Why Many Police Traffic Stops Turn Deadly

[Nevilledog]

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Brent Staples
@BrentNYT
When a cop stops you for a broken taillight - then kills you: an ⁦@nytimes⁩ investigation of how police officers routinely go unpunished after killing unarmed motorists.
Pulled over for tinted windows.

Why Many Police Traffic Stops Turn Deadly
Officers, trained to presume danger, have reacted with outsize aggression. For hundreds of unarmed drivers, the consequences have been fatal.
nytimes.com
6:37 AM · Oct 31, 2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/31/us/police-traffic-stops-killings.html

No paywall
https://archive.ph/rEaMn

*snip*

“We get into what I would call anticipatory killings,” said Sim Gill, the district attorney for Salt Lake County, Utah. “We can’t give carte blanche to that.”

Whenever any kind of encounter between law enforcement and citizens ends in a loss of life, it is highly regrettable. When that loss of life is avoidable, it becomes more so. But where the legal standard for justification on the use of force is met, criminal prosecution is not an available remedy to address it.

In case after case, officers said they had feared for their lives. And in case after case, prosecutors declared the killings of unarmed motorists legally justifiable. But The Times reviewed video and audio recordings, prosecutor statements and court documents, finding patterns of questionable police conduct that went beyond recent high-profile deaths of unarmed drivers. Evidence often contradicted the accounts of law enforcement officers.

Dozens of encounters appeared to turn on what criminologists describe as officer-created jeopardy: Officers regularly — and unnecessarily — placed themselves in danger by standing in front of fleeing vehicles or reaching inside car windows, then fired their weapons in what they later said was self-defense. Frequently, officers also appeared to exaggerate the threat.

In many cases, local police officers, state troopers or sheriff’s deputies responded with outsize aggression to disrespect or disobedience — a driver talking back, revving an engine or refusing to get out of a car, what officers sometimes call “contempt of cop.”

*snip*

[The Magistrate]

1. It's A wretched Business, Ma'am

When confronting an unarmed person, any claim by a police officer he or she feared for their lives should be accompanied by forfeiture of badge and gun, as cowardice is and ought to be a disqualifying trait for such employment.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. +1

Being so fearful of every situation that one's first instinct is to draw the gun seems completely at odds with the attributes needed.
We had a friend (now deceased due to complications of diabetes) was a cop from the time he got back as an MP in Vietnam. Went to the academy for 6 months and started working as a cop at 22.
He retired at 63, rising to the rank of captain for a force in a city of 150,000. Not exactly Mayberry.
He told me he draw his pistol ONCE in 41 years. A guy grabbed a crowbar and started coming toward him. All he said was "I'm a pretty good shot & you're 20 feet away.". Guy dropped the crowbar. Back-up arrived. Guys were arrested and situation over.
He didn't draw & shoot. He drew & deescalated. ONE TIME IN 41 YEARS!
But, he didn't have a mean bone in his body, so he was right for the job.

[Jedi Guy]

11. And in the moment of confrontation, how is the cop supposed to know whether the person is armed?

Just because their hands are empty at that moment doesn't mean they're unarmed and/or not dangerous. I've seen bodycam footage where officers walk up to a guy in an alleyway in Chicago, and the fellow's hands are empty. Then he dips for his gun, draws, and tries to John Wick all three cops. There was also an officer-involved shooting wherein the person who was shot took a two-handed shooter's stance and pointed an object at officers. The object turned out to be a vape pen.

The certainty that a person is/was unarmed may only come after the fact. This is why use of deadly force is judged to be reasonable or not based on what the officer knew at that moment.

[The Magistrate]

17. Sad

Do not try and defend cowardice, it is unseemly in a gentleman.


"You have been given a position of honor. You will have casualties, because they will interfere with your work. And on the day they decide, they will fall upon you and massacre you to the last man, and it is your duty to die."

[Jedi Guy]

18. Whatever. N/T

[The Magistrate]

19. Compare The Rates, Sweetheart

Police here kill at something like twenty times the per capita rate of European police forces.

