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Tue Nov 2, 2021, 12:52 AM

I'm concerned about the trending

Last edited Tue Nov 2, 2021, 04:05 AM - Edit history (1)

downer talk about dismal chances at Midterms. I don't mind cautionary alertness, etc., but why talk defeatist when we need to rev up and fight once again? Our best weapons are our votes. People won't turn out if they feel emotionally defeated. We did an outstanding job the last time. Now we need to do it again. We can do it again!

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Reply I'm concerned about the trending (Original post)
EndlessWire Nov 2021 OP
elleng Nov 2021 #1
DanieRains Nov 2021 #2
SoCalDavidS Nov 2021 #3
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #19
BadgerMom Nov 2021 #4
riversedge Nov 2021 #5
MFM008 Nov 2021 #6
Silent3 Nov 2021 #10
markpkessinger Nov 2021 #13
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #17
uponit7771 Nov 2021 #23
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #24
uponit7771 Nov 2021 #22
Silent3 Nov 2021 #7
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #16
Nokillmessanger Nov 2021 #8
Celerity Nov 2021 #11
betsuni Nov 2021 #9
NullTuples Nov 2021 #12
ShazzieB Nov 2021 #14
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #15
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2021 #20
NullTuples Nov 2021 #21
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2021 #26
Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2021 #18
Mad_Machine76 Nov 2021 #25
Polybius Nov 2021 #27
EndlessWire Nov 2021 #28

Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 12:57 AM

1. Right.

Thanks.

MUCH too much of it.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 12:57 AM

2. Stop Republicans Or Democracy Dies

 

Our message.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:01 AM

3. It's All About Accountability

My thinking is that the lack of any success in the 1/6 investigation, enough Democrats will be demoralized, and won't turn out to vote next year.

I'm not talking about folks like us on DU, who will vote regardless of how depressed or uninspired we may be. I'm talking about the swing voters who will make the difference between controlling the House & Senate, to losing both.

Speaking for myself, after watching the criminals get away with their crimes YET AGAIN, I'm not going to be as optimistic about the future. Right now I feel the country is fucked either way. It just will be much more fucked if the repubs are in control, and the descent to fascism that much more obvious. But we're headed that way regardless.

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Response to SoCalDavidS (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:52 AM

19. But, we don't have to be headed that way.

I think examining our motives and attitudes is worthwhile. Do we want to super punish the 1/6 attendees, or do we want to give up the House and Senate, and thereby make 1/6 irrelevant? We can't let voters feel like everything hinges on conviction of 1/6 rioters, anymore than the fate of the Country hinges on passage of a strong infrastructure bill.

These two things may be disappointing, but they are only two events and should not be dispositive of the entire Country. Some other message has to be delivered to the swing voters. Do they want to live in a fascist country, or do they want to remain a representative Democracy where they can live peacefully in freedom and the pursuit of happiness? Do they really want to return to the chaotic, lying Trump dynasty, or do they like the calmness and sensibility of Biden's administration? It isn't too late to deliver these messages.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:39 AM

4. Bingo!!!

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:43 AM

5. We need more picker uppers like you just did. Thanks

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:49 AM

6. its all designed

to try to depress our turnout.....................period.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:56 AM

10. Bull fucking shit

Show me solid scientific data that only bright, cheerful, hopeful people get out and vote. It goes both ways.

Some people don't vote when things are looking good because they don't think their vote isn't needed, others don't vote when they don't think the effort will pay off.

I've never heard one solid bit of evidence or data one way or another that those effects don't simply cancel out. Until someone can prove it, I'm fucking sick and tired of hearing, year after year, one group moaning about depressed voters and another group moaning about complacent voters.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 02:59 AM

13. +1000!

Thank you!

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:39 AM

17. I don't need to show you scientific proof.

I don't mind broadening the argument; this is interesting. However, how can I say this, this is not helping. WE ARE AT WAR WITH REPUBS. If you don't think so, think of this as their way of taking territory that we can't even fight over. Each state has to fight for their space. If they are not encouraged to do so, then, of course they will lose what they have. If they don't figure it out, then we will all be lost.

