gives examples of similar phenomena in the past.

[Mr. Sparkle]

15. I believe the people involved rather than the University professor here.

for all of our advancements, modern science really has no idea how the brain works.

[Doc Sportello]

17. Really? That's simply not true

I worked with some of the top neuroscientists and cognitive scientists for a decade. Thanks to techniques like fMRI and CT scans they know a lot about how the brain works. Blood flow to certain areas can be measured and tracked, as can electrical signals that light up when brain functions are employed.

There's plenty of knowledge out there if you want to check it out. Here's a couple, one of which includes someone I worked with and who taught me a lot about brain function:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/how.html

And this:
https://www.aaas.org/programs/dialogue-science-ethics-and-religion/neuroscience-brain-mind


Understanding this new era of brain science can be personally helpful, as well, especially for older adults.

[Mr. Sparkle]

19. we have certainly made gains through observations over the decades.

But fundamentally we don't know how a thought is formed or memories stored or erased. We have, for a better word, a cpu in our brain, how does it work, how can we upgrade it etc etc. Does our brain work at a quantum level of reality, classical or both? Without reading those links you posted, if they answered those questions id be very impressed.

[Doc Sportello]

21. Your standard is not scientific or correct

We know a lot about memory and how thoughts are transmitted through synaptic connections. Lots of other things too, if you choose to understand. If you choose not to, that's your choice. As I said to know what they know can be helpful to people, such as older adults not being too harsh on themselves for mental failings.

To say as you did that we really don't know anything about how the brain works is patently false.

[Mr. Sparkle]

24. To put it bluntly, superficial observations of the brain

does not lead to full working knowledge of the brain and how it works.

To say as you did that we really don't know anything about how the brain works is patently false.

Thats your strawman not mine!

[Doc Sportello]

26. To put it more bluntly, both statements here are completely untrue

Your words are your own, not a strawman.

Quote: "modern science really has no idea how the brain works."

You made that statement, which is untrue by any standard. It's in YOUR post, not mine. I tried to make it clear in a non-judgmental way how neuroscience works, and you choose to ignore it. No longer any point in continuing to engage.

[Mr. Sparkle]

27. Hmm...

you used the word "anything" not me. And just to be clear im not disparaging neuroscience, Im just saying our knowledge of the brain and how it works is at a very early stage. As an example, we can transplant every organ except the brain and for a reason, if you would admit it.

[twin_ghost]

18. Good Ole Mass Hysteria.

They used to blame such things on warlocks, witches & demons, but now they blame it on microwaves.

[edhopper]

22. I don't think it is mass hysteria per se

I think these people actually have these physical symptoms, but to many varied symptoms over a vague period of time is being attributed to something that the evidence doesn't support.
I get migraines, often environmentally caused. But it is very hard to identify what originated it.

[ismnotwasm]

29. Reminds me of "gang stalking" my sister suffers from this delusion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_stalking