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Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:01 PM

so, do I have this right? The corporations win again, and rub our noses in it

They broke the Democratic agenda into two parts, one that corporations liked better, and one that the citizens liked better, with the promise that both parts had to pass, together.

Then, because corporations have to always win and never lose, and citizens have to always lose and never win, we pared the citizen's bill down to almost nothing.

And now, we will pass the corporations' bill nearly unchanged, plus the husk of the citizens' bill.

Just making sure that I'm perceiving this correctly, and that corporate America wins again and disciplines us citizens to expect nothing from government.

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Reply so, do I have this right? The corporations win again, and rub our noses in it (Original post)
ProfessorPlum Oct 2021 OP
brooklynite Oct 2021 #1
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Oct 2021 #6
AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #9
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #11
Budi Oct 2021 #25
marie999 Oct 2021 #2
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #8
Zeitghost Oct 2021 #33
JustAnotherGen Oct 2021 #3
qazplm135 Oct 2021 #4
leftstreet Oct 2021 #5
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #7
leftstreet Oct 2021 #10
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #14
leftstreet Oct 2021 #20
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #21
leftstreet Oct 2021 #22
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #26
leftstreet Oct 2021 #28
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #43
MOMFUDSKI Oct 2021 #37
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #44
Captain Zero Oct 2021 #50
Deminpenn Oct 2021 #31
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #45
AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #15
leftstreet Oct 2021 #19
AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #35
leftstreet Oct 2021 #38
Hortensis Oct 2021 #39
AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #40
Hortensis Oct 2021 #42
Bettie Oct 2021 #30
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #46
Bettie Nov 2021 #53
Hortensis Oct 2021 #12
AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #36
hamsterjill Oct 2021 #13
NurseJackie Oct 2021 #16
Budi Oct 2021 #27
aocommunalpunch Oct 2021 #17
Hortensis Oct 2021 #41
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #47
comradebillyboy Oct 2021 #18
rickyhall Oct 2021 #23
panader0 Oct 2021 #24
Budi Oct 2021 #29
Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #48
muriel_volestrangler Oct 2021 #32
budkin Oct 2021 #34
pansypoo53219 Oct 2021 #49
mvd Oct 2021 #51
ProfessorPlum Oct 2021 #52

Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:02 PM

1. Yawn.....

Lot of "we've been screwed" posts today, based on.....nothing.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:08 PM

6. Indeed

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:17 PM

9. Apparently the hope for the infrastructure plan was an ol' fashioned barn-raising?

Just get everyone together with some elbow grease and a promise of beers at the end, that way we can avoid involving evil corporations?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:19 PM

11. True that... I am excited to pass the most sweeping legislation in my memory... I wasn't born

during the great society stuff...but this feels important to me...a BFD as our commander in chief once whispered into President Obama's ear when we passed the ACA...and some-just like now- wanted to wait for the 'perfect' instead of the 'good'...and they were wrong. And those advocating walking away from these bills if we don't get XYZ are wrong, wrong and wrong.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:28 PM

25. Where's that narrative originating, anyway.

 

Nobody gets anything till I get mine. 1st.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:05 PM

2. Corporations almost always win.

Corporations don't pay any taxes because all their taxes are paid by their consumers, it is in the price of their products. I can't think of any tax that isn't really paid by individuals.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:15 PM

8. And when we have more Democrats perhaps that will change but not in a 50 50 Senate.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:45 PM

33. Taxes

Are split between the producer and the consumer. Who pays more depends on the relative price elasticity.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:05 PM

3. Agree to disagree?

Getting through BIF and BBB even scaled down - is good.

1.75 - that is a huge number (BIF).
BBB - I think it is going to round it out.


Voting Rights - just get rid of the filibuster for that item . . . That ensures Americans in GA, AZ, PA, and OH can vote - and we can do whatever the hell we want come 2023 - including . . . everything left out of BIF and BBB.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:05 PM

4. almost nothing?

that's a laughable argument.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:07 PM

5. You should have saved your 16 cents from July

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:14 PM

7. No you don't have it right...in what world is 1.7 trillion nothing...expanded ACA,PreK, increased

Pell grant money...there are all sorts of good things. And the child tax credit survives for a year ...just in time to use as a voting incentive...It is a compromise and nothing ever gets done with this...we have a 50 50 Senate...this is a great deal more than I expected.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:17 PM

10. Most people will just see it as expanded "welfare"

No paid leave
No RX negotiating
No vision dental for seniors

Nothing that doesn't appear to be means-tested, and will leave out all the people who thought they might get some relief

