General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSome things I really do not want to hear from anyone:
"We don't dare indict/prosecute/imprison Trump because---
--- that would result in violence all over the nation as his followers revolt!
---that would further divide our country!
---that would justify a future Republican majority's prosecution of their Democratic predecessor!"
I have much the same attitude about any of the criminals who served in his regime or participated in the January 6th coup attempt.
If we allow the threats of punks like the proud boys, oath keepers and three percenters to prevent the punishment of the Trump Traitors, we do not deserve to survive as the nation most of us were blessed to be born in.
Brainfodder
(6,423 posts)Make it a festive occasion!
Arkansas Granny
(31,506 posts)dalton99a
(81,392 posts)WarGamer
(12,345 posts)And you fail to get convictions?
Better make sure it's a 100% closed and shut case that 6 Biden voters and 6 Trump voters in the jury box can agree on the crimes.
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)WarGamer
(12,345 posts)Taking something to trial that ends in a hung jury is worse than not taking it to trial because it will be spun as "politically based" prosecution.
You have Trump on tape saying "breach the barriers and trash the inside of the Capitol... and kill the people inside" then you've got a case that can get a conviction.
Whatcha' got?
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)to vote to convict is 0.
You are subtly but assuredly telling us Dont.
WarGamer
(12,345 posts)But don't forget, the rally on 1.6 was 100% legal and permitted.
There were legal and permitted applications for other demonstrations that day closer to the Capitol.
Here's the fine line, how do you draw the line from legal and appropriate permitted actions to law breakers?
If you've got something... if the DoJ has something... bring it.
Because if there was *actual conspiratorial actions to ATTACK the Capitol and worse... then you've got serious crimes that reach the top.
I haven't heard any evidence of that.
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)Practically see-thru.
WarGamer
(12,345 posts)ZZenith
(4,115 posts)RicROC
(1,203 posts)Prosecute all of them!
Evolve Dammit
(16,697 posts)Justice matters.
(6,918 posts)PortTack
(32,705 posts)Worst case scenario....some technicality or not enough evidence and the case dismissed, or found not guilty... it would only further embolden the right.
We do not know what is happening with the DOJ and its pointless to second guess.
Justice matters.
(6,918 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)as a form of persecution. Inadequate evidence of criminal behavior? No wrongful arrest, no prosecution, no conviction, no imprisonment. That's the way it works.
The sincerity of rage against the accused is irrelevant.
All one has to do is sub a young black man accused of shoplifting by an evil white supremacist in wherever you imagine KKK justice rules to understand the importance of evidence that a crime has been committed well enough.
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)Hey, these are white males accused of lynching a black man in 1920's Mississippi. You ain't gonna get a conviction, so get over it.
albacore
(2,398 posts)If the trumpsters still don't see it, and we end up with something like him in our WH... well, we tried. We lost the country, be we tried the legal remedy.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)who already deny everything. ALL will point to it as further, UNDENIABLE PROOF of persecution of conservatives by the Democrats who are busily "PURGING" them from society.
Yeah, "purging's" a favorite word now. Started at least during Obama's presidency with trains filled with conservatives shipped to undisclosed locations to the "west" and never seen again (or before for that matter).
Evolve Dammit
(16,697 posts)It won't matter if they deny it or say their words were misconstrued or "I was joking" which 45 used repeatedly. They planned it, funded it, executed it and the evidence will show that in texts, emails, social media and National Archive records he is desperately trying to suppress. If there is any justice left in America, "they" will rightly be charged and prosecuted. IF.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)that fails to convict won't convince anyone who isn't already and will be twisted to support RW lies the way everything else is. In addition, unsupported charges would be turned against us, both by honest media because it'd be extremely wrong and unethical and by RW swiftboaters who would turn Schumer's stepping accidentally on a puppy's tail into a Democratic conspiracy to kill and eat puppies.
We should also remember the truly shocking figures for those who now don't know what to think even about things for which truth was clear and obvious from the beginning.
Their brains have been scrambled. Start with sowing confusion by claiming we did it of course, add false facts expanding on why, "proof" that we're lying, more proof that we're lying and can't be trusted, demands for removal from office, new false info about what "really happened," exposure of evidence of evil Democratic conspiracy to frame thousands of conservative patriots, lots of names and facts, more "evidence" to tie it into other events; repeat, repeat, repeat until they're trained to turn off permanently.
Evolve Dammit
(16,697 posts)demand that this attempt to overthrow our government be dealt with in a public venue with coverage broader than C-Span. Hit the street time again.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)that Biden's administration is somehow corrupted. Speaking of brain scramblng, that's...quite an example.
We're seeing a lot of it right now. It suggests to me there's been a too successful effort to divert anger and distrust from the RW traitors onto our own leaders.
By whom? My guess is hostiles from both right and left, and likely overseas, all hitting the same themes to turn us on ourselves. Because without a whole lot of help, who but a few paranoid unfortunates would espond to anger against betrayal by thinking Biden, or any Democrat appointed by and responsible to him?
CloudWatcher
(1,845 posts)I'm old enough to remember people bragging about the US being a nation where the "Rule of Law" applied.
Every single day that TFG remains unindicted is another arrow through the heart of our democracy.
ymetca
(1,182 posts)So it appears we are seeing the "death by a thousand cuts" methodology being applied. Slowly grinding him into another Nixon --a sad, pathetic character in the end.
Continued public humiliation, while not satisfying in the least, is what is happening. He'll be continually dogged by our execrable legal system for the remainder of his days, until, dying not with a bang, but a whimper, his era will subside into irrelevance.
