General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsso, do I have this right? The corporations win again, and rub our noses in it
They broke the Democratic agenda into two parts, one that corporations liked better, and one that the citizens liked better, with the promise that both parts had to pass, together.
Then, because corporations have to always win and never lose, and citizens have to always lose and never win, we pared the citizen's bill down to almost nothing.
And now, we will pass the corporations' bill nearly unchanged, plus the husk of the citizens' bill.
Just making sure that I'm perceiving this correctly, and that corporate America wins again and disciplines us citizens to expect nothing from government.
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)Lot of "we've been screwed" posts today, based on.....nothing.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,922 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(11,008 posts)Just get everyone together with some elbow grease and a promise of beers at the end, that way we can avoid involving evil corporations?
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)during the great society stuff...but this feels important to me...a BFD as our commander in chief once whispered into President Obama's ear when we passed the ACA...and some-just like now- wanted to wait for the 'perfect' instead of the 'good'...and they were wrong. And those advocating walking away from these bills if we don't get XYZ are wrong, wrong and wrong.
Budi
(15,325 posts)Nobody gets anything till I get mine. 1st.
marie999
(3,334 posts)Corporations don't pay any taxes because all their taxes are paid by their consumers, it is in the price of their products. I can't think of any tax that isn't really paid by individuals.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Are split between the producer and the consumer. Who pays more depends on the relative price elasticity.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)Getting through BIF and BBB even scaled down - is good.
1.75 - that is a huge number (BIF).
BBB - I think it is going to round it out.
Voting Rights - just get rid of the filibuster for that item . . . That ensures Americans in GA, AZ, PA, and OH can vote - and we can do whatever the hell we want come 2023 - including . . . everything left out of BIF and BBB.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)that's a laughable argument.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Pell grant money...there are all sorts of good things. And the child tax credit survives for a year ...just in time to use as a voting incentive...It is a compromise and nothing ever gets done with this...we have a 50 50 Senate...this is a great deal more than I expected.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)No paid leave
No RX negotiating
No vision dental for seniors
Nothing that doesn't appear to be means-tested, and will leave out all the people who thought they might get some relief
Oh well
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)think maybe longer in the end, Pre-K and expanded ACA...and this is only three things ...this bill has climate provisions in it and all sort of good things...you concentrate on what we didn't get, try looking at the bigger picture. I will have vision, and dental when I am a Senior...there are plans that provide both.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)a really decent out-of-pocket and coverage...and she gets a better dental and vision plan than my husband and I have...also no premiums.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)work, I signed up for a dental plan that was not worse than the one we had when he was employed...most dental plans suck...not much covered...and usually a 1000 to 1500 yearly max.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)You're not wrong arguing the benefits of different for-pay plans, but the subject was the loss of the coverage meant to be included in the original bill
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I have an advantage plan. The dental includes 2 exams/1 xrays per year FREE. Also a bit of a discount on other dental work. $150/year toward eye glasses or contacts. I was happy to hear there should be hearing aids included in Joe's deal. They are very expensive and aren't most old guys at least half-deaf? Seems like it to me, anyway. I always recommend advantage plans unless you have a doc you LOVE,LOVE,LOVE that is not on your plan. Then pay the huge monthly premium and let the gubmint take $135 off the top of your SS check. You decide.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)will choose a plan that pays for what I need...I will get 1500 per calendar year. And the plans at work are not much different some are worse in fact...
Captain Zero
(6,802 posts)you with huge OOP if it's beyond basic preventative care for dental or beyond single vision lenses with cheapass goofy frames for vision.
Deminpenn
(15,278 posts)That is the good news. The ACA was unpopular when it first passed, now it's here to stay. The Rs no longer even trying to repeal it.
I think plenty of people don't realize just how expensive daycare is. The tax credit will help immensely with that and people are not going to want to give that up now that they've had it for this year and in 2022.
The thing I hope for is that Biden has gotten a pledge from Manchin and Sinema to at least do a fillibuster carve out for voting rights legislation. That's the price they need to pay for their obstinance.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)up much of this in court and winning 22 is going to be everything ...no more message voting as in 10.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,008 posts)Because they aren't paying attention to the sausage making.
But then most of the people complaining aren't paying attention to the sausage making either.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)But I would disagree. If you don't currently know someone in your life who's bitching about "so and so" getting child tax credit every month "while I get nothing," then your exposure kinda prevents you from making an assessment here.
