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Best response to "CRT makes white kids feel bad about themselves!" (Original Post) TomDaisy Nov 2021 OP
Good one, almost all of these stories about kids going home and saying they are being taught Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #1
Change 'CRT' to 'religion' canuckledragger Nov 2021 #3
I agree that this likely never happens. Caliman73 Nov 2021 #4
exactly TomDaisy Nov 2021 #5
It is not made up and never happened as you claimed in another thread Claustrum Nov 2021 #8
Funny, I was a kid when I rejected the concept of original sin thrust on me from sunday school Devil Child Nov 2021 #2
We have a family friend - a very accomplished woman malaise Nov 2021 #9
"Why, yes - as a matter of fact, I have. soldierant Nov 2021 #16
Those monsters apparently didn't malaise Nov 2021 #18
Yes, you're right, they hadn't. soldierant Nov 2021 #19
Blackshear clearly read the teachings of Marcus Garvey malaise Nov 2021 #21
Blackshear clearly read the teachings of Marcus Garvey malaise Nov 2021 #22
Counter-response: nobody from outside makes the kid go to church. brooklynite Nov 2021 #6
This nt cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 #11
But somebody from outside does make us pay for them . . . hatrack Nov 2021 #17
That's when you say, 'honey, we're Calvinists, so Haggard Celine Nov 2021 #7
I suppose that Calvinists don't have missionaries. LastDemocratInSC Nov 2021 #10
The hardcore ones don't. Haggard Celine Nov 2021 #12
All of the New England Puritans were Calvinists. wnylib Nov 2021 #20
Thanks for the information about the Puritans. Haggard Celine Nov 2021 #23
My history classes didn't cover wnylib Nov 2021 #26
I absolutely agree with that. Haggard Celine Nov 2021 #27
Totally agree about the Dominionists. wnylib Nov 2021 #28
My sister married into the Church of Christ Wednesdays Nov 2021 #29
Thanks, that's an idea I haven't heard. Haggard Celine Nov 2021 #30
I never felt bad about myself learning about slavery because I didn't identify with the slavers unblock Nov 2021 #13
that is good. barbtries Nov 2021 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author Demsrule86 Nov 2021 #15
Only the ones who don't understand it. meadowlander Nov 2021 #24
Jean Calvin was more or less the ayatollah of Geneva Klaralven Nov 2021 #25

Eliot Rosewater

(31,113 posts)
1. Good one, almost all of these stories about kids going home and saying they are being taught
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:16 PM
Nov 2021

to hate themselves due to CRT or anything else are of course lies.

I would venture to guess it has NEVER happened, actually.

Caliman73

(11,742 posts)
4. I agree that this likely never happens.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:20 PM
Nov 2021

I can however, personally attest to REGULARLY thinking I was going to Hell after 11 years of Catholic School.

I actually had some really good teachers who were priests and sisters who were not of the hellfire and damnation school of thought, but being taught about the corrupted nature of "man", the 7 deadly sins, and other paths to hell certainly makes an impact on a young person's psyche.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
8. It is not made up and never happened as you claimed in another thread
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:28 PM
Nov 2021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16012839

A DUer found the a video about a class in WA that did this.

But I have no idea how widespread it is and to what extend do the teachers experiment with the privilege is another story.
 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
2. Funny, I was a kid when I rejected the concept of original sin thrust on me from sunday school
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:20 PM
Nov 2021

and catholic parents.

Made it easier to reject the concept of original sin in regards to the color of my skin.

malaise

(269,144 posts)
9. We have a family friend - a very accomplished woman
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:33 PM
Nov 2021

She asked the nuns at the school if she could be an angel in the Christmas play - the nun said tut tut child have you ever seen a black angel.
She told that story to everyone for the rest of her life. Fuck their sensibilities - the leaders of all institutions have all done enough damage to minorities with their racist sense of entitlement. You know what makes my example worse. She grew up in a country where we were and are the majority.

soldierant

(6,903 posts)
19. Yes, you're right, they hadn't.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 05:43 PM
Nov 2021

I am very grateful to and appreciative of Thomas Blackshear for the inroads he has made. But so much more is needed. And, while education helps, we are not going to get very far as long as people can opt their kids out of the truth.

malaise

(269,144 posts)
21. Blackshear clearly read the teachings of Marcus Garvey
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 06:19 PM
Nov 2021

I have no religion and no gods but Garvey told Africans at home and abroad that their images must look like them

malaise

(269,144 posts)
22. Blackshear clearly read the teachings of Marcus Garvey
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 06:19 PM
Nov 2021

I have no religion and no gods but Garvey told Africans at home and abroad that their images must look like them

hatrack

(59,592 posts)
17. But somebody from outside does make us pay for them . . .
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 04:52 PM
Nov 2021

Since churches pay no taxes, money for the services they receive has to come from somewhere to balance municipal budgets.