Oh well

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:23 PM

14. And I counter with new Pell grant spending, child care survives at least for a year and I

think maybe longer in the end, Pre-K and expanded ACA...and this is only three things ...this bill has climate provisions in it and all sort of good things...you concentrate on what we didn't get, try looking at the bigger picture. I will have vision, and dental when I am a Senior...there are plans that provide both.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:51 PM

20. I think dental's been removed. Also vision n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:55 PM

21. Did you ever here of medicare advantage? My sis in law is getting 100 bucks off of part B,

a really decent out-of-pocket and coverage...and she gets a better dental and vision plan than my husband and I have...also no premiums.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:56 PM

22. Oh, okay n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:28 PM

26. I know some don't like those plans but she has had a good experience. Also, when hubs was out of

work, I signed up for a dental plan that was not worse than the one we had when he was employed...most dental plans suck...not much covered...and usually a 1000 to 1500 yearly max.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:34 PM

28. It was originally meant to be free

You're not wrong arguing the benefits of different for-pay plans, but the subject was the loss of the coverage meant to be included in the original bill

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 10:56 PM

43. There are no premiums for this plan.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:50 PM

37. Yes

I have an advantage plan. The dental includes 2 exams/1 xrays per year FREE. Also a bit of a discount on other dental work. $150/year toward eye glasses or contacts. I was happy to hear there should be hearing aids included in Joe's deal. They are very expensive and aren't most old guys at least half-deaf? Seems like it to me, anyway. I always recommend advantage plans unless you have a doc you LOVE,LOVE,LOVE that is not on your plan. Then pay the huge monthly premium and let the gubmint take $135 off the top of your SS check. You decide.

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Response to MOMFUDSKI (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 10:57 PM

44. I don't care about doctors...it is not like the old days ...when you knew your doctor.... so I

will choose a plan that pays for what I need...I will get 1500 per calendar year. And the plans at work are not much different some are worse in fact...

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #21)

Fri Oct 29, 2021, 02:26 AM

50. The vision and dental on any medicare advantage plan still leaves

you with huge OOP if it's beyond basic preventative care for dental or beyond single vision lenses with cheapass goofy frames for vision.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:40 PM

31. The camel now has its nose under the tent

That is the good news. The ACA was unpopular when it first passed, now it's here to stay. The Rs no longer even trying to repeal it.

I think plenty of people don't realize just how expensive daycare is. The tax credit will help immensely with that and people are not going to want to give that up now that they've had it for this year and in 2022.

The thing I hope for is that Biden has gotten a pledge from Manchin and Sinema to at least do a fillibuster carve out for voting rights legislation. That's the price they need to pay for their obstinance.

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Response to Deminpenn (Reply #31)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 10:59 PM

45. That is it... I don't know if voting rights gets done ...we need more Democrats...but we can tie

up much of this in court and winning 22 is going to be everything ...no more message voting as in 10.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:24 PM

15. Most people won't see that at all

Because they aren't paying attention to the sausage making.
But then most of the people complaining aren't paying attention to the sausage making either.

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:46 PM

19. If you say so

But I would disagree. If you don't currently know someone in your life who's bitching about "so and so" getting child tax credit every month "while I get nothing," then your exposure kinda prevents you from making an assessment here.

The stripped bills aren't anything the Democrats can use to stomp the midterms. No way.


But maybe they have another plan or something

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:07 PM

35. Hanging out at the small town diner or something?

Where are all these Democrats bitching about people getting child credits?

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #35)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 08:25 PM

38. LOL n/t

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #35)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 08:27 PM

39. :) I'm guessing sneaking off to tRump rallies or hanging out

wherever resentful populists gather to complain about the "Democratic establishment's" war on people like them.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #39)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 08:28 PM

40. Careful...

Don’t want to disturb the populists…

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 08:55 PM

42. The people I'm speaking of don't vote Democratic,

regardless of orientation, and generally proudly so. We actually have a fair number around here in GA. If old they're likely to resent that tax breaks for parents raising children aren't available to them. If young, hearing aids are worthless to them and proof that we don't care about people like them. A neighbor with MS knows that everyone receiving entitlements is a shiftless moocher, except people with MS, who are being shortchanged.

Miserable schmucks, but imo they deserve themselves.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:37 PM

30. It hasn't passed yet

do you honestly believe that both Sinema and Manchin will vote yes?

I suspect we'll get another curtsey/thumbs down moment from the attention seeking senator from Arizona.

Won't believe it until she votes yes. Manchin...maybe, but I'm not counting on him either, since the bill is full of things he hates (money that helps human beings who aren't extremely wealthy).

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Response to Bettie (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 11:00 PM

46. Yes. I believe they will vote 'yes'.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 1, 2021, 02:29 PM

53. Still believe that?

Even after Manchin's speech today?