Your argument amounts to stating it is better a couple of dozen people get shot, who pose no threat to an officer, in a crisis the officer contrived over a trifle, rather than that one officer buy the farm.

That's not arithmetic supportable by anyone with any sense of human worth and dignity.

[Jedi Guy]

20. Whatever, "sweetheart." I said no such thing. N/T

[The Magistrate]

21. You Just Can't Defend It Wheh Called On It

It's what your position amounts to. If you do not like it stated flatly, find some other view to uphold.

[Jedi Guy]

24. Oh please.

The reality is that sometimes cops are in the right when they shoot people, even if those people turn out to be unarmed. Sometimes they are not. It varies from one situation to another, because no two are exactly identical. For an example of the former, think Michael Brown. For an example of the latter, think Walter Scott.

An officer cannot know with 100% certainty that a person is unarmed until that person has been searched for weapons. Given how common guns are in America, it's not unreasonable for cops to hold that view. My old department did a study that concluded that 70% of the vehicles involved in traffic stops contained a gun. Comparing American streets to European streets is laughable for that exact reason.

What leaves me utterly gobsmacked is that you castigate me for supposedly not caring if people die while you made it very, very clear that you don't care a fig if officers are killed.

However, all that I've said is clearly wasted, since you're not interested in any kind of discussion and just want to scream "bLuE mAn BaD." So you carry on doing that, and I'll carry on with my evening. Henceforth, I shall do something more productive than engaging with you. Have a good night, "sweetheart."

[The Magistrate]

28. Flat Nonesense

When an armed agent of the state kills an unarmed citizen, a serious wrong has been done.

Your attempt to pretend otherwise says something unpleasant about your attitudes towards authority and violence.

You are correct that I consider a person who has been given arms and the authority of the state to be placing themselves at some risk the general run of citizens do not face. That is a choice freely made by accepting the employment.

Your position amounts to what I have described, that the officer's life is worth the lives of a good many citizens. Since the fact is that in a great proportion of instances where an officer shoots an unarmed citizen, the officer was not under any real threat, it is a simple matter to produce a ratio --- the number of police killed by citizens the officer took to be unarmed but actually were not, compared to the number of unarmed citizens killed by police.

When wielding deadly force you do not get to make mistakes, and are wholly responsible for any error you make. Police officers who claim to be in fear for their lives from an unarmed citizen, and kill the citizen, are not fit for the job, and ought to be personally and criminally liable for the cowardice and extremely poor judgement they displayed.

[snowybirdie]

2. Thank you

for providing the no pay wall link. I wish the author had defined what he means by "many". What are the statistics supporting his conclusions? How often does this happen compared with number of stops nationwide? What areas are showing this trend? Or is the writer just speculating from news reports he's studied with no real numbers to back this up? I'm never in favor of over the top policing, believe me. But this article just adds fuel to the fire and not honest discussion.

[Jedi Guy]

13. I was able to find some statistics from 2018 to help answer this question.

There were 31,129,900 contacts between police/citizens that were either initiated by police or the result of a traffic accident. The DOJ stats aren't broken down further than that, so some of those contacts are police knocking on doors, approaching on foot, etc.

Of those, 2.8% (871,637) experienced nonfatal use or threat of force. Police killed 996 people in 2018, so even if we lump all of those in, we still end up with less than 3% of police-initiated contacts involving force or threats of force of any kind.

[dsc]

23. If teachers used force 3% of the time they came in contact with school children

school buildings would, justifiably be razed by mobs of angry parents.

[Jedi Guy]

25. Yes, because that's absolutely a valid comparison... N/T

[dsc]

26. why isn't it?

we are always out numbered, the kids can be armed, and we have to tell kids to do things they don't wish to do. I really do get a bit tired of hearing about people who are armed, often outnumber those they face, being excused for mowing down people in hails of gunfire.