That "somewhere", of course, is all of us.

Haggard Celine

(16,847 posts)
7. That's when you say, 'honey, we're Calvinists, so
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:25 PM
Nov 2021

you're either born to go to Heaven or born to go to Hell. There's nothing you can do about it, either, so you might as well grab all you can in life, no matter who it hurts. If you accumulate a lot of stuff, that means God favors you, and you'll go to Heaven. If you're nice to everyone and still end up poor, it means you're going to Hell. So figure it out!'

Haggard Celine

(16,847 posts)
12. The hardcore ones don't.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 02:58 PM
Nov 2021

I have relatives who are Primitive Baptists, which I know is repetitious, but they see no point in evangelism. Another term for them is "hardshell Baptists." Anyway, they don't even allow accompaniment while they sing in church, no piano or organ. I don't know what rule it would be breaking to have an instrument, but they frown on that. Some of the Puritans were Calvinists, I've been told.

But back to your original question, some Calvinists have spread their religion in the past, but they had complex reasons for doing so, reasons I probably am too much of a heathen to ever understand. Most of the ones I've known, however, wouldn't try to evangelize any more than I would try to explain my favorite book to my cat.

wnylib

(21,557 posts)
20. All of the New England Puritans were Calvinists.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 05:48 PM
Nov 2021

The MA Bay Colony Puritans in America called themselves Congregationalists. They did not have any musical instruments for their "services," which they called "meetings." The only singing that they allowed was the Psalms. Since they did not have a formally unified structure for their churches, they varied a bit in their practices from one congregation to another, but as a whole, they had zero tolerance for any other religious groups like Baptists or other Calvinists like Presbyterians. People of other religious groups were forced out of the New England colonies or imprisoned, especially Baptists and Quakers. Quakers who persisted in preaching their own faith were mutilated as punishment. If they persisted after that, they were executed by hanging.

New England Puritans had missionaries among the Native inhabitants because they believed that they had to expose people to their teachings as preparation for God's grace in the event that God might choose to save any of them.

As the Puritan congregations and influence declined, and as their descendants spread westward into North America, many descendants joined other denominations in the Calvinist tradition e.g. Presbyterian and Baptist.
Churches today that have the word "Reformed" in their name are Calvinist. Several others that are not directly descended from the early Calvinist denominations follow several Calvinist teachings.

Haggard Celine

(16,847 posts)
23. Thanks for the information about the Puritans.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 06:45 PM
Nov 2021

Some of that is coming back to me from history I read years ago. They were some intolerant bastards, that's for sure! It's one thing to keep your religion separate and not really share it with other people, like my relatives do. Hell, I wish more religious people were like that, in some ways. But going after people of other religions and chasing them out of the colony is another matter altogether. The Puritans weren't looking to found a land of tolerance, though. They wanted territory for themselves that would be under their control.

If I believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, I suppose I would have to be a Calvinist, too. But I don't think God, or any other spirits are any of those things. I think that's just too impossible for my mind to comprehend. My relatives would say that I would believe it if He (or It) had revealed himself or itself to me. Maybe so. I guess one day I'll find out if I'm a sheep or a goat. Or something else.

wnylib

(21,557 posts)
26. My history classes didn't cover
Thu Nov 4, 2021, 10:00 AM
Nov 2021

the details of Puritan beliefs and practices. I read up on it when I discovered, through genealogy, that one of my grandparents had several ancestors who were Puritans in the MA and CT colonies. Some were deacons and a few were ministers. I hadn't known about that until doing the genealogy search.

Like most American kids, I'd been taught, too, that those Puritans came to America for religious freedom, but they were, as you said, actually looking for a place to establish their own exclusive religious community for themselves. Initially, the MA Bay Colony was run like a theocracy, where only church elders were eligible to be civil magistrates and only full church members were allowed to vote for them. That was the Calvinist model that had developed in Geneva, Switzerland.

