Did Democrats make a mistake by tying the infrastructure bill together with the BBB bill?

[panader0]

The infrastructure bill was bi-partisan and would have passed and perhaps created momentum.
I understand that the reason to tie them was because the BBB bill was much less popular with R's.
But it would have been a win to pass the one bill, and created jobs, etc. that could have helped
with Biden's numbers and maybe Virginia.

[The Magistrate]

1. Unfortunately No, Sir

If the so-called 'bipartisan bill' were passed today, neither Manchin nor Sinema would vote for the bill Democrats want. Tying the two together is the only possible leverage on these two extortionist turncoats. We don't get what we want, you don't get what you want.

Fuck these people.

[panader0]

4. It's looking more and more that Manchin and Sinema won't vote for it anyway.

They seem to control the leverage. There have been multiple concessions to them and each time
they demand more. They are not Democrats.

[brooklynite]

12. How's that "extortion" working out?

[The Magistrate]

15. Please Clarify, Sir

The extortion being practiced by Manchin and Sinema seems to be working for them.

[FoxNewsSucks]

16. It sure is,

and it is working mightily AGAINST the people and the good of the country. Despite doing Moscow Mitch's work for him, they still receive regular tongue baths from some.

One can only wonder about why anyone on a Democratic site would so vociferously support such anti-American behavior from any elected Democrat.

[jimfields33]

18. This site says we cannot bash democratic politicians

[FoxNewsSucks]

20. They could refrain from gleefully cheerleading anti-democratic behavior.

Purposeless insulting and bashing should be prohibited. So should supporting republicons and those whose work can't be distinguished from republicons. Criticizing republicons, republicon policy, and anyone who works to advance republicon policy should be allowed.

Certain cheerleaders here don't have to criticize if they don't want to, but it's a shameful look to run around the board supporting someone who:
-Blocks minimum wage hikes
-Protects billionaires and their fortunes at the expense of the poor
-Campaigns for republicon candidates instead of the Democrat in the race
-Protects corporate tax breaks
-Protects corporate liability
-Blocks needed climate action
-Protects corporate price gouging
etc etc etc

[doc03]

23. It is done every day depends on who it is. A post I made a few months ago about Senator Sanders was

hidden though?

[brooklynite]

26. I DON'T support it...neither do I pointlessly rant against it.

Manchin and Sinema support the Infrastructure Bill. The SenTe passed the Infrastructure Bill. The House could approve the Infrastructure Bill and the President could sign it. Holding the Infrastructure Bill hostage to BBB is accomplishing nothing.

[The Magistrate]

29. Flat Question, Sir

Do you honestly believe that if the 'infrastructure' stand-alone is passed, that Manchin and Sinema will then vote for the Democrat's bill backed by President Biden, in any recognizable form?

I do not. I wouldn't trust either's word any farther than I could throw one of them, which is not nearly so far as it once was.

[Demsrule86]

42. I don't think it will matter one bit. Pass what we can and hope we survive for more. This way we get

nothing. Also, I do believe a cheaper BBB will pass... but don't hold the infrastructure bill hostage...it won't work anyway.

[Demsrule86]

43. How about with Manchin and Sinema, we have no majority? That is a fact and why all the hostage

taking of the infrastructure bill won't work. I don't think either care about any bill firstly and secondly, we have no leverage over either of them, we need them. And if we don't pass at least one bill, we get nothing. We will lose the midterms and maybe the reelection. That is what I think.

[Act_of_Reparation]

19. For them?

Pretty good, it would seem.

[Demsrule86]

44. What makes you think that either Manchin or Sinema care one bit about either bill?

[The Magistrate]

48. Both Have Said They Want The 'Bipartisan' Farce To Pass, Ma'am

Holding out on that is the only leverage available.

Manchin wants to be seen a 'good Democrat' in his Appalachian state, and to be that 'good Democrat' he has to oppose what all those bad DC liberal socialist democrats want to do.

Sinema I do not attempt to explain. In office she is doing the dead opposite of what she claimed she'd do in her campaign, and in previous political endeavors for many years. While she does, she seems to be rolling in money donated by persons she was spitting at just a couple of years ago.

[PoliticAverse]

2. "the BBB bill was much less popular with R's." - no Republicans support the BBB bill...

that's beyond "less popular".

No jobs would have been likely created in the short time between the BIF bill passage and the election.

Are there any polls showing any voters or potential voters really cared about the BIF bill?

[Fiendish Thingy]

3. No they didn't make a mistake- it's the only thing that has kept the BBB alive. Nt

[panader0]

5. Is it still alive? It's been reduced from 3.5 T to 1.5 T and there's still no agreement

from Manchin and Sinema. I saw the photo of them huddling with McConnell and don't
think they are working with us but against us.

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. Only because we kept giving away the house

If we trimmed a modest amount from BBB and put it in front of Manchinema, daring them to vote against the bill and against the agenda of President Biden and the vast majority of Democrats, it would have forced their hands.

As the anti-progressives have repeatedly said on this board, Manchinema is actually loyal to Biden, so stop being mean to them

[lagomorph777]

14. Rather than trimming it down, we need to put in some pork for SineManchin's donors.

Something that's win-win, such as subsidies for fossil fuel companies to convert to being renewable energy suppliers.

Also huge amounts for Pharma to send vaccines and other key drugs to 3rd-world countries.

SineManchin will get their cut, pad their retirement accounts, and vote for it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. Cheapest thing is to pay $20 million

And just buy Joe Manchin's dirty coal company Enersystem so he can finally be happy.

