Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

ProfessorPlum

(11,248 posts)
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:01 PM Oct 2021

so, do I have this right? The corporations win again, and rub our noses in it

They broke the Democratic agenda into two parts, one that corporations liked better, and one that the citizens liked better, with the promise that both parts had to pass, together.

Then, because corporations have to always win and never lose, and citizens have to always lose and never win, we pared the citizen's bill down to almost nothing.

And now, we will pass the corporations' bill nearly unchanged, plus the husk of the citizens' bill.

Just making sure that I'm perceiving this correctly, and that corporate America wins again and disciplines us citizens to expect nothing from government.

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
so, do I have this right? The corporations win again, and rub our noses in it (Original Post) ProfessorPlum Oct 2021 OP
Yawn..... brooklynite Oct 2021 #1
Indeed Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Oct 2021 #6
Apparently the hope for the infrastructure plan was an ol' fashioned barn-raising? AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #9
True that... I am excited to pass the most sweeping legislation in my memory... I wasn't born Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #11
Where's that narrative originating, anyway. Budi Oct 2021 #25
Corporations almost always win. marie999 Oct 2021 #2
And when we have more Democrats perhaps that will change but not in a 50 50 Senate. Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #8
Taxes Zeitghost Oct 2021 #33
Agree to disagree? JustAnotherGen Oct 2021 #3
almost nothing? qazplm135 Oct 2021 #4
You should have saved your 16 cents from July leftstreet Oct 2021 #5
No you don't have it right...in what world is 1.7 trillion nothing...expanded ACA,PreK, increased Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #7
Most people will just see it as expanded "welfare" leftstreet Oct 2021 #10
And I counter with new Pell grant spending, child care survives at least for a year and I Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #14
I think dental's been removed. Also vision n/t leftstreet Oct 2021 #20
Did you ever here of medicare advantage? My sis in law is getting 100 bucks off of part B, Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #21
Oh, okay n/t leftstreet Oct 2021 #22
I know some don't like those plans but she has had a good experience. Also, when hubs was out of Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #26
It was originally meant to be free leftstreet Oct 2021 #28
There are no premiums for this plan. Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #43
Yes MOMFUDSKI Oct 2021 #37
I don't care about doctors...it is not like the old days ...when you knew your doctor.... so I Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #44
The vision and dental on any medicare advantage plan still leaves Captain Zero Oct 2021 #50
The camel now has its nose under the tent Deminpenn Oct 2021 #31
That is it... I don't know if voting rights gets done ...we need more Democrats...but we can tie Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #45
Most people won't see that at all AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #15
If you say so leftstreet Oct 2021 #19
Hanging out at the small town diner or something? AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #35
LOL n/t leftstreet Oct 2021 #38
:) I'm guessing sneaking off to tRump rallies or hanging out Hortensis Oct 2021 #39
Careful... AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #40
The people I'm speaking of don't vote Democratic, Hortensis Oct 2021 #42
It hasn't passed yet Bettie Oct 2021 #30
Yes. I believe they will vote 'yes'. Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #46
Still believe that? Bettie Nov 2021 #53
How insulting. I won't argue, though, with the delusional notion that Hortensis Oct 2021 #12
Let's just say I'm not surprised by the loudest voices AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2021 #36
Yea, you got it right. Business as usual. hamsterjill Oct 2021 #13
No. NurseJackie Oct 2021 #16
Haaaa. That's a keeper. Best gif of the day, thanks Budi Oct 2021 #27
The promise was made to the donor class that nothing would fundamentally change. aocommunalpunch Oct 2021 #17
It's a great mistake to assume that most Democratic voters are doing poorly Hortensis Oct 2021 #41
You are wrong...this is a big deal...This bill is ground breaking and I never expected to see Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #47
What nonsense. The two bills will do immense good comradebillyboy Oct 2021 #18
Maybe we can learn from the repugs. rickyhall Oct 2021 #23
unrec - that's two today and I've been outside almost all day. panader0 Oct 2021 #24
K & R Budi Oct 2021 #29
I know right...like the Great society...I don't see how folks are missing this...history will be Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #48
On climate, yeah, the corporations won - anything anti-fossil fuel out, but money for renewables in muriel_volestrangler Oct 2021 #32
America is a country for and by corporations budkin Oct 2021 #34
of corporations, by corporations, for corporations. pansypoo53219 Oct 2021 #49
Your post has some merit mvd Oct 2021 #51
that's exactly it ProfessorPlum Oct 2021 #52