The only religious freedom in NE back then was in Rhode Island, under Roger Williams, after he left MA Bay.

Ironically, it was the British crown that enforced religious freedom in MA and CT. The soldiers that they sent to the colonies for protection from the French were members of the C of E. When Puritan colonists refused to allow C of E churches or services for the soldiers, the British ordered them to.

But Calvinists are just one branch of Protestantism and Protestants are just one branch of Christianity. Not all follow those literalist doctrines. Also, two of the most liberal Christian denominations in the US today had their origins in Calvinism, but no longer teach the predestination of their ancestors or interpret the Bible literally.

Those early Puritans remind me of modern literalists and evangelicals who think that the "End Times" or "Rapture" are imminent. The Puritans of NE believed that the European "discovery" of America was divinely ordained as a forerunner to the return of Jesus. They believed that it was their mission to conquer or convert all of America to prepare for it. To them, America was the new Biblical Canaan and they believed that they had a new Covenant with God, like ancient Israel, to conquer America as the new Promised Land. That was the first notion of Manifest Destiny, long before it became the motivation (excuse) for conquering the "Wild West" to the Pacific.

It's past time for American schools to teach the factual history of the nation instead of the myths. In order to mature as a nation and democracy, we need to sort fact from fiction in our development.

Haggard Celine

(16,847 posts)
27. I absolutely agree with that.
Thu Nov 4, 2021, 10:29 AM
Nov 2021

If Americans had a better understanding of the Puritans and their mission here, it would help them spot current groups who have similar ideologies, like the Dominionists we are dealing with today.

We have a large number of people in the U.S. today who would love to establish a theocracy and purge the unbelievers. They mostly operate under the radar in our politics, but I think that needs to change.

Dominionists and their sympathizers have been slowly gaining power in our government for years, and it's past time for the rest of us to raise the alarm and alert everyone about what they're doing and what their plans are. Many of them are ultra-conservative Catholics as well as various RW Protestant sects.

It would be a lot easier to explain what these people are doing if our people had a more complete knowledge of our history. Now would be a good time to start teaching them. It might already be too late.

wnylib

(21,557 posts)
28. Totally agree about the Dominionists.
Thu Nov 4, 2021, 10:52 AM
Nov 2021

There's a Dominionist minister of a Calvinist church in my community who seems to be more dedicated to politics than to his church. He is narrow-minded, racist, anti immigration, anti LGBTQ, anti feminist, and generally just vile. He was an early advocate for the Tea Party in 2010.

Americans would understand the Bill of Rights, Constitution, and evolution from colonies to an independent nation much better if they learned the full history of our origins and development. Secular government and freedom of religion evolved out of our own experiences in America as well as past experiences in Britain. But I think it might not have happened at all if it had not been for the Enlightenment period at the time of the nation's birth.

There is so much that we could learn about who we have been, who we are, and who we want to be as a nation from a full, honest understanding of our history and origins.

Wednesdays

(17,398 posts)
29. My sister married into the Church of Christ
Thu Nov 4, 2021, 12:05 PM
Nov 2021

which also don't include musical instruments during worship.

Their reasoning was that they wanted to emulate Christians of the First Century, and since musical instruments were never mentioned in the New Testament, they omit their use.

Haggard Celine

(16,847 posts)
30. Thanks, that's an idea I haven't heard.
Thu Nov 4, 2021, 01:46 PM
Nov 2021

Maybe that's why the Primitive Baptists don't use them, too. They do call themselves "primitive" after all. When I was a kid, I thought they had church in a hut, like Gilligan's Island. "It's primitive as can be."

unblock

(52,285 posts)
13. I never felt bad about myself learning about slavery because I didn't identify with the slavers
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 03:05 PM
Nov 2021

My white skin notwithstanding, I always had empathy for the enslaved, and none for the slavers. I could imagine myself enslaved, but I could never imagine myself enslaving others.

Besides. If they do for some reason identify with the slavers, we'll, they should feel bad about that portion of our history. That's an appropriate response to a rotten part of our history.

barbtries

(28,809 posts)
14. that is good.
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 03:52 PM
Nov 2021

going way back i recall my best friend, a catholic, telling me she was a murderer because she hated her brother. we couldn't have been more than 10 years old

Response to TomDaisy (Original post)

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