'Cause that's what we do here, it seems.
And that might actually be the best outcome, however much it REALLY sticks in my craw.
So, stick that in your eye, Putin! Nice try, anyway. Welcome to the Land of Churn and Burn, bro. More grist for the horrible mill.
oldsoftie
(12,489 posts)You're right; making him a martyr only increases his strength. Making him broke; or at least failing in business, makes him a loser; something he cannot stand. And wipes away the "successful businessman" facade he's been pushing
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)wnylib
(21,335 posts)what about the rest of the fascists who will continue the mission that they hoped for from him?
oldsoftie
(12,489 posts)wnylib
(21,335 posts)I don't think that's what would happen. TFG is just the front man for agendas that the RW has been pushing for decades. They wouldn't stop just because they didn't have him anymore. They've made enough headway with him that they could just find another front man to continue.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)By Mueller. Mueller knowing what he knew should have put country first and not a memo and went to his boss and told them this must be done. Instead he wrote a report and hoped congress would do his job or maybe DAs in NY (which has turned out to be a huge fucking joke).
If he is not charged we are done. In a few years or sooner look at Desantis or Abbott or any GOP candidate for office now Mandel, Vance, Grietiens (sp?) not to mention current GOP members from Cruz to Hawley, Brooks, Greene, Boebert, Gosar, Biggs, Cawthorn, Gaetz etc etc etc. All them flout the law like it is nothing. Our Democracy will be gone if there are not consequences for doing what DT has done
and I am just talking about him trying to overthrow the government
killing 765,000 Americans is an entirely different matter that IMO he should have already been sentenced to life in prison for.
PortTack
(32,705 posts)Snackshack
(2,541 posts)After Barr lied about what Muellers report said Mueller wrote a letter then he hemmed and hawed about testifying in front of congress. After doing that investigation and basically saying DT obstructed justice 10x and then seeing what was what with how Barr blew off his report and lied about it. Mueller should have got some intestinal fortitude and went to congress and blown the doors off the hearing room with a frank and accurate testimony. He should have said straight up if not for the OLC memo I would have charged the President with a crime.
Evolve Dammit
(16,697 posts)been pressures we cannot even imagine, but that doesn't give me any faith we will ever have justice, much less ever see his un-redacted report.
llmart
(15,532 posts)Someone please tell me why and how this criminal has gotten away with everything his entire life? He didn't just start being a mob boss or criminal or a grifter or whatever when he got in office. I'm almost as old as he is and I clearly remember many stories about him and his NY connections to criminals and his unlawful behavior at other times. He should have been indicted years ago for some of that.
How the hell does he do that? Didn't Cohen talk about how he "talks in code"? That can't possibly be the only way he gets away with it.
There really is no equal justice in this country and that isn't a new phenomenon.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)he could've been criminally investigated, charged and tried in the House the minute the House impeachment proceedings closed.
But they didn't have the stomach or spine for it and let it go.
Then the second time he was impeached, post 1/6, they caved to McConnell's request to just let everything sit for a month or so and let everything and everyone calm down.
Remember before the 2020 election when one of the motivating arguments was that if he stayed in office, the time limits on many of his crimes would run out?
Those time limits are now running out, and the Dems are letting it.
I'm so frustrated & sad. Mostly because this looking the other way, reaching across the aisle, looking forward not back is how we will lose our democracy.
CanonRay
(14,084 posts)we're fucked
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)wnylib
(21,335 posts)a conviction. Prosecution without conviction would speed up the fascist takeover process. Totally agree that we are in a very critical, dangerous situation. I want to see him and his accomplices destroyed. A conviction has a chance, although it is not a guarantee. But charges without a conviction would give them even more power and support.
Response to Atticus (Original post)
jfz9580m This message was self-deleted by its author.
SouthernDem4ever
(6,617 posts)NewHendoLib
(60,006 posts)it's as if people have no concept of human nature at all.
Crimes going unpunished just lead to more, worse crimes.
Blue Owl
(50,256 posts)Scrivener7
(50,911 posts)of justice will be the same.
Lonestarblue
(9,958 posts)Trueblue Texan
(2,419 posts)If we won't hold those accountable who inflicted the worst crimes on this nation in my lifetime, we have already lost Democracy. To hold Democracy we MUST have accountability.
KG
(28,751 posts)pandr32
(11,553 posts)RVN VET71
(2,689 posts)have come to those exact cowardly conclusions.
It is a mistake, of course, to think anything good can come out of letting crooked seditionists escape punishment for their crimes against democracy, the Constitution, and the loyal citizens of this country.
pwb
(11,246 posts)politics are the way to go with this problem. Saving the big guns stuff arrests and convictions to win the 2022 election and a couple more democratic senators.
Evolve Dammit
(16,697 posts)bluestarone
(16,859 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,044 posts)1) Discord is coming. You can be proactive and try to control the timing and boundaries, or you can ignore it and only be reactive to what the other side does.
2) Division is not scary, it's already here. It can't be divided further, it's already in halves.
3) It would not justify future prosecutions but it might provoke them. But to remove someone you need a fair jury and you require legitimate reasons for removal. If push came to shove they'd never do it for an illegitimate reason. They would be destroying themselves.
I agree, best to get a move on and prick this boil.
spanone
(135,791 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,373 posts)awaiting trial for incitement of sedition.
It's dangerous to the country to have him free and able to behave as he normally does. He wants to overthrow free and fair elections and have himself installed as a Putin wannabe President for life.