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,576 posts)
9. Apparently the hope for the infrastructure plan was an ol' fashioned barn-raising?
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:17 PM
Oct 2021

Just get everyone together with some elbow grease and a promise of beers at the end, that way we can avoid involving evil corporations?

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
11. True that... I am excited to pass the most sweeping legislation in my memory... I wasn't born
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:19 PM
Oct 2021

during the great society stuff...but this feels important to me...a BFD as our commander in chief once whispered into President Obama's ear when we passed the ACA...and some-just like now- wanted to wait for the 'perfect' instead of the 'good'...and they were wrong. And those advocating walking away from these bills if we don't get XYZ are wrong, wrong and wrong.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
2. Corporations almost always win.
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:05 PM
Oct 2021

Corporations don't pay any taxes because all their taxes are paid by their consumers, it is in the price of their products. I can't think of any tax that isn't really paid by individuals.

Zeitghost

(3,628 posts)
33. Taxes
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:45 PM
Oct 2021

Are split between the producer and the consumer. Who pays more depends on the relative price elasticity.

JustAnotherGen

(31,444 posts)
3. Agree to disagree?
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:05 PM
Oct 2021

Getting through BIF and BBB even scaled down - is good.

1.75 - that is a huge number (BIF).
BBB - I think it is going to round it out.


Voting Rights - just get rid of the filibuster for that item . . . That ensures Americans in GA, AZ, PA, and OH can vote - and we can do whatever the hell we want come 2023 - including . . . everything left out of BIF and BBB.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
7. No you don't have it right...in what world is 1.7 trillion nothing...expanded ACA,PreK, increased
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:14 PM
Oct 2021

Pell grant money...there are all sorts of good things. And the child tax credit survives for a year ...just in time to use as a voting incentive...It is a compromise and nothing ever gets done with this...we have a 50 50 Senate...this is a great deal more than I expected.

leftstreet

(36,043 posts)
10. Most people will just see it as expanded "welfare"
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:17 PM
Oct 2021

No paid leave
No RX negotiating
No vision dental for seniors

Nothing that doesn't appear to be means-tested, and will leave out all the people who thought they might get some relief

Oh well

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
14. And I counter with new Pell grant spending, child care survives at least for a year and I
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:23 PM
Oct 2021

think maybe longer in the end, Pre-K and expanded ACA...and this is only three things ...this bill has climate provisions in it and all sort of good things...you concentrate on what we didn't get, try looking at the bigger picture. I will have vision, and dental when I am a Senior...there are plans that provide both.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
21. Did you ever here of medicare advantage? My sis in law is getting 100 bucks off of part B,
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:55 PM
Oct 2021

a really decent out-of-pocket and coverage...and she gets a better dental and vision plan than my husband and I have...also no premiums.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
26. I know some don't like those plans but she has had a good experience. Also, when hubs was out of
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:28 PM
Oct 2021

work, I signed up for a dental plan that was not worse than the one we had when he was employed...most dental plans suck...not much covered...and usually a 1000 to 1500 yearly max.

leftstreet

(36,043 posts)
28. It was originally meant to be free
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:34 PM
Oct 2021

You're not wrong arguing the benefits of different for-pay plans, but the subject was the loss of the coverage meant to be included in the original bill

MOMFUDSKI

(4,587 posts)
37. Yes
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:50 PM
Oct 2021

I have an advantage plan. The dental includes 2 exams/1 xrays per year FREE. Also a bit of a discount on other dental work. $150/year toward eye glasses or contacts. I was happy to hear there should be hearing aids included in Joe's deal. They are very expensive and aren't most old guys at least half-deaf? Seems like it to me, anyway. I always recommend advantage plans unless you have a doc you LOVE,LOVE,LOVE that is not on your plan. Then pay the huge monthly premium and let the gubmint take $135 off the top of your SS check. You decide.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
44. I don't care about doctors...it is not like the old days ...when you knew your doctor.... so I
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 09:57 PM
Oct 2021

will choose a plan that pays for what I need...I will get 1500 per calendar year. And the plans at work are not much different some are worse in fact...