[Jedi Guy]

27. So you're honestly comparing kids breaking school rules to adults breaking laws?

Sending a kid to after-school detention for an afternoon or a week as opposed to sending an adult to jail/prison for months or years? I might have to google "how to explain the obvious" here, because the fact that you seem to think this is a valid comparison leaves me utterly speechless.

Cops are going to have to use force sometimes. I'm stunned that this is a revelation to some people.

[uponit7771]

31. Yeah but they've lost the benefit of the doubt on that "use of force" now and some are ...

... refusing to wear body cams or throw them off of them like in Floyd case.

The "afraid for their lives" bullshit went out the door they fought the vaccine mandates seeing covid was the thing killing most cops by far.

No, their former benefit of the doubt is done

[Jedi Guy]

36. I still give the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is done.

I don't automatically assume that the cop or the person (or their family, as the case may be) is lying. That's what investigations are for: finding out the truth of what happened. Then we go from there, and if charges are brought, a jury decides.

And I agree, every cop in the country should wear a body cam when on duty, full stop. Take it off or turn it off, and you're gone. Body cams protect everyone. If I were a cop I'd be glad to have one.

The fact remains that there are going to be times when "I was afraid for my life" is legit because they can't know for certain if someone is armed or not and have to make a split-second decision. This is, once again, why uses of force are judged on what the officer knew in that moment, rather than what was learned after the fact. The Supreme Court decided that over 30 years ago in Graham v. Connor.

[dsc]

32. Tell it to Tamir rice

No wait you can't he's dead

[Jedi Guy]

37. Timothy Loehmann should never have been a cop to begin with.

Cleveland screwed up by not requesting his personnel file from his previous department. Dispatch screwed up by not relaying crucial information to the officers. Loehmann screwed up most of all by just opening fire without assessing the situation, since he gave Rice no chance to comply.

All of that doesn't change the fact that there are times when force, including lethal force, is legitimate and unfortunately necessary.

[Hortensis]

34. Lol. Most of this thread strikes me as appallingly dishonest

and even irrational in support of exreme, unbalanced attitudes. The spirit of the times, but DU's catching up to the rest of the country fast.

Anyway, the chuckle and reminder that there is such a thing as truth are especially appreciated.

[Jedi Guy]

38. Yeah, the anti-cop extremism on DU is something else, especially for a "reality based community."

I'd argue that DU is more extreme than the majority of the country, though. But then, most people on DU probably know jack about police work and the laws/rulings that govern it, and have no interest in learning, so here we are.

[hunter]

39. I take it you've never had a personally terrifying encounter with the police...

... or seen them use excessive force or shoot people in a careless manner and for no good reason.

I have.

But even if I hadn't, I still like to think I'd recognize that something is horribly wrong with police culture in the U.S.A..

[Jedi Guy]

40. You are incorrect.

I have had a personally frightening encounter with the police. Twice, actually. Both times I stayed calm, did as I was asked/told, and at the end of the encounter the officers apologized for interrupting my day and no one was the worse for wear.

If you've seen what you believe to be excessive force or officers carelessly shooting people for no good reason, I urge you to report those incidents so they can be properly investigated.

I've never claimed that there's nothing wrong with police culture in the US. But neither will I bow to a claim that isn't supported by facts and evidence. Out of 61.5 million cop/citizen interactions in 2018, 2% involved the use or threat of force. Actual use of force is thus below that 2% figure. That isn't indicative of rampant police brutality, in my opinion. If you feel differently, that's fine. Reasonable people can disagree.

[hunter]

41. I got away with a lot of shit when I was a wild young thing because I was white.

And no, I was not always calm and respectful. But mostly the police considered me a humorous diversion from their more sordid late night duties. These were the same police whose favorite sport was harassing black people. Fortunately for me I was never violent.

I really didn't learn how to act calm and respectful until I was 25 years old or so.

