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Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:02 PM

 

So in reality where are we when in comes to incarceration and justice.

I see constant promotion of ending cash bail, alternatives to the police and alternatives to incarceration. These are major think planks and policies of our party. They are promoted through books, speeches and the more progressive members of congress. They are celebrated here at DU with passionate screeds.

Then one of these misunderstood criminals does something criminal on tape and all of a sudden it is death penalty this, where were the police that and why was he out on bail?

So which is it. Do we get rid of cash bail, incarceration and defund the police. Or do we allow emotion to get in the way of social justice?

I am not saying which is the right answer, but it would be helpful if there was some sort of consistency. We can't cry racial justice one minute and shoot the shoplifters or no bail for someone beating his girlfriend nearly to death the next minute.

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Reply So in reality where are we when in comes to incarceration and justice. (Original post)
cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 OP
ananda Nov 2021 #1
janterry Nov 2021 #2
Klaralven Nov 2021 #3
Torchlight Nov 2021 #4
Journeyman Nov 2021 #6
ripcord Nov 2021 #5
TheRealNorth Nov 2021 #9
thatdemguy Nov 2021 #7
Tomconroy Nov 2021 #8
Thunderbeast Nov 2021 #10
TheRealNorth Nov 2021 #11
Caliman73 Nov 2021 #12
ripcord Nov 2021 #13
Caliman73 Nov 2021 #15
cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 #19
Caliman73 Nov 2021 #21
cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 #14
Caliman73 Nov 2021 #16
cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 #18
Amishman Nov 2021 #17
ripcord Nov 2021 #20

Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:03 PM

1. Not in a good place.

Understatement for the depths of hell.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:05 PM

2. Middle ground

 

n/t

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:08 PM

3. We should speed up the courts

 

Bail wouldn't be an issue if cases were tried and adjudicated in two or three weeks.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:14 PM

4. "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions

...their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
― Oscar Wilde, De Profundis

I don't think a measured consistency can be expected from so many different people on a message board with thousands of users and in a world with so few absolutes.

Take issue with the person holding an opinion certainly, but assigning a collective opinion to an entire message board and holding it to that standard appears to be spitting in the wind.

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Response to Torchlight (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:19 PM

6. Great post. Thanks for the Wilde quote. I'm certain to remember & use that for years to come . . .

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:15 PM

5. A backlash against many of those policies is beginning

People want to be understanding and compassionate but they are also tired of the crime. It is going to be harder and harder to find sympathy for people who are taking advantage of the alternatives and committing crimes assuming they will get lighter sentences.

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Response to ripcord (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:59 PM

9. This

There is a true criminal element that is taking advantage of the situation, and perhaps young kids that are learning that there is no real penalty.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:34 PM

7. I have family in New York

Who are extremely upset about the catch and release thats happening up there. To the point one said to me on the phone, the democrats here are turning in the party of allowing crime and letting the criminals to go free. It turned into an ugly phone call.

Another who just retired, is moving out of state solely due to the crime, she has lived in new york for 50 years, and she says its never been this bad. She is blaming the De Blasio and everyone around him.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 01:35 PM

8. Generally the federal system avoids cash bail. They evaluate

Whether a defendant is a flight risk or 'dangerous'. If not the court will generally set terms of some kind for release which can involve some sort of bond, particularly for persons of means. The system favors release except for serious drug offenses for some reason.
My experience is that cash bail is something of a racket.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 02:10 PM

10. Emily Bazelon has a great piece in the NYT Magazine

She does a deep dive into criminal justice reforms being implemented in Los Angeles and other places.

The arguments for reforms in sentencing are based on data-driven analysis of actual outcomes for public safety. Longer sentences (especially for juvenile offenders) do not necessarily lead to safer communities.

Very interesting read.

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Response to Thunderbeast (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 02:26 PM

11. But I worry that there may be factors that are not accounted for in a statistical model

Especially when it comes to human behavior.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 02:28 PM

12. The problem is that people react with their emotions.

What the person did in Wisconsin is horrific and a lot of innocent lives were lost and injured. There is information about a criminal history that includes violence against people, and that this person was let out on bail. That causes some of the "string him up" rhetoric.