Captain Zero

(6,645 posts)
50. The vision and dental on any medicare advantage plan still leaves
Fri Oct 29, 2021, 01:26 AM
Oct 2021

you with huge OOP if it's beyond basic preventative care for dental or beyond single vision lenses with cheapass goofy frames for vision.

Deminpenn

(15,231 posts)
31. The camel now has its nose under the tent
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:40 PM
Oct 2021

That is the good news. The ACA was unpopular when it first passed, now it's here to stay. The Rs no longer even trying to repeal it.

I think plenty of people don't realize just how expensive daycare is. The tax credit will help immensely with that and people are not going to want to give that up now that they've had it for this year and in 2022.

The thing I hope for is that Biden has gotten a pledge from Manchin and Sinema to at least do a fillibuster carve out for voting rights legislation. That's the price they need to pay for their obstinance.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
45. That is it... I don't know if voting rights gets done ...we need more Democrats...but we can tie
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 09:59 PM
Oct 2021

up much of this in court and winning 22 is going to be everything ...no more message voting as in 10.

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,576 posts)
15. Most people won't see that at all
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:24 PM
Oct 2021

Because they aren't paying attention to the sausage making.
But then most of the people complaining aren't paying attention to the sausage making either.

leftstreet

(36,043 posts)
19. If you say so
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:46 PM
Oct 2021

But I would disagree. If you don't currently know someone in your life who's bitching about "so and so" getting child tax credit every month "while I get nothing," then your exposure kinda prevents you from making an assessment here.

The stripped bills aren't anything the Democrats can use to stomp the midterms. No way.


But maybe they have another plan or something

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,576 posts)
35. Hanging out at the small town diner or something?
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 06:07 PM
Oct 2021

Where are all these Democrats bitching about people getting child credits?

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
39. :) I'm guessing sneaking off to tRump rallies or hanging out
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:27 PM
Oct 2021

wherever resentful populists gather to complain about the "Democratic establishment's" war on people like them.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
42. The people I'm speaking of don't vote Democratic,
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:55 PM
Oct 2021

regardless of orientation, and generally proudly so. We actually have a fair number around here in GA. If old they're likely to resent that tax breaks for parents raising children aren't available to them. If young, hearing aids are worthless to them and proof that we don't care about people like them. A neighbor with MS knows that everyone receiving entitlements is a shiftless moocher, except people with MS, who are being shortchanged.

Miserable schmucks, but imo they deserve themselves.

Bettie

(15,871 posts)
30. It hasn't passed yet
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:37 PM
Oct 2021

do you honestly believe that both Sinema and Manchin will vote yes?

I suspect we'll get another curtsey/thumbs down moment from the attention seeking senator from Arizona.

Won't believe it until she votes yes. Manchin...maybe, but I'm not counting on him either, since the bill is full of things he hates (money that helps human beings who aren't extremely wealthy).

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
12. How insulting. I won't argue, though, with the delusional notion that
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:19 PM
Oct 2021

Democrats are corrupt and that "citizens" are victims of Democrats. It's far too entrenched. Might as well try to convince trumpists they're not The Only Good People.

But since you asked, here's something else you're not perceiving correctly:

"Progressives" are a small minority, and the liberal progressive mainstream is very large.

Of course -- in a representative government designed for majorities of citizens to decide -- the larger group is going to prevail. And when it's much larger, it's going to prevail all the time.