I'll leave you to your comfortable fantasy that everything will be properly investigated and that all is in order. I will confess that I'll probably never serve on a jury in this county because of my outspokenness. The last time I reported for jury duty I got the peremptory challenge from the prosecutor before I even got the chance to say anything.

In my small city the police shoot a few people every year, too often the same sorts of troubled people unarmed English or Japanese cops deal with calmly and without bloodshed.

[Jedi Guy]

43. I didn't say anything about being respectful.

I said I was calm and did as I was asked/told, such as keeping my hands in plain sight and providing ID. If you're being detained or arrested, respect is optional. Cops can't make you respect them, but they absolutely can (and will) make you put your hands behind your back so they can cuff you.

Again, if you've seen what you believe to be excessive force or cops shooting people for no reason, all I can advise is that you report it. Doing otherwise accomplishes nothing, and since I wasn't there, I can't comment on what you believe happened regarding those events.

Police brutality is a real thing and only a fool would claim otherwise, but the statistics do not support the notion that it's rampant, or even a common occurrence. Again, less than 2% of 61.5 million interactions involve force of any kind.

I've seen enough instances of people lying about it not to take witness accounts at face value, so therein lies the value of investigations. If the investigation doesn't support the conclusion you've already reached, though, clearly that must mean the fix is in, right?

As I stated upthread, comparing European or Japanese cops to American cops won't wash. Apples to bowling balls, given how many people in America routinely walk around with guns on them. That said, I'll agree that cops generally aren't trained to deal with most mental health crises, and I can tell you that cops absolutely hate going to those calls. They'd be glad to be shed of that responsibility.

[Hortensis]

44. What's the term for when people have no way to answer

a statement so instead claim something ridiculously wrong was said and pretend to answer that? I always forget the word.

The point is balance, truth, honesty, truth, reality, decency, truth. All things that are supposed to make us different from those people we've come to despise. Including really bad cops.

Btw, from your own account I've had more personal experiences, including abuse, with bad police than you, and seen more. But that's not the point. Honesty and decency are, the ability to make responsible choices as a citizen. You've obviously a lot more experiences with decent, competent cops also. I have too. Almost everyone does.

[hunter]

45. Making apologies for all those "good apples" sweeps the horrors under the rug.

I'm not going to post details, but I know the exact incident that made me unpopular with the local police department. One of their officers dropped a potential weapon (not a gun) at an incident where violence was an imminent possibility. In the heat of the moment all the officers ran off after the suspect and I, being a good citizen, returned the dropped weapon to the police department. They did not thank me.

I've also been outspoken about my opposition to police in public schools, especially armed police, starting from the time I was a public school teacher and "just said no" to the DARE officers.

I know and have known decent competent cops, probation officers, prison guards, etc.. I'm involved in ways that would have shocked my younger self.

But until we admit there is a problem nothing is going to change.

For me a lot of it has to do with gun culture. In my personal experience once the guns come out everything is FUBAR.

Seriously, I don't think most cops have the temperament or skills to carry guns while avoiding the FUBAR, not even in "self defense." Maybe especially not in "self defense."

Parking enforcement officers and bus drivers deal with more irate people, some of them armed, every day than cops do but nobody thinks it would be normal for them carry firearms.

[Blue Owl]

3. We already know many police officers are MAGAts...

And MAGAts get off on being "the victim" -- so in a sick twisted way it makes some sense that they would try and portray themselves as 'the victim' to force their will on others...

[stillcool]

4. they are hunters, and we are their prey

they don't let pass any opportunity to light up an 'unfriendly'.

[sop]

5. It's their training. Cops are taught everyone presents a threat and all encounters are potentially

deadly. Add an unreasonable belief that most minorities are violent criminals and you're left with a bunch of trigger happy cops eager to gun down anyone who fails to comply.

[KentuckyWoman]

6. I personally know 3 people who have left their police jobs.

One retired early and the other two are still "in the business" but not on patrols. All three said their decision had more to do with giving up trying to make things better from within. Three officers in 3 different departments, felt the "good cops" were in such a minority that they had to give up the good fight and move on.