[Demsrule86]

39. We do what we can and come back later...surely you don't think nothing would be better?

[wellst0nev0ter]

46. *Stares in Obamacare*

[LonePirate]

7. No. A jobs bill would have made no difference in VA.

VA turned red due to Youngkin's lies about education and McAuliffe's inattention to local issues. The off-year effect of voting against the party in power may have also had an impact.

Virginia's economy is doing quite well and so a jobs bill would not have resonated very much. McAuliffe could have run on his own record and won more votes, provided of course he was more careful with his words during debates.

[panader0]

9. Tim Kaine said that Democratic infighting cost Terry the election.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216012750

[FoxNewsSucks]

17. He's wrong. We can see which two are the problem,

every other Democrat is ready to pass it. Put the blame where it belongs.

[Demsrule86]

38. He is right.

[boston bean]

8. Yes

[Bettie]

10. Only if you never, ever want the BBB bill to actually pass

because Manchin and Sinema don't want anything that will help human beings to be passed.

[panader0]

11. I agree with your assessment of Manchin and Sinema.

so therefore, the BBB is fucked. Of course we want it passed, but McConnell doesn't
and those two answer to him it seems.

[panader0]

13. I think that the BBB will fail because of S and M.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong. If it does, the result will be very bad for Democrats.
It will be called a failed agenda and Biden's numbers will continue to tank.

[MoonlitKnight]

21. It was all supposed to be one bill

But Manchin and Sinema wanted to do a separate bill to get Republicans on board. That was the mistake. It resulted in what is a bad bill if passed by itself. And months of delay before we even got to the stand-off of the past two months or so.

[Chille]

28. I think the bad bill

is going to pass alone

[Demsrule86]

35. The infrastructure bill is not a 'bad' bill, there are good things in it.

[Chille]

41. It was referred to as

the bad bill by the poster so that’s why I referred to it that way

[Lettuce Be]

22. No

This was the only way both bills get through.

[panader0]

24. I'll believe it when I see it.

No bill has been passed yet, despite your use of the past tense.

[Demsrule86]

36. No, this will get nothing through...the leverage wasn't there and it never will be...

We need to pass what we can period.

[Nixie]

25. Yes, it was a mistake. Look at the candidates who lost

the most recent national elections and they were the social spending candidates, whether they like to hear it or not, that is reality. Like it or not, Manchin and Sinema obviously knew they were on solid ground with their objections based on the electorate rejecting heavy social spending. Manchin even said to go elect more progressives if you want their policies.

The BIF is great for the American people, too. No need to hold it up like this and create this kind of doubt about Democrats running government.

[Silent3]

30. Manchin and Sinema are full of shit, not on solid ground

Most voters love the stuff that was in the big $3.5T original BBB bill, and as long as the rich and big corporations were paying for it (AS THEY SHOULD), the general American public doesn't give a flying fuck about "heavy social spending"... unless they forget about the benefits for themselves, and let some demagogue whip them into a frenzy over SOCHULIZMS!!11!!

The only solid ground Manchin and Sinema stand on is mountains of rich donor cash.

[Nixie]

31. Bernie did not make it through a Democratic primary

and that is who they are publicly targeting in their war of words,* although Sinema has gone silent. “Most voters love the stuff,” but that’s not how they’ve voted. You can hear it in Manchin’s comments how he’s carved out his position(s). It’s very obvious his focus on heavy social spending comes from a calculated position.

* there was at least one very public spat that was on my news channel MSNBC between Manchin and Bernie.

[Demsrule86]

37. It should have been passed in September and may McAuliffe would have won if we had.

[Demsrule86]

32. Yes they did. They tried to use it as leverage which won't work and makes us look bad.

The bill has passed the Senate and the House needs to pass it tonight. In my opinion, this already cost us, Virginia.

[In It to Win It]

33. I don't think so. I understand why they did it. It was the only leverage they had.

The infrastructure bill IMO is a watered down bill, which I'm sure was intentional to attract Republicans.

Considering that House Dems wouldn't have had any leverage, I think BBB bill would have been more watered down than it already is or it wouldn't have had a chance to pass at all. They knew they weren't gonna get any GOP support for the BBB bill so the only option was to tie it with the infrastructure bill if they wanted it to pass.

The bills still have the potential for improving Biden's numbers. Biden has time to improve his popularity but the Virginia Democrats didn't. Had we passed the infrastructure, it's possible that Terry McAuliffe would be on his way to the governor's mansion but we will never know. Dems could have passed the infrastructure bill and Terry McAuliffe still could have lost.

I don't think it was mistake. We lost a governorship but the battle continues. We have to ensure we put points on the board for next year's midterms sooner rather than later.

[JoanofArgh]

34. Yes, they did.

[Blaukraut]

40. No! And the gaslighting that's going on here on DU to pretend otherwise is gross

There are two bad actors in this frigging game: Manchin and Sinema. That's it. They've made demands. Everyone else gave in. Once the demands were met, S and M moved the goalposts. Over and over again. Those goalposts are now outside of the stadium, in one of the overflow parking lots.

As an aside: The Dems and Biden could have passed $4k/month per person per month indefinitely and the elections would still have turned out the way they did because people don't vote because of what you did for them, but because of what they're afraid of what you/someone else MIGHT do TO them.

[panader0]

45. It doesn't really matter that it was only Manchin and Sinema.

By themselves they are able to sink the BBB bill. Hell, probably just one of them could do it.
The Dems need every Senator's vote, all 50 D's and Harris.

[The Magistrate]

47. Your Closing Point, Ma'am, Is Distressingly Apt

[Celerity]

50. +10000000000000000

[Celerity]

49. no nt