Btw, has anyone counted up the angry, even bitter posts that are no doubt only coincidentally coinciding with what should be positive, hopeful news on the legislative front?

aocommunalpunch

(4,208 posts)
17. The promise was made to the donor class that nothing would fundamentally change.
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 04:27 PM
Oct 2021

Here we are. Point A, meet Point B.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
41. It's a great mistake to assume that most Democratic voters are doing poorly
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 07:48 PM
Oct 2021

and/or are as discontented as a few. Over 80,000,000 Democratic voters are concerned, though, and want serious improvements to what they have, and they're getting some of them.

They'd no doubt like to have started eliminating our new ultrawealthy classes, but for that they needed to put more power on the field. (Elect more Democrats!) If they'd been 100,000,000, they'd be getting everything in the original Biden proposals and more, including big tax bites into the mountain of plutocratic weath, but...

The people spoke. And it doesn't do anyone any good to imagine the only voices are donors just because the people aren't saying what he or she wanted to hear. Btw, the megadonor classes are very afraid of Democrats getting power, and very rightly so.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
47. You are wrong...this is a big deal...This bill is ground breaking and I never expected to see
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 10:01 PM
Oct 2021

such a bill in my lifetime.

rickyhall

(4,889 posts)
23. Maybe we can learn from the repugs.
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:02 PM
Oct 2021

They didn't outlaw abortion on their first attempt or tenth or twentieth or thirtieth, etc., but after 40-odd years of pushing they're finally within a hair's breadth of their goal. So if the Progressives keep pushing after each bit accomplished eventually the goal could be reached.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
24. unrec - that's two today and I've been outside almost all day.
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:10 PM
Oct 2021

This is huge if it passes, huge on a historical scale.

 

Budi

(15,325 posts)
29. K & R
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:34 PM
Oct 2021

Its a dying narrative. Gradually it'll be only found in the soc mediaverse it came from.

Demsrule86

(67,943 posts)
48. I know right...like the Great society...I don't see how folks are missing this...history will be
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 10:02 PM
Oct 2021

made when this bill passes and I think it will pass.

muriel_volestrangler

(100,941 posts)
32. On climate, yeah, the corporations won - anything anti-fossil fuel out, but money for renewables in
Thu Oct 28, 2021, 05:42 PM
Oct 2021
This proposed framework includes $555bn in incentives, investments and tax credits aimed at bolstering the deployment of renewable energy such as solar and wind, as well as a tax break that will deliver up to $12,500 to people who buy an electric car. The bill will help deploy new electric buses and trucks, build community resilience to disastrous wildfires and floods and employ 300,000 people in a new “civilian climate corps”.
...
This effort has been repeatedly stymied by the objections of Manchin, a West Virginia senator with deep ties to the coal industry who managed to strike out of the bill a system that would have phased out fossil fuels from America’s electricity grid. This plan was responsible for a third of the emissions cuts in the original version of the legislation, according to analysts.

The new framework does not include fees paid by oil and gas producers when they emit methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Manchin was also opposed to this fee in the original bill and rejected a proposal to include a tax or price on carbon emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency is, however, poised to regulate methane emissions through its existing powers.

These omissions mean that the legislation’s framework represents a historic investment in clean energy but doesn’t include any mechanisms to reduce fossil fuel usage or even cut subsidies flowing to the oil, coal and gas companies that have caused the climate crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/28/biden-spending-plan-billions-climate-crisis

mvd

(65,120 posts)
51. Your post has some merit
Fri Oct 29, 2021, 01:58 AM
Oct 2021

Yes, we’ll remain the only industrialized country in the world without paid leave because the corporate lobbyists won. They also won on the common sense idea of Medicare negotiating drug prices and Medicare not expanding to vision and dental. But the bill has enough good that we should pass it. My worry is that we won’t expand our majorities in 2022 and we’ll miss opportunities.

ProfessorPlum

(11,248 posts)
52. that's exactly it
Sat Oct 30, 2021, 10:44 AM
Oct 2021

this doesn't materially change much for the citizens- who will have much less reason to go to the polls for Democrats in the next 2-4 years.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»so, do I have this right?...