The difficulty is that 1. The cash bail system is ridiculous and benefits people with resources while allowing low level, non-violent offenders to languish in jail waiting for a trial in a court system that is backed up and not responsive. While there would likely be problems with a Risk Assessment type of scheme for determining release prior to trial, it might be preferable to the current system. If the information about the suspect is true, there would have been no reason to release him because it looks like he posed a threat to the community.

Because the slogan of "Defund the Police" was so poorly conceived, it is difficult to even have an honest conversation about it. Add to that, people's fear of "crime" and people's short attention span and I am not sure what can be said. Defunding the police is a longer term project and does not simply involve ending funding for police services. It entails an investment into social services, job creation, community building, housing, mental health and SUD services and others that are meant to address the factors that contribute to criminal activity, instead of relying on police to respond to crime after the fact. There are a wider variety of opinions on how it would look, and yes, there are some who just want to abolish police. Those people should not be taken seriously as that would be such a drastic change that there would be significant problems created by the action. As services are funded and there is success in getting people off the streets, into homes, into jobs, in treatment for MH and SUD, and there is a sense of community that is developed, the thinking is that the need for more and more police on the streets, will decline and the savings on the Police budgets can be reinvested into the communities.

Emotion is always going to interfere in some way into these situations. That is how humans are hardwired. The goal is hopefully to mitigate the impact that emotions, bias, and prejudices have on our decision making.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 03:32 PM

13. The problem is that these changes were sold to the public as a way to reduce crime

It is not only these major crimes but people are seeing an uptick in their everyday lives. Many criminals are taking advantage of these changes and committing crimes knowing the penalties aren't going to be as serious.

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Response to ripcord (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 05:02 PM

15. There have been no real changes.

I have not seen any significant effort to actually address the systemic problems that facilitate crime. I have seen some sentencing reductions, but no real funding put into prevention programs.

Of course you are going to see increases if 90% plus of the problem is not dealt with.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 05:29 PM

19. This becomes a true communism has never been tried exercise.

 


I remember poverty in the seventies and eighties.... It is nothing like that today.

People who are criminals today simply seem to be that amoral few that prey on society. We do ourselves no favors ignoring them.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 06:34 PM

21. It only becomes that conversation if you frame it that way.

I remember the crack epidemic and gang violence in the 80's and 90's, too. Crime, despite a recent spike, has been trending down decade after decade.

There are still criminals who are pathological, but most crime is crime of desperation.

Why would we ignore ANY of it. Social welfare programs can help the majority of people who need jobs, housing, etc.. and the police can focus on "those amoral few that prey on society".

When the police budget of each city is 10 to 15 times larger than any type of prevention programs or any programs that address the root causes that facilitate crime, you aren't trying to stop crime, you are just reacting to it.

There is a place for police in society but if all you have is a hammer, then all the problems become nails.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 04:56 PM

14. Housing prices in plaes like the Upper East side are soft as a direct result of policies like

 

no bail.

Regular people simply do not put up with criminality and related shenanigans.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 05:05 PM

16. Upper East side of what? What is the specific policy?

Who advocated for releasing people with no type of bail or monitoring?

The problem is that cash bail disproportionately affects poor people. There is a lot of room between letting people out OR and keeping them locked up for months waiting their trial because they can't afford to pay for their freedom.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 05:26 PM

18. NYC.

 

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 05:10 PM

17. bail needs to start low for first offense and/or minor offenses - and escalate quickly

waiving cash bail makes perfect sense for a first time offender with a non-violent offense.

Repeat offenders or those accused of violent acts should find it much harder (or be denied) walking free to await trial.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Nov 22, 2021, 06:07 PM

20. We need to decide if the criminal or the victim is more important

I personally think we should worry more about the victims but I seem to be in the minority, once cases are closed no one cares about the victim anymore. Maybe we should spend less on the criminals and more making their victims whole after because we know the odds on them ever recovering anything from the criminals are laughable.

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