You think of it as an equation. But, depressed v. complacent isn't exactly a sound argument. Those are both negative values. My point is that we need energy to get where we want to go, and there is more energy in being positive than there is in being negative. People have to storm the Hill feeling like they can get to the top. No one gets motivated by some Captain saying, "Troops, you are going to die." No football quarterback ever motivated his team by saying, "Sure, we are too far behind to win now, but let's go out and get hurt anyway!" You always emphasize the possibility that you actually can win SOMETHING.

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Response to EndlessWire (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 08:58 PM

23. You need to show something factual then, anecdotes get us bent too many times

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 3, 2021, 12:21 AM

24. No, I don't.

It's a silly idea that I would have to prove that using your vote to get rid of fascists is a good idea, better than the downer rhetoric that the other guy provides, and better than fighting a civil war with them. You get "bent" over talk about how to succeed? I am not allowed to say anything against anyone on this board or any Democrat. So, I'm going to follow that rule. But, I don't feel like I have to prove anything to you. If you want to wallow in despair over the future of our country, please move out of our way.

Just so you know for sure, I hate Trump, the GOP, and anyone who threatens our country from within. I am tired of hearing people on this board informing others that we have lost already, that we will be a fascist country, and basically, "why bother?" That's what it amounts to, really. That's not at all helpful. We are watching the slide into fascism with astounding apathy; people who have had freedom all their lives can't conceive that it could happen here. But you can't just do nothing, and We The People better treat our votes like weapons and find a way to get there and vote. them. out. of. office. They have found a way to manipulate our own laws against us, and before you know it, the only safe person in the country will be a Christian, white male who kisses Trump's ample ass. What part of those facts don't you get?

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 08:57 PM

22. +1

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:50 AM

7. If we don't pass voter protection it might be difficult to impossible outdo vote suppression

A plucky, positive attitude can only accomplish so much in the face of implacable corruption. And the way things are going, I certainly don't think we can count on Manchin or Sinema to budge one bit on the filibuster to help pass voting protection or anything else.

If those two screw on on BBB, then Democrats are not going to be too popular come 2022, on top of the voter suppression and the normal headwinds going against the party of a President during the midterms.

Oh, I'll still make my best efforts, but I have very good reason to worry that best efforts won't be enough.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:26 AM

16. Well, I understand

how you feel. There are probably also some bewildered Repub voters who don't want to live under fascism, either. There are probably millions of people, ordinary citizens who are apolitical and want this fight to be over.

You have to start somewhere. The first step is getting the vote in. Then, if the vote is purloined or corrupted, at least you did it. What a fight we had, and still are having. This to me is blatant evilness. Not subtle leanings, but outright purely evil intent by Donald Trump's Party.

Yes, the President is in a fight, with Repubs and the pseudo-Dems Manchin and Sinema. I think that he knew very well that this was going to be a Congressional war against Repubs everywhere. He may be surprised by Manchin, but he isn't stupid, and he has a lot of support in the Congress as well as in the Country.

We can still win. We need a massive push back. If we don't supply this one way or another, we will end up under the rule of fascists, and the country will be gone. But, it makes no sense to give up and reconcile to this BEFORE we fight. No war was won that way.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:51 AM

8. Agreed

 

There are several trolls hanging around here.

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Response to Nokillmessanger (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 02:15 AM

11. welcome to DU

on your first day

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 01:53 AM

9. If we're bombarded with bullshit "disappointed" "I'm not inspired" "teach Democrats a lesson"

"holding feet to the fire" because they tried to pass progressive legislature and didn't have enough votes ...



The Obama administration managed to save the economy and pass the ACA. Republicans take the House. The Clinton administration tried to pass health care reform, failed. Republicans take the House. Build Back Better passes or doesn't, same "disappointed" "crumbs" "they control the government and still don't do anything, don't vote" garbage will be out there.

Now that people are more aware of misinformation, maybe they won't be so quick to fall for the garbage. It's everywhere.

I look at DU and see scolding about messaging, which I don't get. Messaging to which part of the big tent Democratic Party, to independents, to Republicans? Obsessing that Democrats aren't on TV all the time (they do not have their own media empire, duh). That nobody knows what's in the BBB bills (who knows what's in most bills? There are always rumors about diabolically hidden things (like in the TPP) that aren't there -- some politicians vote against bills because of things they think are in there and aren't!). Predicting that if Trump and Republicans aren't convicted of crimes, Americans will be so mad they'd rather not vote for Democrats and let R's take over again -- how in the hell does that make sense?). "Why did Democrats let/allow (bad thing here) to happen?"