The man who retired early said they'd get better training if they watched more Mayberry and less Dirty Harry. He was only partly kidding. He said police aren't being trained to diffuse. They are being taught to enforce and where the line is.

[tulipsandroses]

7. People need to stand up and make police depts accountable

We the people pay for their misdeeds and for hiring incompetence. Why are they not held to the same standards as other professionals that have people’s lives in their hands? Imagine a nurse or doctor that negligently causes death and injury . Often repeatedly, and no action is taken. As a nurse, I find it even more outrageous.
In our profession, we know med errors happen. They can be deadly. We have acknowledged it and continue to take steps to prevent them.
Police won’t even acknowledge this is a problem despite countless deaths.

Police already take up the most of city budgets. Then add the lawsuits that we pay for, I do t see how more people are not enraged and demand change. If not for the humane aspect, the money taxpayers pay, and mind you, the money should. Going after these ticky tacky offenses do not make us safer.

I have long said, they should be required to have malpractice insurance.

[LiberalFighter]

9. Too many cops are the aggressors.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. FTP. K&R.

[multigraincracker]

12. K&R

[hunter]

14. Why? Because police have guns but most of them don't have the temperament or wisdom...

... that might qualify them to carry firearms in a sane society.

It's that simple.

[PurgedVoter]

15. One has to ask, how many cops are doing drug and slave traffic?

Since we are seeing them filmed killing, brutalizing and abusing people in broad daylight, what are they doing in the background? If brutal murder with a video proving it doesn't turn the police against the police and makes them join ranks to defend each other, what other crimes are normal, everyday things?

[Crunchy Frog]

16. Covid has shown that the "feared for their lives" claim is completely bogus.

If they were genuinely afraid of dying, they would get vaccinated, and I'd be willing to bet that there's a strong correlation between cops who use excessive force, and cops who refuse vaccination.

It really is all about outsized aggression, needing to dominate other people, and fear of being disrespected or dominated by anyone else. (I believe that submitting to vaccination is seen as submitting to someone else's authority, and that's why it's so feared.)

The old excuses will never cut it with me again.

[uponit7771]

30. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 1 million recs of this !!

[Buckeye_Democrat]

22. I'm convinced that of many them enjoy imposing...

... on others. Then they commit the ultimate imposition, killing someone who wasn't posing harm to them or anyone else, if they feel disrespected for causing the conflict.

My neighbor lady's son is a cop. She told me during a recent phone conversation that he was poking fun at a car that he rented, which was a Toyota Prius because the rental company didn't have the vehicle he requested. He told her it was "emasculating" to drive that car! Really?!

I asked her what vehicle her son owned, but then I said, "Let me guess! A big pickup truck, and maybe a Harley motorcycle!" She was amazed that I was correct on BOTH counts, and she wanted to know how I knew! I didn't bother explaining that her son is obviously insecure about his "manhood", not wanting to insult her family. So I instead claimed it was a lucky guess.

[uponit7771]

29. K&R, "officer-created jeopardy"

[Solly Mack]

33. "contempt of cop"? More like weak-minded and insecure cops licking their wounds by killing those

who see them for what they really are - cowards with a gun.

[Hortensis]

35. We all know police killings, including what amount to executions,

have been going up, that most cops believe they can kill without risk of prosecution, that this dreadful situation has to be reversed.

I believe this trend is an indication of growing RW authoritianism in many communities.

But in the interest of perspective, because none of us want to be as dumb as trumpists, here's some information.

According to Campaign Zero, in 2020 nationally, 1,127 people were killed by police, 96% by guns.
121 of those were traffic stops.

According to a Stanford study, police make over 50,000 traffic stops a day, over 20,000,000 per year.

So here we are:

121 civilian deaths during traffic stops are "many."
121 deaths per 20,000,000 traffic stops may be too many, but numerically 0.000605% is not "many."

[Deminpenn]

42. This is a must read

It's the law of unintended consequences writ large.