The stripped bills aren't anything the Democrats can use to stomp the midterms. No way.
But maybe they have another plan or something
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,008 posts)Where are all these Democrats bitching about people getting child credits?
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)wherever resentful populists gather to complain about the "Democratic establishment's" war on people like them.
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,008 posts)Dont want to disturb the populists
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)regardless of orientation, and generally proudly so. We actually have a fair number around here in GA. If old they're likely to resent that tax breaks for parents raising children aren't available to them. If young, hearing aids are worthless to them and proof that we don't care about people like them. A neighbor with MS knows that everyone receiving entitlements is a shiftless moocher, except people with MS, who are being shortchanged.
Miserable schmucks, but imo they deserve themselves.
Bettie
(16,089 posts)do you honestly believe that both Sinema and Manchin will vote yes?
I suspect we'll get another curtsey/thumbs down moment from the attention seeking senator from Arizona.
Won't believe it until she votes yes. Manchin...maybe, but I'm not counting on him either, since the bill is full of things he hates (money that helps human beings who aren't extremely wealthy).
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Bettie
(16,089 posts)Even after Manchin's speech today?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Democrats are corrupt and that "citizens" are victims of Democrats. It's far too entrenched. Might as well try to convince trumpists they're not The Only Good People.
But since you asked, here's something else you're not perceiving correctly:
"Progressives" are a small minority, and the liberal progressive mainstream is very large.
Of course -- in a representative government designed for majorities of citizens to decide -- the larger group is going to prevail. And when it's much larger, it's going to prevail all the time.
Btw, has anyone counted up the angry, even bitter posts that are no doubt only coincidentally coinciding with what should be positive, hopeful news on the legislative front?
AZSkiffyGeek
(11,008 posts)Wouldnt want to be accused of something
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)n/t
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Budi
(15,325 posts)aocommunalpunch
(4,236 posts)Here we are. Point A, meet Point B.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and/or are as discontented as a few. Over 80,000,000 Democratic voters are concerned, though, and want serious improvements to what they have, and they're getting some of them.
They'd no doubt like to have started eliminating our new ultrawealthy classes, but for that they needed to put more power on the field. (Elect more Democrats!) If they'd been 100,000,000, they'd be getting everything in the original Biden proposals and more, including big tax bites into the mountain of plutocratic weath, but...
The people spoke. And it doesn't do anyone any good to imagine the only voices are donors just because the people aren't saying what he or she wanted to hear. Btw, the megadonor classes are very afraid of Democrats getting power, and very rightly so.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)such a bill in my lifetime.
comradebillyboy
(10,143 posts)for the country.
rickyhall
(4,889 posts)They didn't outlaw abortion on their first attempt or tenth or twentieth or thirtieth, etc., but after 40-odd years of pushing they're finally within a hair's breadth of their goal. So if the Progressives keep pushing after each bit accomplished eventually the goal could be reached.
panader0
(25,816 posts)This is huge if it passes, huge on a historical scale.
Its a dying narrative. Gradually it'll be only found in the soc mediaverse it came from.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)made when this bill passes and I think it will pass.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)...
This effort has been repeatedly stymied by the objections of Manchin, a West Virginia senator with deep ties to the coal industry who managed to strike out of the bill a system that would have phased out fossil fuels from Americas electricity grid. This plan was responsible for a third of the emissions cuts in the original version of the legislation, according to analysts.
The new framework does not include fees paid by oil and gas producers when they emit methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Manchin was also opposed to this fee in the original bill and rejected a proposal to include a tax or price on carbon emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency is, however, poised to regulate methane emissions through its existing powers.
These omissions mean that the legislations framework represents a historic investment in clean energy but doesnt include any mechanisms to reduce fossil fuel usage or even cut subsidies flowing to the oil, coal and gas companies that have caused the climate crisis.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/28/biden-spending-plan-billions-climate-crisis
budkin
(6,699 posts)It has been since Ronald Reagan decreed it.
pansypoo53219
(20,972 posts)mvd
(65,173 posts)Yes, well remain the only industrialized country in the world without paid leave because the corporate lobbyists won. They also won on the common sense idea of Medicare negotiating drug prices and Medicare not expanding to vision and dental. But the bill has enough good that we should pass it. My worry is that we wont expand our majorities in 2022 and well miss opportunities.
ProfessorPlum
(11,256 posts)this doesn't materially change much for the citizens- who will have much less reason to go to the polls for Democrats in the next 2-4 years.