No good reason for the constant negativity.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 02:37 AM

12. "Our best weapons are our votes" - Out best weapon was protecting the vote

We lost that, there's no longer time.

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Response to NullTuples (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:07 AM

14. Oh, okay.

So it sounds like you're saying we should all just give up, because it's already over, we've already lost everything, nothing good can possibly happen, ever again, etc.

If that's NOT what you intended to convey, then please feel free to clarify. That's exa ctlyvwhzt it sounded like to me.

And if that IS what you meant to convey or not, I refuse to accept it, because that way lies nothing but gloom, doom, and defeat. If I believed that, I wouldn't even be posting here. I would literally be researching painless methods of suicide and buying a bunch of life insurance so that my husband could have something to live on comfortably when I'm gone. Because I would really not see much point in sticking around any longer than I have to.

Don't worry, folks, I am NOT suicidal. I promise! The point I'm trying to make is that if I let myself start thinking as negatively as some of the posts here sound, I probably WOULD be suicidal before long -- and I am too damned ornery and scrappy to go there.

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Response to NullTuples (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:08 AM

15. "Where there's a will, there's a way."

Don't get me wrong. I may be older, but if there is a civil war, I will fight in the name of my family and ancestors. But, I'd rather put one helluva effort in GOTV once again. We CAN'T let them take the House. Protecting the vote might mean simply porting your vote to the polls. Protecting the vote might mean making sure you are on the rolls of eligible voters.

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Response to NullTuples (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 04:12 AM

20. "We lost that, there's no longer time" is an EXAMPLE of what the OP and I are against!


I wish posters would stop closing doors in our faces and work instead to open them and keep them open.

You are entitled to make your post. It violates no rules of DU, and it is only the post we are discussing, not the person. However, about that post, ...

You made a bald, black-and-white negative statement.
You just left it there, like a turd, stinking up the room with doom and gloom.
Your direct implication (because it is so terse) is that nothing can be done.

If you had something other than doom to offer you would offer it. When you say "there is no longer time" (a false statement) you are closing the door.

You offer not a single line of discussion.
You state it as if it is a fact when it is not.

Fundamentally your statement is an example of the binary all-or-nothing fallacy. It acts as if the 12 months and 36 months to the next major elections are meaningless and they don''t exist. As if there is nothing anybody can do in 12 months to protect the vote or get out the vote. That is false. There is much that can be done. Voter suppression legislation in progress must be fought. Court challenges must be mounted. Voters must be assisted in registering and voting. Voters must be informed of their rights, their means and ways to register and to vote. And more. It is NOT lost. It is NOT over.

Indulging in fallacious binary thinking is a lazy trap. Don't fall into it and especially don't spread it.

Please.



In my opinion, posts like yours are simply a drag on Democrats and have no place here. Please.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 08:56 PM

21. I think you mistake my anger & frustration for resignation.

Perhaps I did not express it well; for that I apologize.

We need to find ways to put a real fire under the feet of our Democratic Party leaders in Washington, D.C.. to stop Senators Kyrsten Sinema & Joe Manchin. They've both proved repeatedly that our leadership no longer has anything to lose by playing hardball. Yet time after time, our leaders capitulate instead.

We really did already lose that battle over voting rights. Even if the filibuster is abolished by next January, there won't be time to put protective laws in place before the 2022 elections. And it's not likely the filibuster will be abolished, as Congressional Dems did not even capitalize on January 6th, instead choosing to wait a month for Trump's impeachment trial at McConnell's request to "let everyone cool down". That was a golden moment, strategy-wise. At this point there seems to be even less appetite for such fights.

We dropped the ball with Trump, too; another chance to shift public opinion & thus Congressional reactions. The big threat of a second term was that time limits would run out on his federal crimes. That's happening anyway b/c we're letting them go to focus on January 6th. But pretty much everyone knows he won't be taken down for it.

Even now, subpoenas regarding January 6th are going ignored and not enforced.

We've lost control of the ball & that does not bode well for the game, as the clock really is running out.

Insofar as fighting voter suppression laws in court, Republicans know that with only 12 months left, they can easily run out the clock. It's part of their brand. And the McConnell-packed Supreme Court has made it clear they want nothing to do with protecting elections, claiming it's not their jurisdiction.