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:19 PM

12. How insulting. I won't argue, though, with the delusional notion that

Democrats are corrupt and that "citizens" are victims of Democrats. It's far too entrenched. Might as well try to convince trumpists they're not The Only Good People.

But since you asked, here's something else you're not perceiving correctly:

"Progressives" are a small minority, and the liberal progressive mainstream is very large.

Of course -- in a representative government designed for majorities of citizens to decide -- the larger group is going to prevail. And when it's much larger, it's going to prevail all the time.

Btw, has anyone counted up the angry, even bitter posts that are no doubt only coincidentally coinciding with what should be positive, hopeful news on the legislative front?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:09 PM

36. Let's just say I'm not surprised by the loudest voices

Wouldn’t want to be accused of something

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:21 PM

13. Yea, you got it right. Business as usual.

n/t

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:26 PM

16. No.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:32 PM

27. Haaaa. That's a keeper. Best gif of the day, thanks

 

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:27 PM

17. The promise was made to the donor class that nothing would fundamentally change.

Here we are. Point A, meet Point B.

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Response to aocommunalpunch (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 08:48 PM

41. It's a great mistake to assume that most Democratic voters are doing poorly

and/or are as discontented as a few. Over 80,000,000 Democratic voters are concerned, though, and want serious improvements to what they have, and they're getting some of them.

They'd no doubt like to have started eliminating our new ultrawealthy classes, but for that they needed to put more power on the field. (Elect more Democrats!) If they'd been 100,000,000, they'd be getting everything in the original Biden proposals and more, including big tax bites into the mountain of plutocratic weath, but...

The people spoke. And it doesn't do anyone any good to imagine the only voices are donors just because the people aren't saying what he or she wanted to hear. Btw, the megadonor classes are very afraid of Democrats getting power, and very rightly so.

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Response to aocommunalpunch (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 11:01 PM

47. You are wrong...this is a big deal...This bill is ground breaking and I never expected to see

such a bill in my lifetime.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:27 PM

18. What nonsense. The two bills will do immense good

for the country.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:02 PM

23. Maybe we can learn from the repugs.

They didn't outlaw abortion on their first attempt or tenth or twentieth or thirtieth, etc., but after 40-odd years of pushing they're finally within a hair's breadth of their goal. So if the Progressives keep pushing after each bit accomplished eventually the goal could be reached.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:10 PM

24. unrec - that's two today and I've been outside almost all day.

This is huge if it passes, huge on a historical scale.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:34 PM

29. K & R

 

Its a dying narrative. Gradually it'll be only found in the soc mediaverse it came from.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 11:02 PM

48. I know right...like the Great society...I don't see how folks are missing this...history will be

made when this bill passes and I think it will pass.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:42 PM

32. On climate, yeah, the corporations won - anything anti-fossil fuel out, but money for renewables in

This proposed framework includes $555bn in incentives, investments and tax credits aimed at bolstering the deployment of renewable energy such as solar and wind, as well as a tax break that will deliver up to $12,500 to people who buy an electric car. The bill will help deploy new electric buses and trucks, build community resilience to disastrous wildfires and floods and employ 300,000 people in a new “civilian climate corps”.
...
This effort has been repeatedly stymied by the objections of Manchin, a West Virginia senator with deep ties to the coal industry who managed to strike out of the bill a system that would have phased out fossil fuels from America’s electricity grid. This plan was responsible for a third of the emissions cuts in the original version of the legislation, according to analysts.

The new framework does not include fees paid by oil and gas producers when they emit methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Manchin was also opposed to this fee in the original bill and rejected a proposal to include a tax or price on carbon emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency is, however, poised to regulate methane emissions through its existing powers.

These omissions mean that the legislation’s framework represents a historic investment in clean energy but doesn’t include any mechanisms to reduce fossil fuel usage or even cut subsidies flowing to the oil, coal and gas companies that have caused the climate crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/28/biden-spending-plan-billions-climate-crisis

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:49 PM

34. America is a country for and by corporations

It has been since Ronald Reagan decreed it.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Fri Oct 29, 2021, 02:15 AM

49. of corporations, by corporations, for corporations.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Fri Oct 29, 2021, 02:58 AM

51. Your post has some merit

Yes, we’ll remain the only industrialized country in the world without paid leave because the corporate lobbyists won. They also won on the common sense idea of Medicare negotiating drug prices and Medicare not expanding to vision and dental. But the bill has enough good that we should pass it. My worry is that we won’t expand our majorities in 2022 and we’ll miss opportunities.

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Response to mvd (Reply #51)

Sat Oct 30, 2021, 11:44 AM

52. that's exactly it

this doesn't materially change much for the citizens- who will have much less reason to go to the polls for Democrats in the next 2-4 years.

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