So no, I don't believe it's "all or nothing". But I also don't believe in promoting the fantasy that we can still secure the elections and even if we don't, just by getting out the vote we can - once again - overwhelm Republican manipulation of our elections with greater numbers. They've been fine tuning their gaming of election results for the last two decades & now control enough states to do a proper job of it.



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Response to NullTuples (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 3, 2021, 04:08 AM

26. Thank you for expressing yourself much more clearly

The obstacles you identify are high and daunting.

I don't know how to handle Manchin and Sinema. Much depends on a political calculus by Biden as to whether it is better to win a stunted Build Back Better or to use a blocked vote as a weapon.

But on the John Lewis Act and voting rights, there needs to be a steely resolve, and if Manchin and Sinema try to block it, burn them (metaphorically). I think there is sufficient resolve among Democrats that Manchin and Sinema are not going to block it.

I too worry about justice being hammered down on the the tRump gang and their collaborators, but it really does take time. Look at the case stemming from the 2017 white supremacy rally in Charlottesville. Four years in the making. So I think it is much too soon to give up and declare that there will be no prosecutions or justice. Same goes for the Insurrectionists and their conspirators.

As to get out the vote, there is no fantasy, just a lot of hard work to win some and lose some. Good Democrats are working hard and smarter to win more than they lose. Stacy Abrams got out the vote for the Georgia Senate races when people didn't give her much chance. Obama won twice by having a smarter ground game than the Republiqons.

However, there are very positive trends, notably in demographics, and among the young. The US is fundamentally progressive, liberal, and Democratic.

The fundamental problem is the anti-democratic structure of the Senate that gives voters in Wyoming and Montana 70 times the power in the Senate as California voters.

It warps the country.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Tue Nov 2, 2021, 03:46 AM

18. Stomp on defeatist nihilistic talk when you see it here. Support realistic concerns,


... especially if strategy and tactics and actions are suggested.

Self-defeating gloom and doom and darkness and hand-wringing all do the work for the opponents.

Call it out when it rears it's ugly rear end.

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Wed Nov 3, 2021, 12:38 AM

25. The defeatism has been thick for this past year

Despite our triumph in 2020. Things still suck but we’re still better off than we were 2017-2021

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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)

Wed Nov 3, 2021, 04:19 AM

27. If the midterms were today we'd lose 50 seats

I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. With that being said, a lot can happen in a year.

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Response to Polybius (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:46 AM

28. I'm not saying

to be a Pollyanna. I'm saying FIGHT, and don't give up. Don't quit. Don't tell everyone that we have lost before we even have had the election. Let's go! Pushback is required now.

We can see that the Repubs have plotted a campaign to destroy our votes. We see on a daily basis how they are changing the lines, spewing forth rhetoric designed to weaken us, even if it is a blatant lie. They are taking tangible steps to win, and we are not.

They used radio, TV, and legislators themselves to put their message under the voters noses. People are human. If you tell them something over and over and over again, that's what they are going to remember. It is time we did the same. Where are those rich guys who helped to get Biden elected? Could they not use some of their bucks to help rid us of this threat to our way of life? I'm talking media here, support that is beyond the means of the average citizen.

Why can't we tell THEM over and over and over again that we don't LIKE what they are selling, and that if they want bipartisan friendship, they need to stop attacking our country.

Look what they did! They are now framing the fight in OUR terms of "saving the country." They got that from us.

I find it really unbelievable that this is still happening to our country. But when they brought in that golden statue of Trump to their meeting, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. That's trouble.

I'm not asking that people stop considering the danger. But, we can't win if we are telling people over and over and over again that we have already lost. We need to support Biden even if he doesn't get everything perfect. What we have now is far, far better than what we had. Four years of Trump, and we are all fatigued from the chaos. I, myself, am extremely grateful that they cut Trump off from social media so we don't have to listen to the press telling us what evil thing he said today.

I appreciate what you said. I get it. But, we better brighten the horizon for people NOW. We need to tell the voters something positive. Hell, we'd be better off if we invented a money benefit to put CASH in everyone's pocket. They'd respond to that. Give everyone $50 a month for nothing, and then tell them where that came from. Or something like that. Manchin doesn't like a trillion bucks left in the infrastructure bill? Then, give it to the people and put Biden's name on it. "Biden's Bucks." Let him use his executive powers for something to turn this around.

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